From another thread:
QuoteGoing on difficult Scripted Quests is already a dismal experience to be avoided at all cost.
Non-judgmentally, is this something that a lot of players agree with?
In my personal opinion, difficult scripted quests are two sides of the same coin. On one side, difficulty is necessary to provide risk and keep the average level of the server low, and provide a sense of accomplishment when you manage to complete said scripted quest without dying.
On the other side, it sucks to die to a scripted quest. Really sucks.
So are they necessary? Absolutely. Does it suck to die on them? Absolutely.
I admittedly don't get to go on them often, but I tend to enjoy myself when I get the chance to, certainly more so than a quest that's accomplished with no real difficulty or danger of losing.
If it's with people you're friends with, hard quests can be fun. I've certainly enjoyed playing with players who I work with often, especially since A: You win a lot more with fewer casualties, B: You can really develop your characters and relationships between chars, and C: I like the smell of good RP in the morning, right after the smell of Orc/Goblin/Human/Stargazer/Spider/Mort knows what else, in the morning.
However, if it's with a PUG (Pick up Group), they can be so hard I want to hurl.
So yes, it is needed to have hard quests for the Elite to play (LiS, Caddies, Mort when he plays his PCs) [note: when I say 'The Elite', I'm not trying to make an insult] and to keep the server level low (though L10 is really all you can get to by scripted questing easily, as L11 is, since you need to be that for what Legend Lore accoridng to D&D rules considers suitable for 'Legendary', quite fitting] but there should be something like this for a redick hard quest, namely 'The defenses are redicoulous, if you're not a well coordinated group, you'll have a hard time, so unless you're well coordinated and know how to work as a group, chances are you'll wind up as a pile of rotting corpses.' or something like that, or even hints partway through the quest hinting at the utter hell you will encounter.
For say, Gem Mine, why not put a 'Sad pile of adventurers' bones' somewhere, that, according to it's description, was hit by [Censured due to spoiler of endboss]. PC's (or people) who can comprehend it will get the idea that 'ah shite, we'll be in hell'. Those who just keep on grinding will be suprised.
That's what I like about Jergal's, there are hints leading to who you're facing if you take the time to look. I personally like hints being dropped along the way, it makes you wonder why it was bothered to be put in as other than secnery.
Argue my point as you will, I'll be back in oh, 18 hours to counter any arguements you have against me.
While I do agree that EFU:A is quite a hardcore server in terms of difficulty (some people enjoying this, some not), the fact is there are a gamut of easy quests that the players who shy away from challenge/adversity can and do spam, so its somewhat of a non-issue.
It is all situational, really, and depends on who you're with. A lot of the 'harder' quests are designed or balanced around fairly optimal questing groups in such a way that when people deviate it can quickly spell disaster. I for one tend to use the philosophy that I need to look out for myself, and it works well, but for a front line character this is nearly impossible with the raw amount of damage done and healing required.
The statement I made in the other thread bears some qualification. I didn't want to derail the other thread with it, but since the floor's been opeed for discussion here, I'll do so.
A lot of people go on and on about how surviving the tough quests, and taking risks is what makes the game fun. Well, technically speaking this is true. Tearing through enemies who once gave you difficulty, or you would expect to be difficult, and crushing them thoroughly under your heel is fun. It's amazingly fun. It's the opportunity to be the badass on the front line whose prowess in battle becomes the thing of legend. I think that's what most anybody who plays a Fighter-type character is hoping to achieve.
On the other hand, scraping through a difficult quest, bit by bit, constantly worried about that single critical hit that will kill you: It sucks. Being faced with the idea of "okay, this is hard, if we were sane we'd turn back, but OOCly, I really want to finish this quest so that all the supplies I already used won't be wasted" really does suck. It's an absurd catch-22 in which you have to choose between two options to maximize your enjoyment, and one way you're doomed to die, and the other you're out a pile of expensive supplies, and you find yourself just logging off the server, because now you have nothing to do.
In practice, that is the trouble that I find in attempting scripted quests.
The only way I can really see scripted quests becoming genuinely enjoyable would be if they were to dynamically scale to the capability of the players, and the amount of consumables they have available on their characters, such that, no matter what, you'll always be faced with a challenge, but the challenge will always be surmountable.
Obviously that's not ever going to happen though, so I, (and players like me, though right now there's no evidence to suggest that such creatures exist?) feel that sometimes the only way to win, is not to play.
At times, I have desired the challenge presented by a genuinely tough quest, and enjoyed the difficulty a great deal.
