Hostage Situations

[scribjellydonut]

How come every time I come back to post in a thread I've started, it's been derailed by a bunch pointless stuff and subsequently closed?  I'm starting to doubt the maturity of most of the playerbase, but that aside...
 
The original post wasn't talking about emote kills, it was talking about roleplaying a hostage situation.  I made the assumption(and I hope not erroneously) that this was a roleplay server and not a rollplay server.  I was never really suggesting the person holding the knife could insta-kill someone with a modified mechanic, but that the players in the situation play it as if that were the case.  This really is a prime example of your OOC knowledge of mechanics reflecting on how you play your character IC - It's no different than playing your Billybaddass PC mentioned in another thread who fights anything, but then breaking character and not fighting someone because you know OOC that you're only level 4 and he's at least level 8.  The hostage situation wasn't the only case but was the only one I could think of where, I had hoped people would put role in front of roll in their playing styles, but from the responses I got I can see this most likely will not be the case.
 
One more thing directed at Howland about the balance of classes would be simply: classes aren't balanced.  NWN is based off D&D, which is not a PvP game.  D&D is a game where a party of players, through the assistance of a Dungeon Master, can battle other enemies that are 'intelligent' too.  It's all based on a party system, where each class is needed - You need your caster for lore and spells, you need your fighters up front, you need your rogue for traps and locks, you need your archer for general combat support and ranged combat, etc etc.  These classes weren't meant to be balanced in PvP, but were meant to work together towards a common goal where each is needed.  (As a side note it's unfortunate that most all of the scripted quests can be done with just fighters and maybe one caster).  I know that NWN servers allow you to play PvP, but no one should ever assume that PvP is balanced for different classes.  Maybe in group PvP some classes other than fighters could be thrown in vs a party full of fighters and hopefully still win.  The bottom, though, is that the classes are not in any comparable form 'balanced' and should not be.

[N/A]

*Stabs the thread in the back.*

[DeputyCool]

I defy you to tell me one class that is at a distinct disadvantage on EFU.

Balance is achieved, sir.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

*Stabs thread in the back, harder*

[Sinister Seneschal]

AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, 'CAUSE SCRIB JELLY SEZ SO!!!

[Howlando]

All right I'll just throw this out here.

ScribJellyDonut, you have a unique talent for phrasing posts in our forums in a way as to draw the ire of myself and the EFU:A community. It may be worth considering why that is. Let me assure you as someone who is quite mature and level-headed I don't think it has anything to do with the supposed lack of maturity of our playerbase.

To address your points as clearly, politely, and reasonably as I can -

You can absolutely roleplay any variety of hostage situations, and this has been done on more occasions than I can count on two hands. You could, as a rogue, pop out of stealth and warn the party that if they don't give out their gold, someone is going to die. If you're not fully confident of your ability to beat the party if they've time to prepare, it's also OK to attack and subdual a member of the party and then threaten to kill that member if the party doesn't sit back and negotiate.

You can also RP things such as kidnapping people, threatening friends, etc.

What is not appropriate is having an OOC expectation that players should ignore the mechanics of the fact that their PC, as an experienced adventurer, can usually take a few crossbow bolts to the gut and keep swinging, or often deflect a knife thrust to the back, or whatever. In order to keep things consistent and fair to all involved, our stories and RP are typically layered on top of the mechanics of the game used to tell them rather than relying on amorphous and poorly defined expectations such as what might be found in PnP, IRC roleplaying, or forum roleplaying.

I realize DnD was not intended to be a PvP-balanced game. But speaking as someone who has both played and DM'ed this server fairly extensively, let me assure that in our unique environment every single class (and variety of multiclasses) has the potential to win PvP and indeed be a PvP powerhouse.

Mechanics aside, PvP in EFU typically has more to do with: a player's personal experience/skill, level of the PCs involved, supplies of the PCs involved, loot of the PCs involved, number of allies and or other PCs in the area, presence of NPCs that may or may not get involved, and any number of other factors that could easily tilt a situation one or the other and that have continued to surprise me as a DM on so many occasions when supervising.

