Kobolds and GOblins app only

[Meldread]

I have to second this, but also add...

I think there is a double standard here.  It has to do with red vs blue.  In almost every case I've run into on EfU, throughout my entire career, you could take the most foam-at-the-mouth Kobold / Goblin hating PC and throw them at a non-hostile NPC of that race and they'll react differently.  

How many EfU Gnomes actually attempted to kill Lord Bunge, for example?  How many goblin haters On EfU: A are going to assault Gobsquat?  How many PC's who hunted PC kobolds on EfU actually attempted to assault the Shadow Tribe?

Matters only get worse if a DM possesses an NPC.  On EfU, you could take the most Drow hating PC around, have a DM possess it and suddenly everyone is willing to chat it up with the NPC.

Almost always this is due to OOC things.  A player might assume, for example, that they shouldn't attack the Drow / Goblin / Whatever because the DM is trying to do something important.  Or that because it's a DMNPC it's too powerful to actually kill, or that they'll have to deal with the anger of other players for killing off a potential DM quest, etc.

I can only think of one instance where a PC actually attacked a DM controlled goblin.  We were saving Edmund the Cleric of Tyr from slavery.  A goblin was in the group of slaves, and we had a gnomish Paladin with us.  The Paladin refused to bring the goblin back to Sanctuary, but most of the other PC's wanted to take him along and leave him at the gates.  The Paladin said no and killed him on the spot.  The NPC's reacted negatively calling him a bastard, or saying "Wow, that's harsh." - something like that.

What I think we have here is a disconnect.  Either Goblins are evil monsters or they are not.  Can Gobsquat -truly- become civilized?  Can Goblins as a race ever not be evil?

The EfU Answer to -all- of those questions is:  No.

According to EfU Cannon all goblins have what I believe is best called the "evil gene."  This means that, outside of rare and exceptional circumstances, every goblin ever born is going to be a murderous, backstabbing, lying and cannibalistic creature.  There is no redemption, no hope - it is what it is - just kill it, there is no reason to even talk to it.

The problem that arises is that there are numerous in game examples where this is simply not the case.  On EfU we had Lord Bunge.  On EfU:  A we have Gobsquat.

There are mixed messages being sent.  Either they are all evil, murderous savages or they are not.  

Putting aside EfU Cannon for a moment and talking specifically as a player and speaking on personal preference I find the "evil gene" silly.  In my view alignment is not something you're born with, it is based upon actions.  Goblins should be evil, not because they are born that way, but because of their culture.  In my view it is like saying all halflings must be like Froddo Baggin's, or that all Elves must be like Legolas.  If they are not those things, then they are not real halflings / elves.

As a player, I find it more interesting to believe that Gobsquat -could- potentially become civilized.  I like that idea, much more than the alternative, which basically means that the only sensible thing a non-goblin loving PC can do is try and wipe them out.  I find the whole "evil gene" concept silly as a whole, and really only think outsiders - and those born / touched by outsiders should cleave toward a certain alignment.  

All that being said... EfU Canon states clearly that there is an evil gene.  Thus, only in exceptional and rare circumstances will you find a goblin who isn't evil and worthy of being slain on the spot.  As a result I do support them becoming application only to ensure that they are played properly.

However, I will point out that in the past when goblins were application only players as a whole were less reluctant to attack them.  This was because players OOCly knew that anyone who played a goblin put time and work into getting the goblin.  They didn't want to feel lame in killing said goblin before he had a chance to walk three feet outside the OOC Welcome area.

Now, rather than deride the player base on that point, I feel it should be commended.  I think it is great and totally awesome that people on this server are taking into consideration the feelings of other players and the work they put into their characters.

At the same time, I think if we are going to be a society of goblin haters, as all non-goblins must be, we should at least see a reflection of this in game.  Players should actively be plotting to destroy Gobsquat, because of the evil gene there really is no hope for them at all.  I assume this would be common in character knowledge.

Additionally, since all goblins are evil and we want to discourage players from coddling them, evil points toward anyone goblin-coddling should be given.  After all you're pretty much coddling an evil little demon.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Long winded post maker should be your title Meldread.

[Goblin Butcher]

Meldread, Lord bunge for some unknown reason was unkillable, I remember plum and I wanting to organize a group to kill him quite a few times but for some reason we were not allowed to, so instead I just told everybody he a) is exiled for eating a human child and B) sells poisoned goods made of kobold urine.

I'd like for the two races to be ~either~ app races, OR you no longer need a DM to just outright slay them. Tired of having to tolerate kobolds/goblins for the lack of a DM.

[putrid_plum]

Naga is right, Lord Bunge was under DM protections sadly, trust me it came up alot on various gnomes, with various players.

