On Subraces

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

This has been addressed before, by me.

http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=20214&highlight=application

However, I feel like this view has been different. in Subrace applications, I am consistantly asked "Why does it need to be a tiefling, Aasimar, or even kobold?" "What makes this concept special so that it needs to be this race, in where a normal race wouldn't quite fit the bill?"

Well, I've always held the view of this- "If it enhances a concept, go for it." I do not think that a subrace should be the total justification of a goal or a concept. It should be completely doable with a normal character (say a dwarf char of Abbathor selling slaves) instead of the Duergar (Who will also be a slaver.)

Thoughts, opinions? Trolls?

[TheImpossibleDream]

I don't think its an unreasonable question for a DM to ask.

[petey512]

Not unreasonable, no, but insanely hard to answer, I've found.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Not unreasonable, no, but insanely hard to answer, I've found.

If its hard to answer its more likely you don't need to be that race I would think!

[Drakill Tannan]

Why if you just want to play a kobold rather than a human? Just for the sake of it?

You aren't asked why must your character be a dwarf, are you? or a halfling...

[BigBadThief]

This is kind of a tricky topic but I think I actually agree with Thomas on a point. That being that if it enhances the goals and adds flavor, alongside motivating the player to really pursue those goals, then I think that sometimes it really shouldn't matter so much.

You can nearly simplify any set of goals down to "A Human can do that"  and call it a day. On the other side it seems as easy as adding some extra 'flavor' goals that fit the subrace to appease what they're asking for. I believe in general what they try to avoid is people selecting these subraces for their raw power over the actual flavor and uniqueness they provide.

[Drakill Tannan]

I agree they ask you why do you want to make a drow rather than a regular elf. Or why must your character be a werecat or something as powefull, but goblins, kobolds...

[derfo]

I believe generally your subrace should be justified, looked at as a reward and not a right. I'm also sure there are a majority of concepts that can be 'enhanced' by a subrace, like good man seeming gooder as an aasimar, or evil man seeming eviler as a tiefling.

I think to an extent you can do anything as a normal race you could do with a subrace, save the most absurd things like be king lizardman or whatever. (even that can be worked around eventually with effort and creativity)

[Caddies]

You need to earn your subrace and the benefits that come with it by showing DMs in an app that having the subrace will add to the server and your goals in some manner. If you can't do that you can't play the subrace. I can't see how this is in anyway unreasonable. You aren't automatically entitled to a subrace because you put your app in. That isn't how it works.

[BrittanyPanthas]

Would your concept be the same thing, or almost entirely the same thing if it was human?

That's the best test for whether a subrace like Aasimar or Tiefling is warranted.

[AfroMullet]

I think it would be a good idea if some older subrace apps that the DMs liked are put up for example on that subrace thread. That way people can see examples of what the DMs want, which will make it easier for them to see how exactly a subrace can be needed for goals.

[Caddies]

[LIST=1]

• BlackRavenCharm
• EST evenings
• Morogh is a branded orog slave from Old Port who escaped during the revolts led by Mak'rur, the gladiator. After his escape, he joined the Whisper of Shargaas and the chosen of Gaathmar upon Ymph with the desire of becoming their chief, believing his ancestry giving him the right to lead them in warfare. However, his ambitions were soon noted and an assassination attempt was quick to follow. He escaped and ran to his old enemies, the colonists, as a form of protection until he can grow back in strength to challenge the warchief of the tribe.
• Morogh, Orog Bard, CE.
• My main goal for playing this character is to become a very visible and savage evil figure for both the colony to fear and aspire in slaying.

• One goal that Morogh will be striving to accomplish will be to amass strength by forming a band challenge the Whisper of Shargass (slay him in his sleep) with. Regarding this, the end is not important but the journey and this ambition will be fun to play out and will force Morogh to ally himself with the various powers of the Ziggurat in order to achieve it. This will also serve as a means for me to educate other PCs regarding Wild Orc lore on the island.
  
• Although Morogh is ruthless and would not hesitate to kill anyone in their sleep to advancehis goal of leading the hordes, he does so following the rights of Gaathmar such as always carrying out assassinations in the night, never the day. I will try to bring out the very savage nature of the wilderness by having Morogh engage in all sorts of tribalistic rituals, traditions, and rites which I will come up with along the way. Just to give an example, releasing enemies into the wild to be hunted down by his band.
• Stalk, stalk, stalk everything and everyone -- peek out from stealth/invis just for the effect. I'd really like to build a reputation that he can be everywhere and nowhere just for the fearful ambience it might provide. So, although Morogh is a monster and will be played as such, I intend to interact with PCs not by socializing with them, but rather by developing a proper fearful ambience where people will become paranoid, especially at night.

1. Caddies

2. GMT+10, varied

3. Culoch is a natural lycanthrope, raised amongst a Ymphian tribe of werewolves. Coming to that age, Culoch has recently left his tribe to embark on the test of his wolfhood, in which he must prove his understanding of the spirits of the wilds, as well as his ferocity as a hunter. Ambitious and hungry for the respect of his elders, Culoch has ranged further afield than others of his litter, into the strange and dangerous lands of the stone city, where mysterious spirits and cunning prey abound...

4. Culoch, 23 y.o CE werewolf barbarian/ranger.

5.

• Claiming Territory: The lands surrounding the Ziggurat Culoch has decided he will claim as his territory during his test. These lands brim with ancient spirits from whom he my learn wisdom as well as other wonders and challenges, and it is in the face of fierce adversity that a hunter grows strong and cunning. If Culoch is to return to his pack a respected adult, he must grow both fearsome and wise such that none doubt his value. The Ziggurat offers him this chance.