A couple more issues to raise: I have enjoyed character deaths on scripted quests before. I have LAUGHED, and felt that the setback was minimal. This has only occurred when the death was entirely my fault, through getting too cocky, trying to take on too many enemies at once, attempting feats of strength that my level 4 barbarian almost pulled off, but came up short. I mention this, because I don't like the idea of people thinking that I believe my character should never have to suffer death at all.
I just loathe and despise the idea of suffering a death that I COULD NOT AVOID. When I do everything I possibly can to survive, chug healing, down all my potions, walk in and out of battle, mitigate my risks, and I still end up getting inexplicably targeted by an overpowering enemy, (especially those who seem to come out of nowhere, without proper warning, except the advantage a player gains from foreknowledge (metagaming)) and get squashed in 3 rounds...
That is the experience that I cry out against. And it's an experience that occurs too frequently, in my opinion, to make the truly difficult quests a worthwhile experience.
Double posting, to provide people reading backwards a more succinct explanation of my position:
Difficult quests ARE fun.
BUT, overpowering monsters whose difficulties are out of proportion with the monsters around them,
who have the ability to kill every member of the party in sight, in a handful of rounds,
especially when ample warning isn't provided in advance of their existence,
are not fun to deal with, and, in my opinion, are not a legitimate way to make a quest difficult.
As an example, I'll present the Seer's Quest. There are two things of note on that quest. One was the occasional Bodak spawn, which has caused people to permadie their characters out of frustration. The other, was the boss. I am not suggesting that there was not an enormous amount of fore-warning that the boss would be difficult. My issue with the boss of Seer's was that compared to his minions, all of whom were easily dealt with, the boss's difficulty was astronomically greater. It was a non-sequitur which made attempting to complete the quest a punishing experience.
I prefer moderate scripted quests and tough DM quests / PvP. Why? The scripted quests are there to let you have fun and put you in the level range the DMs want. Hard scripted quests result in a lot of builds designed to survive them. Facing a thinking enemy, ie DM spice or PvP is where the fun is. What fun is it to die to an AI that is simple following a series of commands? Just my two cents.
Tough Quests are easily done by metagaming, and most of the so called easy quests, are only easy because of metagaming. Try to take Harpies quest without PfE with a group of fighters. I doubt anyone does that. Gazers quest, the goblin castle one, is also done easily by knowing where to go, and drinking the right potions. So, scripted quests become difficult if you go by the RP and without metagaming. Which is a little sad, in my opinion.
Personally, I like the challenge of the more difficult quests, even if I do end up using a large amount of consumables. When you are low on supplies, you have a good reason for more Rp until such time after spamming a few easier quests, you are ready for another run at a tough one.
Also, I think the tougher quests are great for getting faction members used to working together, the frontliners trusting the clerics to keep them healed, the wizards to not hit them with fireballs, and so forth.
I'd hardly call dropping a blur potion while under fire from lots of arrows or sinking a PfE while fighting harpies (known everywhere for their enchanting songs) metagaming.
To answer Kotenku's general theme of 'scripted quests which feature monsters that can kill you easily are horrible', there is quite simply a tactic to overcome every situation in NWN- provided you a) know what it is and b) have the means (usually in the form of the right consumables) to make it happen.
If you aren't confident you have enough supplies to travel down into a vampire's sanctum, then you probably shouldn't get pissy when you inevitably die because you ran out of what is needed to survive.
In the end, those 'overpowering' monsters who 'can kill your party in a matter of rounds' can, have and will be defeated by player characters with ease, if they use tactics/teamwork and are equipped to handle it.
As for ample warning of their existence, I can't recall a single monster of this stature in any scripted quest that players don't get forewarning about.
I think this thread is a subtle way of calling me out. Jerks
I don't like quests that control. By which I mean, restrict someone into having to do a certain thing to survive.
A team which is the best (ie, standard best buffs of stoneskin/concealment, fighter always blurred, healwand spamming cleric, etc) is already cordoned off into a little corner of "most effective" actions. What rankles, for me, is when this isn't a choice ; you have to do the quest like this or get wasted. Therefore, for these certain quests, people will just never do them without the fullplate fighter and mage that have those buffs, which is a shame.
No. I switched from Thain to EFU:A because i love challenge and this server is challening. People are not as coward when faced with a good challenge. In fact, it still is too dificult but merely dificult enough. I only die when fooling arround or when mr impacient rushes foward and i try to save him so he doesn't blame it on us. When my party takes things slowly, carefully and actually plans the strategy it always turns out well. This quests are only to be avoided if your that mr impacient who isn't pacient enough to plan a strategy.
