Rogue downsides?

[Random_White_Guy]

Having played many a Rogue, I will tell you this:

Difficult in PvP, Difficult on Quests, stellar for RP.

- The "AC can be buffed argument" is pretty bad, because what ever a rogue can do a Fighter can do better. Barkskin + Shield + a +1 large shield + Fullplate + AC mod jewelry = lovely AC. Add to that Expertise (Which yes, a rogue can also take but will discuss that later), and you're looking at 30+.

- The HP is bad. Constitution and Toughness are required just to make a rogue moderately adequate.

- AB is bad. Again it's the "Anything rogue can do others do better". Fighters get huge BAB. Rangers the same + Favored enemy. Throw down buffing potions and a Fighter, Barbarian, or anything can laugh in the face of rogue AB.

UMD is -BAD-. Listen. I know everyone swears by it. And a lot of times yes, it is great, but it can fail as said previously. That one crucial dispel wand, or that one imperative invis wand use, bam. Fail. Dead Rogue.

Take one level 1 Sorc or Wizard and you're infinitely in the clear, just can't use Divine healing wands  (And lets face it. There's enough quest drop loot that gives you healing potions and wand like items. Wands aren't imperative)

Sneak Damage is good. Yes. Very. But guess what-

All this talk about Capricious' Rogue, Bailey was around at the peak of the Nightriser plots. The poor thing did nil on so many occasions because of immunity. As for non-immune, You can typically get off one sneak attack before what ever you hit turns to slap you in the face. Sneaking is -great- in circumstance.

Rogues are -great- in circumstance.

That being said-  It's still my favorite damn class in EFU and I will keep on playing them regardless of these faults. Simply because Rogue RP is stellar.

I agree that it's foolish to have so many threads open, but just throwing down my 2 cents as the biggest rogue fan in EFU.

[Egon the Monkey]

you forgot traps.

Anyone can crossclass trap skills, so "skills" covers that. My best offensive trapper was a wizard who liked creating a minefield and fireballing mobs as they walked into it :D.

Better to have vague blathering on about ideas/weaknesses in one thread, rather than where it'll drag a suggestion off topic and kill it. I don't have any clear suggestions, you see.

Actually, I do wonder what a rogue can do that a ranger can't do too, plus more. Maybe not as well, but definitely Good Enough.  Stealth (and great stealth in the wilds), traps (Set Trap is class, though not Disable. However 5 Set gives +2 Disable, and you can cross it), wands (100% chance), detection (and better detection vs FE). Not as much dmg as Sneak, but it's still +2 vs FE and you have your Companion to back you up. Plus more HP. Ok, you can't evade spells, but then you can cast L2 Insulation as a L1 spell.

On my last pure ranger I'd crossclassed to a useable level of Persuade and Open Lock too as 4 SP a level is a decent amount. In fact, thinking about it, I played Utucha like most players do a Rogue, the difference being he was dangerous in a straight up fight.

RwG, do you think it'd be better if there were more circumstances where rogues can be useful, or ways for rogues to rely less on the perfect setup? More AB, hit point bonuses, 10-20% Concealment to represent dodging, like Barbs get their DI? +1 damage vs unsneakables per level?

[Disco]

Rogues are fine. Really they are! If any class should get a buff its fighter.

[Dr Dragon]

Caddies admitted the only reason he made Craddock a Wizard rather then a rogue is because rogues suck. He then went on to say if Craddock had been a pure rogue he wouldn't have been the criminal he is today.

[Disco]

All these dumb arguments that rogues should have good ac is silly. Really a fighter in a fullplate should have better ac any day of the week compared to a rogue in his undies.

[Egon the Monkey]

All these dumb arguments that rogues should have good ac is silly. Really a fighter in a fullplate should have better ac any day of the week compared to a monk in his undies.

Does the logic still hold? AC's odd anyway. A set of plate won't stop you getting hit, it will however stop you getting hurt. Stepping out the blow stops you getting hit. I've always preferred how games like Fallout handled things where AC and DR were both facets of armors.

Pure Fighters I agree have a bad time of it in PVP from the lack of wand access and in RP from their lack of support or social abilities. Anywhere else, they still accomplish their aim perfectly. To whit, Crushing Faces With Their Weapon of Choice. I think they could be helped by giving them more EFUSS points to round the PC out with social/support abilities, and the "military" equivalent of Barbarian/Druid/Ranger Totems. Or scripted fighter bonuses from L5 onwards that give some small bonuses to detection, taunt, social skills or other skills multiclassing is used for.

[Divine Intervention]

RwG UMD is -easy- to get to the required standard for most wands on a rogue.  Lots of skill points, 12 cha likely, eagles splendour, one or two bits of umd gear.  Even on a barb rogue with no gear I could easily work a lesser dispel wand.

[petey512]

My level 5 rogue with skill focus H/MS, Stealthy, Mushroom Fiber Armour (+2 H/MS) and invisibility got death attacked by a random goblin assassin. Immediately failed the fort save and became paralyzed. Died in the next four rounds.

It'd be sweet if a rogue focused on stealth could actually get by this kind of thing.

The point I'm making is that I have terrible luck with rogues. It doesn't matter how much you invest in something, you're probably going to fail it at a vital moment. That's arguably true for any class, but I'm pretty sure that the above scenario probably wouldn't have happened to any other class. Wizards, sorcerors, rangers, fighters- all would have been saved by something. A wizard and sorceror in the wild will usually be buffed pretty well- enough to avoid the first crippling strike. Rangers and fighters probably would have passed the fort save to avoid being paralyzed. My rogue was screwed the moment she was hit.

In spite of countless situations where being a pure rogue, (or nearly pure rogue,) has ended my character's goals and dreams, (Most including not dying to every average joe goblin with death attack,) I still love playing rogues for the RP factor, and will continue to do so. That doesn't address the mechanical issue though, so I'll propose this:

H/MS sucks really bad. I've only seen it work for a small group of PCs, Bailey Bhonn being one, and as I understand it, Capricious gave her skill focuses in H/MS and stealthy, and also probably owned a lot of rogue gear that helped with that. Even then I've heard that holding a torch will pretty much help you spot anything- basically gives a -10 hide to anyone in the vicinity. 2 Points in spot is enough to prevent a rogue focused on stealth to get the jump on you, is also something I've heard.

Here's an idea- PURE rogues get an automatic + 5-10 H/MS on top of everything else. It kind of sucks when I'm trying to be stealthy and everyone and their goblin assassin can see me.

[Mort]

Boring mechanic discussion.