High level quests - Loot tabls

[VanillaPudding]

Would it be possible to have someone review the chests / loot on many of the high end quests? I feel as if over the years they have become very bloated with "flavor" objects that are literally never used. On a few recent attempts I have noticed many chests contain the same thing, such as "11gp, pipeweed, roots, etc" These quests aren't really easy, they take a lot of time in general OOCly, and it is also setting a trend of most level 8+ folks just sitting around waiting for a DM event to happen. Further:

   
• Potions are spawning in singles most times rather than in any sort of stack, which when trying to help resupply any sort of group is a little crazy
• Potion variety has diminished in chests
• Most if not all "static" drops of supply type things seem to have been removed
• Gold amounts have been vastly decreased, removing the argument that "player trade" should support supplies rather than questing

At the end of the day, quests should be there for entertainment, a scripted challenge, and a means to gain some supplies or gold when the story side of things is busy/on hold. Nobody desires the BLOAT of EFU:M, but it would be nice to see a little more out of the scripted content in order to support people leaving the hub to see the vast world that has been built!

[zDark Shadowz]

Yeah that's probably why I've gravitated toward RSD's and spellslingers... I just don't really like playing classes that rely heavily on consumable stuff the server gives randomly.

I know there are people that somehow obtain absurd amounts of Heal Potions, stoneskin etc but that's never been the case for me through the years I've played in this chapter. Collecting consumables from the stray nyth or will-o-wisp or dunwarren cargo is really where I've been getting the potions for my barbarians.

[Damien]

I really don't see what the issue was with supplies in EFUM. People still died often and no one ever lost to a lack of supplies, unless it was during some duel with an npc.

I would much prefer it back to what it was, and I would agree with Darkshadowz's findings. People are all RSDs because they don't need to worry about supplies, the question is do the dms want that?

[Howlando]

Not interested in rehashing age old discussions about EFUR vs EFUM supply levels but I think we're more than happy to take a look at tweaking things if needed. If there's a specific quest where it feels like the risk/reward is off, feel free to let us know. As far as I know no one has made any meaningful changes to loot tables in a long time but I can double check and remove any "flavor" items that might still be popping up (Ye Olde Infamous Purple Lado items, for example, if any still appear).

If people want to have a more general discussion about "supply levels" in EFU feel free to make a second thread, we'll be happy to listen, although I am somewhat skeptical about it being so hard when it still seems like most character's inventories are filled to bursting with high level stuff. But for now keep this thread to useful suggestions for what quests need specific tweaking.

[The Samophlange]

A lot of the high level quests I can think of suffer from either a lack of decent rewards or a lot of random clutter in their loot tables that means the rewards can be highly inconsistent. As a few examples:


Rotlands has a very minimal reward of items at the end, but it is offset by placeables with (temporary? It's been a while) consumables on a search check and a gold payout at the end. As it is, without a rogue/ranger it is a little skewed in being unrewarding to a full sized group.


Orogs could use a little more gold inside of the keep and maybe a little less onthe npc payout, as groups that don't take the bounty elsewhere can have some serious bad luck. It also seems to drop a lot of dragon themed items with a power that doesn't do anything? I don't know if these are related to an ongoing thing but people seem to largely ignore them.


The first part of Seers is pretty well balanced in terms of loot, but the reward after the boss has a really huge drop table and often seems to kick out a lot of garbage. Might just be bad luck on my end but I rarely find it worth doing, which is a shame because the content is really enjoyable.


I think more quests could stand to be modeled after Sahaguin and the Beholder cave. Both quests are pretty good about dropping small stacks of potions, relevant and flavorful gear, and small additional sums of gold that add a significant portion to the overall payout. The worst feeling is when you complete a hard quest that took a decent amount of supply and look over the small pile of things at the end and realize it is mostly useless to everybody, not even just the people in your group.

[Mia]

In general, relic guardian relics and dragon themed items are best reserved to have their own loot container. (Or lado items for that matter)
There is allot of gear that is so incredibly specific, that you'd practically have to make a character beforehand just to make use of it. (OUB; Cleric of eilistraee bastard swords? I mean come on..) Everyone can use saving throw items, everyone can use ac items, everyone can use magic bags, where are the nymph cloaks or the amulets of health? Also, bards and clerics have it particularly hard, when it comes to specialized gear for them.

