My suggestion is just that Protection from Alignment be set up to be less readily available, and unbrewable in the same way as shield and true strike potions.
Having recently played an eb0l wizard, I found that cheap and numerous PfE pots shifts the balance of power in PvP very firmly in the direction of max bab melee types.
Without mind affecting spells, there really isn't much in the old arsenal to give a good chance against a fighter class with decent hp.
I mean, warriors should be afraid of dark magic, right? :D
I'm aware that pots are easily dispelled, but for the sake of 40gp it is no trouble at all to chug as many as might be needed.
Certainly less trouble than using a valuable spell slot for dispels, or using a comparatively expensive dispel wand.
IMO, PfE should be mostly restricted to classes with the necessary casting skills or umd.
When considering this suggestion, bear in mind I'm now playing a non-caster. ;)
Dispel wands are your friend they will dispel pfe potions first with about a 90% accuracy rate, but I'm a bit bias.
While hasted you can cast dispel and hold before its even possible for a person to drink and regain their mind protection. Pfe is fine the way it is, many quests would need to be re-tuned if it were not as common as it is
Edit 2: Dispel cast by a caster rather than from an item is one of the most crippling spells you can cast on anybody, it will strip ~everything~ on a decent roll and a few things at worst.
I did mention wands in the opening post, you know. :P
It's only really useful as part of a gang of casters. One to dispel, another to launch a mind-affecting spell before another cheap, available pot is chugged.
Eventhough i love the pots..i hear you.
You can very easily crush your opponent without hold person or mind spells, which are not SUPPOSED to be the be all and end all of pvp, mages are immense destroyers. Don't believe me? get hit with a few empowered fireballs, make your saving throw for half damage, if you survive, come back to me!
(note without making your save an empowered fireball hits for 40-80 damage on average, now imagine hasted and casting three of those from a distance before your opponent can see/get to you.
Also keep in mind there are many other ways to disable people that aren't mind effecting spells (gust of wind for example)
Quote from: "TheImpossibleDream"get hit with a few empowered fireballs
Sure, then a few firebrands and maybe a PW:K while they're at it. >_>
Things are easy enough for team evil without nerfing PfE. Besides which, it is an important spell for a lot of quests and there's a reason why almost every casting class has it.
I find way more Protection from Good potions dropping that Protection from Evil.
Quote from: lovethesuit;124833I find way more Protection from Good potions dropping that Protection from Evil.
Which are pretty much only useful to most who find them as a prevention of friendly fire with stuff like say, Color Spray.
PfG pots are common too, it's the ones for Neutral alignments that are a bugger. That's only really an issue for some animals with Fear Howls though outside of PVP. The thing is, that for quests like Harpies where enemies dispel, PfEs are critical to not die horribly. they also make it possible if expensive to do quests (especially lowbie ones) without casters.
Now, I'll agree there's a bit of a balance issue for PVP when it can be trivial to escape powerful spells, especially as nowhere outside of EfU is HP supposed to be mind-affecting. However it's that or have Goblin Enchanters, Mist Ogre Elders etc be Death To All Parties.
If you want to slow someone up, use Slow (willsave, non mind-affecting), Negative Energy Burst or Ray of Enfeeblement (PCs run close to encumbrance usually) or Web. Although since unrestricted Web Immunity boots exist as basic quest loot, that's a dodgy spell. I've brought that up before since using them and the fairly common Web gear can get rather crazy good.
Cloud of Bewilderment isn't Mind-Affecting, although if it's a Fighter coming at you, they've got a good chance of saving with all the Poison save gear people generally carry.
I suppose the problem is that the stuff that's not mind affecting and CAN screw over a melee class also happens to be FORT saves. If I could make one change to arcane spells it would probably be making Ray of Enfeeblement a Will save like for Burst. Sure it's easily removable, but it's spammable and will usually encumber someone. Not a complete Screw You like paralysis, but nasty, and at the least burns a round on chugging a restore.
Oh and at TheImpossibleDream:
The vast majority of Fighters here have Evasion from rogue multiclass. It can be a bitch :P
It's possible to script PFA to give a +5 or 10 bonus vs mind spells instead of immunity, If such is desireable.
