Spell Changes

[The Beggar]

Thanks Mort, that was my point exactly on BIH. One round knockdown only, no damage, affects everyone even allies for one spell slot isn't OP, it's useful.

Nerfing it to 14Str makes it not useful.

30 hide / 30 ms as minimum for any stealth build on efu is something I'd expect

True that. 30 is almost needed to do anything cool with MS/Hide, like...be a spy, sneak through wilds without getting instapwned, etc.

[The Answerman]

I hardly think that setting 30/30 stealth as your 'bar' is fair, as that includes a rather huge investment in feats, dexterity, and items, and pretty much destroys any combat capability your character has.  We've all seen the incredibly limited use that a stealth built rogue has on even the simplest of quests on EfU, as most quests either require decent saves (for prevention of poisons, spells), or have creatures that are immune to sneak attack.

[VanillaPudding]

Sadly it is and has been the bar. I've had characters with mid 40s in both scores (buffed) that still got detected daily by anyone with a -slight- investment in detection.

I've played Wizards that, without this new OP spell change, had about 15 listen skill. This is basically automatic detection and as Mort mentioned, the entire reason true sight isn't default.

As for "don't worry about rogues" - Well, the newest changes have flavor but use two skills that -most- rogues never invest in a and forces them to drop required skills (disable trap, hide, ms, listen, open lock, set trap, ect) in order to take HEAL....so that they can maybe see if they can maybe sneak by someone or pickpocket them.

[Caddies]

We're digressing, but it's really not that hard to reach into the 30s for stealth. When I played my rogue spy their Hide/MS was around 34/34 inside the city (City Slicker perk) and this was without any buffs. It was a combination of 18 Dex, three feats, and the proper gear.

Bailey was a L10 pure rogue with all the stealth feats and extremely good DM loot in nearly every slot. Let's not use her as evidence how easily it is to get good stealth please.

I'm not arguing that C&C shouldn't be adjusted, but I don't think it's so hard to get those kinds of stats as a full-classed rogue. Certainly being higher level helps, but don't forget to take full advantage of the C&C changes the diviner needs to be at least 7th level, and to have the "ideal" two Extended castings for an 8th level wizard with an 18 Int would mean two-thirds of their 4th level spell slots are already taken by this spell. A 17 or lower Int and they only get two 4th level slots. It's not as if every diviner will be able have this supposed "auto-detect" upon entering the PW. This is a far larger investment than is being represented, frankly.

Its not really, if you want to be protected. As a mage the only things that can kill you by surprise are stealthers who can track you at length until you are vulnerable (in distant areas with no allies with lingering buffs, etc). I know this because I have played a few very powerful wizards and this was my only concern because I had see invisible up 100% of the time (which is even easier now for Diviners with double duration See Invis...). On the flip side, I've also played a few assassin/stealther types of characters and I relied upon wizards not having good detection skills to stand much of a chance at getting to them properly.

Many times when playing my spy people would drink hearing or C&C potions as I was nearby, spying on them. Only once or twice did they actually see or hear them. The idea was to stay near some kind of cover, and whenever someone went to drink anything or cast anything you take those few steps away and out of perception. Being close enough to hear whispers, or behind closed doors, is when a spy is truly in danger, and that is how it should be in my opinion. And even then I spied on people behind closed doors many times and only once was ever caught...and that was by Detect Evil. I felt as if my spy was very effective, but I did it by being smart. I didn't spy on rangers, bards or other rogues, for instance, because the risk was too high. Being a good spy is about a lot more than being able to stand there undetected and listen anyway. If that's the entirety of your spy's repertoire you aren't likely to be that effective.

Yes, it comes as no surprise again that Bailey with her 40+ Hide/MS when it counted was not detected ever. Again, Bailey isn't a good example because her stealth was so far above the average. The average stealther will have half her stealth, and no matter how careful they are, they will get detected by a wizard with a minimum of 15/15 Spot/Listen. This is, simply, a fact. Now if this wizard is away from his faction area and not questing, and is say L9 (sort of average for an established wizard) then he's going queue up a few extended C+Cs (which now double as blur, which he couldn't have up if a Diviner...and so will likely extend them - or at least, I would) and have more detection skills than a ranger in the wilderness for 90% of the duration until his next rest.

If you adjust the spell duration you pretty much relegate the spell back to where people never actually cast it, and only carry about C&C potions or items they might find (although more tend to carry Amplify potions and items), since the DR's duration will be shorter than that of a blur potion.

I've played many wizards and they all carried one C+C spell at least, and several more if hunting a stealther. I think alot of other wizard players do the same, or have done. To say it was never cast is just an uninformed guess, sorry. :(

[AceOfSpadesX]

The duration of the blur effect of C/C is not that bad, but I will agree that having the detection buff last that long seems a bit much.

What do you guys think if the adjusted spell would keep it's duration, but have an initial "moment of clarity" where the detection skill buffs would apply, something close to the original duration of the spell, and fade away after, leaving just the blur effect?

[Relinquish]

If we're thinking about nerfing detection spells. Start with amplify. +20 listen as a L1 spell. It drops enough as a potion, and there are -some- bards that take brew/craft feats every so often to stock up.

[Divine Intervention]

Wizards can indeed buff with C&C, however stealthers have... Camouflage, One with the land, Grace.  Potions and charges aren't that hard to get, there is tons of stealth gear too.  Also, most dedicated stealthers have h/ms as class skills so they are easy to invest in.

[Gippy]

Detection gets +1d20. Stealth does not. Ergo detection's better almost always.

It's why pesky rats will spot people with only 20 stealth. There's just so many!

(It's more complicated than that, I know, rats get +8 spot from size but the stealther also gets bonuses from the sewers relative darkness...)

This is being discussed internally but your suggestions are always welcome!

[Egon the Monkey]

Going to go back to the more general line of the suggestion here, and suggest an addition I think would be cool. Making GSF Evocation give bonuses to Ice Dagger and Gedlee's, two spells rarely used because of their short range among other things.

Ice Dagger:
A caster with SF: Evocation deals 1d4+1 damage per level, to a maximum of 5d4+5
A caster with GSF: Evocation deals 1d6+1 damage per level, to a maximum of 5d6+5

Strong, yes, but has a reflex save and greater protection available (Insulation, Evasion) than Magic Missile or Negative ray and horribly short range but without AoE like Burning Hands.


Gedlee's Electric Loop:
A caster with SF Evocation increases its range to Medium.
A caster with GSF Evocation increases the Stun duration to 2 rounds.