Modify Evards Black Tentacles to put in some sort of effective counter

[Softie]

Some folks were discussing this on IRC this morning and one pointed out that it was unlikely to have any effect to just discuss it on IRC.

The spell is incredibly powerful for a fourth level spell.  There is a long list of spells which were modified for balance reasons, how about Evards?

Even Phantasmal Killer, a fifth level death spell has two saves, Evards effectively has one and has a high chance to kill a large portion of the players on the server in one cast.  I posted this because I listened to the discussion and thought after  "You know, i've noticed a very large percentage of PVP ended the instant that spell was cast, maybe there is something to that..."  Every time I have seen it cast in PVP, the caster won, often taking out large groups of PCs.

Possibly make the stun effect blocked by protection to mind spells, or just clarity?  Require a reflex save and THEN a fortitude save?  Reflex to dodge the tentacles, fortitude to see if your meager body can resist their power.  Maybe make it a poison fort save instead?

Ideas?

[Pentaxius]

Just my humble opinion on this question :

PhK is a fourth level spell as well. but this is beyond the point raised.

The spell can be countered using :


1. Freedom of movement + Ghostly visage

2. True strike + high AB.


Despite those counters, the spell remains incredibly powerful in my opinion. It combines zone control, AoE paralysis and high damage.

In my old PnP campain, my DM made it so that only five tentacles could attack a single target at a given time. Furthermore, Evard caused a grapple attack with grapple consequences, not a complete paralysis if you failed a fort roll like it was implemented in NWN.  

I would suggest the following minor tweaks :

1. replacing the full paralysis with a root effect, similar to the one caused by entangle or web.

2. Making it so that only the first grapple attack of the tentacles can trigger the fortitude save paralysis after a successful hit. Currently, only one tentacle needs to hit in order to cause the paralysis save and this is repeated every round.

Inb4 ''All spells aren't supposed to be equal'' :)

[Howlando]

We've tweaked the spell considerably, nerfing it a lot while trying to keep it useful - I'm not really interested in lots of people who don't have a clear grasp of mechanics chiming in and voicing their opinion - that said the spell probably could be tweaked further. Replacing the paralysis with a root effect is actually an interesting idea, though.

[Mathamune]

Another thing to consider of this spell is that it will definitely end any ally support you may have against trying to attack targets caught in it, unlike the spell hold person. AoEs tend to be very situational. While powerful, it is one of the higher-end spells, and one of very few that is a real offensive threat in the spell level. The paralysis effect is excellent, but it isn't an impossible save. Like any other spell, it depends on what character you are attacking with it.

[VanillaPudding]

I'm rather in favor of that root effect or a short duration slow effect. The damage is quite fine and easily countered (for the most part) as it is. his small tweak would put it right in line with some evocations and be properly balanced I think.

[Blackthorn51]

I concur.  Changing it to a root or slow effect would do wonders for Balance.  As it currently stands, the spell is more or less an "I win button."

[Zoe]

As it currently stands, the spell is more or less an "I win button."

Until you drink your freedom + blur run right through that shit and beat down the caster. It's most certainly not an "I win" button.

That said, if anything, changing paralysis to slow seems reasonable.

[HungeringShadows]

Currently blur reduces the damage to a tiny amount. If you use stoneskin, so long as the DR remains you are ~immune~ to the paralysis effect of this spell. 70-100 damage reduction is more than enough to get out of this spells effect before it wrecks you.

BEFORE the change it was pretty crazy in that neither immunity, freedom, nor spell mantle would save you from it. But since the change simply having blur reduces the damage it deals drastically (to as little as 2 damage per tentacle at times)

Edit: After reading the initial post I'm also not certain if the OP realizes the spell has been changed in efu at all.

[Courteous Magocracy]

The spell is fine.

[lovethesuit]

It's a game changer, that's true. I like the idea of a root effect rather than paralysis. That said, not all spells are equal. I think it's okay for some spells to just be stronger than others.

Anyway, this is one that, even if weakened, people would use just for the aesthetic. And I'm not saying that the people who use this spell are perverts, certainly not that. There are plenty of completely legitimate reasons to tie someone down and beat them with massive black tentacles.

[trick_or_treat]

Good, ole Evard's, where have you gone to..

IMHO, this totally doesn't need to be nerfed more than it already was.
If I recall correct, even PfX protects from the Paralysis effect now (might be wrong here..) so it's a 20 gp worth counter.

Evard's is a useful spell, but it can be used only in a bunch of situations, really. Nothing really stops you from running as hell from the spot the caster is targetting, as soon as you see the animation.

Everytime someone dies from Evards in PvP, it turns into a discussion about nerfing the spell, again and again.

Too many counters, CHEAP counters, are available against this spell.

Leave it be, finally, as it's perfectly reasonable now, on someone who has GV on, the damage done is laughable.

And if you are really worried, have your buddies carry Remove Paralysis items, too, they are common and often left behind, and they are within a module for a reason.


Or maybe we should just remove this spell alltogether, it will save many people involved a headache!

[Jagged]

The paralysis is -very- short, and the spell does very little damage on clustered targets. Keep it as it is, I think. Entanglement is a -considerable- nerf on an already easily countered spell as entangled characters can easily drink a blur potion then just heal themselves under fire of other spells.

Remember that Evard's can also be dangerous for the caster.

[Caster13]

As it is, I think Evard's is comparable to other powerful evocation spells like fireball or ice storm: when you're on the wrong end of it, you either get totally flattened or you managed to somehow scrape through it.