Messages

I'm not sure if there's a direct counterpart to this in PnP, and I don't really care, but this is one illusion spell I've always wanted to have: something that works like the cleric spell Sanctuary, with the usual Will Save associated with illusions. 1 Turn/Level, applying the effect and making you look like a rock, tree or something else appropriate. If you move, you break the effect. (Alternately, you're rendered immobile but you can dispel the spell with a chat command.)

I'm not sure if Sanctuary turns you invisible like GS. In that case, it'd be a bit more complicated, dropping a PLC where you stand.

I'm speaking purely and selfishly for myself. As should everyone. Nobody can do it for you. I agree this is a mountain out of a grain of salt, but the real issue is not the ability itself but rather the dogmatic fanaticism people treat it and related issues with. Whe it comes to RP, my doctrine is that "if it's cool, anything goes."

Pretty much says it all. This server is -Howlands-, and is run by howland and the DM team. What they say goes, and you are making a massive fuss over something relatively stupid.

Quite simply, if you want to play a "divine warrior" class, but not be restricted by the Paladin Code set here. Play a Fighter/Cleric, or play a Divine Champion.

Though the question really is, why would your LG pc want to go hanging around with evil people anyway. Seems to me like you want the paladin spells and abilities, but not the responsibilties of RPing that class.

I disagree with every paragraph. The assumptions you make are outright insulting, even if you didn't mean them as such: I'm not making a paladin anytime soon, and I have no desire to "hang out with evil people". I dislike the very idea of Detect Evil, an ability that was never meant to be used against PCs and is purely a tool of convenience in a PnP campaign. It simply has no place in RP, as far as I'm concerned. Even moreso I dislike the idea that someone else tells me how I have to play my paladin. Basically, it's a case of "somebody's wrong on the Internet." ;)

Of course what Howland says goes. That's exactly why I'm making an argument here, instead of just doing what I want. It's our job as players to communicate what we want, because that's what every server is ultimately about: giving players what they want. You'd be pretty stupid to play here if you weren't getting what you want. If a change is needed in order for you to get what you want, then you need to convince people that the change is good. Players around here need to grow a pair and stop being afraid of disagreeing with the DMs. Howland is a mature and smart guy, and I've yet to be banned for ranting in public and in PMs.

EDIT: Howland: fair enough, we're off topic. And I get it, you like Detect Evil and have several reasons for doing so. I don't, and I don't have to because the rules don't force me to. My contribution to this topic is that you don't need to use Detect Evil all the time (or you should use it only when you have reason to suspect someone is evil; black spiky armor or other clichés seem good enough a reason). That means you have to be on your toes and watch out for any indications of evil to give you reason to use your god-given gift. It's much more challenging, the responsibility of paladinhood weighs heavier on your shoulders that way. Certainly not the opposite, as some in the Solution Button camp seem to suggest. So I suggest you try it, and see if you'll have similar awkward situations where you have to call out and slander an evil guy in public for no reason.

Wern8: The Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, A Grand Tour Of The Realms, page 14:

"There is no specific paladin's code, no set of do's and don'ts by which paladins are judged on a pass/fail basis." What follows is mention of an IC document, Quentin's Monograph, which is a widely known treatise on paladins and virtues but not normative among different faiths. Then this: "[E]very paladin grades and emphasizes these virtues based on his or her own personal ethos and religious background. ---Paladins may obey all these virtues to the letter and still lose their special status, or flout one virtue in the name of another and still retain paladinhood. In this fashion, a paladin may exist outside an organized hierarchy or even lead rebellions and wars against unjust or evil causes. It is possible under these virtues that one paladin may even fight another, both seeking to defend a different paladin’s virtue or interpretation of all of them."

I know you've decided this doesn't apply for EfU. (Though saying you don't care about Forgotten Realms is not an argument; it just shows you don't have a more elaborate case to make.) It's just that your idea of paladins is so far out from what they are in the original setting that you're hardly fair to assume everyone will buy into it with a smile. Why can't you accept that not everyone likes your idea and shares your taste, and that maybe they still want to play your cool server?

The point isn't who's right and whose view should be enforced for all. The point is, why does one view have to be enforced at all? Why the prevalent trend that everything has to be just like you imagined it when you created the module? It's not as if diversity and independence is bad for a server. Right now many EfU veterans are so used to doing what DMs "expect of them" that the result is a stagnant rotation of the same concepts over and over again: "yeah conflict, PvP, good stuff gone twisted, evil stuff gone twisted, conflict, yeah PCs that live two weeks and archetypes from B-grade fantasy literature!" I know I'm exaggerating, but there really is an unusual number of yay-sayers and sycophants on EfU and I can't help but wonder if it's because you expect players to do what you want, instead of going out of your way to facilitate what players want. You've actually created a pretty dynamic story with your policy, but some diversity isn't going to ruin that.

What's good about being a paladin is that it's such a stagnant pile of false preconceptions that it's fun and challenging to breate new life into it. There's nothing controversial about playing a Fighter/Cleric, but showing that not all typical beliefs about Paladins are justified is controversial and exciting. And it's never wrong to rattle the cage a little.

[Edited:]

Paha Poika: Imagination creates the reality of the game. EfU and our PCs aren't real, so nothing "just is" unless we imagine it so. There's no reason not to imagine that some Paladin did not have the ability, other than arbitrary taste. Now, it's true that people (in our case, the DMs) can enforce their subjective taste on everyone, but that's rather crude and banal and I doubt EfU DMs are stubborn enough to turn down a good explanation when they're given one.

Detect Evil is not a metagaming ability at all nor is it in any way bad or silly on EFU:A, it is in fact a big part of the Paladin class and if properly done, adds to role-playing, of course it should not be overly dependent on though and a Paladin should still make use of his own common sense and capabilities when acting against evil.

