Animate Dead Items

[Sion Ti'ren]

Animate dead items seem to take up summoning poins when you try to use them while all other summoning items don't.
 
Resulted in an item I have not being able to be used by me because I don't have the summoning points.
 
(the specific item is useable only by ranger, bard, barbarian or Sorc... only Sorc would have the points to use it and would need to be a high level Sorc)
 
I'm pretty sure its a bug that animate dead items take up points while all other summoning items do not.

[HalflingMaurauder]

It isn't a bug. It's made that way because necromancers have no real other way to shine, as unless they play clerics most will never be able to cast the spell itself!   They also take up a lot of points because animation is not exactly a simple  art!

If you want to be able to animate like a pro, take caster levels and spell focus: Necromancy.

[Sion Ti'ren]

that makes no sense.
 
Firstly the item has class restrictions so it CAN NOT be used by a cleric (or wizard). My bard is a necromancer and has "no real way to shine" since he has to rely on scrolls or items to animate dead, but I can't do it because it requires excessive points (while a summon Monser 4 spell scroll does not require points)
 
secondly conjuration is a complicated art, yet I can freely use a level 9 spell scroll to summon a dragon or something. Taking up a lot of points is fine, the issue is that other sumoning items do not take up points so either all items should take points (which would suck) or all items should not take up points (which is how it is, except for animate dead)
 
I'm pretty sure that this is a bug because other wise it is forcing all necromancers to be clerics
 

If you want to be able to animate like a pro, take caster levels and spell focus: Necromancy.

I have caster levels (bard) and I have spell focus Necromancy. but its not enough.
(again, I can still use summon monster 9 from an item if I had one, which is FAR more powerfull/complex)

[Cruzel]

Firstly, no average joe is going to get anything with summon 9. Maybe a dedicated conjurer who absolutely rocks faces could get some higher level summoning loot/scrolls, but they aren't just going to hand out powerful things to any old schmoe.


Second, How many bard levels do you have?  AFAIK a bard still gets the 10 pts a level, so having 4 levels or more and SF:Necromancy should be enough to let you animate one corpse.

Even so, TBH I can't really imagine any PC under level 6 being experienced enough to animate the dead. (Aside from clerics which is kind of dumb but w/e!)

So If your complaint is that a low level PC cannot summon a powerful creature that lasts  almost forever and persists through rests,  I really don't see why you think it is justified! Animation is a big deal and not for hte inexperienced, 'Nuff said.


Also, try GSF.

[Sion Ti'ren]

first point was an over exagerated example, its an item, the power is coming from the item. yes a level 9 summon item would be a powerfull item, but the point was that it has no relevence to the characters caster levels, so why should animate dead?
 
As for the bards thing, bards get half summoning points (10 every 2 levels) so I need to be level 8 and have GSF necro to do it. but thats besides the point. my complaint isn't about that, infact I'm not really complaining, you both seem to have missed the point that it seems to be a bug.
 
I seriously doubt that an item useable only by barbarians to animate dead was intentionally designed so barbarian's can't use it.
 
I understand that animate dead is a powerfull spell, and yes. The item I have is a powerfull item. but the magic is coing from the item, so my summoning points shouldn't be factored into it. If that was the case, then all summoning items should also take up summoning points.
 

Even so, TBH I can't really imagine any PC under level 6 being experienced enough to animate the dead. (Aside from clerics which is kind of dumb but w/e!)

again, the magic is coming from the item, if a level 1 mage had a time stop scroll he would be able to use it, not because of his power but because of the item's power.
 

Animation is a big deal and not for hte inexperienced, 'Nuff said.

Stopping time is also a big deal, but if I stummble across an ITEM that can do it, my being experianced goes out of the window since the power is coming from the item, same with animate dead items.
 
and again, I'm not expecting to see timestop items lieing around, just using it as an exagerated example to prove the point.

 
there seems to be a system where items ignore the summoning points but are capped at only 1 summon at a time so none casters can use them, animate dead items for some reason do not follow this system. I'm pretty sure this is a mistake. probablys something missed in the coding.
 
AKA a bug.

[Skrillix]

Animate Dead items allow you to animate multiple summons.

[Cruzel]

The point of the matter is the magic may be coming from the item, but it still requires lots of skill to maintain control. Hence the summoning points. Not only do the items allow you to summon more than one, undead require much more skill than normal conjuration to create and control I would say, as the magic is stronger!

Anyways, your overly exaggerated examples don't really prove a point, because they are just that -Exaggerated, and haven o bearing on common occurances.  No low level is going to find themselves with a summon 9 or a timestop item. If a PC ever does, you can bet your ass they are going to be a level 8 + PC who rocks faces.

A summoning spell does not require as much skill to control, as you're not controling it for as long. Conjuration is much simpler inherently than animation as well! So that is somewhat of a poor arguement.


It makes perfect sense IMO that animation items use points, otherwise we would have no cool necromancers.  GSF: Necromancer significantly lowers the point cost, but as it is a level 4-5 BARD PC is probably not going to be able to animate that well.

Seriously, think about it. You're a BARD, not even a real mage. Your magic is a supplement, not a practice you devote yourself wholly to like a wizard or to a lesser extent a sorcerer.
 

animate dead items for some reason do not follow this system. I'm pretty sure this is a mistake. probablys something missed in the coding.

I am 100% sure this is intentional. This isn't a bug, It's common sense for the most part.

[artfuldodger99]

A bug still exists here i have a casting PC with 10+ spellcraft yet when i use an animate dead 1/day item it says i have 0 summoning points.

[Sion Ti'ren]

The point of the matter is the magic may be coming from the item, but it still requires lots of skill to maintain control.

where as an item that casts summon creature 5 (such items do exist) requires no skill to maintain control? summon creature 5 is a higher level spell, stronger magic.
 
the issue is that the items are functioning as spells rather than as items, while other summoning items do function as items rather than as spells. it makes no sense that conjuration items require no skill to maintain control, while necromancy items need summoning points, that makes no sense at all. and why is necromancy more complex than conjuration? what about planar binding?
 

Anyways, your overly exaggerated examples don't really prove a point, because they are just that -Exaggerated, and haven o bearing on common occurances. No low level is going to find themselves with a summon 9 or a timestop item. If a PC ever does, you can bet your ass they are going to be a level 8 + PC who rocks faces.

ok, same argument only with a scroll of summon monster 6, its possible to get and its more powerfull magic than animate dead. your also connecting loot to levels, which is rediculous, look at Proverson. Or even the fact that my level 4 character has a 1 use per day animate dead item.
 

A summoning spell does not require as much skill to control, as you're not controling it for as long. Conjuration is much simpler inherently than animation as well! So that is somewhat of a poor arguement.

I have no idea why necromancy is more difficult than conjuration. so I can control a dragon without any skill but I can't control a zombie?
 

It makes perfect sense IMO that animation items use points, otherwise we would have no cool necromancers. GSF: Necromancer significantly lowers the point cost, but as it is a level 4-5 BARD PC is probably not going to be able to animate that well.

So, I'm not aloud to be a cool necromancer bard? the items arn't that easy to get as it is. are you saying to be a cool necromancer you MUST be a cleric?
 

Seriously, think about it. You're a BARD, not even a real mage. Your magic is a supplement, not a practice you devote yourself wholly to like a wizard or to a lesser extent a sorcerer.

I'm a bard with a powerfull magical item (which is not even useable by wizards).
 
Again the point.
 
the issue is that the items are functioning as spells rather than as items, while other summoning items do function as items rather than as spells.

[Mort]

Before you continue this debate, It is a bug.

Thank you for participating.