Also because you have to go slowly to survive there are lots of chances for RP. And while i'm sick of what in Than we call "Campfire RP" wich is bascially tribial roleplaying in a safe place with no regular objective, Dungeon RP never tires me. So, i get my challenge, my reward, my roleplay.. what is not to like? death? pfft ever played Diablo II on Hardcore? having something to lose adds to the fun. Antoher thing i like about EFU:A when you die you don't only get a slap in the back.
I love dificult quests. They are better.
OOCly, there are times when I definitely avoid the harder quests unless a REALLY good group is forming because I don't want to run the risk of dying. I'm not IG as often as a lot of people so every death costs me (IMHO) a huge percentage of my time investment in play. I've been in EFU and EFUA for 2 years now and I've had one character make it to 9th (briefly) and one make it to 8th. And I'm not afriad to burn resources - I try not to overly metagame, either - as for harpies, for instance - my standard load out DOES happen to include a PFE - 10 foot radius. This has of course backfired on me in a certain other quest where the usual loadout of flame weapons is wasted because every creatures in there is fire immune - not to mention I usually don't carry magic weapon spells, making it doubly hard (a waste?). And lo and behold, I get reamed by players in tells for NOT metagaming and taking the "correct" load of spells! Yet on any other quest they are thrilled that they get the spells in my usual load!
So, bottom line, yes, there are some scripted quests I will not do because of their difficulty - it's not worth the risk given the amount of time I am able to be IG. If I was in more, the loss might not be so catastrophic as it could be recovered faster.
On a final note, someone earlier mentioned the notion of being the badass who gets to join and stomp little things - I would LOVE to be able to play that role. Back in my PnP days, if only 1 or 2 players could be found, we would take their characters through a lower level module and it was fun and often still a challenge, even with the higher HP, spells, and goodies. I would motion that for the REALLY high level people (9-11) they be allowed access to some of the lower level quests as solo or maybe with a single partner so:
a) they can have something to do
b) resupply
c) get that ass kicking feeling
Is the counter argument that it's too easy? I dunno. I could see two 9th level guys getting hurt in Harpies for sure, and definitely in some of the other "lower level" ones, like the wolves! If the argument is something else, and that it takes the challenge out of it - don't do those quests then - if they are of miniscule XP payout, then they are of little interest to a lot of people other than the novelty. It would take a LONG time to get to next level at 100 XP per quest! Besides, if the idea of the game is to have fun, and there's a larger enough fan base of permitting this option - maybe opening a single quest to this - it could be tried AND make some folks happy.
Quoted while trying to edit. Ignore me.
I just hope the risk-reward ratio has been fixed in my absence. As long as a hard quest pays off and isn't impossible, it's usually fine. That was not my personal experience.
I agree with Scotty.
Hard quests that force you to use a ton of supplies are a lot of fun, but it's a kick in the nards when you realize that you probably spent 500-1000 coin of supplies and get a cure moderate item with 10 charges and a few potions.
It gives PVPers a huge advantage on this server when they get a goldmine of coin and supplies from FDing a character, when characters that are grinding out tough quests like orcs or the new barracks quest are taking a loss. So they don't want to do them because they know the risk far outweighs the reward.
Which btw, is a damn shame. I LOVE the barracks quest, but it's a massive item drain unless you have a couple of Lathanderite clerics turning everything.
And I - really - don't like the philosophy of "well, sometimes there is a really KEWL item that drops on that quest - so it is worth it." Once in a while, only one character gets something sweet, and the others send them tells saying Wow! and such.
Here's my solution to that. If the KEWL item doesn't drop, then a slew of coin or potions should. I'm suggesting coin to keep it simple and equitable. If players had more coin, they'd buy more stuff from each other and crafters could make a living off of RPing a crafter.
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As a side note, IMO the purple crystal mine has all but destroyed the healing potion/wand market for crafters.
I agree with Gwydion's final point.
The Mine should, in my opinion, have a limit similar to certain lowbie quests.
Okay... I'm not entirely sure how to say this, but here it goes:
I like tough quests, sometimes. And I enjoy fun quests, all the time.
Naturally, when I'm in a quantitative mode what is fun is to gain something tactical by the event, be that a greater collection of loot then what was burned, a greater bit of experience, or even those rare times when you nab a level. Facing some of the more deadly quests during these periods are non-existent for me. I simply wont do them, no matter whats the rational behind them, unless I have some manner of OoC confidence that the challenge can be overcome. (That means stocking to fight through a great wyrm and questing only when there is a effective or perhaps optimized questing party.)
