Review: Disabled Parties

[Drakill Tannan]

It has some minor set backs, such as making healing allies and sending tells a bit more annoying, and a big set back: not being able to see the stealthed buddy. And doesn't have any truly relevant pluses: reduce metagaiming only, wich i personally don't care much about (i do think you guys care too much about it).

But i don't really mind it. It's the same really. Keep it or take it, i'm fine with either.

[Snoteye]

Disclaimer: Much as I would like, I can't claim my post is unbiased. It happens that I think this was a very poor management decision and although I have tried to keep this post relatively neutral it does, to an extent, reflect my point of view. For instance, I have claimed that trap behaviour cannot be modified. This is not true -- trap behaviour can be modified, and even easily. However, it can only be done in one way and there is absolutely no good excuse for doing so (it involves editing 30+ unique scripts, some of you will understand but I'm not going to explain here why that's bad).

A lot of work -- good work -- has gone into this change, but we do not want you to suck up (in fact, it can get really annoying to see you praise every single little change and event because it can make the serious stuff seem less significant). Nevertheless, what has been attempted... well, I'm inclined to say it's impossible -- or at least, should be.

Now, I have a suspicion, I'm sure due to my cynical nature, that the majority's initial reaction is a direct result of the idea that lots of time invested + visually drastic changes = great. Part of me wants to be wrong, but either way, that is not the right attitude. Look beyond the pretty lights, not to the things that do work, but to the things that don't work, and ask yourself if the price is still worth it.

Below are some of the indisputable facts (see above about my comment on trap behaviour) resulting from the disabling of parties. You will have to decide for yourself whether you believe these to be pros or cons.

• All map metagaming has been eliminated. Same with hovering the cursor over a party member's portrait.However, in some cases the map serves as a legitimate extension of senses otherwise penalised by engine limitations (e.g. far-clipping and 90^o FoV). It is not purely an OOC convenience tool as it has been made out to be.
  
• Disease/poison/Con penalty status metagaming has been eliminated. Incidentally, anyone who has been on the infested sewer quest of EfU knows that constantly emoting this is about as interesting and deep as emoting breathing, in part because the same two spells cure all common ailments.
• You can't judge a character's approximate power level by comparing their HP with class abilities.
• While in a party, the engine sends the same data to all members. This is done for all members, leading to an exponential amount of data being sent back and forth all the time. This causes lag when there are several large (~8 man) parties, in particular during large scale events. However, it is never a problem during normal server load and that's probably 95% or more of our uptime, and breaking up large parties into many small parties helps a lot. The mere presence of many creatures (including NPCs), as illustrated recently, also causes severe lag on its own regardless of parties.
  
• Combat information from other people will not show up in your log anymore. Personally, this is something I find extremely confusing for what little combat I've seen since the change but some people seem to think it's a good idea.
• You can't target party members via their portraits. This does not discourage OOC communication, it just makes it more tedious to handle. It also plays a smaller role in combat.
• Everything takes longer because you need to relay a lot of information the engine previously handled automatically.
• OOC chat has not diminished. In fact, I suspect there is more of it now, and certainly much more in the Talk channel. The fact that the Party channel broadcasts to the DM channel is not for you to worry about, we can filter it out with two clicks. On the other hand, some have claimed it has also led to deeper RP.
• Animal Empathy will not stop an already attacked creature from attacking. This is faction related and cannot be changed.
• Traps target everyone and must be flagged to be sure the whole party can see them. This behaviour cannot be changed (for instance, to only target hostile PCs). Due to the somewhat clumsy nature of NWN's location reporting and perfectly square traps this can make traps so ineffective as to be useless. Their behaviour towards NPCs has not changed, nor will it.
• The loss of a designated party leader introduces a slew of logistical problems, including, but not limited to:
[hide="Listy"]
• Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?
• Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?
• What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?
• What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?
• Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?
• What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?
• What if someone decides to abandon a quest?
• What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?
• What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?
• What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?
• What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?
• Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?
• With proximity based XP, do archers and spellcasters get shafted? If not, what's the point?
[/hide]

