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Messages - Samo

#1
General Discussion /
November 17, 2009, 12:40:09 AM
I know exactly why all of this is as it is. It's because EFU is a brilliant idea built on bad bedrock.

To understand what I'm about to be talking about one really needs to read this: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html

EFU is built on NWN, which in turn is built on the ruleset for DnD 3.5. Most everyone here is probably already aware of this. But what kind of system is DnD or NWN really? Let's start with DnD.

DnD is, and always has been, without question, a GAMIST game. I've been playing since 2nd edition, but I've also gone back and played some first edition, but regardless of which edition you are using the design philosophy has always been the same, that is to say, gamist. The bulk of the rules are about combat resolution. Seriously. If you have access to a rulebook flip through it and count how many pages are devoted to some aspect of combat resolution. Now count how many are devoted to story, role playing a character with depth, social rules mechanics, etc. See what I mean? DnD has NEVER been about telling a good story or accurately simulating situations. If you have been involved in a game which has done either of these, good for you! Your DM was obviously a keeper because he sure as hell didn't succeed at doing so due to any help from the ruleset. DND is not simulationist and it certainly is NOT narrative.

Now let's talk about NWN. NWN is a game which VERY faithfully follows the DND 3.5 ruleset. And that's its problem. As far as video games go, DND (and by extention NWN) isn't even a particularly GOOD system on which to base a gamist game. If you want hardcore questing, group combat, phat loot, and overall interesting and engaging combat dynamics, well, NWN is about the last game I'd ever choose. WoW does a WAY better job of delivering all that. Seriously, even if you don't like WoW in particular you have to admit that at least its design philosophy is on the mark. It's a gamist game, it doesn't really pretend to be otherwise, it's based on tabletop RPGs like DND, but no more so than any other CRPG. Its designers took those few things that were good about such systems, discarded the rest and then built up their own system from there. I can't even compare the experience of playing a warrior on WoW vs. playing one in NWN. For those are aren't familiar with WoW let me break down the differences for you:

WoW - Click on the enemy to begin attacking, since I'm the tank I hit him with Devestate a few times to make sure I've got aggro, hit him with Rend to have some damage over time happening, oh shit it's a spellcaster, hit him with a Shield Bash to interrupt and silence him for a few seconds, got a second enemy coming up from behind use Thunder Clap to get him to aggro me and maintain aggro on the first guy at the same time, now let's drop a Demoralizing Shout to bring down their damage, might as well drop a Battle Shout while I'm at it, oh shit that second guy is going after the mage now, use Taunt to get him attacking me again, alright now let's hit him with Devestate a few times and then Thunder Clap again, just about got him, let's finish him with Revenge and then Shield Slam, ok, he's down, now let's finish that other guy...

NWN - Click on the enemy to begin attacking, sit back and watch as the computer handles the archaic game mechanics of rolling initiative, rolling for attack, rolling for damage if there's a hit and then wait for the next combat round, no seriously, your character just stands there waiting for his next combat round, meanwhile you go get something to drink while the combat plays out entirely in accordance with the luck of the dice throws and your character's combat stats which are almost entirely based on level.

Ok, ok, I know sometimes there's a bit more to it than that... You might have to down a potion or two. So hit F5... wait... wait some more... ok HP are down some hit F5 again, wait... etc.

As far as engaging combat dynamics NWN and pretty much any other game that utilizes the DND ruleset is a massive, steaming pile of fail. If I want to go do group questing and be pretty well assured of having a good time I can hop on WoW and go get involved in a 5 man dungeon. If not WoW then there are plenty of other interesting and engaging gamist RPGs and at least one of them is likely to suit your tastes.

I would never recommend NWN as a good gamist RPG. But how does it do as a platform for something like EFU which is clearly an attempt to create a narrative RP environment? "Fail" would be too kind.