Through Personal experience I have found that characters that take on challenges that they weren't built for, normally only earn negative/slim rewards, or death. Whereas, those players that are walking with the staple NWN buffs and Optimized teams have allot more fun crushing things, are far safer, and get wayyyy more items/loot/equipment out of the same quests. This discrepancy starts to seriously add up overtime.
This isn't always the case. We have allot of low to medium range quests that very fun in their own right. These quests are tailored to those groups that don't have the set optimized setup. An important distinction happens here, however, The optimized group yawn their way through it, smash rape pillage and plunder, while they stock up for those super hard quests that get their blood pumping. The non-core group gets that blood pumping experience here, on these more "spammed" quests. They are challenging (to the non-core group), they meet new people, they can trust in even a disorganized group -can- survive, and they can have some fun.
The problem comes when these non-core groups, tackle some of the upper end quests. They haven't been stocked out the wazoo like their contemporaries, and the challenge before them is sometimes impossible for this group to survive. Meta-gaming becomes almost necessary (assuming they even know), and as Kotenku explained earlier, once you start a quest, nothing sucks more then having to turn around and walk out. (except maybing a TpK, or unaviodable death)
To clarify: "Core" or "Optimized" group does have allot of variation. I'm not saying that everyone needs a Buffbot + Tank + Smasher, just that no one is worse off by having them.
[INDENT]Edit:: I have noticed something striking on the new version of this server, at least for me. I never cared what my HP was in the Underdark, you could live with minimum. Here? Some of these events are so hard that rolling minimum HP can cripple a fighter class, or just seriously ruin the whole joy of leveling at all. That never happened to me before, and I have to say its becuase of how hard this server can be at times.
[/INDENT]
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I do enjoy role playing out the darn near fatal quests and getting the really down and dirty experience out of them, which non-core groups seem to enhance, but I definitely need to be in a more qualitative mood, and around a group of Characters that I like allot.
Quote from: "Gwydion"As a side note, IMO the purple crystal mine has all but destroyed the healing potion/wand market for crafters.
When the Upper levels bring 7-8 people this quest is awesome and doesn't end in everyone getting wands worth of healing. However, this statement is true, except I have been using the gold on other items... say arcane potions in lue of the healing market. So its just not how it used to be, not necessary worse.
I'm notoriously known at sucking at questing, but I in particular -love- difficult quests. Quests where you always feel like you're going to die around every turn.
it gives a sense of accomplishment to walk out of it alive. More over though, I love difficult quests for one single reason: if I have never done it before, I am amazed. That simple.
My last character I did Orcs Two with for the first time. It was messy. We had a non-optimal party in any sense, but when we completed it, I felt -great-. It was a knock down dragout fight where I used up all my supplied, and walked out alive...until I got jumped by the very last monster we saw after beating the boss. xD
I was pissed, Sure, but it was great.
Doing a difficult quest for the first time is what EFU is all about to me. Even if you suck at questing, you can have a ton of fun if you are lucky enough to manage to get out alive.
Just like adventuring.
I like adventure, so it works well for me.
Hard quests should definitely remain in the module, but not every quest should be hard, and I definitely agree with those who say that -most- quests should have reward fitting the difficulty (not all, sometimes quests should just gut-punch you when it comes to reward).
The only quest I think is really out of balance regarding reward to difficulty is the Illithyiiri ghost quest in the 3-6 range. It's definitely beatable, but I don't think I've gone on a run of this where the party had a better than 50% survival rate. It also tends to not give any rewards other than experience and a few rusted helms that give +1 concentration and are only usable by elves or something like that.
I think I saw it suggested before that some quests could have two options on the placeable - one for normal and one for hardcore. Normal mode could represent an "average" group, and be balanced for parties that maybe have one mechanically strong character, but gave unimpressive rewards in terms of loot and experience. Hardcore mode could have something like a 95% mortality rate and give a very sizable reward. This would allow some quests that have fun server lore and so forth to be taken by less powerful groups without getting the incredible rewards, and still provide a challenge and corresponding reward for risk-takers. Of course, the most epic quests should always be left with only hardcore mode.
Yes, the first time into and through a quest-- is almost universally awesome. Doesn't matter if everyone died, or everyone managed to survive, or various states of gray.
New quests and DM events, when there is truly adventure to be had: ROCK.