• It has become extremely difficult for a group of stealthed characters to move as a unit.
• The system is counter-intuitive and inconvenient. It resembles a hak -- something we have been fundamentally against since launch almost four years ago -- in that it isn't optional. It causes confusion amongst new and old players alike (I've seen several cases of people not understanding the purpose of the ally list, and I didn't at first either); relies on tedious chat commands (with no copy or history, even the shortest chat command becomes tedious); and won't work for characters with non-English symbols in their names (something NWN otherwise supports). Make a single mistake, either spelling or proximity, and you'll have to retype the command.
• A perfectly functional, self-maintaining system, quick and easy to use and learn, has been replaced with an error-prone, unoptimized (arguably, unoptimizable) system with a much steeper learning curve and a bunch of unanswered questions. This has nothing to do with the author -- I certainly couldn't do it myself. That's just the fickle nature of NWScript and NWN in multiplayer.

Two points that have been highlighted as being in favour of this change are

• elimination of gank squads; and
• immersion

I do not see this change doing anything for either of these two points. There will be metagaming as long as there are players and the forming of gank squads hasn't gotten any more difficult (it might even have gotten easier in that you no longer invite people), you just can't necessarily tell who's in and who isn't.

As for immersion, I've been getting the feeling over the last half or so year that, on some occasions, it's like a magic word which, when invoked, will excuse any act and even harvest praise (due or undue) from players. This game is a game, it's meant to be fun. If you want to play real life, go outside (careful, Earth's a permadeath server and you have to emote breathing all the time). Point is, we can do so much more to make the game more realistic -- things we have always deliberately ignored (like eating and drinking) -- and only at the price of fun.

Almost a year ago I explained why I don't like mounts. They are big and flashy, and the moment we actually need them is the moment our mod is needlessly bloated. The argument is almost the same here: plenty good things are brought about with this change but ultimately we haven't needed it for seven years and we don't need it now, especially not when it makes the game overly complicated primarily to avoid a few cases of map metagaming. I feel so strongly about this that I can say with absolute certainty that I would have left if I wasn't a DM, and we have already lost some players because of it.

On a side note, I want to explain what [font="Courier New"]/c setally[/font] is. It is not, as many have thought, a replacement of the party system, and so it has no effect on questing. It is a tool to mark specific characters as "allies" of your character such that, when using either of the [font="Courier New"]/c hostile[/font] commands, these characters will not be set hostile. This can be pretty handy, and the good news is that it's fully compatible with the party system. Yes, that means we can keep it no matter what happens now.

[Pup]

I personally find the new system fun and different.  Actually having to keep track of party members on a quest is great, and the first time we lost somebody on a quest it turned out to be quite fun.

I also really like not knowing other party members HP, AB, and such.  As well as them not knowing mine.

I would imagine that it is indeed very difficult to travel in stealth groups, but I also think this could raise some interesting IC solutions and increase planning beforehand.

I have to say overall I am enjoying this change.

[TheImpossibleDream]

While I have had a lot of trouble traveling in stealth or invisibility I tell myself that if I'd invested in enough spot/listen to see my comrade this problem would not exist!

[Letsplayforfun]

Pros and cons have been listed, so it's only a matter of priorities now.

Mine are simple:
1 -If we lost but one player because of this, revert to the old system, else we might lose more.
2-If not, now that the works been done, i rather like the change. There's a few cons, at least two major pros (more communication, less map-metagaming).

I don't think the change was WORTH all the work put into it, but then i wasn't the one doing the work so i don't care much.

PS: concerning the stealth question, i don't like the HIPS way stealthed is used most of the time anyway.

[Meldread]

Snoteye-

Snoteye have you played a PC in the new system?  (Additionally, I think people need to go on at least 5 to 8 quests to really get a feel for it.)  I am unsure of the answer to that question, which is why I ask.  In my experience most people seem to genuinely enjoy it, and although I've encountered a few complaints and OOC bitching, most of that was limited to when it was first introduced.

I don't think most people here are sucking up; I personally voiced what I thought would be issues and problems immediately after it was implemented.  I also gave regular feedback on any issues I thought were created by the change.  Most of those issues have been addressed or worked themselves out automatically.  However, individual playing experience may vary.