Rotlands has allot of consumable backliner objects, which had their charges reduced in exchange for losing their temporary status. They now last past a reset. (finding them requires someone with search, and that just fine) Rotlands has a good gold pay out at the quest bubble, too much, I would argue. I'd much rather see more equipment boxes. There is only three, right now.

The Beholder cave is the worst quest I know reward wise. It has a ridiculous amount of experience that makes the whole level eight and up experience too fast. Besides one particular ring, a Squishy stone and high end relic guardian relics, there is very little reason to do it. Kobolds in the mines often has better rewards. Only if the ring drops and you happen to get it, has this quest ever felt rewarding. This quest should have containers for consumables and containers for equipment. So you can always get at least some of each.

Seers (The Sunken Crypt) is always a gamble on the loot. The bookcases can have useful things like potions of death ward/rare scrolls (but not too rare anymore), or hook horror powder/indescribable tome/rags flavour items. The little black boxes are the treasures that are the most random. From an excellent amulet and magical bags (Everyone loves those) to pitiful drow gear I rarely see anyone use to single potions or worse. This wouldn't be so bad if there were some specialized supply crates at the end. The three hero loot containers are always a gamble. From specific things like swords of Cyric to powerful rings of universal saves, to weak things like golem fumes or even worse; 1/6th of a set.

I think more quests could be modeled after Vera, which has an incredibly good balance between supplies, mage-orientated treasure and various bosses with their own unique treasure tables. As much lore items are in it for you too find, you won't ever find it in a boss reward box. (Though this quest should be level ten max, not nine)

[putrid_plum]

The set loot in hero loot table is a serious issue, I've always been firm that they are a waste of space for the EXTREMELY RARE character that uses one and lets be honest rare is probably being modest.  If sets are wanted then make them far easier to get so people can you know, USE THEM.


The loot on some of these quests are so bad because some are from EFU1.  Maybe some old quests should just fade out in favor of new quest content.  I can think of two quests right off the top, Sand Crypt and Beholders, that could just be taken away.  I'd personally rather see new quest content more in line with the server power and setting than some rehash of nostalgia.  Then new loot can be made instead of trying to fix / balance  12 year old loot / quests.


Maybe another player driven quest design contest can be done like in EFU:A which was really fun and great for community moral I think.  If the DM team is to busy to make new quest content.

[Howlando]

OK, I've made some changes.

But before I do, allow me to comment that I see EFU at its best when life is a constant struggle at all levels, that not every quest is a guarantee  to break even, and where even the most powerful character will dig in the dirt to find the dirty old bones that might just help them survive their next epic challenge. Often times "trash items" are there just to make the chances of that one good item appearing that much less likely.


It would also be nice if players let us know when things feel too rewarding because it can be frustrating to, with limited time, try to keep the game world balanced.

1) Fortress Khun loot table tweaked/improved slightly and a reinforced gold chest added at the end to help out with bigger groups.
2) Rotlands loot table tweaked/improved slightly, however I still think the quest is best when it favors those characters with high search willing to dig around. Extra chest added.
3) Seers loot table is indeed highly randomized and has not changed for many years. I've added a per/person "extra gold" at quest completion and a reinforced chest at the end to help with larger groups. I'll note here that when it's a quest bubble end gold reward just assume it was extra gold found along the way even if it doesn't really make sense.
4) I've tweaked some of the Seers items also.
5) Beholders end quest XP reduced, thank you for alerting us to that. Let us know if it still seems too high.
6) Also added a per person gold bonus for beholders although TBH I don't think it should be the kind of quest that is routinely being done anyway. I also edited some of the items in the loot table to be more useful.
7) I've taken a look at the module-wide rare&unique chest (commonly known as "Hero" loot) to try to brush up on some of the items, I expect players will notice a lot of changes there.

[The Samophlange]

I actually think that a certain amount of flavor loot is perfectly fine. Sahuagin quest, one of my examples of what I think is a really well designed quest in terms of payout vs. difficulty, has a number of pure flavor items and lesser versions of items that can sometimes make runs less rewarding. I think that is perfectly fine, and obviously through items catering towards different builds you will always have runs that are less profitable than others.


What it really comes down to is trying to find the good ratio of having a quest being rewarding enough to be worth doing without being too flush with goods. While challenging quests are fun if they are too difficult or costly you create the feeling where players have to relentlessly crush quests over and over to try and make small gains to their overall supply.