I'm divided. While I love to just chill and interact with people to learn abotu their PCs or to insult them or something, the fact is everybody just quests so much it's ridiculously hard to get them to do anything else other than quest, because truly that is the only really way for them to gain XP in the end. So it sort of becomes a beat 'em or join 'em thing. I usually play the kind of PC that either crushes a quest, tanks amazingly or rocks the buffs, to the point where even when I'm trying to RP, someone always comes up to me and the person I'm talking to, trying to recruit me for a quest.
I would love it if there was a way for player faction leaders (That DMs think are responsible) or just responsible players in general (Read; level 9-10 PCs who can't quest anymore, like Craddock or so.) were given a way to award XP to their minions for completing missions and tasks. This would encourage more player-player interactions, talking, spying, echanging information, hardcore merchanting, conflict, intrigue, all kinds of crazy stuff that would allow a player to advance without necessarily having to quest.
That said, I love a hard quest.Using all my supplies just so I can keep myself and my party alive, is super fun. Spice makes it so much greater. HOWEVER, the one biggest gripe I have with spice is the tendancy for DMs to spawn stuff past the line of fighters fairly close to the back, which proceeds to decimate the support PCs. Or worse, even closer and perhaps right beside them. If they were sneaking types that stealthed up, that would be cool and give the back or the fighters a chance to yell "OMG SNEAKER GET IT". As it is, I see a lot of *Spawn the creature* "Shit!" *Dead* *another dead* *maybe one or two more dead*.
For me this is not fun, really. Especially when the monster is a bigass troll or something that should never have made it by without one of the frontliner intercepting it. If the monster barrels through the line in an attempt to crush the back that is totally cool, but I absolutely loath when a DM spawns a non sneaking npc right next to or behind a player like this, because it almost always kills them. (Keeping in mind, I have no issue with enemies coming from behind, as long as it makes sense. If you're in an area where re-enforcements could arrive or they could double back behind you, a party should definately be prepared for this, and can be really fun if another wave approaches from behind!)
One point I would like to stress though, is I have seen TONS of quests and spice where the only option was retreat, but players would proceed to try and die in order to get to the end was the only way to get rewarded. It should be fairly simple to add a non exploitable way to EFUQS that gives a reduced reward on some quests for 'trying', even if you fail.
TL; DR; I really think there should be a way to gain XP aside from questing as some PCs (Like merchants) Do not necessarily quest at all or very often. I don't really like seeing something in the hands of EVERY player, but for the few the DMS think are responsible enough, it would prevent the need for these kind of PCs to be DM handholded to level up. Something like this could be easily tracked for abuse, and only given to players the DMs trust with it anyways. (High ranking DM faction players or Player faction leaders, Etc.)
Also, while I agree the death penalty should be harsh, I do not really like having to spend 1-2 days just to get back to where I was the day before. Losing levels like this can be really discouraging, while I am generally not minding the XP loss too much; I have seen so many people ragequit because they just lost the 'sweet spot' for their class and don't want to spend days relevelling only to die again and repeat. IMO Death should be 1/6 1/9 /1/12. (Or be capped at losing 1.5 levels) That way, even at level 8 you are not going to drop down to level 5. People who do not powerquest like myself, Nihm, and Naga, usually have a great deal of difficulty leveling up so while losing a couple days/hours for us is kind of annoying because it means more quests to smash, I can imagine it is more frustrating for the ones who are not shameless powerquesters because it takes them much longer to earn it back.
@Cruzel: I am against the idea of giving players the ability to grant experience, regardless of how good they are, or how responsible. Even if that player uses the privilege legitimately and responsibly at all times, I think it would be detrimental to the server. People already see elitism where it doesn't exist just with things like DM loot or prominent political positions. This system would certainly have benefits, but the downside outweighs them.
Ohhh the horror stories I could tell you. I agree 100% with Ebok's point that non Power Gamer charactors, ones who are not min/maxed with feats specificly taken to make them gods in PvE are at a painfull disadvantage.
I personal with Nas'felor need a hotkey that says "Don't worry, I allways die at lvl5". Want to know why that is? because hes a lvl 5 cleric of kelemvor whos built in a way to make him a prime cleric of kelemvor, but a pathetic PvE charactor when hes not fighting undead.
This means in just about any quest that has a lvl req 3-8, 75% of the creatures can kill me in 3-4 hits. Goblin archers, goblin rogues, nightriser archers, any NPC with sneak attack including cats, creatures with an average damage greater then 10 a hit, most lvl 3 or higher spells. All of these in small amounts, sometimes one one or two hits, will drop me either below 0 or dead. So far I have yet to do a Vraz quest, in the 3 times I have attempted it, and live. Same goes with the barracks in which I've died in both attempts. Of the three times I have done the observatory, I've died in two of them from mass magic missle swarms.