Also I assualted the Shadow Tribe Embassy and more, it happens and I agree that it's a waste of time to have to grab a DM everytime I want to PvP an evil goblin that mostly no NPC would care about.  Plus not always are DMs on and ALOT of kobolds/goblins would take advantage of this.

[Howlando]

Please tell me which NPC in the Gobsquat is "cute and cuddly." I'm just going to go ahead and say that I don't think a setting where every goblin and kobold was a red rushing monster would be as interesting to me as one in which they aren't.

Goblins are evil, yes, but I would say that their form of evil is altogether different than that of a drow, or a demon, or a zombie. I see them as more pathetic than aggressive, in many cases.

Many goblins in EFU will just want to run up and eat you, others may be dominated by stronger NPCs and just stand there picking their nose, at least until they think they can get away with it. Others fear your kind too much to be aggressive, while others may want to use you in some other way, and so on.

I have enjoyed playing with such NPCs as Grulpo, Gobbler, and so on in the Underdark. They are dirty, colorful, rather vile NPCs that PCs can choose to either deal with or not.

I enjoyed building the Gobsquat and the NPCs there likewise. It is a separate, slum-like, dirty, yet-safe-from-monsters area kind of place that I think the server needs. I mean, there's no accounting for taste, but I am a huge fan of "slum" atmospheres and without the Gobsquat we wouldn't have that.

As for them being "civilized," I would think its' fairly obvious they aren't. The more they chatter about the idea of "civilization" and cherish the trash and junk that they think makes them civilized, the more obvious it should be becoming that they are not civilized at all. They are being manipulated and controlled, as many goblins are. In EFU, goblins are often enslaved and held in service to some more complex power that may choose to use them as a weapon, or as slaves, or sersvants, etc. Anyway, there's plot to be explored there, and I don't think I need to spoil it OOC.

Are the Gobsquat goblins dangerous? Yes. Are they as dangerous as orcs would be, or demons? No.

The evil of goblins is, I don't think, so much the baby-stealing, human-eating characteristic (although that is certainly there, in varying degrees) but rather their lack of morality, their cowardice, their lack of empathy, their grotesque nature, their penchant for cruelty, and so on.

Do I think many characters in EFUA will not trust Gobsquat and seek to avoid it? Absolutely. Do I think every non-evil needs to focus on destroying it? No, not really. I think many PCs would understand that while no goblin can be trusted, some are more dangerous than others. Every hour some kind of ancient magical device tears innocents from their former life to deposit them on a dangerous island, every nightfall terrible ancient skeletons emerge from the ruins to do battle with the living, every day terrible monsters roam the wilds beyond... surely these, and the many (many!) other things in EFUA would be of more pressing concern.

At least, all that is my view.

Regarding PC goblin/kobolds, I think the problem is exaggerated. The case that actually inspired this post was mostly one of misunderstanding, in which conflict arose because one character wanted to kill a goblin NOW rather than beat it up LATER.

Still, we are going to move towards disabling them as app-free. If nothing else it should help cut down on the amount of time DMs need to spend on monitoring PvP.

If there's really a strong feeling about people in the playerbase that they dislike the idea of non-hostile goblins/kobolds and don't want to see them in EFUA, I'd welcome discussion on it, but for me (and I guess this is just a matter of taste) I think they add color and flavor and more of the "grey" that the FR often lacks.

[Denko]

"you are frustrated because you are somehow forced (by what??) to fd people despite the fact you don't like it?"

I am not forced by anything, but I am compelled to fight and kill them because it is what my character ought to do. He never hesitates to pepper a goblin out in the woods with arrows, as damned near every PC does. Why should my attitude towards a race change just because they aren't instantly set to hostile by being a PC monster. Hell, they're CLOSER to the city and the people and thus should be considered MORE dangerous and MORE worthy of peppering with arrows.

And one more thing to add: it's frustrating to have to try and grab a DM to hunt a gobbo all the time. Just seems like such a minor thing to waste their time over, yet it's so important to get one because it's PvP all the same.

So yea. [beats the horse a little more for good measure]

It isn't about fding them, it is about fding them and then saying you don't like it. Obviously you don't dislike it, or you wouldn't fd. There are plenty of ways to not go on a monster pc hunting rampage and still be consistent with your character. Like, giving them a chance to escape thanks to a "mistake" of your character.

I have a question for people who complain about how the monster pcs are played. Is the problem the way they BEHAVE? Like, they could LOOK good, but actually BE evil? Or is the problem they aren't evil AT ALL?

[Garem]

I try to keep as much OOC influence out of my IC action. Some is neccessary, but conveniently letting every monster PC run away... I mean, how am I supposed to make my swings less accurate or arrows NOT hit them? Plus, I feel obligated in some way TO attack monster PCs. They should WANT to be attacked! That's what makes playing them so damned fun, is that most people hate your stinky guts! If I don't challenge them at every turn, try to beat the pathetic life out of them, I'm just stealing away from THEIR experience of playing a dirty monster.