In the past beholders was definitely over tuned in terms of exp but I know it had recently been reduced. It is pretty good about dropping a mix of potions and odd consumables mixed with loot, some of more obvious value than others. It is one of my favorite quests in the module overall because of the nice mixture of mechanical challenge and rewards.


But, overall thanks for listening to our feedback and looking into things.

[VanillaPudding]

I understand that some of these were recently looked at, but they still are massively unrewarding compared to what is -required- to put into them. I'll be a little more specific:


Beholders: Xp is low, I think maybe 10 cure -moderate- potions dropped, a relic that no one would ever use dropped, and some other trash

Seers: No potions are in chests excluding maybe a single greater insulation or the infamous 10 stack of cure -moderate- wounds - Boss is too difficult for overall quest / reward

Sahuagin: Mostly trash in the chests, or flavor loot, call it what you will. Once again, very few -potions- drop and 90% of EVERYTHING found is left on the ground.


Exigent: Can't find it to judge it anymore, please don't make it move around


Rotlands: very draining. Most of the things disappear after a reset and the few things that remain no one is interested in. Sorry purifier. Gold reward nerfed too hard to make anyone endure the 3 loot chests it offers. "Invasion" room
is broken and effectively brings all "corners" and more at once rather than how it functioned in original design. XP low for duration / effort


Distant Shore: Pillars are bugged, otherwise mostly balanced







Gold rewards added to quests: Great and all, but they are far less than the original amounts and do not help in any form. Seeing a sum of 100 gold / character looks great from one angle, but pays for 2 cure serious or whatever on another, and far more is used to just do the quests.


In short, there is a massive drop-off in static rewards at levels 9 and 10, and within a few quests and one "spiced" event, you'll be out of supplies and gold. Reliance upon PC brewers has proven over years that it is not worthwhile, and these quests should really have a chance to be either rewarding / equal to cost rather than just a drain on everything except gold. There will ALWAYS be some group that pops up and smashed your static content to an abusive level, but please punish them rather than the playerbase as a whole :)

[Stranger]

I always thought supply scarcity at the soft cap was a deliberate design decision.

That's not really the case anymore, of course. Substantial options and benefits have been added since the beginning of EFU:R. It boggles my mind to think that people view our current payouts as unrewarding relative to difficulty. Am I playing on the same server that we're talking about? Starting runs at Rotland or Clownland to get dissipating consumables, which are then used on other high end quests, is an efficient primer. The Formians will give you all the insulation and healing you need to brave the crypt. Shaggaland is not for everyone, but there's more than one powerful RSD template in town. Sahuagin can be quick and dirty gold if you have a rogue, costing a strong group virtually nothing. Three Fang Keep doesn't give the gold or experience it used to, but it's still a tidy profit if you can deal with the big hitters quickly.

I know with certainty that Miriam Staudenmaier's strike team routinely crushed all content in the top bracket without breaking a sweat. We'd have to ask efu1984 to give a disposition, but they definitely seemed to have a consistent net gain in supplies even before Howlando increased the rewards. Is that a consequence of their magic-heavy composition (bard/paladin/fighter/cleric)? Do you think that they represent an unnatural standard for activity or character builds? Or is there something else that I do not understand about their situation?

Even personally, I cannot think of any character who struggled to maintain consumables because of quest content. I am not the most mechanically gifted player, but even at late levels, I am normally able to rely on the support casters in a group (if i am not that support caster) for the bulk of my buffs/healing needs. I only need my stock for emergencies—when things get fun because someone cocked up—and that's more than sustainable. PvP or the old BigOrcMan death crawls have been the only big spenders for me.

That said, while I reach level nine often enough, I've only touched level ten once.

It is true that the monster AI has changed since the beginning of EFU:R, and that it's common to see hordes rush to the front of an area rather than find themselves staggered out like design intended. This is most prominently experienced in the Smudgescale Warrens—if the barricade placeables have been destroyed by a previous party, several rooms of kobolds will swarm over the current group all at once. I think that dramatically affected the cost and risk of some quests. I don't have data to say much on how.

[Kinslayer988]

I think since we are moving out of quest loot drops and into questing philosophy we should move that talk to the new thread in general discussion