And you know what, I'll keep doing them because I enjoy Rping with the others I go with, though I may never get past lvl 5 if every time I step into a room I get plastered with my 38 hp. Shure the R/W ratio is out of wack for players trying with charactors on the lower side of the lvl requirements.Those who often have to use all of their healing to reach the boss only to have junk loot be the reward. But sometimes if the Rp is there its worth it anyways.
I like quests of all varieties. Although I will sometimes shirk off a quest if I know my PC is unprepared. Sometimes I will go anyway and it will be even more fun. It all depends on my mood, and the luck of how things unfold.
Regardless of the difficulty, I like RP during quests. The two are not exclusive. This has been a bit hit-or-miss lately.
I think that some folk are looking at different ends of the extreme when they say "people who don't optimize their characters stats cannot prosper in scripted quests"
I think you'll find that most decent players who quest often are actually just good with mechanics and don't need to optimize their characters combat potential in order to complete high end quests.
Though I'm not saying their aren't a few people who will optimize to the max, because I'm sure there are plenty of clueless folk who rely on that six cha twenty str wood elf fighter with expertise and a bastard sword in order to get ahead, but I will say they are few and far between.
Back on topic, hard quests are nice, they aren't for everyone and thats good too, provides alot of variety and caters for multiple styles of play. People just need to think about whether they really, ooc'ly want to take the risk when going on one of these quests, there are no quests in the module that I feel any kind of character is obligated to go on when mentioned ic'ly.
Quests are to add to the fun that is efu, and if you feel that the consequences of a quest are too harsh for you and might disrupt your enjoyment I would think it best you avoid that particular quest, it's not like there aren't ~plenty~ of other quests to do and people to play about with!
I'm sorry in advance for terrible grammar/format I'm too sleepy to proof read it! :(
The difficulty range here is excellent.
Easy ones to sleepwalk through, difficult ones that a small, well prepared and "optimised" group can do if they play well and really difficult ones that will keep any group on their toes.
Sounds about perfect to me. :)
Besides, if everything was designed to be just a little bit challenging to your non-optimal parties, there would be no challenges for the much maligned optimal parties.
Personaly I enjoy the hard quests way more than the easy ones, But you have to take into thought that it will be expensive for a character to do this, so you have to be well equiped and that makes it hard to do for alot of players.
But all in all i absolutely love doing the hard quests, even though it happens too seldon.
Challenges are fun.
Tough quests are fun.
Doing the Hive quest without a buffer for instance is fun and a great challenge eating TONS of consumables.
Tough quests are fun, as the adrenaline kicks in bad.
I don't see any reason to change anything with it. (Aside from the Orc Berzerkers not dropping a CSW potion anymore, usually ending up with people almost killing each other when loot-splitting for any healing potions that drop. IMO, to have changed their drop, was a mistake. As, if one of the members of your party on the Orc quests commits -1- mistake, you end up using 10-15 such potions.)
Scripted quests are fun. If anything is to change, I'd like to see more of them myself however. Can make one want to throw up sometimes, to do all teh SAME ones again when making a new character. (not to mention, that the journal entry about scripted Q's mentions over a 100 of them >.<)
And seriously, how much I despise it, I still love the D&D randomness when it comes to dying - a fun example - my PC is at 1/2 HP. I decide to drink a pot, surrounded by 3 berzerkers. They all score a Crit on an attack of opportunity. Plop. Insta-fugue.
Annoying, but it is how it is. FUn as well.
Not that I make much sense here, so.. over and out!
EDIT: Oh, and one last thought. Tough quests usually pay back ONLY if the party rumbled through the quest Flawlessly. No single mistake. Change this. Make the quests pay back also if the party isn't a perfect party and commits a few mistakes on the way.
I do not think so at all, you cant expect it to be a walk in a park at all.
The reward for hard quests is fun and xpzzzz.
The reward for easy quests is loot to burn through on hard quests.
Not that I'd complain about more loot. >_>
The server is very well balanced in terms of difficulty imo: easy quests, that give loot to do harder quests, and lots of medium quests. If some players don't like doing harder quests... just don't, there's plenty to go around.
What i do have a problem with is the balancing in consummables: sometimes i just hoard lots of ressources, and then suddenly i'm as dry as a desert (tougher quest, things go wrong, tough DM spice) and it takes time to build up supplies again. I don't mind because i play a lot, but for players with less time to 'start again', it might be rough.