Speaking purely mechanically, I could suggest you simply trust my experience on this subject, but as it seems that is unlikely, I would suggest you consult with various veterans among the playerbase about examples of some of the powerful PCs that have consistently won PvP.

In the example of the rogue, PCs like Pyotr Ignatiev (level 8 charisma based pure rogue) won a great deal of PvP and the PC Agrael Lothor (eventually reaching level 11 pure rogue) won even more and absolutely held his own as one of the bastions of a former law enforcement faction. And both won plenty of PvP throughout their leveling up experience. There are any many other examples.

If you're not convinced by history and evidence, consider more carefully some of the mechanical reasons why rogues can shine so well.

Initiative is extremely important, and being able to get the drop on an opponent through superior stealth is a vast advantage. UMD to use wands and disabling magic, incredibly deadly traps, and extremely high damage against stunned or helpless foes all add to a skillfully played rogue's potential aresenal of tricks to help them defeat an opponent.

Finally, of course EFU:A is not all about PvP. PvP is a part of what we do here but in making this post I do think it's appropriate to close with a reminder of this.

As for you scrib, I think your threads would be more well received if you adopted a more relaxed tone and remembered to adopt to and understand what we're trying to do here in EFU:A rather than dictate how you think (in your opinion) things actually should be.

[Nights Bane]

Try sending tells

Never underestimate the willingness of other PC's.  If you have a firebomb item for example and wandered into the stygian guardhouse, with Stygian PC's and emoted "Holds up a bomb" their response might be to "disable" you by subdualing you.  But if you sent them tells explaining what was about to occur, you would get a much richer rp experience im sure!

I remember Asking someone if I could rp taking them back to an inn room, with my female halfling, but sending them a tell explaining I wasnt after Cyb0ring, but wanted to attempt a mugging with a sleeping wand.

Well- he failed his save against the sleep wand, and i Pickpocketed him while he actually resting.  When i say thats a good example of what i mean, I am talking about the rp, not the fact the sleeping wand worked (It might just as easily of failed, and that would of brought PvP) and my PC walked away with some coin.

[Drakill Tannan]

Scribjellydonut: it's not the inmaturity of the playerbase. From what i've seen is just that they like the server as it is, and are therefore resist attepts of chaingning it.

As for why the topic changed from RP the situations to emoting death, take into account any "hostage" situation will always tip to the favour of the hostage simply because you can't kill them, and they will always be free to kick your butt, now if a player is willing to lose then it works, but how many players are willing to lose something if they have the choice not to, even if it doesn't make RP sence?

..maybe? that's what i think anyway.

[scribjellydonut]

Howland let me say that I'm somewhat appreciative of the fact that I can attract the ire of the community because that means to me that I am rocking the foundation of EFU:A and its principle & mechanics.  That I am boldy and without restrain making those feel uncomfortable about the game and its mechanics most likely means I am touching on a subject near and dear, to say the least.  Let me say that I do enjoy the server, and would not be here otherwise, it's just that I see much room for improvement and enrichment of the server in general.
 
But since we have had a few limited conversation in the past Howland and it is your server, let me say this to you:  I do, despite what you may think of me, appreciate greatly the hard work and dedication that has been put into making a fully functional(and great) server - and believe me on this as I've seen the work and effort required to make a game server before.
 
I really don't have much else to add, as we seem to agree on most things, except that our logic seems to approach the same conculsion from two different sides - mine being the more pessimistic while yours the more optimistic
 
...since a few other people defended rogues(and don't take this as trolling or insult) without at all understanding logical reasoning, let me explain:  When the ABSOLUTE BEST rogue build defeats the ABSOLUTE LOUSIEST fighter/barb build, that is not a balanced class system.

[N/A]

...since a few other people defended rogues(and don't take this as trolling or insult) without at all understanding logical reasoning, let me explain: When the ABSOLUTE BEST rogue build defeats the ABSOLUTE LOUSIEST fighter/barb build, that is not a balanced class system.

low wat?

Aside from lacking knowledge about balance and mechanics, judging from your rants and stuff, you seem to lack social etiquette too.