If I were to take apart NWN and examine to code for it I would guess that the overwhelming majority of it would be dedicated to combat resolution. Not surprising considering its origins. There are simply too damn few tools for social interaction. Even WoW has more tools than this crapfest. Your ability to create emote macros or speech macros is severely limited, in part by the character limit for macros in general, you only get 24 action buttons for any macros you do create (and they have to share them will all other actions, sucks if you're a spellcaster). There are damned few animations, voice emotes, appearance options, clothing options, class customization options. And though NWN is highly moddable there are still limits to how far one can go with it, I mean, at the end of the day it's still NWN. This doesn't help EFU anyway because it prides itself and using no hakpaks (great for new player accessibility, bad for game dynamics, vanilla NWN is simply teh suck).

The point I've been driving toward is that EFU is attempting to mix two incompatible type of gaming: Gamist and Narrativist. Many different people have made a lot of commentary on the deficiencies of EFU, but I don't think anyone has ever really nailed the underlying problem 100%. I'm convinced that the problem is this incompatibility of underlying design philosophy. EFU is trying really hard to be a narrativist game, but it's constantly hampered by its platform.

For instance, much debate has taken place on the subject of suitable character death. The ultimate conclusion that always seems to be reached is: "It's just part of EFU, suck it up and deal with it". Why does it come to this conclusion? Because combat and death are about the most interesting things that the underlying game engine allows for, and most people want interesting stuff to be happening, they want drama. While combat and death can be great sources of drama they are not the only sources, nor even the best sources.

Imagine Lord of the Rings EFU style...

There's Frodo and Sam trying to sneak across Mordor wearing orc armor to blend in, they come upon a column of orcs marching to the Black Gate who see them and drag them into the column to join them on their march. They start a mock fight with one another as a ruse to escape in the ensuing chaos, a big fight erupts and they try to slip away but fail their sneak roll, so orc archers shoot them in the back, take the ring to Sauron and the land is covered in darkness for the next thousand years. The End.

Now... who wants to read THAT goddamned book? No one I know. But that's what EFU is, a series of characters playing out a story in which most of said characters are killed off before their story is concluded, sometimes before their story is even really started, and often time due to stupid shit that would never survive the editing process of any decent book/movie/tv show/video game/comic book/etc. And for some regulars here this fact is worn like some sort of twisted badge of honor, for others the number of permadeaths they are involved in is how they "win at EFU".

And the reason for all of this? Because combat and death are about the most interesting things that can happen. This game engine doesn't allow for much more. Yet many of us play for that tiny bit more that CAN be done, for us being part of a long running story rich in non-combat elements IS the interesting part.

Character death is not the worst thing that can happen to a character in a good story.

Some people may not fully get that, so I shall repeat it:

CHARACTER DEATH IS NOT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO A CHARACTER IN A GOOD STORY!!!!!11eleven

But in a gamist game, it is. For the simple reason that you're now out of the game. And for some people this is enough.

For those who enjoy gamist RPGs I recommend WoW you'll have a lot better time than grinding the scripted quests of EFU. If you really want a harsh penalty for character death (or you're just a masochist) try EVE Online.

For those of us who enjoy Narrativist RPGs I'm sorry to say that we seem to be a minority. I haven't really seen many alternatives to EFU, flawed as it is. Ideally EFU should be transplanted to another game with mechanics more favorable to creating dynamic stories (something without levels, classes, more types of non combat interaction, etc.), but I know of no other game out there that would be suitable. Most RPGs these days tend to be either gamist or single player RPGs which just put you at the center of a big scripted plotline. There's not really much else that has any equivalent to DM tools either.

Sadly, this is what we got to work with. Nothing to be done except make the most of it.

/$0.02
#2
Introductions and Group Management /
November 09, 2009, 09:52:53 PM
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;152616There is a DM faction for such, but you must be invited to apply for it.


Otherwise, welcome newly come thief!

  Meaning one cannot even apply for it unless specifically invited to do so? Wow, I'd never heard of any DM factions that were like that. A little weird for efu, but I suppose in some situations that would make sense. Just out of curiosity what faction were you referring to?
#3
Hi there!  I have a CN Halfling rogue looking to keep himself in plenty of beer money and stay amused whilst doing it. He has no problem robbing, looting, pilfering, housebreaking, pickpocketing, spying, distracting people with his huge grin while someone else clocks them over the head and steals their boots, etc, etc.  My question is, what groups are active right now and could use a vertically challenged burgler/pickpocket/spy/errand runner?