Speaking of 'harder quests', maybe it's worth asking those that are considered such. (and even then, it so much depends on who you quest with...) For example, for me, the tough quests are (for varying reasons):
- orcs part2
- lizard men
- sewer goblins
- barracks
- archeological society.
- evil below
It doesn't come as a surprise, too, because those never get called for via sendings.
Moar perma death.
Pretty much what Kotenku said.
Facing a constant challenge that tests your ability to adapt and cope with the threat is fun. Facing something that can smackdown your frontline in 2 rounds isn't. It's "I hope we finish it before it crits down Bob"
That's a big gripe with mine with tough-ass mobs. The best way to deal with a risk of that is on a caster is to load up Holding and Stoneskin or imp invis usually. When I've ran my mages with nuking loadouts occasionally, and I've found "insurmountable horde" more fun than "half a dozen badasses". Why? Because a well placed Fear, Fireball, Colorspray etc can swing the fight. Load up on evocations for Harpies and you'll see what I mean.
I'd love to see more quests where the usual tactics just won't work. Say, you have to fight a legion of Kobolds, who aren't that strong, but have sorcs spamming Dispels and summoning Oozes (As those see past invis). Have this information given by the quest giver NPC, so PCs have an IC reason to use different tactics.
We have tough quests? That's new.
Just as an aside, I'm surprised that Orc part I, and Nightriser part I dont show up in that list. Those quests, when I introduced them, people were like "WAAAAAAAAH! Too hard! Doesn't pay enough." -- Probably a similar thing with gnolls.
Barely touched them since then so- what happened? Attitude toward them has certainly changed. The fact that people go "WAAAAAAAH! Too hard. Doesn't pay enough!" to anything *new* to them or their character is common to a lot of people.
I've seen a group of 3 level 5s finish brood lair quest. One of them did die, but they finished it.
The thing is -- The harder the quest. The more teamwork it requires. If you do hard quest with people that dont play team, it will show and you will burn tons of thing.
Share your stuff for the purpose of the quest. Give a healing crystal to that low level who does nothing in the back and ask him to keep you healed. Share stuff with other warriors and dont hoard.
If you have good teamwork, any quest aside from enclave (and even then!) can seem real easy.
I'm going to agree with mort,
I've done pretty much every quest on the surface, barring the enclave. And while -some- of them are tough as nails, there have been instances where good teamwork, and well prepared pc's have steam rollered them. I love the idea of a good challenge. A lot of people know i've played some pc's that are well known for their powerquesting. but thats mainly cause i just love the intesnity of some of the quests we have.
I like the fear factor, knowing that at any given time, shit could and possibly will go horribly wrong. And the main reason whinge about finding quest too hard is very simple, they all believe in "saving their REALLY AWESOME stuff" for PvP.
Which is just retarded, If i think my pc might be in a bad situation i have no problem with using -everything- at my disposal to stay on my feet, wherether it be pvp, scripted or dm quests. Thats my opinion on why a lot of people whine about stuff being too hard, it not actually, it just you refuse to make it easier on yourselves.
The various "hard" quests in the server are just that... hard. Yet I must say that every one of these hard quests have considerable pay out, spoils to be collected, and of course the XP. Yes you will have to tap into your bag of potions, trinkets, and items to see them completed... but honestly what are you carrying all that stuff around for if not to use it to survive?
Quote from: Howland;122427From another thread:
QuoteGoing on difficult Scripted Quests is already a dismal experience to be avoided at all cost.
Non-judgmentally, is this something that a lot of players agree with?
To be back on point of the original question... this is not something I agree with, Howland. I think going on difficult Scripted Quests is in fact a way to challenge your PC in an environment where either glory will be had or death will befall you... though not permanent unless you wish it to be.
I prefer the tougher quests with less then optimal parties because you have to use your mind, not just mash the "a" button. Then again, that's likely why in 4 years I've only had two characters make lvl 8.
As a side, I don't think its useful to essentially call players who air grievances babies. Disagree with them if you like, but the characterization of them as immature whiners is not productive.
Quote from: "Mort"If you have good teamwork, any quest aside from enclave (and even then!) can seem real easy.
I agree, but this isn't something that you can always control, and shouldn't. While more experienced players and better-connected characters can gather their super-team for quests, there are many reasons this doesn't happen all the time. For example, you invite along less experienced players/characters, or someone you brought out does not get along IC.