[INDENT]- Beggining with the Wyldwater, Culoch will begin claiming territory (map by map) around the Ziggurat as his strength and pack grows.
- Those who travel his territory and fail to leave offerings to Malar and himself on its edges will be hunted ruthlessly, the weak amongst them allowed to return to the Ziggurat to spread tales of his hunting prowress.
[/INDENT]

• Recruiting a Pack: The pack is the key to a successful hunt, even if he must form it in these strange lands from those weaklings ungifted with the superior ancestry of the wolf.

[INDENT]- Culoch will recruit from the ranks of the bandits, renegades and huntsmen of the Ziggurat, their chief incentive to join being his inclination not to eat them, as well as being able to join in his hunts.
- Culoch's pack will live in the wilderness, watching over and protecting its territory from intruders who don't offer tribute to the pack and Pard.

[/INDENT]

• Civilization vs. Wilderness: In line with is upbringing Culoch resents civilization immensely, eschewing it as a corruption of honorable living, its limitless decadence breeding weakness.

[INDENT]- Culoch will advocate the wilderness at every opportunity by teaching those sensible enough to listen to him how to live in the wild and how to thrive on the hunt.
- Culoch will protect the wilderness from any force who threatens it with a savage fury that he hopes will garner a proper respect for the wilds in the foolish city dwellers.

[/INDENT]

• High Hunts: The hunt is everything and the Pard must be satiated. As is customary amongst his kin, Culoch will hold a High Hunt every full moon during his stay here. He and his pack will hunt down and capture the strongest and most reviled creatures -such as mighty warriors and prominent politicans and the hated elves and Selunites- and release them into the forests to be hunted as animals. Through this ritual hunt the pack will grow strong and the Beastlord will be appeased.

• Primacy of the Wolf: The Blood of the Wolf is a sacred gift, and the wolf is the supreme apex predator. All other lycanthropes will be hunted down to assert the dominance of the wolf and those who hunt wolves will be slain in an especially grisly fashion.

• The Stewards: Culoch will learn of the Stewards, and will no doubt come to respect the knowledge these shamans command. He will be eager to learn from them and perhaps join them, but will not suffer the weak or feint-hearted amongst their ranks with any degree of aplomb.

[INDENT]Note: I hope to join he Stewards as a Guardian at some point, depending on how things play out IG. Just a heads up![/INDENT]

• Rejoining his pack: Culoch's overarching goal is returning to his pack as the worthy offspring of its chief KAGGA, gleaning enough wisdom and growing ferocious enough during his tenure in these inhospitable human lands to challenge his father and lead the pack, as is his birthright.

1. TwoHorned
2. GMT -7

3. A deceptive and cunning Tiefling, Aurelia once served under an advisor of the Queen Ixpadia. As a spawn of the Arch-Devil Mammon she is driven to be greedy, ambitious, and seemingly unable to ever break a pact. With the end of the Queen's War she took refuge amongst the many others who were driven off to Ymph from Old Port and has resided in the docks since. She now looks to take advantage of the twisted and chaotic state of the colony and build her own empire within the dangerous docks.

4. Aurelia Cervant - Tiefling - 25 - NE - Wizard

5.

- Crime and the Docks -

[/B]
 
  * Taking advantage of the chaotic docks is crucial to success and Aurelia will employ many tactics to gain status within. She'll try to become a figurehead of importance there by supporting the rebellious population in their fight against the tyrants.

  * Aurelia will Unite the many different forces into a single force that is more appealing to the masses and powerful in action. She hopes to either join 'The Sons' and work from within or ally herself with their numbers in the same effort of unifying the area.

 * Shakedowns and thefts will be organized against factions that operate outside of the Docks. Many of the funds taken will be used to purchase food and other necesseties for the common inhabitant as means to increase their standing with the populace and further empower their efforts.

  * Aurelia will constantly work to build a criminal empire while economically strangling the Stygians, Nobles, and other oppressive organizations that take refuge amongst the upper class.

- Mammon the Viscount -

[/B]

  * As a spawn of Mammon the Viscount, Aurelia holds many virtues of the Arch-Devil and is driven by the lust, greed, and ambition that he stands for. She'll consistantly look to bolster his following by
converting others into his faith directly or by forcing them to make pacts with other Devils in his service.

 * She will study the rituals and methods used to summon or communicate with Devils of power so that others may be cohersed into dealing with them.

- The Conclave -

[/B]

 * Aurelia will not direclt oppose the conclave but will often try and convert less powerful wizards into her service rather than their own. She will also try and place informants within this faction as to aid in espionage.

 * She will work to continually steal their research and knowledge, typically to be put to use in her efforts to make pacts with powerful beasts of her home plane or even summon such creatures.

- H'Bala -

[/B]

 * Pursuing the path to set H'Bala free in exchange for power, wealth, or knowledge of Ixpadia's location will be an ongoing challenge for Aurelia.  

- Ixpadia Sabuth -

[/B]

 * One of her overarching goals is to locate the former rebel Queen within the Underdark. If completed she will lead a group down below to free Ixpadia so her influence and power can be used to truly lead
the docks against the opposing forces once again.

- The Devil's tower -

 * Another of her overarching goals is to construct a grand residence within the docks, a wizard's tower of some magnitude that stands as a pillar of resistance against the tyrants who previously looked down upon the docks. This structure will serve as a place of research, a shrine to Mammon, and residence for all of her trusted companions.

Each of these subrace apps clearly show what effect being that subrace will have on their character and his beliefs and all three have at least one goal pertaining to their rare heritage. That's all we're looking for really in regard to subrace apps!

[Paha]

Is the last one already dead? Sad to hear : /

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

THANK YOU CADDIES. [Worships.]

[Stormbringer]

Yes, thank you Caddies. I don't know if it has been done before, but I think that showing some examples of apps is great. It really lets people see what the apps are about and what is expected.