Fully agree with Egon on all counts here.
Slow is the only viable spell for whomping an hp beast.
moar wil svs pls.
Btw, my suggestion equally applies to PfG pots.
Any wizard with access to decent spells should inspire some fear in a fighter.
Hmm...
Here's the thing. If PfX gets changed like that, everyone will be scared to do Harpies unless the DMs script up some Remove Confusion items.
I remember when for some reason PfX didn't work against Mummy Fear Auras and remove Fear pots or items were crucial for Jergals. The same would apply.
EDIT: Could Slow be scripted to Medium range? That might balance things out without huge PfX related tinkering, as that spell isn't removable, but it's not totally crippling either.
It'd make the quest more challenging, since everyones been crying about it being too easy somewhere around here.
No reason to nerf it. Thanks
Quote from: Anonymous Bosch;124828Sure, then a few firebrands and maybe a PW:K while they're at it. >_>
Difference is there have been several pc's with access to empowered fireballs, where as none have had access to PW:Kill I used them as one example, as stated there are tons of spells you can use, I won't go into a "How to kill people as a wizard" rant, but there are so many pc's and have been so many pc's that do it so well regardless of consumables available to their opponents.
While we are at it, let's make endure elements, and all other elemental warding potions less common so that casters can do more elemental damage.
We want to give people with UMD, or even just one bard level a huge advantage of course. Right?
The spells that PfAlign blocks are the spells that really take the fun out of PvP as a victim. The ones that take the power away from the victim player, and make him stand helplessly about while he is killed.
While I think that PfAlign is overpowered, I can't help but support the notion that players should be able to, by being prepared, prevent themselves from being easy pickings to the lamer ways of being ganked.
NPC's don't use these potions or spells often, so an enchanter or illusionist caster still gets to be awesome in questing, whereas he actually has to THINK and be prepared himself to defeat a PvP enemy that may or may not have this protection available. Win win situation. End of line.
My two cents!
Meow-mix!
It's true that mind-affecting spells are brutal for a fighter to deal with.
I've been on the pain end of that a few times myself.
I'm not saying the pots should be removed or nerfed.
Just made less common and cheap.
While I do agree that full BAB classes and multiclasses thereof have the balance of power tipped in their direction slightly on EFU (and always have thought this, even before I played a wizard!), I don't think making PfE/PfG potions is the answer.
Quote from: Anonymous Bosch;124869It's true that mind-affecting spells are brutal for a fighter to deal with.
I've been on the pain end of that a few times myself.
I'm not saying the pots should be removed or nerfed.
Just made less common and cheap.
I think you just un-justified your suggestion. Leave as is imo.
PfA in general is what I see as something you often find in fantasy worlds, basic insurance. A common potion oft drunken by adventurers. PfA, Insulation, Blur, and similar tend to be standard-issue amongst PC's, and perhaps should be among some NPC's as well? I don't mean every Wild Orc, Warrior and his grandmother should be charging into battle PfG'ed, Insulated, and the works, but just having stronger foes (IE, Wild Orc Berzerkers, Warlord, Wyvern Riders) having some potions, not a redick ammount, would make some sense.
Quote from: MrGrendel;124876I think you just un-justified your suggestion. Leave as is imo.
That doesn't unjustify anything, as much as you might like it to. :???:
In fact, as I'm playing a character that is -more- likely to get rammed by fewer pfe pots, I'd say it strengthened it, but it's beside the point.
I understand that this is going to be very unpopular among players that are fond of PfE and the many advantages it brings.
What I'm really interested in are ways to shift the balance of power in a hypothetical 1 v 1 situation.
Gust of wind, a one round KD for a lvl 3 spell, is not really an option.
Web immunity is rife, and as Egon said, every spell other than slow (there aren't that many lvl 9s, The Impossible Dream!) that is liable to stop a rampaging fighter is faced with an impressive fort save.
If making more saves vs will were an option for other spells, I'd get behind that instead.
