Be ruthless...

[Kiaring]

I am not questioning whether FD was right from an OOC standpoint. Not questioning whether it was justifiable IC.

I am questioning whether it was a smart decision for the people involved. In Character.

I hope what I'm trying to propose as a discussion becomes clearer. If we always fall back on the "oh, no rules were broken" and "oh, no OOCness took place", we will always be right. And always be re-rolling our characters every month.

[sylvyrdragon]

I tend to agree that "FD" should be the last step in a great build-up of conflict.  It should be used if and when the 'story' demands it to be.

I personally think that in this case that is pretty much where we were at.  The Son's and Stygains had (and still are) battling back and forth.
The Stygains would hit the Son's and the Son's would hit back, or vice versa.  After being part of this for a few weeks, I could really see no other way for this to go.

Am I saddened that we lost some excellent and epic characters? Yes
Am I saddened to think that the conflict is going to die down some? Yes
But, do I see any other way this could have gone?  No

Personally, I think each case must be judged on their own.

[Jayde Moon]

Be Babe Ruthless!



I think Kiaring makes some good points here.  Others do to.

I'd like to caution that "It's totally IC" can easily become a cop-out.  Nearly everything your character does stems from what you WANT them to do.  It's what YOU think you would do if you were in THEIR situation.  Sometimes, it pays to ask yourself, "This is something this character would do... but is it the ONLY thing this character would do?" and explore options.  Especially in the interest of more epic storytelling.

[Nihm]

Jayde Moon is incredibly ruthless to the buffs of his own allies

[Cerberus]

I agree with Jade...
 
It seems there is no real issue with one on one duels as most players tend to set ground rules prior to begining the PvP (unless it's some type of assassination). So the problem is in the pitch battles and all out wars. So I guess it boils down to...
 
A) If you don't want your PC to end up in the fugue by some random FD leave the area (because all it takes is one player, even if the other 20 are on subdual). If you stick around for the battle dont get upset if you end up fugue'd and looted.
B) If the PvP action is more than 1 on 1 feel free to randomly FD any PC on either "side" all you like without guilt saying "My PC is a cold hearted bastard that likes to kill" or "My PC judged your PC worthy of death"...
 
Without an official rulling by the powers that be, that's pretty much the summation of all that has been written in this thread.

[12 Hatch]

I understand where you're coming from, and I think the point about not overdoing full-damage killings is valid.  You don't want the server to turn into an arena server with no real intrigue.

That said, there's also another side to the coin.  Stygian soldiers and Docks rebels fighting gruesome, bloody battles in a lawless no-man's-land territory, with magical explosions, stabbings, summons, and a psychotic woman throwing lightning bolts?

It would feel silly if no one died, honestly, from such a chaotic and deadly scene.  I rather like the idea of those proclaiming neutrality running for cover from the bloodshed, rather than sitting around watching it like a high school fist-fight!

There might be less FD killings if bystanders showed a reasonable amount of fear and ran for cover!

[DollarPhil]

I rather like the idea of those proclaiming neutrality running for cover from the bloodshed, rather than sitting around watching it like a high school fist-fight!

I believe this is an argument for TN Necromancers with liberally distributed Fear spells, myself.

[Cerberus]

Perhaps a rulling could be made something on the lines of...
 
1) Keep it all subdual
2) Those PC's subdued are considered near death (as in need of an ER or magic healing), (stay down!)
3) The winning sides "leaders" can deside if there are any worth attempting to heal and take prisoner, finnish off with a killing (FD) blow or leave laying there and let the fates deside if they live or die.
 
 
That's how I'm going to be playing battle PvP.

[12 Hatch]

While I think I agree with your general sentiment about not overdoing it, sword fights are dangerous.  When people start stabbing each other, someone might well die.  Where's the fun in knowing you'll survive?  It's the characters who take big risks that everyone remembers, and there isn't a risk unless something terrible can happen to you!

Amber bravely attacked a Stygian soldier in a tense life-or-death situation, and was slain for it.  That seems reasonable!

