Stealth System

[Cruzel]

Stealth is fine.

....

Well moderate to intensive investment in stealth you will do well against PCs who don't invest in spot/listen.
....
The balance is good.

Tbh, I disagree. Even walking around the ziggurat at times with around 45/40 stealth (Fully buffed with stealth wands and DM loot to boot)  I found that  some pcs with little to no detection skills would hear or even SPOT me.  I know all about the light/movement modifiers and I play my sneaks accordingly so as not to get hit by the penalties whenever possible because a good sneak should know how to not get caught.

The only answer I can surmise from this, is the area modifiers are a little too high.

My suggestion is somewhat of a 'focused stealth mode' where a pc sacrifices most of their combat ability both offensively and defensively (-10 to ab and -5 AC), and some of their movement speed.  The PC will focus entirely on not being detected, which a delay between deactivation and penalty removal (to prevent exploit in use of stealthganks)  This mode could work in several ways, though IMO It should have a feat requirement of the  "Stealthy" feat.;

1) Only indoors, giving a +5 or +10 bonus to stealth

2) Anywhere,  only +5 though. Maybe only usable a few times per day (Tiptoeing around is bad for your toes, you know. Gotta give them a break)


HOWEVER, since I am suggesting boosting stealth for those who focus on it, it seems only fair to boost detection skills in a similar way. Have the detecting PC drop their defences and offense in order to give a small bonus as well.  Like the focused stealth, this advanced detection should only be available to people who invest in a feat for it (Alertness maybe).


Or the area modifiers could be lowered.  My way seems more fun though :/


Also, I've played quite a few stealth PCs.  While it is true there are quite a few quests that drop stealth loot, the fact is that even fully outfitted with all the stealth gear available from common quests, a non minmaxed stealther is looking at around 21/24 at around level 6 before feats.  That may sound high, but when you factor in moving in any way gives you a -5 ms penalty, walking around near bright lights or in the daylight gives you penalties to hide, so in actuality unless you're in some dank dark musty cave you're really cruising around with about 15/16.

Did I mention that  if they are standing still they are treated as if they are in detect mode regardless, making checks every two seconds with +5 to their listen modifier, +5 to spot if they have a bright lightsource or ultravision on, on TOP of area modifiers?   So even a person with 0 spot and 0 listen can be sitting there with a minimum of 5/5 at pretty much any time. What does that mean for the stealther? All their loot and feats and skill investment, and this random pc only needs to roll a 10 to see them under common circumstances.   Now most stealthers will have at least one of the feats, or maybe all three.   This means that at around level 6 with no DM loot and all three feats, the average PC without detection skills/loot will need to  roll about a 15 spot or listen to detect our stealther.

2 checks every 2 seconds, The odds aren't really that great that the stealther will remain hidden for long. This is without even considering a PC who actually has invested in detection skills.


I hope this paints a better picture of why stealth as it is, is indeed not balanced, and it is far, far too easy to spot or hear someone as it is.

[Nihm]

I find it absurd that anyone can get 50 skill ranks in hide, or any other skill, this the stealth of an epic level character well beyond the server range.
 
If people can get this, stealth certainly needs no help.

[Cruzel]

I find it absurd that anyone can get 50 skill ranks in hide, or any other skill, this the stealth of an epic level character well beyond the server range.
 
If people can get this, stealth certainly needs no help.

Except the character sheet is a lie.  

Even at 45/40 you can still be spotted by most PCs who have about 15/10 respectively. Which with loot and investment, is not overly hard to do, When you consider the information in my previous post. Whereas getting 45/40+ in stealth actually is not so easy..

[Champion_of_brandobaris]

Amazingly, I agree with Cruzel.

[Caddies]

Tbh, I disagree. Even walking around the ziggurat at times with around 45/40 stealth (Fully buffed with stealth wands and DM loot to boot) I found that some pcs with little to no detection skills would hear or even SPOT me. I know all about the light/movement modifiers and I play my sneaks accordingly so as not to get hit by the penalties whenever possible because a good sneak should know how to not get caught.

You do not seem to understand that NWN's stealth system is a fixed thing.

If you had 45 Hide and 40 Move Silently when you were detected while negating any hidden bonuses PCs might get with you mad skills (as you inferred) then...

Those PCs who spotted you at least 25 Spot and at least 20 Listen, not "Little to no detection skills"

While it is possible that whoever heard you had such crazy Spot/Listen, Cruzel, it is much more likely that you aren't as skillful as you think you are and that those PCs did receive bonuses to their detection on account of the hidden stealth modifiers.

[Cruzel]

I'm talking about PCs i know for certain had no detect skills.  Harold Blake (with a almighty spot/listen of 2, as gwydion has told me if I remember right) managed to not hear, but see my fully buffed rogue while I was hiding. With modifiers though, that +2 becomes an easy +5 from his light/standing still, and an additional -10 for the hide check because I was in the center of the radius of the bright light, -5 to ms because of movement, etc.  And then there are area modifiers to consider, jacking his spot/listen up even more, which presents us with relatively  small gap where the skills would appear to be massively different.

Other PCs I'm confident had little to no detection skills have also heard me, even when I was just casually strolling at least 15m away. I'm confident absolutely none of them had 20+ detect skills, caddies.

At least not before modifiers. After all modifiers are considered, these pcs with 'little to no detections skills' are easily cruising around the 15-20+ area in most cases, from my observations.



The point I am trying to make, is players who do not invest in detection skills/feats at all, should not be able to  detect stealthers (In any circumstance) as laughably easy as they can now.

[Vlaid]

So...he saw you while you ignored pretty much every situational modifier there is to stealth, that seems balanced to me. You shouldn't need keen senses to see someone standing in bright light, in front of you, at day, while moving, and while they aren't moving.

My only gripe is that non-ranger/druids feel a little weak in the stealth department, but I may be alone in that feeling.

[Champion_of_brandobaris]

Bards and Rogues can get pretty decent stealth.