Quote from: Anonymous Bosch;124879That doesn't unjustify anything, as much as you might like it to. In fact, as I'm playing a character that is -more- likely to get rammed by fewer pfe pots, I'd say it strengthened it, but it's beside the point.
Indeed that is beside the point, which I think you missed. The question is wether your suggestion would improve the situation in general. As a defensive ability/potion, PfA is only as "unbalanced" as whatever it defends against. Spells like hold person are insanely powerful in pvp against combat types. That is why PfA is
effective. It is an
effective counter-measure to a set of extremely powerful abilities on the part of wizards. The "over powered" part, as much as you may hate to hear it, is all within the list of things PfA may counter, assuming the fighter even had the prescience and opportunity to chug one, and that the caster happens to be of the right alignment for the potion to do anything at all.
There's no substitute for a ganking, certainly.
The situation as it is encourages ganking.
I'm anti-ganking.
"Hasted dispell" destroys any argument in favor of this anyway. Anti gank? Heh. More PfA imo. PfA till the cows come home, for the children. And for the anti-gank. Invis hold person = gank city.
Well, that's my point.
Players that can't cast it don't tend to go around PfA'd out the wazzoo, but they'll certainly get it down if, rather than go for the cheap kill, some RP gets done.
Be constructive and help me out with a few alternatives.
I think it's pretty clear you're not in favour of fewer PfAs by this point. ;)
Dispels:
[hide="Click for the maths"]
1d20 + dispel's caster level vs. 11 + effect's caster level
A PfX potion casts at L2.
so that's 13 vs 1d20+CL
Assuming a L7 caster
13 vs 1d20+7
Chance of success = 14/20 = 0.7
Chance of failure= 0.3
Good odds.
[/hide]
So, if you fire a pair of Dispel Magics hasted...
Chance of fail= 0.3*0.3=0.09
Very Good odds. But then you have to wait a round and hope they don't chug another. And you just burned 2 of your l3 slots on that trick. The only logical thing seems to be to alternate dispels from yourself and HPs from a wand. Or run away. Also, Fireballs aren't that handy when you're in a crowded area or they are in your face.
The trouble comes from the fact that the counter to PfX is three times as expensive as the consumable, so far as wands go.
As a wizard or sorc, you're really stuck with run if you're alone, then ambush them from imp invis. There's little opportunity to intimidate or to retaliate when all your big anti-goon countermeasures are easily blocked.
So far as ideas go, all I can think of is "more Wiz/Sorc only easy to acquire dispel gear and Slow consumables"
I would be fine for a fundamental change in how PfE blocks mind spells. It is a rather amazing spell. Actually, many of the first level spells are really amazing -- but I digress. To what spell are you referring to that it blocks? It seems that it blocks stinking cloud and hold person at the level ranges you're talking about. These are two third level spells that are of midling use in PvP. There are /many/ alternatives for you to choose from.
Fort -- Cloud of Bewilderment, Gust of Wind, Ray of Enfeeblement
Dex -- Web, Combust (it is an amazing spell)
STR -- Belgarns (This spell will knock your 20 STR opponents down 75% of the time)
In PvP the best thing you can do as a low level wizard though is to toss tanglefoot bags and dispel,and rely on others. If you get to level 7 your PvP options are opened up tremendously by polymorph, fear, and empowered combusts, not to mention PhK which is suprisingly deadly even against PCs with very high saves. I think I ran the odds on this and a hasted wizard firing three PhK's has like a 12% chance to not kill a player with 14/14 saves.
I never liked the mind spell inmunity, IMO that's too strong for a level 1 spell. I would rather have them grant bonus saves against such alignment, something big, +5, +6. It would protect them pretty well, but not make them invulerable.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;124893I never liked the mind spell inmunity, IMO that's too strong for a level 1 spell. I would rather have them grant bonus saves against such alignment, something big, +5, +6. It would protect them pretty well, but not make them invulerable.
An all-or-nothing defense is perfectly fine against an all-or-nothing spell, which hold person effectively is.
Being the caster initiating with a hold person against a warrior is far more likely to guarantee you a won match (and virtually guarantees you can make a draw) than being a warrior initiating by chugging a PvA against a caster.