[Cerberus]

I'm not talking about Amber in particular, I'm talking in general. I'm fine with Ambers death or dying then and there. I would feel even better about it if after all was said and done the winning side said "No prisoners, make sure they're all dead." or "Heal Aulgrim, bind him and bring him to X we're going to torture him, kill the rest." This would not only have let me (the player) see the rest of the action as aposed to standing in the fugue with my thumb up my butt. It would have let other players/PC's make a bid for the lives of the fallen PC's involved rather than the judgement of a single player/PC when dozens are involved.
 
Hell it could even then be left to those that are going around doing the killing blows, some PC's might think to themselves "Gee, this PC healed me more than once [fakes the killing blow behind the leaders back]" You never know how things could RP out in this manner (possibilities are endless).
In going FD in these situations there is only one outcome for the fallen, no RP, fugue, log (=not fun).

[DollarPhil]

Well, unless you have y'know, buddies who'll sneak your corpse out in the confusion and get you ressed. I've done that in at least one mass PVP, and seen it happen a couple of times. Also, there's plenty of reasons IC for a straight FD. Not most of the time, but if for example:
Your PC thinks he's going to to die if captured, and wants to take as many enemies with him as he can.
Huge battles like the bog war.
Personal grudges (E.g. sneaking around at a duel/PVP because you're gunning for one PC your char hates)
Solving upcoming arguments (I know X is going to argue for letting her go, so I'm going to kill that PC now, and tell X "And? she's dead now")

However, FDing chars you don't have any rivalry with because they pitched in against you strikes me as fairly lame unless they're clearly trying to kill your PC. "They got him/took it, and we couldn't stop them" is cooler than "They got the loot, and killed every PC currently opposing them for even temporary reasons"

[Jayde Moon]

Yes, Nihm, I am pretty 1337 at selfpwn.

Anyway, I don't think anyone's looking for a 'ruling' here or something like that.  Just a plea from the OP to 'consider' your options.

[12 Hatch]

Unfortunately, that would turn each bout into a winner-takes-all fight.  Even if the Sons, for example, lose a pitched battle, it makes sense that attrition exists and they'll take down a Stygian supporter or two.  If you have to subdue everyone, that means the inferior force has no chance!

[sylvyrdragon]

The easiest way to handle this, is to sit back a moment and think.. "Is this the best way for this story to end?  Is it time for this leg of the story to end?"  If you can not easily and without hesitation say "Yes." Then it is time to stick with Subduel damage.

Or maybe... send a 'tell' to the other side, and ask.. "Are you OK with FD here?"

I'll admit I have yet to have a character die to PvP, or not a 'rightful' ending.  I can understand how in some cases it would seem to soon, or unfullfilling.  But, I guess it's a risk you take when you decided to go that route.  

Let's face it, none of us like to lose a character we are enjoying.  If it be to PvP or any other factor of the game.  But, sometimes we just have to 'suck it up and deal'.

[Letsplayforfun]

2) Those PC's subdued are considered near death (as in need of an ER or magic healing), (stay down!)

FyI this is how it is supposed to be already.

Anyone subdued and not staying down unless either a DM or the winning side tells him to get up is cheating, and encourages FD on the server.

EVEN IF YOUR BUDDIES HEAL YOU, which they shouldn't unless there's spawns nearby that might actually fugue you, which is mostly an OOC thing.

EVEN if the fight has run off to another area.

If in doubt, send a tell to the guy that subdued you, to make sure.

As for subdual: i look at it this way:

Subdual means you're as dead. Left for dead. Not just knocked out (that's why there's a sparring mode). Buddies don't waste healing on dead people. They pick them up and bring them for a raise if the battlefield allows them to.

It's not hard to imagine you think you're enemie's dead, and just leave him to rot. Then that bad guy somehow survives his wounds and comes back into the story. (ex: Anakin)

FD means you're making sure he's dead: assassination, dealing the kiling stroke on purpose, slaughtering the wounded after a fight, etc.

As for the OP, it brings up a valide point that sometimes arises when using FD, imo: storytelling use vs. ICly ok.

You can't blame people for FDing properly, but it does sometimes put a stop to some stories we would've like to hear more of. It just happens, it's hard when you're pvping to keep it in mind.