I think there is some merit to people who feel that somehow the server feels more "lonely", but ultimately that is something highly subjective.  I still use tells as much as I did in the past, and it was rather easy to switch from using party portraits to send tells to using the online list - as well as the portraits in the chat window.  So it really doesn't feel more "lonely" to me.

My responses on the issues you brought forward:

For instance, I have claimed that trap behaviour cannot be modified. This is not true -- trap behaviour can be modified, and even easily. However, it can only be done in one way and there is absolutely no good excuse for doing so (it involves editing 30+ unique scripts, some of you will understand but I'm not going to explain here why that's bad).

Traps target everyone and must be flagged to be sure the whole party can see them. This behaviour cannot be changed (for instance, to only target hostile PCs). Due to the somewhat clumsy nature of NWN's location reporting and perfectly square traps this can make traps so ineffective as to be useless. Their behaviour towards NPCs has not changed, nor will it.

This is definitely an issue.  However, here is my experience with it so far.  In all the quests that I have gone on and encountered traps my PC has been in the lead.  He has a decent search for a fighter / weapon master, and is able to spot some traps especially while in detect mode.  We move slowly, he stands in front of the group, tells the group where the traps are and then has them follow his footsteps exactly.  It has actually led to more RPing of traps.

However, the major issue dealing with traps is PC's who lay down their own traps.  This is a huge issue, however I think it makes sense in the context of the game engine.  If you lay down a trap, why should anyone (even the trap setter) be able to run across it?  One of the major issues when it came to traps was their power level, and perhaps the rules for player trap setting need to be revised for group situations due to the higher level of risk (which I think adds some balance).

Now, I have not encountered any PC's using traps as of yet.  So I cannot give any first hand experience regarding the issue.  Though due to the strict rules surrounding traps I've found that most PC's simply don't use them at all... so even if everything remains the same the issue is of some concern, but not game breaking concern.

I would however strongly limit the use of killer traps on quests (even eliminating them entirely) and perhaps make search gear more abundant on the server.  As a front liner I have found it VERY effective  for him to be able to spot traps.

All map metagaming has been eliminated. Same with hovering the cursor over a party member's portrait.However, in some cases the map serves as a legitimate extension of senses otherwise penalised by engine limitations (e.g. far-clipping and 90o FoV). It is not purely an OOC convenience tool as it has been made out to be.

Sure, I can agree with this to an extent.  If NWN was in a first person perspective it might be different, but being in third person there are some issues.  My PC SHOULD be able to see farther head of himself than the engine allows.  I can move the camera angle around some though, but that's a pain in the ass with its own problems.

I've had some issues regarding tilesets and running through small “alley way” forest paths.  It's very hard to keep the group together there, although I think that makes sense ICly and is actually more immersive for me.  I enjoyed that, although it can be a slight pain in the OOC ass.

However, some of the engine limitations also relates to NPC's and hostiles.  My PC also shouldn't be able to spot what is directly behind him when he is facing the other direction.  So in the end I think the concern balances itself out with the benefits and limitations already provided by the engine.

Disease/poison/Con penalty status metagaming has been eliminated. Incidentally, anyone who has been on the infested sewer quest of EfU knows that constantly emoting this is about as interesting and deep as emoting breathing, in part because the same two spells cure all common ailments.

I agree about the emoting.  However, in general I have not noticed much change.  Rarely have I been in a group under the old system where, when my PC was diseased or poisoned, people ran over the cure him.  What's more... how would they know?  I find that this is more-or-less balances itself out.  I have been on a quest where the entire group was poisoned horrifically bad.  Only a handful of us had antidotes or any way to remove its effects.  My play experience was not adversely effected by not being able to see their poison / disease status.

You can't judge a character's approximate power level by comparing their HP with class abilities.

A huge benefit in my opinion.  I will willingly admit that when it has come to PvP in the past, I've OOCly used the knowledge of other players HP to gauge their power level, and shyed away from fighting them as a result.  It made me more cautious.  This change to me is just an extension of removing the who's online list from the character selection screen.

Now, I cannot tell what level someone is or how many HP they have.  I am provided with the same benefit.  No one knows if my PC has died and lost six levels and is now ripe for a ganking... nor do they realize that I have been leveling my ass off and I am level nine.