Now, If you do not want to use detect evil or find it a silly ability, I suggest refraining from playing a Paladin as it likely does not fit you and  you will definitely fall if you play it this way, while we definitely allow Fallen Paladins, we do not want players to make Paladins with the purpose of falling as their foremost desire, especially through not using Detect Evil.

Edited: All Paladins regardless of deity do receive the ability to detect evil and have basically the very same code, there are differences between the faiths though. I recommend this thread for further reading as well.

What is silly or metagamey is a matter of taste. The statement that "it's not silly on EfU" is rather silly itself, suggesting that there is some uniform taste enforced on the server. I think it's silly, I've never seen anything good come of it, I want nothing to do with it, and I will play a paladin if I feel like it. You can disagree, and that's perfectly fine. I do hope that when the time comes, you will consider my PC without bias and see if it's as poor a concept as you're predisposed to think.

Paladins in the Realms don't have identical codes. There's no The Paladin Code. It's bluntly stated in the Campaign Setting. Of course, it's possible that you've houseruled otherwise (probably originally out of ignorance, even if you've since come to like it better), but I see no reason why you wouldn't also allow people to play paladins as they are in the Realms. Not everyone has to dance to one tune, not everything has to conform to one uniform taste. I can make just as good, if not better an argument for my view as you can for yours. You can either squish me with dogmatic authority as is your right as a DM, or you can live and let live. I guess we'll see when/if I make my paladin, though.

LPFF: I was thinking that might come off as rude, so I'm sorry about that. It wasn't my intention, and I'm actually rather cool. I just like to post dramatic. >_<

Well, I hardly think the DMs are going to force you to assume it's an ability your paladin has and must use. (And if they do, I hope they won't say it here; it should be discovered IC.) Why would every paladin in every order get identical powers? In fact they don't, there are plenty of Subsitution Levels, like pseudo-prestige classes, that you use in place of pure paladin levels, introduced for several orders in Champions of Valor.

It is very well conceivable that some paladins in some orders would have sworn an oath to face other people on equal ground, relying on their natural wisdom and perceptiveness, instead of making the arguably unfair magical act of invading your soul without permission and defining you externally. (Not everyone sees it like this, but it's definetely a very defensible notion.) Maybe some gods like Lathander want their paladins to sharpen their mind like that (portfolio: self-perfection) and give the benefit of the doubt to people who might so repent (portfolio: new beginnings).

No, it's hardly the norm. But it's quite feasible, so I don't think anyone should OOCly dictate how everyone must play their paladin.

It's exactly the unbending lack of imagination your post portrays, Paha Poika, that I find so frustrating in attitudes about paladins.

I'd like to see paladins who don't use Detect Evil at all, but instead use the Wisdom and Charisma they's required to have in order to figure out the motives of people and the best course of action. Nobody's forcing you to use the metagamey ability (I sure hope), so if you feel it's awkward, why use it at all? If you assume your paladin is oath-forbidden or simply unable to use it at all (which is very possible), you dodge the issue and open the door for serious and challenging RP.

All in all, I think people are way too narrow-minded about paladins. They make absolutely ridicilous absolute claims about "all" paladins in "every" situation. That's always a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot. Paladins are just as diverse as any other class, only in a much narrower field. The possibilities within that small field are still theoretically endless, though.

You should always first and foremost consider the personality of your PC and the context of the situation he's in. You should reflect this on your god's dogma, the orders of your church superiors, and your paladin oath, whatever that is. It really shouldn't be your job to consider OOC what a paladin is supposed or allowed to do, at all. You should do what your character would do, and there's no reason to assume he'd know more about acceptable paladin conduct than you do. If your god disagrees, that's up to the DMs. And that's another valid IC event. I hate it when players try to avoid negative consequences OOC. Do what your PC believes is the right thing, even if that goes against the traditional idea of paladins. If it happens that you're wrong, then you fall and you can wage ethical war against your god who seems to have taken the side of the wrong-doers.

Kraken Society, anyone?

Horses freeze many player's screens when they enter an area. They're a lot heavier than other NWN graphics. There's no actual server lag that I know of, though.

You need to assign your racial domain powers to a player tool slot. This should probably be mentioned somewhere. >_>

[Economic Left/Right: -5.62Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.90]

Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.90

Right there with Dalai Lama, woo.
Yeah, the questions were poorly worded. Some concerned simple facts, and you could only answer one way if you knew the answer no matter what you thought about it. And then there's stuff like "All authority should be questioned" which is a no-brainer, but says nothing about what to do after that initial questioning. Fun stuff anyway.

I'm a bit surprised, because I've always figured I'm very authoritarian. I'm extremely critical of the practice of authority, granted, but the idea of social control that's justified by nothing than itself is quite alright with me.

I'm rather indifferent to the basic idea, like I am to the spellbooks: I'm not interested, but I doubt it might be cool for some. Might fall a little bit into the realm of tedious. The real issue with this is that holy symbols aren't necessarily rare or valuable. Low-ranking priests often make their own from very basic materials. A wooden disk prettied up with some paint is often a valid holy symbol, and the best most rank-and-file priests are ever going to get. They're not comparable to spellbooks in rarity and value.

Why is it a good thing?

It's annoying. That alone should be reason enough to change it. You might convince me otherwise if you can point out a PC whose story was notably improved by the way it currently works.

If you (whoever) like to bleed out invisible, you can feel free not to dispel it. And those who don't could feel free to do it. I don't see why one party should have any business telling what's better for the other.

That's probably because he's one of the two who actually have a big following in the Realms. And the other one's all about cybering!

Been a bit busy with exams and other stuff, so I think Egon's weekly campaign and the PnP campaign I'm playing are quite enough game time for now. Tunnelcrouch will be back soon enough.