PvA does not disable the caster himself at all, and only makes certain of his abilities ineffective, and even that's making several assumptions, ie no dispell, the alignment actually matches the potion, and so on.
On the other hand, a mere ONE of those abilities it MIGHT prevent will completely shut down a warrior, making not only his abilities, but the chance of retreat completely impossible.
PfA is fine as it is.
Actually, +x to will saves isn't a bad idea.
I think the wands are dc 12.
With a +5 to will that's going to be passed very easily, if not automatically, and gives an edge to characters that have a few points in wisdom (=> the presence of mind to resist suggestion occasionally).
Except for the odd GSF'd wizard, hold person will tend to be below dc 20 (probably about 17, give or take a couple) and, assuming an easily achievable basic save of 5 vs mind affecting, bumped to 10, gives a better than 50% chance of resisting.
Also, it would put the pressure on fighters to make the effort to wear items that enhance will saves rather than ac and bash enhancing items.
The fear factor is back for wizards, but a fighter can have very good odds if he takes advantage of a few +will items.
Think wands are DC 15 or 16 actually. Colourspray is DC12.
Totally against the suggestion as stated, because a single PfE potion would have been the difference between dying to a lone kobold, unbuffed, and not dying to a lone kobold, unbuffed.
Quote from: Anonymous Bosch;124932Also, it would put the pressure on fighters to make the effort to wear items that enhance will saves rather than ac and bash enhancing items.
The fear factor is back for wizards, but a fighter can have very good odds if he takes advantage of a few +will items.
Wearing items for + will is already incredibly beneficial, I'd wear any decent + will gear I got, because +1 ac amulets are worthless due to the cheapness of barkskin and +1 deflection rings are overridden by +2 ac from protection from alignment.
Currently there is a completely untouchable and incredibly dangerous pc wizard running about who managed to subdue several fully buffed people at once. If thats not fearsome, I don't know what it, I think you need to take time to know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes before you make judgements as to what might be balanced in favor of one or the other!
Also remember, adapt to efu, not the other way around!
The said dangerous wizard is of an incredulous level, not likely to be achieved by average joe wizard.
Quote from: Relinquish;125020The said dangerous wizard is of an incredulous level, not likely to be achieved by average joe wizard.
Level ten isn't what I would call incredulous as far as mechanical strength goes on this server. There are many much higher level npcs getting slaughtered everyday on scripted quests!
That said, by level seven a wizard is extremely potent when properly prepared, at level 5 it's the same. They're a little weaker to start but considering how vastly superior they are at the later efu levels I think it's a decent enough trade off. I hardly think any wizard worth his salt is going to have trouble defeating lowly warriors over an abundance of pfe potions though.
With due respect, I believe the real problem here is your skill in playing a spellcaster, and not PfA. There are plenty of ways a mage could beat a fighter besides HP.
Quote from: "TheImpossibleDream"Also remember, adapt to efu, not the other way around!
So what is the point of the suggestions forum? :P
This is not some great personal crusade I've taken upon myself.
It's something I thought of that I believe would result in a better power balance for the server.
Using the character that is possibly the best equipped and most powerful on the island as an average example of wizard being good isn't good science btw.
A wizard certainly is very good, but IMO bashing is very much prevalent.
If all future posts could have a relevant comment, and not just the same people complaining, I would appreciate it a lot.
Good stuff so far, by the way.
Suggestion forum is meant for the occassional balance tweak, but more for new features or interesting stuff rather than have debates on spells... or classes... or monsters... all the time.
Neither is assuming the wizard in question is the best equipped PC on the island 'good science', notwithstanding the fact that how well he might be equipped is entirely irrelevant to anything in this post!
I agree that using a specific PC to argue a general point is somewhat flawed, but even so, I believe even more strongly against any of the reasoning you have supplied for why PfE should be changed at all.
The simple fact that a wizard can dispel it, and easily. There's not much else to say, is there?
Well, I for one appreciated your suggestion, Bosch! But I don't think we'll make that change for now.