While in a party, the engine sends the same data to all members. This is done for all members, leading to an exponential amount of data being sent back and forth all the time. This causes lag when there are several large (~8 man) parties, in particular during large scale events. However, it is never a problem during normal server load and that's probably 95% or more of our uptime, and breaking up large parties into many small parties helps a lot. The mere presence of many creatures (including NPCs), as illustrated recently, also causes severe lag on its own regardless of parties.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always been the type of person who created large parties.  Even for quests I knew I could beat easily with two people, I'd take eight if I could.  Now, I do favor smaller parties because it's easier to keep everyone together and communicate.

I think this will likely prove to be a huge benefit for lag during large events (which I never liked to participate in previously due to lag), but until we have one I cannot say.  I'll only reference my previous comment above.

Combat information from other people will not show up in your log anymore. Personally, this is something I find extremely confusing for what little combat I've seen since the change but some people seem to think it's a good idea.

I'm 50/50 on this.  There are advantages and disadvantages.  It's hard to tell when someone is hit with a critical, for example, and needs a fast heal.  It's also hard to tell when someone lands a critical so my PC can respond appropriately ICly.

However, it does clean up the combat log a lot.  It's easier for me to tell what my PC is doing, and I can tell when my PC lands the killing blow much easier.  Also, due to less spam, I'm more likely to see environment text triggers, which gives my PC a chance to react appropriately.

You can't target party members via their portraits. This does not discourage OOC communication, it just makes it more tedious to handle. It also plays a smaller role in combat.

As I said previously, I talk in tells just as much as I did previously.  It's mostly idle chatter and OOC banter.  So no, it does not discourage OOC communication and while it is slightly more tedious it's something I've already adjusted too.

Still, I think the biggest issue when it comes to lack of portraits remains healing.  I cannot rush to save someone if I am not tabbing, but it's something I'm adjusting too... and really makes sense ICly, and while it may mean more deaths for some who are unlucky (that critical sneak attack to the face of the wizard) I find it slightly more immersive.  

Everything takes longer because you need to relay a lot of information the engine previously handled automatically.

This is true.  Keeping the group together does cause things to slow down noticeably, but those gaps seem to be mostly filled with RP.  I can normally do an emote or something while people try and catch up.  Or my PC can lag behind while two others move ahead.  If the group is smaller this is less of a problem, but with larger groups it becomes somewhat of a headache to keep together.  

Then you have to remember how many people are actually with the group, along with their names... yeah, I guess the moral of the story is just take your time with larger groups or take smaller groups.  The issue surrounding larger groups has been balanced out, I believe, by no longer penalizing larger groups when it comes to treasure.

OOC chat has not diminished. In fact, I suspect there is more of it now, and certainly much more in the Talk channel. The fact that the Party channel broadcasts to the DM channel is not for you to worry about, we can filter it out with two clicks. On the other hand, some have claimed it has also led to deeper RP.

Aside from taking quests, I have not really noticed this at all.  I have noticed a bit more RP as a result, however, and in some cases I've found ways (or noticed others who've found ways) to deal with things ICly.  For example, last night we did a quest and we needed more people around the quest giver.  The PC who was speaking to the quest giver asked more of us to come to him, so he could "prove" to the NPC that the group could handle the mission.  It was handled ICly.

Animal Empathy will not stop an already attacked creature from attacking. This is faction related and cannot be changed.

This is a problem for druids and rangers.  Although I am sure some work around could be done with the animal empathy skill, right?  Maybe when an animal is empathied, it despawns and respawns as a non-hostile NPC.  For druids and rangers they could then enter a dialog with the empathied animal and with a successful AE skill check, have it become their henchman?   (The skill check could grow progressively higher as more animals are brought under the druid / ranger's control.  AE would no longer fade suddenly as it did in the past, with the animal becoming hostile again.)

The loss of a designated party leader introduces a slew of logistical problems, including, but not limited to:

Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?
Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?
What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?
What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?
Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?
What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?
What if someone decides to abandon a quest?
What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?
What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?
What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?
What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?
Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?