As for your last series of questions, I would say it is mostly the latter, although the first question posed also occurs as well. Have you ever seen a kobold have a friend? Theoretically, and according to canon FR lore, kobolds lack the capacity to LOVE other. That's a BIG deal, and makes having "friends" impossible! They can't love at all! No romantic love, no fraternal love, no paternal love.

"When I tried playing my first kobold here, everyone attacked me on sight. Maybe one out of ten helped me." - Jasede

You play kobolds fine, and I have no doubts that you'd get any kobold you wanted passed. At the time of your coming to this server, iirc, kobolds and goblins had just been made non-app and people hunted them all the time just because half the server consisted of monsters. That's not the case anymore, and the number of PC monster killers is much less.

[RIPnogarD]

To point out that he had 16 int and while he was an evil necro, he was not stupid.  Why should an intelligent goblin go around saying he is evil and looking to get attacked by team good.

Thats part of the point here. Humans, elves and dwarves are not stupid either and if they see a single goblin talking his way out of a beating or death they know he's doing it to save his ass not because he's actually good. You admit he was evil, most playable races and classes are smart enough to know he's evil, even if he says, "I no eat nobody! No kill me!"

[bob7el]

I guess it's a little late to throw in my 2 cents.  I know most disagree, but I like the idea of goblins and kobolds being non-app accessible.  From my own experiences, I've had good interactions with both kobolds and goblins on the island.

I like what they add to the atmosphere.  You -know- they're evil (or you can at least assume so).  So we can all act like Paladins towards them.  You don't need to treat them kindly, and you shouldn't trust them.  Even if you don't cut them down on the spot, there are plenty of ways to make your disdain for them known.

I also like how they can be turned into slaves and servants, which creates interesting character conflict between all sorts of PCs.  

Their commonality feels appropriate to the setting.  When I see a goblin or kobold (which isn't too infrequently), I don't feel repressed at all in how I should treat their character accordingly.

Anyways.  I like them as they are, and I think a couple isolated incidents are giving them a bad rep, but this shouldn't undue the potential they have to add to the setting.  Just my 2 cents.

[Meldread]

Howland,

Don't get me wrong.  I love Gobsquat.  When I found the Goblin-Priestess-Of-Sune Wannabe, it was love at first sight.  My PC was ICly repulsed, but OOCly I laughed out loud and loved it.  My problem is largely an OOC one.

I love the Goblin Sunite so much, I actually -want- to see her get spells.  I don't -want- to kill her because she's so totally awesome.  She is hands down so far my most favorite NPC on the server.

Yet, ICly to my PC she is so utterly repulsive and defaming the name of Sune so badly, there is little reason I shouldn't strangle her to death where she stands.

I like Gobsquat.  I like that they want to try and act civilized.  I just find it disappointing that, because of the "evil gene" they'll never be successful, even with a great amount of PC effort.  Ultimately, as well, once we get ourselves organized and whatnot, it's inevitable for the PC's to band together and wipe Gobsquad out.  

After all, goblins are evil, it's pointless to try and civilize them, and the moment we don't have to depend on them is the moment they die.  Which means said awesome Sunite NPC is no more.

I also feel that there is an OOC pressure to slaughter all monsters senselessly simply because they are evil.  It feels to me as if someone wanted the appearance of racism without actual racism.  Like, they wanted you to hate goblins and slaughter goblins, but at the same time have the ability to do it with a clean conscience.  It kills any moral ambiguity.

If goblins are, and will forever be inherently evil, why not strangle every goblin baby in its cradle?  It makes perfectly justifiable sense to do so ICly, and to do so with a clear conscience that they were born evil.

I agree with you - I love grey morality.  That is the reason I feel the way that I do.  But I know once our settlement no longer has to depend on them, they'll be wiped out - it's inevitable.  My PC, assuming he's still alive, would likely be highly supportive of that effort.  Even as OOCly, I'd much rather be trying to civilize them, and working toward getting that Sunite Goblin some divine power from Sune.

Why?  Because they're so awesome and interesting.  But because I both ICly and OOCly know it's impossible - they're innately evil and thus can never be saved - there is no reason to even try, or even give it consideration.

[DenGrasse]

Look, I know they are great fun, the occasional goblin and kobold horde is great.
Honestly, people are playing these races wrong. They are universally evil, should be hated, loathed, and abused and murdered on site. You DON"T strike up a conversation with a goblin, you should ignore it, attack it, and send it running.
Since the player base seems to not get the idea, and goblin/kobold players aren't playing them right, I propose to revert them to application only.
Thank you.

I subscribe each word.
Goblins/kobolds are fun, but is not possible, that be much numerous than standard races. On EfU was separated, but here we live all together.