Change the ability to raise dead from PVP

[Sankis]

While there's a system in place for finality in a PVP encounter, DMs are not always available to oversee it and not all conflict can wait.

You may be take victory in a battle against a longtime foe and decide it's time to end their life only there's no DM around. Sure, you can lug the body around and hide it but it's often impractical when all you really want to do is make sure your enemy won't return the next day. There's a certain discouragement that comes from the ability to have your enemies returned to life for only 1500 coin. This discouragement is only amplified when playing outside of the city and your enemies have the backing of Sanctuary.

For a setting where a defining aspect is the last bastion of humanity (and friends) and the Gods are very busy trying to not die it seems silly that raising is so accessible and cheap.

My suggestion is this:

Allow PVP Raises but increase the cost. Gold is extremely prevalent in this setting with many PCs acquiring more than 10,000 coin in a lifespan. Increase the cost from 1,500 to 2,000 per cast to 6,000 or more.
PVP raises inflict full 1/3 XP loss

or just remove them outright and/or require DM approval for it.

[Ironside]

I would chime in to say the ability to chunk 1500 gp or so and wash away a death is also unique to Sanctuary PCs in-game, which really puts a damper on PCs who are looking to oppose the law and so on. It isn't very encouraging to watch a hard earned victory (just the logistics of nicking someone from the Shield can be harrowing oftentimes) effectively flushed down the toilet by a PvP raise.

It's very immersion breaking as well to see trains of dead PCs post-event or post-fight being dragged off to be resuscitated because Oghma has some sort of open door policy regarding the souls of the departed. When a dramatic scene plays out, and a beloved friend is cut down in front of someone by a wicked villain and hated foe, the first IC reaction shouldn't just be "We'll bring back his body and get him raised!". It massacres the tension in a big way.

I really don't want to turn this into a finger pointing blame game, but I see PCs say things to that effect all of the time lately and it's really just... lame.

When we cheapen death like this, it really makes the setting feel fake and flimsy. Imagine if when Commander Simms went down slaying the Appetite, someone just carted him off into an Oghman shrine and magic'd him all better. It's essentially the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale.

Personally, I advocate removing the ability to raise someone from FD unless a DM is present and gives the "OK".  Anything else just feels like gaming the system.

[The Old Hack]

Possibly the rule should be that any PvP raise requires DM approval. The DM in question may then, even if approving it, levy additional requirements. Extra gold cost is just one possibility. The Oghman might ask for the recovery of some relic or need a rare component. Or some manner of quest could be demanded of the person raised. The more famous/notorious the raised person, the more steeply the price might rise.

Example: Tiragon the level 5 paladin, a fairly new arrival that has been around for a couple of weeks, stumbles on a PvP situation. The opposition is in a bad mood and just cuts him down. He doesn't even get to RP much. The DM takes pity on him and allows revival without much in the way of extra cost.

Example two: Director Kassar Magnifico meets his archenemy the vile drow Cza'neela Pho'teen. Both have henchmen along. After a dramatic battle the Director is cut down. The DM says "Tough luck, Kassar, looking forward to the screenshot thread."

Example three: Dirk the Dauntless, Hero of the Underdark, is on a daily patrol. A gank squad of his enemies stumble on him and wipe him out en passant. While they are celebrating their victory, a rogue friend of Dirk's steal the body from under their noses. The DM allows revival but says that it will cost six thousand gold and requires Dirk to recover the Tome of Revelations from the Lost Library of Lanthis, currently believed to be used as a doorstop by the Dread Master Zazzin in its den in Traensyr.

Of course a DM might not always be available but exactly in this sort of case it might be better to have the raise be delayed until a DM can take a look at it. The body can't get any deader in the meantime, after all.

[I love cats]

Agree and disagree. If a Pc IC cut pff the head/fucked up the corpse then a PVP raise was always negated on EFU. If a person was killed and you emoted anything on the corpse you IG need a true raise.

However if the person doing the FF didn't bother to do an emote or sabotsge the corpse. I think an FD raise should be permitted.

[EventHorizon]

I'm of the same mind as I love cats on this one. I think the gold cost for raises is alright (I like the idea of playing a PC who very deliberately does their best to ensure that preparations are made for their raise and continued survival, necessitating gold), I think the EXP loss is alright (never experienced it firsthand in this particular instance, but that's my opinion), I think it's good that it's available in general, and I generally like that it doesn't require a DM, because I like player initiative/freedom.

That said, like I love cats is suggesting, I think giving killers (Good or Evil :}) the ability to take their kill to another level and desecrate the corpse or make it more difficult to raise would be the best way to balance this issue.

Although you could pick up a body and drag it at Heavy Encumbrance to a trash can (in the Underdark. It is possible, however insanely difficult it is), that's really unfeasible and not logical as an IC action. So, perhaps there could be a couple options for corpse butchery. For example, as ILC pointed out, cutting off a head or butchering limbs (which would become items in the inventory) would necessitate a Resurrection, which is still possible IG but not as automatically as an NPC Raise Dead.

If we have that, then players who want their Killer PC to simply slay their enemies can leave the bodies to the fates (and the mercy of other PCs), at the risk of them being Raised, OR if they're really sensitive about it and need to be thorough (for reasons other than griefing, I trust) then they can also take a head and bring -that- to a campfire to incinerate/cook and eat. (I'd advise that if this act is committed against a non-Evil PC, it warrants automatic, system-granted Evil points, but that's a side-note.)