Some of those questions are things I have not considered.  However, some I think are irrelevant.

"Does it matter who takes and turns in a quest?"

This has been an issue under both the new and old system.  Nothing has changed in this regard.

"Can two people take the same quest separately at the same time, and if so, what if they meant to go together?"

Although I have not tried it, I am certain the answer to this is no.  If you mean take the quest separately at EXACTLY the right moment, I'm not sure what would happen.  However, if one person is on the quest and another group tries to join the quest - it's the same as the old system.

"What if you are added to a quest you don't want to go on (right now but maybe later), and what if it's one-time only?

What if somebody you don't want on the quest is standing too close to the quest giver and you don't notice her being added?"

This is an issue.  The quest giver tool needs to be able to remove people from the quest as well as add them.  Give it a dialog similar to how a potion cauldron works.

"Must you stand next to the quest taker when turning in a quest?"

No.  The reward system works exactly like the old one.

"What if you have an old and used quest tool and decide to use it again when somebody else is taking the quest?"

I am not sure, has anyone tested this?

"What if someone decides to abandon a quest?"

I've had this happen!  It works exactly like the old system.  When they leave the quest, it abandons it for everyone, regardless of location or distance.

"What if the party leader wants to kick a party member?"

No noticeable difference from the old system as there is no party.

"What if the party leader leaves or disconnects without passing on the quest tool?"

Then people with the quest can still take the PC who wants to join to the quest giver and say they want to add more people to the quest.  It adds more people just like the old system did, except you need to be close to the quest giver.

"What if somebody you don't consider an ally marks you an ally?"

Not a problem for you, but a problem for them if they want to set you to hostile by setting the server hostile.  See my previous post in this thread.

"What if two characters have the same name and you mark one of them an ally?"

No idea.  This needs to be tested.

"Must somebody be an ally to go with you on a quest?"

The answer to this is no - I thought it did at first, which resulted in me marking lots of people as an ally. :p  However, the ally system seems to only be useful for when you set people to hostile.  It remembers your "allies" and doesn't set them to hostile.

"With proximity based XP, do archers and spellcasters get shafted? If not, what's the point?"

Playing with the range can sort these issues out, but over all I have not heard serious OOC complaint.  I also think the range is large enough to make it irrelevant.  It only seems to penalize characters like my former character, a wizard who'd go invisible after buffing up the fighters and hide some distance from the combat to avoid death.  ...then after combat come running up to bandage them.

It has become extremely difficult for a group of stealthed characters to move as a unit.

This is true.  However, on EfU:A  we have stealth as being semi-magical, considering you can stand right next to someone and remain perfectly hidden if they cannot spot / hear you.  In this way, it is no different than casting invisibility on the entire group, and no one drinking a see invisibility potion.  

I do not see it as an issue, and in fact I think it makes sense and balances things out.  Stealth is hugely powerful on EfU:A, and the minor penalty of not being able to see a group member in stealth... well... I'm not losing sleep over it.  They are hidden and moving silently.  You're not supposed to hear / see them.  

The system is counter-intuitive and inconvenient. It resembles a hak -- something we have been fundamentally against since launch almost four years ago -- in that it isn't optional. It causes confusion amongst new and old players alike (I've seen several cases of people not understanding the purpose of the ally list, and I didn't at first either); relies on tedious chat commands (with no copy or history, even the shortest chat command becomes tedious); and won't work for characters with non-English symbols in their names (something NWN otherwise supports). Make a single mistake, either spelling or proximity, and you'll have to retype the command.

Since the ally system is not needed for questing, it's pretty irrelevant.  Additionally, if I am not mistaken, role-playing in a language that is not English is against the rules of EfU:  A (since this is an English speaking server).  A rule can be made that accent characters are not allowed in names, just as quotation marks shouldn't be allowed in names due to the buggyness it causes with tells.

While I think it does cause some confusion at first, it is easy to adjust to after a quest or two, and for some new players they have to adjust to our quest system anyway.  I don't think it adds a greater amount of hak-yness than the domains override.  To play a cleric of certain deities you NEED the override.