I'm in favor of any suggestions that limits drops that imitate spells, except ones that require UMD. Too many potions/unrestricted items of every kind, imo.
i am very pro crush monster men but think it would be cool if instead of immunity to mind affecting it became like +10 vs mind affecting or something LOL
Would make Mist Essence vey cool as the counter to PfX, by applying a -10 right back at them.
Quote from: Kotenku;125012Totally against the suggestion as stated, because a single PfE potion would have been the difference between dying to a lone kobold, unbuffed, and not dying to a lone kobold, unbuffed.
PFE is useful and unbroken. Easy to find, craft and use it's a staple of our little world. It's not overpowered and easily removed if need be. Most of us like it the way it is and for every point, there must be a counterpoint. I vote leave it alone.
Cyrptic as Kotenku's message above is, it is not without relevance.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2901/escapefromunderdar0000.jpg
Idea's been nicely shot down, so I think it's safe to say the suggestion isn't going to happen.
As a final note, if there were a fight between a fairly well equipped fighter and a fairly well equipped mage of equal, reasonably achievable level and assuming there is no pre-determined method of initiating combat (ie, can't necessarily assume a surprise attack from either party) I'd rate my chances of success higher playing as the fighter.
Not that it will stop me playing wizards from time to time, of course. Just my opinion on the relative strength of each class type.
There is an obsession with winning in one encounter.
If a mage and a warrior fight, the warrior won't have any chance of winning if the mage is fully prepared, or even if both are fully prepared. The mage will dispel everything so the warrior won't have any chance of harming the mage, and at best he will survive and manage to run away (if the mage runs out of spells, it will be easier to run away for him, because he remains buffed). Nobody wins, but the warrior will have wasted a lot of consumeables while the mages will only have wasted spells, which he will get back by resting, so next time they fight it's likely the mage will win. Another reason to not introduce any change that would make being paralyzed by HP more likely. This spell means instant death, PfA doesn't.
Quote from: MrGrendel;124905An all-or-nothing defense is perfectly fine against an all-or-nothing spell, which hold person effectively is.
Being the caster initiating with a hold person against a warrior is far more likely to guarantee you a won match (and virtually guarantees you can make a draw) than being a warrior initiating by chugging a PvA against a caster.
PvA does not disable the caster himself at all, and only makes certain of his abilities ineffective, and even that's making several assumptions, ie no dispell, the alignment actually matches the potion, and so on.
On the other hand, a mere ONE of those abilities it MIGHT prevent will completely shut down a warrior, making not only his abilities, but the chance of retreat completely impossible.
PfA is fine as it is.
Took me a while to answer, mostly because i haven't been online in a while but...
I disagree, entirely. Wizards/Sorcerers are the strongest of classes precicely because of that kind of power, take it away and they are support, and clerics can do better.
An all-or-nothing spell is still a bold move, if the fighter succeds in the save likely the wizard/sorcered dies next round. This is the kind of risk wizard take, their low HP and dependency on spells makes them very weak when attacked, they have to compensate it somehow: with massive offensive power. PfE is not an all-or-nothing defence, is a -nothing ever- defence, it makes whoever has the spell completly inmune to such power, forcing the mage to change their spells. Now.. if we agree than all-or-nothing attacks should be blockable with -nothing ever- defences, why not add a level 2 spell that makes players inmune to death magic as well?
Quote from: MrGrendel;124905An all-or-nothing defense is perfectly fine against an all-or-nothing spell, which hold person effectively is.
You said it yourself. And phantasmal killer is just one more level higher than hold person, and at the same level as hold monster.
Now, is hold person really a one-hit-kill spell? no. It isn't save or die, it effectively paralises the enemy and leaves him vulnerable, 1 on 1 yes, it means death, but EFU:A is not a solo server, even a person held can be saved if his party protects him: they an draw away fire from him, kill the attackers or heal him. Hey, i've been paralised by troll shamans before, yet none ever killed me.
Now i agree most frontliners are very weak to everything mind-affecting: they have 1 or 2 will against DCs of 15. But that's the point, the wizard/sorcerer may not be able to effectively deal with waves of mobs though other means than summons (or cloud spells that last long enough, a high level alternative only wich EFU:A doesn't offer) and with the duration of summons lowered as it is, neither can it be that way. But they can deal witha single enemy with extreme ease:warriors kill the mobs, wizards kill the bosses. Removing this capability leaves wizards as party buffers only, rarely seeing one that actually uses damage dealing spells, debuffs or summons, and even more rarely seeing such actions help.
