Translation lore checks suggestion

[Wrexsoul]

I wrote this up for the translation lore check discussion thread in the Bug Reports forum, but it's better suited here, especially since it's a suggestion on its own. What do you guys think?

The only thing that annoys me with checks like these is the random nature of rolling a d20 to determine if you successfully translate the text or not. Being able to beat a DC 50 lorecheck theoretically is doable with dedication, but relying on a 5-10% chance to be able to do so per reset is pretty rough, since luck is, after all, a bitch.

Since this is DnD, I guess a roll is needed, but one solution I could see working nicely would be if success wasn't absolute. What if a DC 50 lore check instead had a DC of 30, but every point you beat the DC with would only reveal 5% of the text? So with a DC of 30, rolling 31 would only translate 5% of the words, rolling up a 40 would translate 50% of them, and only with a roll of 50 or more (the original DC), the full text would be translated? This would both lower the absolute luck requirement, -and- make things more interesting, since you could then use your own deduction skills, fun roleplay, logic and/or intelligence to interpret whatever incomplete translation you end up with, instead of having it all settled with a boring roll of the dice. It would also be a much more plausible rendition of the process of translating a foreign language; You don't mysteriously go from not understanding a word to getting a complete picture of a foreign text, you translate things word for word until you are knowledgable enough to understand it all.

Would something like this be implementable? Could be as simple as substituting the percentage of the words you fail to translate with "...", or something similar. Would be a genuinely awesome change, I think!

[Paha]

What I meant by dedication, is that there are those that have lore check high enough to quite easily succeed those checks.

This kind expertise on certain area can be achieved with time and dedication, and it for sure is possible.

This way you suggest would be nice as well, but it would not necessarily do that much for those with lower points anyway, and instead just make it easier for those guys with high checks already.

[Egon the Monkey]

I'm all for anything that makes it easier without having to have Legend Lore scrolls or a ton of gear. If we say the average scholar PC is L7, which is reasonable for most quests with big lore checks:

Let's start by assuming you're playing a proper scholar PC, and you've maxed out Lore. Your Lore can be 10 + Int (2-4) + SF (3) +Courteous Magocracy (2) +cunning (1-2)+ Secondary Lore (1-2 if you can afford it over Alchelmy/Herbalism on a scholar). So 13-23, excluding Int powerbuilds. Bardic Lore can give you up to +7 on that with bard levels, but that means you have to be a Bard.
Result is, most dedicated scholar PCs are kind of hosed on evn a DC35-40 check unless they have a bucket of loot or have thrown every feat and skillpoint into it. I reckon you can get about 5-7 extra points off quest loot too, but that still leaves you hanging when a lot of the interesting stuff is in QAs.

My suggestion would be this:
Give the Lore tablets a conversation option that says [transcribe the lettering], if your PC recognises the script on the first Lore check. If you choose that option, you get a copy of the text in the form of a "note" item you can try again to translate multiple times before "the paper gets smudged". I know that's possible, as DI had a note like this as DM loot once, containing an alchemical recipe.

Or just drop all the DC 30+ checks by 10-13 points. I know that one where the DCs keep going up to 50 was set before the Identify change, as I recall helping a PC translate it by passing him a Lore pot.

[Gippy]

Every check in the game has been translated.

That it takes some dedication is GOOD.

[putrid_plum]

even all the checks in the underdark?? interesting

[derfo]

I like the fact that it takes some real effort to uncover these secrets, it gives them worth and gives the lore skill a point. Having to brave danger with a high lore score instead of some generic combat power build sounds pretty good to me. If anything, there should be more higher DCs, as DC 50 seems perfectly reasonable if you consider all the ways you can get the lore skill up, even without identify.

[Wrexsoul]

For the record, I have never suggested that it should be -easier- to fully translate texts - Please don't derail the topic with suggestions about this. I'm suggesting a more dynamic translation system; The DC's can be fiddled around to the DM's liking, my numbers are just examples. The only way my way makes it easier is through a method requiring actual player deduction and logical thinking (by "guessing the blanks"). Additionally, you could never be certain you had translated it correctly without fully beating the DC, adding an additional thrill of uncertainty where the currently is none due to the black and white nature of translation rolls.

An example:

Lore check 50: "This is the tomb of Wrexsoul, in which fat loot can be found. If you wish to reach it, you must face north and read this text backwards five times and eat an apple."

Currently, if you roll 50, you get the entire message. If you roll 49 or below, you get nothing.

The way I propose, if you roll 50, you get the entire message.

If you roll 30 or lower, you get nothing of the message.

If you roll 31, you would see "... tomb ... face", giving you a slight hint of what you have found, but nearly nothing, anyway.

If you roll 40, you would get "This ... ... tomb of Wrexsoul, in which ... ... can be found. ... ... wish to ... ..., you ... face north ... read ... text ... ... ... and ... ... apple." Suddenly, you know that the tomb belongs to Wrexsoul, and that something can be found. Furthermore, with some logical thinking, you can guess that the text contains some kind of instructions.

If you roll 49, you might see "This is the tomb of Wrexsoul, in which fat loot can be found. If you wish to reach it, you must face north and read this text ... five times and ... an apple." Suddenly, rolling 1 lower than the ultimate DC, instead of getting the same result as a character with absolutely no lore (which is ridiculous since to roll a 49 you have a minimum of +29, probably higher), you can work out most of the text, and can then either experiment (fun) or logically deduce (fun) what steps to take to find the fat loot.

Additionally, let's say you have a very dedicated lore score; You have +35 from feats and items plus Fox' Cunning. You add a Legend Lore scroll, suddenly you have +48 lore. This is -very- high, and you had to waste an expensive consumable to reach it. Now you attempt to translate the text in question, and roll a 1. With the current method, even with +48 lore, you learn absolutely nothing. With my way, you get a much more fair result.

So basically, I'm not suggesting to make things -easier-, really, just more dynamic and interesting. You would still need to beat (or, very nearly beat) the DC to properly translate the text, but even if you roll below it, as long as you're close, you won't come out of it entirely empty handed. If 20 points is too much leeway, make it 10% per number, and 10 below the DC or something. As always, numbers can be tweaked.

So, what do you think?

[Egon the Monkey]

I'm speaking here most specifically about a certain very interesting Lore check in a certain quest that is locked on the number of repeats. That one IMO should be accessible to PCs with a good investment in Lore, simply because it's not guaranteed to turn up enough times to be translatable.

[TheImpossibleDream]

I don't see the harm in lowering the dc of some of the more mundane translated texts. I mean lets be honest here. There are several high dc translatable tablet that contain nothing but fluff, that while is nice to have, does not in any way shape or form help the identifier with anything.

I don't mind high DC lore checks if they actually lead to something useful.

What would be interesting is if there were some very useful arcane spells or enhancements to regular spells that could be discovered via these lore checks.

An example would be after translating a certain incredibly difficult tablet your Jump spell in addition to granting bonus tumble grants you a tool useable once that lets you "jump" to a certain area. it could play the fly animation and do a tumble check to make sure to jump spell is still in effect then teleport the player to the targeted location.

Anyway I'm going off on a tangent I fear!

Lower dc's good!

[ScottyB]

For what it's worth, this suggestion (progressive DCs going from partial information to complete information) is common in D&D.

Scripting it to omit random words by % would be a pain unless we change translations to go to your chat log instead of the pop-up dialog, but having different text on DC 30, 40 or 50 (and any degree of granularity in-between, really) wouldn't be hard. Then DMs can specifically omit certain words that make it easier or harder to guess.

[Mort]

It's possible... We'll see.