A perfectly functional, self-maintaining system, quick and easy to use and learn, has been replaced with an error-prone, unoptimized (arguably, unoptimizable) system with a much steeper learning curve and a bunch of unanswered questions. This has nothing to do with the author -- I certainly couldn't do it myself. That's just the fickle nature of NWScript and NWN in multiplayer.

See all my comments above.

Two points that have been highlighted as being in favour of this change are
elimination of gank squads; and
immersion

I don't think this change eliminates gank squads.  :p  That's just silly.  It makes a gank squad harder to organize, and reduces its effectiveness... but it does not eliminate them.

The level of immersion is debatable and subjective.  I personally find it adds more immersion, but that largely depends on the group.  I find it more immersive in smaller groups and about the same in larger groups.  However, I have a difficult time RPing with larger groups in general (too much spam and too many people doing too many things at once).

----

I guess in closing, I have to ask the same question that I began with:  Have you played using the new system?  In the end, I find that the new system adds more positive than negative, and although you bring up some good points, some of the points make me believe that you haven't even tried it out.  

Most people I know who were against it have given it a try, and have come around.  It is not complicated.  The only real issue with the new party system surrounds taking a quest, but outside of that it's largely irrelevant.

I will not say my playing experience has become fantastically improved as a result of the change, but it has improved slightly as a result.  Mostly the improvements surround immersion as it keeps groups together during a quest.

I do not notice any huge difference between the old and new system outside of that, but individual mileage may vary.

[Blake the Boar]

Wow, I'm not reading that.

[Crod Mondoon]

Snoteye and Meldred more then covered the pro's and cons, so I will simply state why I voted to keep the system in place.  This will be a lengthy post, so I voted yes, for those of you with ADD,(sarcasm and humor here, try not to get to offended), move on. :)

I started on EFU about 5 years ago. Knew nothing of roleplaying, metagamieng, ooc or ic.  I was a min/max pwrquestr who got sent to DM Jail within minutes of logging in for killing npc grey dwarf miners just outside of Sancturary,-my reason- because I was a dwarf. Made perfect "ic" sense to me at the time.The DM kindly explained why it was not acceptable to gank uncontrolled npc's. I am still guilty of a min/max pwrqest char once in a while, when I want to try out new quests(usually in the 1-3 range). The char never lasts a day.  I learned everything about how to RP on a PW server here. I like to think I have gotten decent at it.

 The change, while a bit more difficult for keeping track of stealthed chars (which, we kinda should not be able to do, if they were actually ninja like in their stealth) and the animal empathy issues needing a fix.,has taken the whole expereince to another level.  Metagameing seems to be, to  me at least,  no longer an issue.  PVP, RP,questing etc -for me- I no longer take these things into account. I see others acting the same when it comes to groups and quests, the optimum party seems to be abandoned, and the result is a much more challengeing and fun quest experience. If your frontliners do run ahead as you smash the quest, there is a very real chance you will loose your party, as the others are slowly ganked by a sly DM goblin assasin, or the MoB you missed in your rush to "Crush the Quest!". It forces us to slow down, and again I think a good thing. I act as my char would, 99.9% of the time, as opposed to perhaps 75% before. A reflection on me, perhaps, but it has led to an improvement..  I am not afraid to admit that until very recently, I took ooc knowledge of a char into account for pvp. It took alot to overcome that self preservation instinct of knowing as much as one could. This has been fixed for the entire server, some may not have needed it, but a welcome thing for me. It has really uped the emersion for me.

 I took a day, and played on another server, with all the old party stuff, and I must say, alot more allowable metagame features of the oringinal engine.  In that one day, (actually only a few hours) an individual kept logging in diffrent accounts and PKing everyone in sight with a min/maxed char.  Then, another began ninja looting quest rewards with no RP claiming his dieties alignement allowed him too OOC. This is no slight on the server, and the DM's handled it with amazeing speed and professionalisim, but it seems to me, that those that truly wish for a RP server, in the purest form, a chance to become 100% there chars while playing, this system is what acheives that.  Will it chase away some players, yes. Certainly the griefers I encoutnered will be detered , and I think that is not necessarily a bad thing.  