Addendum:

And I would extremely caution against all the differing possible reasons why this PC gets a Raise Dead but this one might not, if you go with a rule of "PVP raise deads always need DM approval." It'll get SO murky and conflicted, it'll be a bloody mess, pun intended. If you go with a mechanically-supported head-taking/body desecration/butchery Player Tool that requires the target corpse to be Resurrected rather than Raise Dead, then the only way to bring that PC back would be by somehow procuring a Resurrection item or calling on a very, very powerful NPC (no PCs ever get to level 13, Circle 7, for the Resurrection spell). That does require a DM, but it's based in something more tangible and plot-related, rather then an abstract judgment like "Oh well it was just a ganksquad, so I guess that raise can cost 6000 instead and it's okay." - And it's also a hell of a lot less likely to ever happen.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

I agree with this:

"It's very immersion breaking as well to see trains of dead PCs post-event or post-fight being dragged off to be resuscitated because Oghma has some sort of open door policy regarding the souls of the departed. When a dramatic scene plays out, and a beloved friend is cut down in front of someone by a wicked villain and hated foe, the first IC reaction shouldn't just be "We'll bring back his body and get him raised!". It massacres the tension in a big way.

I really don't want to turn this into a finger pointing blame game, but I see PCs say things to that effect all of the time lately and it's really just... lame.

When we cheapen death like this, it really makes the setting feel fake and flimsy. Imagine if when Commander Simms went down slaying the Appetite, someone just carted him off into an Oghman shrine and magic'd him all better. It's essentially the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale."

As well, I don't think we should be diluting the potential to be brought back to life to a single emote of "*cuts off the head*". When you toggle Full Death, it is a mechanic meant to represent your character's desire to actually kill his opponent. In most cases of PvP deaths that enjoy an "epilogue", I think that the intent of permanent death is very clear. However, in the chaos of larger and less managed battles where Full Death can be dished out amidst the scuffle, I think it is best for the players to use their better judgment and attempt to provide the best experience for everybody involved.

[Pandip]

There are a couple of issues to bring up here:

• If DM's are required to do resurrections for FD PvP deaths, what happens when a DM isn't readily available to oversee such when it's appropriate?
• Lame PvP deaths can sometimes be as prevalent as lame PvP resurrections, and the latter sometimes helps alleviate the former; i.e. FD's in the middle of combat.

The need for a DM to permanently end a PC isn't necessarily as prevalent as people think. PC's who are especially intent on killing their enemies tend to just bring them into Sanctuary or Lower or whatever off the beaten path faction headquarters their group is working from, which generally negates the need for a DM for head severing.

I think the narrative here is the biggest issue. I'd prefer if NPC resurrection was changed into something more akin to using powerful magic to bind one's wounds, careful resetting of the bones, smelling salts to bring them back to consciousness, thorough rest, a couple hours in a fast-healing baublium bed, etc. As it stands, it feels like NPC clerics are enacting their holy powers to bring back common plebs while PC clerics are required to undergo significant trials, require reagents, and so forth, to do the same thing, which isn't a very satisfying double-standard. NPC raises should feel like something tied to the NPC's resources, expertise, and prestige, rather than a divine miracle from a god that PC's aren't allowed to recreate.

If you want to do a daring assassination in the throes of Sanctuary with the intent of FDing a PC, consult a DM about the possibility of making the act permanent if you succeed. Otherwise, we're slipping into pretty murky territory when it comes to PC's having full control over whether or not their peers can be slain.

Perhaps it's just because I'm a scrub who doesn't engage in PvP as much as others do, but I don't feel like there are many instances of "lame" PvP resurrections. Parties that win PvP are given full reign over who lives and dies, barring a successful second attack from the Sanctuary mob. If you kill someone in combat but retreat, trade a corpse, or whatever other situation might relinquish control of a PC's body, you've more or less lost your ability to determine that PC's fate. And I don't think it'd be positive for this to change.

[Vaku]

Quoted from Rule 11)

Characters may not respawn from PvP, but can in some cases be raised - the DM team reserves the right to rule on whether Resurrection is required, or if the corpse is unavailable for being raised.

I think it simply should land with the player of the dead character to confirm whether or not his or her character's death is a final one. The same should also be said of the player that wants to raise the dead character.

There needn't be any lugging around corpses, hiding, or otherwise OOC means of preventing the Raise Dead spell.

There is already, as shown in the quoted ruling, a prevention for folks using the Fugue guy for respawning themselves.

If someone manages to collect the body for a raise, and inters the corpse at the mausoleum, until they get DM, why shouldn't a raise be acceptable? Merely await the ruling as the player of the dead character (probably offline & in IRC, so no one gets the idea they can raise you willy-nilly). Or, if you want to raise the body, just await a ruling.

I personally enjoy the thought of True Res always being on the table, so long as you have a portion of the remains from within 10yrs of that person's death. Moreover, animating PC bodies is also a fun thought.

I just tend to think these spells have a place in the game, and can be rp'd to good effect, and conversely can be rp'd in an unimpactful way (same as anything we deal with on the server: vendettas, pvp, dungeons, witnessing stunning things, etc.).

As an example: For all of Devo's deaths (who I think holds a record), someone has always had to confirm the raise, and it wasn't always me! Personally, I'm trying to have that play into his personality in some convincing way... then again, only PvP death was the Meeting of the Minds pvp, and that involved, from what I heard, a pretty decent heal check. Everyone else lugged back was ruled as too maimed. Knowing this IC'ly, I try to imbue him with some level of survivor's guilt, as well as an ambition that surrounds the notion of death.



Anyways, if the issue is a balance one, with Sanctuarians having options for Raise Dead, but not scummy people, there should perhaps be a cleric in the Temple of Hoar to allow lower folk to live out their final quarrel.

That's my two cents.