Evocation - Levelling the field

[Caddies]

Funnily enough, some spells are better than others. I don't see why DMs should have to edit the spells to make them all 'equal'. If you prefer to use some of the less-powerful spells as a matter of style, than that's what makes you stylish; especially if you can succeed with them.

[Drakill Tannan]

I greatly disagree with you Caddies, having some spells better than others just makes people use the same spells over and over. Maybe you enjoy purposely nerfing your own character, in the same way i've seen players take dirty fighting, snake blood and thug on a PW with high level and virtually no poison just for the taste, but in my experience people doesn't like to nerf their character for style.

As for love the suit's post:

The problem about cloud of bewilderment and gedlee's electric loop is still there: the AoE and low range. Surely with a right placement you can make them effective, but what are you risking for the right placement?

Casting gedlee's against the enemies that haven't started to run is pointless. the damage done is a joke and the 1 round stun will not help much unless it is done to several enemies, however the AoE is so small it will harm only 1 enemy, or 2 if they are very close, in any case it won't do much if you can't target 3 enemies at least, but then even if you could do so it's highly unlikely you can do so from behind the frontline, the enemies would have to be blind and the fighters not at all eager to fight, otherwise you are at the front, since you won't stun all enemies with a single spell something is going to come after you before the others can save you. On low level quests you can escape, on high level quests likely 2 hits will take you down unless you are buffed with stoneskin.

THe other way to target more than a single enemy with gedlee's is to wait untill the enemy is over your fighters and then cast it, in wich case it will affect 3 or more, but will damage your caster, only in very few ocacions will you be able to pull it off without targeting the fighter and that is completly dependent of the enemy AI, only if a certian patern is met your skill actually comes into game.

What i propose changes it, if it acts as a chain lighing you can cast it when the enemies are surrounding your fighters, it might save his life and even if not, save him a lot of trobule the range woudln't have to be changed, and it wouldn't depend on where the monsters step to be pulled right, not as much at least. With slightly greater AoE it will allow you to help 2 fighters at once even, if the right circumstances are given, however in order not to become imbalanced for each 1d6 damage it stuns 1 enemy.

As for cloud of bewilderment, i agree with the right knowledge and placement it can change a fight, but it also depend on how randomly the enemy choses the targers, there are some times were it simply can't be pulled without provoking an AoO or luring an archer, at times it is too risky. Slighly farther range is all i ask, 2m say would allow some flexibility since you wouldn't have to go in front, but would still require the right placement for good effect.

Magic missile can't asolve the firepower issue either, the damage it does is far too low compared to the high HP of the average enemy, at level 9 it takes 2-3 hits with average to high damage to kill the average enemy, in the OCs at such low levels the average enemy has 15-20 life or so, perfectly killable with a lucky rolled ice dagger, or a good magic missile, that is because the spells were meant to be effective against mobs with such HP, in EFU:A the average non fodder enemy has 50 life or more, even if you can dobule your magic missiles, it won't do a thing. While this could be fixed by incresing the AC and lowering the HP of monsters that is a change too big for i to dare to propose, so i won't, the thing is, we need spells with "other usefull" effects that raw damage OR AoE damage spells for them to be worht using instead of a summon.Or spells that simply do damage comparable to the HP of monsters, such as comburst.

As for fireball and Scintillating Sphere they should have the same range, the damage type should be the only diference, especially with orcs being resistant to fire as they are.

I'd also like to add, ultravision does not counter darkness, acording to the mechanical changes page here in EFU:A, therefore having a mage who casts ultravision on an ally and darkness on the mobs is really not as effective, unless the fighter has blind fight in wich case it will be only half as effective. I greatly disagree with this change, but there it is. I suppose it's a PvP balance issue like hold person.

Lastly but not least, casting offensive spells underwater is stupid less you consider yourself very lucky. For underwater adventures it's either buffing, self buffing or both.