As I said before, there are some issues that will need be addressed, but after a 5 year learning curve, this system seems like iceing on a RP cake, not arsenic.  I also believe, that with the changes, many of those server hopping looking for a true RP enviorment (and there are many, EFUA just needs a bit of publicity agian) will find EFUA and stay.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I voted yes for two simple reasons.

Anything that sparks this much controversy is good for the server.

if you're me, you metagame a lot and get banned for it. This won't happen anymore.

[Snoteye]

I want to quickly point out that my last post represents my views as an individual person and potential player, not a DM. There are a few points I could not have raised without intimate knowledge of the technical side of things but most I could have raised regardless.

@Meldread: It was never my intention for this thread to turn into back-and-forth discussion/bickering about the topic (your post is fine, don't worry) so I'm not going to offer counters to any of your points. I'll just answer your question: No, I haven't played. I haven't played because I haven't needed to. My issues are primarily of a nature that it's not a matter of "getting used to it." It's the whole design philosophy itself that bothers me.

And Animal Empathy can't be modified.

[sobe-real]

Strongly in favor of the new system

[Blue41]

Honestly, I don't mind the new system. What I've been trying to answer for myself, though, is has my experience really been changed all that much? Do we need it?

To say that it stops metagaming of a certain kind would be accurate. But I'd also say that it still exists in a slightly different form. /c diagnose is a simple enough way to discover whether or not another character is diseased/poisoned (not sure whether this relies on Heal skill) and I've used that command before the no-party system was implemented just as much as presently. But as far as portrait healing goes before and after...if you've ever been healed mid-combat nowadays without asking for it or emoting, chances are that somebody hit the TAB button, saw "Badly Injured", and tossed a CSW your way. Still metagaming, just slightly different.

Ganksquads/Maps: seeing as how a good number of people can be mature about PvP, and handle their conflicts like adults, the no-party system seemed like a widespread solution to a problem that only a quarter of the populace has shown. Not knowing where your party member is getting his ass kicked is a good thing, yes. Not knowing if somebody crashed during a transition or in the heat of combat and just having them 'disappear' is not.
Stealth character having to 'check in' with the rest of the party every few screens is an inconvenience- not a major one, but still there. And in situations where everyone scatters, drinks invis potions and runs away, it's rather difficult to find everyone again. I suppose battle tactics will have to be planned out more- "meet here if things go south"- and that's a good thing, but it's a change that has been slow to come.

Immersion: I can't argue with this. The no-party system definitely brings more immersion. I'm glad that there's less lag, though there are still cases where some people get an extreme amount of lag in an area while the others do not. I'm glad that if my party members should run ahead while I'm stuck elsewhere, I have literally no idea where they ran to. I don't think it's cut down on OOC conversation, even with Party chat gone. All these things are well and good, but were they needed? I really don't know.

A journal entry would be very helpful if this system is being kept, btw. I had to explain this system to another player IG and it was kind of a nightmare as far as where to begin.

[Dr Dragon]

The Doc approves of this new system.

[Equinox]

Yay, i like it. Less metaing, moar rp.

[Listen in Silence]

As for immersion, I've been getting the feeling over the last half or so year that, on some occasions, it's like a magic word which, when invoked, will excuse any act and even harvest praise (due or undue) from players. This game is a game, it's meant to be fun. If you want to play real life, go outside (careful, Earth's a permadeath server and you have to emote breathing all the time). Point is, we can do so much more to make the game more realistic -- things we have always deliberately ignored (like eating and drinking) -- and only at the price of fun.

This. We're a server of roleplaying elites, eyeing our surroundings fearfully in search of the "Metagamers" and the "Griefers" who, judging from forum posts and mirc conversations are abundant. People don't metagame as much as everyone thinks they do! We're all quite capable of just knowing all these things the previous system would tell us without having our characters act upon it.

I much prefer looking at my party list and seeing that the fellow who suddenly disappeared is actually at 8/32 hp in SQA  - Troglodyte Caves - Underwater while I panic and go "Holy shit where'd jimmy go?!" than not know if the player crashed, if he got insta killed and fugued, if he's drowning, if he's got lost or if he just stumbled upon some spawn that'd wandered into an obscure corner.