It is fair that there us a way to protect the frontliners from this spells, specially when we talk about multiple wizards casting spells, but total inmunity is something you'd expect from a high level spell, because it is a very powerfull propiety. +5, +6.. that makes a will saving throw of 8 say, against DC of 15 when fighting strong enemies, and DCs of 12-14. That means more than half the times they will succed in the saving throw. Mind you, is a single spell that protected many frontliners, a nice bonus (when casted by a mage, not potion) and there are more things you an do to add to the fighters defence against mind spells: doesn't clarity gant inmunity as well (note it's a level 3 spell) how about some owl's wisdom buffing? a frontliner could get a DC of 9 or 10, even against a DC of 16 is saving from 75% of all spells cast, isn't that enough?
You also said that they need to match the alignment of the casters, for them to be protected, if you cast protection from evil and a good wizard casts hold upon you.. you're screwed. But then agian, how many quests have you fighting against good aligned enemes? about 10%? And even if it where more, before you start questing you can already know what you will face and use the proper protection, on PvP is a bit more risky, but all you have to do is look at the guy, his description, his RP and make a good guess, it isn't that hard considering all bad guys always wear black armor and have the power hungry voice set. Also, how often you fight a mob of combined alignements: good, netural and/or evil?
+6 saving throws against mind spells, and i defend my point.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;125148I disagree, entirely. Wizards/Sorcerers are the strongest of classes precicely because of that kind of power, take it away and they are support, and clerics can do better.
Your argument hinges upon this part. It fails, because wizards themselves have the ability to make sure this part of their power isn't taken away, via a dispell. Therefore, once we have realised this, what remains of your argument is:
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;125148Wizards/Sorcerers are the strongest of classes.
Only in the opening of the post, scroll down and you'll see some good points i think.
Okay lulz! First of all. What kind of wizard worth his salt has a DC lower than 20 when he's going to attack somebody, unless it's a level 1 spell, in which case its going to be at least 18 (this is assuming you started with 16 intellect or even 15 intellect) and have proper feats for the spells your caster favors.
You sound like someone who's very inexperienced when it comes to pvp/playing a wizard in EFU. So many players have been taken down by dispel and hold. As a wizard you don't even need more than two rounds to deal 100+ damage at level 5 or even six, thats including a dispel magic cast or wand use.
The ~only~ advantage a fighter has and I mean the ~only~ one is that a wizard has to be prepared to defend himself and any wizard worth his salt doesn't walk around with his "adventuring" spell set on his own in dark allies. when you do get caught with your adventuring spell set, you should be able to, with the assistance of your companions take down your aggressor or flee.
OP,
Play a fighter next...
And then re-think your suggestion.
<3 NWN veteran
Quote from: wcsherry;125225OP,
Play a fighter next...
And then re-think your suggestion.
<3 NWN veteran
He is playing a fighter now sherry hence his post lulz >.>
He's just new to the whole fighter using potions to self buff scene, you do feel you're invincible and don't know any better, until a wise wizard crushes you like an ant. <.<
Actually, this inspired this "scripted power for loot" idea I had
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=125278#post125278
Amulets that shift your Alignment to either Good or Evil for 20 minutes, but can't be removed during that time. A good way to get the drop on someone who's only protecting himself from your normal alignment, counter Paladin powers at the cost of losing access to your Evil loot etc.
Also, Wizard tip. Use Consumables Too. All my wizards carry emergency Haste, Displacement, Expeditous Retreat, Endurance, Clarity and PfX when I have them. Saves on spellslots for emergency self-buffs, and Displacement casts at a whopping L9 anyway, better than most PCs. Even if you don't brew, you can always scribe scrolls, which are better for the cheap spells as they don't incur AoOs and the extra cost isn't much.
Buy spare scrolls (expecially of L4 spells) off non-mages and have them quickslotted.