[TheImpossibleDream]

Funnily enough, some spells are better than others. I don't see why DMs should have to edit the spells to make them all 'equal'. If you prefer to use some of the less-powerful spells as a matter of style, than that's what makes you stylish; especially if you can succeed with them.

This.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

Funnily enough, some spells are better than others. I don't see why DMs should have to edit the spells to make them all 'equal'. If you prefer to use some of the less-powerful spells as a matter of style, than that's what makes you stylish; especially if you can succeed with them.

Think this nails it here.

In much the same way as using any of the 'poor' alternative weapons to the usual staple of bastard sword, longsword, shortsword and greataxe, there are 'poorer' alternative spells.

However, the STYLE bonus from killing an enemy with an ice dagger to the face is priceless, and DM's nooooticce these thinnnngs...

Signature spells are cool.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Pssh.
After blasting through a staff full of magic missile and getting hell of bored of the animation, I used ice dagger tons of times.
Nobody noticed except a Stygian with an ice fetish.
 
Admittedly, it's satisfying when you do manage to kill something with it.  
Like nailing somebody in the head with a grenade in Call of Duty.

[Egon the Monkey]

@Drakill

Darkness and Ultra have been reverted to their standard forms, it's the webpage that's out of date. Believe me on this, I have used it on numerous quests recently to give excellent concealment especially in boss fights.

in my experience people doesn't like to nerf their character for style.

I really wouldn't argue that against a player (caddies) whose last PC used a shortsword and spear on his fighter rather than a longsword and greataxe.

Magic missile can't asolve the firepower issue either, the damage it does is far too low compared to the high HP of the average enemy, at level 9 it takes 2-3 hits with average to high damage to kill the average enemy

You don't have enough magic missiles to waste them on average enemies anyway. Reserve them for bosses and critically important stuff. Against a high AC or very deadly target, unstoppable damage is handy. For your average goons, hit the lot with a Colour Spray and let your team clear up the stunned mess.

Also, the vast majority of your problems can be solved by, and I'm going to hammer this home a bit:

Learning.
To.
Aim.

Gedlee's and Cloud can both be cast at the floor. It is perfectly possible to aim them and even fireballs to clip the front of a group of mobs and miss your frontline. Providing nobody rushes into the AoE, you're fine. You can aim ahead of an enemy, predicting where he'll end up. You can aim to the side, to catch the mobs in the Gedlee's Small AoE without hitting your guys. And if you can't strafe a goon with a colour spray cone whils missing your guy, I suggest going and practicing on a campaign or action server (that's what I did).

Now, go back and read LTS's rant. Much as improvements would be nice, he makes a good case for why not. I'm convinced.

Finally, ScottyB has NOT contributed to this discussion AT ALL. To those of you looking at the avatar, not the name....
Lovethesuit has you well and truly conned, simply by swapping his avatar for a copy of ScottyB's.
Bravo, LTS. Bravo.

[FleetingHeart]

To retort to Scotty's cunning defence of ice dagger...

That is not SCOTTYB. LTS really needs to change his avatar, I'm tired of people confusing him for a DM.

[lovethesuit]

That is not SCOTTYB. LTS really needs to change his avatar, I'm tired of people confusing him for a DM.

:) Good cause I care alot about what you're tired of so I'm just gonna go ahead and fix it thx for volunteering

Caddies hit the nail on the head. Making all the spells samey is nothing more than a useless time sink that sucks the fun and variety out of magic.

As for the Ice Dagger save, I would counter with the fact that Shield, a 1st circle abjuration available to any sorcerer/wizard, -completely- counters Magic Missile for 1 turn/level.

[Jayde Moon]

Why would Fleeting Heart quote what he just posted?

[FleetingHeart]

:) Good cause I care alot about what you're tired of so I'm just gonna go ahead and fix it thx for volunteering

Caddies hit the nail on the head. Making all the spells samey is nothing more than a useless time sink that sucks the fun and variety out of magic.

