A new EFUSS skill: Sense Motive

[lovethesuit]

Because why the heck not? So many people use Bluff against each other in game, why not have an actual skill to use with it? Allow the check to add your wisdom bonus and voila.

[Nightshadow]

I think this would be great, and offer a nice way of countering bluff other than listen, spot, wisdom, or even opposed bluff checks. Just so long as people don't go walking around trying to forcing people to make Sense Motive checks for every little thing (it's great if both people agree to it, better if both people don't need it, but in the end, only DM's can force you to make a check). I think there should be a synergy bonus, though, where after putting in 5 or 10 ranks into this you get a +2 to bluff, and after putting 5 ranks or more into bluff, you get a +2 to sense motive.

[Drakill Tannan]

Suggested before (by me) DMs said it wasn't a good idea because of the different progressions of EFUSS skills and regular skills.

[Nightshadow]

It could be a problem, yes... Perhaps limiting the points you can place in it to 3 + Character Level?

[VanillaPudding]

Rolls and the difficulty check of them should be case by case and decided on by a DM. Adding a hard value to some sort of PvP counter roll seems like a waste of time.

[lovethesuit]

Oh yeah, nobody said that these stupid PvP skill rolls are enforceable. Just like EFUSS at its core they are just for roleplaying assistance.

[Nightshadow]

Some players do tend to try to force people to make opposed rolls to what is usually a very poorly conceived lie ("No, I didn't steal it!" "But I saw yo-" "Crappy the Thief rolled a bluff check and got a 30." "//Roll Sense Motive to see through my lie." "No." "k, reported, bye. *logs off*" ... this happened to me once, on another server). Generally I think the people are far more mature than that, and as far as OOC stuff goes, I've had no difficulty getting along with anyone as far as I can remember (maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's my hawt 18 RL charisma), so I doubt it will be a problem, and if there are any problems, they will very quickly and be very minor pass as the 'hype' with new systems goes away.

[Snoteye]

Pitting core skills against EFUSS skills is not a good idea. The systems are not fully compatible and it will skew "results." Further, if such a skill existed I suspect more people would feel obligated to respond to rolls.

[Jayde Moon]

I'm not sure why it would be any different from:

A) Choosing some arbitrary skill/save/ability to roll
B) Simply choosing to ignore the bluff roll

Adding a 'sense motive' skill does not necessarily have to add any enforceability to a bluff roll, but can provide another tool for those 'RPers' to feel like they are... you know... propery RPing.

At the same time, the bang for the buck simply may not be there.  I don't really need any sense motive skill additions.  You roll bluff, and I go "Wow, had I known you were gonna roll bluff, I'd have assigned an arbitrary DC like... let's see, you rolled a 15... the DC would have been 17.  You fail."

[Staring Death]

Because the 3+ character level EFUSS skill doesn't stand a chance against a bluff of 30, reached simply with items.

[Barehander]

I don't see the benefit. It would only encourage roll play instead of genuine interaction. Social rolls are meant to be used against NPCs with a DM-determined DC, and so is Sense Motive. Even if two PCs used them against eachother, there would be situational DC modifiers that you couldn't apply without DM judgement.

At most, the weight you should give to social skills in interaction is to consider how many skill points the opponent has invested and let that support his verbal bluff if you're on the fence.

Whether or not social rolls are mandatory, there's absolutely no reason to encourage or facilitate them, IMO.

[Kinslayer988]

I want to point out that RP skill rolls are used more for DM events and conflicts.
Like when Pyotr lied to a dragon (and half the people he knew). Or when the DM says:
"The gnome says 'This place is rigged with explosives and there is nothing you can do' "
This would be the real moment to use counter bluff skill or something. But with players it is more of a:
"A player guard runs and says 'STOP! In the name of the law!' Hand over all your stolen goods."
"Player replies with 'OMFG I DIDN'T STEAL IT!' (roll bluff check)"
The guard player can just say:
"Mc.liar pants!! PAY THE COURT A FINE AND SERVE YOUR SENTENCE!"

DM skill checks and player skill checking are two different things.

[Porkolt]

The Sense Motive skill was never designed to be some kind of counter-skill to Bluff.
 
Both skills, rather, were designed to work while dealing with NPCs. The idea is that the DM determines a bluff by looking at the plausibility of a situation.
 
Quite simply, this system would not work because a bluff like 'I'm actually Ao in disguise having a tropical vacation here on Ymph' would have to be dealt with in the same way as a bluff like 'Wow, that embroidered cape looks really good on you'.
 
'But you could implement penalties and advantages for the checks to compensate for this.'
 
Yes, you could, but that would be stupid and highly subjective to varying interpretations. Besides, that way, it's not much different from the way most players are expected to deal with the bluff skill right now.