As for the Ice Dagger save, I would counter with the fact that Shield, a 1st circle abjuration available to any sorcerer/wizard, -completely- counters Magic Missile for 1 turn/level.

Ice dagger still has more going against it than magic missiles.
Ice Dagger:
[LIST=1]

• Reflex save for half/no damage depending on feats
• Blur
• Any one of three elemental resistance spells that last for long durations

Magic Missiles
[LIST=1]

• Shield, short duration block
• Blur, long duration block

Really, the main reason I want to see the range increased on Ice Dagger is that it is extremely easy to get stuck in situations where you can't cast it at all or at least, not where it would help most (like taking down an enemy spellcaster rapidly). Especially in tight corridors.

If the damage stays, fine. I just thought I'd toss it in there. It makes sense to me. Even if the damage scaling of Ice Dagger were matched identically to Magic Missiles (1d4+1 per 2 levels), it would still average less damage due to the reflex save.

As for Scint Sphere and Fireball? Both have advantages in certain places. Sure, a Scintillating Sphere will do more underwater, but a fireball will do more versus fire weak mobs. Not that I know of any, but I also can't think of any situations where I would be likely to actually cast Scintillating Sphere underwater. Wand it? Sure, but to risk the spell failure is too much.

Cloud and Gedlee's I stand by. Their short ranges make them extremely situational. Extremely. Are they powerful in those situations? Yes. No doubt of that. But those situations come up so rarely that they aren't the types of spell you can justify memorizing regularly without metagaming some information. And yes, I know that Cloud can be cast behind monsters to avoid your front line, but doing so often puts you in the thick of things where maneuvering is unpredictable or impossible. It also can very easily put you in perception range of mobs that have not yet run forward, causing them to lock onto you first. God forbid they be archers. A bump to their range would just mean more mages choosing to cast them. Again, variety. You all worry about the loss of variety, but I'm trying to introduce some by making these spells more versatile.

As for the comments about cantrip wands, this was always my intention and now that I've reached a level where I can make them, I am carrying several around with me at all times. Two and a half gold per charge is a no brainer to keep yourself in the game and doing damage on a long tough quest. But this doesn't solve the fact that the spells I choose to use for flavor (primarily Cloud, but also Gedlee's) are so rarely useful without putting my party in grave danger. I'm honestly considering still spell next level for the sole purpose of having more ice daggers or burning hands to toss around instead of clouds.

Also, I don't care if you copy my forum avatar. My voice carries little to no weight around here and I accept that. Impersonating a DM is an entirely different issue and I've seen far too often where your opinion is taken as gold because people think you are a DM. It's bad form and abusive. You shouldn't need to be told this.

[lovethesuit]

Also, I don't care if you copy my forum avatar. My voice carries little to no weight around here and I accept that. Impersonating a DM is an entirely different issue and I've seen far too often where your opinion is taken as gold because people think you are a DM. It's bad form and abusive. You shouldn't need to be told this.

You're cute. I had that avatar for like 5 posts. You don't get to say what's "bad form and abusive", either; that's for the DMs to decide. Grow up.

[ScottyB]

I am deeply offended that you thought LTS was posting as me. His post didn't even begin with, "this suggestion is not possible"! He was so obviously not me.

On that note:
[INDENT]This suggestion is not possible.[/INDENT]

Specifically, changing the range of a spell requires 2DA modification. When range and certain other fields of a spell's 2DA row are changed then the player needs the same change as the server or else they can't prepare the spell (sometimes they can prepare it but then it greys out). Doing this to default spells is undesirable.

As for changing the damage values/pattern... that is possible, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I'd much rather revamp the entire spell list to include a balanced selection of "sets" rather than the incoherent shotgun-pattern of spells we have; such a drastic improvement would require a hakpak, though.

[TheWastesAreFrozen]

Wizards are fine, Haks for the win.