I'm sure some people do always gather super-teams, but then that essentially changes what is defined as difficult. (Maybe that is part of what Mort is saying though)
Readgin most of the posts above, i can say, there should be as many easy quests as tough quests. Because it's true you have to find a party of inteligent people to actually take on thouse, and that is dificult.
On a note aside, regarding Mort's second post, quests are only hard unitll you know how to complete them. Once you learn what to do in certian scenarios the scenarios no longer are a threat, if you are carefull. Sure, that's metagaming, but it can't be avoided, even if you wanted too.
There has to be some challenge to balance the server. I would not play here if it was simply an easy grind to level 10-11. Being high level, with difficult quests, means you're a team player and that you've got friends. This is good. That said, there's really not too many hard quests on the server. Hard is certainly just a matter of opinion. Sometimes though, I sort of relent spice on already hard or long quests, 3 hours for one quest already seems enough. >_>
Personally I love them. If my computer could handle them I would do one or two every day.
The problem is that, with my computer in the sad shape it is, I cannot swing any quest with great deals of spawns/interesting terrain/anything that causes computers to go haywire. My peak is gnolls which I only pulled off once without dying, and that due to Gwydion giving me stoneskin. Oh yeah. That was beautiful.
Hard quests iz fun!
Quote from: HowlandFrom another thread:
QuoteGoing on difficult Scripted Quests is already a dismal experience to be avoided at all cost.
Non-judgmentally, is this something that a lot of players agree with?
Absolutely not. It sounds as if this player would prefer to be a sourpuss then ask a friend that is successful at scripted quests for advice on how it is done.
I find any quest hard.
I love the rush I get right before transitioning into a tough quest, or one that may not be 'tough', but one I haven't been on. I do however have to say that I have learned the hard way, that there are groups that in no way shape or form will I venture with.
A quest is to be a GROUP effort, if you be frontliner, mid-range protection or Healer / caster, the glory of the fight is to be for ALL of them.
There have been more times than I can count that the deaths I have suffered have been because the frontliners want the glory and leave the rest of us in the dust. I have had my character die, then sit in the fugue waiting for the 'all clear' only to find out they had finished the quest and 'forgot'.
We ALL hate loseing XP, but I can deal if it was a well deserved death, if I made the mistake, or my character got in over her head.
So anyway back to the topic. Hard quests are great, the threat of death is always around the corner, the adrenline rush of not knowing is part of what makes it all worth it. Don't change that.
Quote from: Staring Death;122582I find any quest hard.
Seems some people think the hard quests are easy or not realy hard, but can I ask you a question. What class(s) are you? Bet most of you will say fighter/rogue or some other combo that attempts to up you're hp while still getting the benifits of a low hp classes special. Do you honestly think a group of all fighter/rogues and a ton of healing makes for a good judgement of a quest's difficulty. How about next time instead of taking a bunch of people near the max for the quest lvl req who all have 60-70+ hp instead take people at the lower to mid side with some rogues, clerics or mages added in, charactors who won't have the uber hp of a fighter. I mean most of you basicly have stated the way to win a hard quest is to Metagame and take people you know to be high lvl....
Mort, the reason no one complaines about barracks is because 1: Its not done very often and 2:when it is attempted the groups are very restrictive, usualy requiring you to be near the high end of the lvl cap, this is because the groups that don't, have a very good chance to TPK. You also bring up a good point, about asking the low lvl to heal with somthing you give them, only problem is them getting close to the fight can trigger the AI to target them through a group of fighters, meaning they end up running all the way to the start of the quest or dying.
The reason people complain about whats new to them is because they have not yet mastered the quest enough to use the OOC info to beat it over and over. I'll bet you when Vrazden first came out people had issues with it, till they mastered the traps, the way in, the best way to prevent goblin acrchers from hitting them, where the traps inside are, where goblin sneak attackers are, and everything else. Now that they have people farm Vraz runs for fun, which is not good.
I forget where it is but some of you need to re read the post that states every time you do a scripted quest, its different then the time befor accoring to yer charactor. So no acting like you know where everything is or what to expect, and then using that to base yer group on. I can understand some use of the OOC info but if its entirely what yer group is formed around then thats sad.
I love the feeling of danger on this server. Not sure I've done any of the "though quests" though. Hardest I've done is stalwartly holding my ground ("tactically retreating" too, tbh) against waves of waves of orcs. Was a blast. (Sent a few I.O.U. prayers to Moradin that night :))
Only critical remark I have, I find the discourse concerning this to be rather schizophrenic on EFU;A. As I understand the culture you are cultivating, the ideal player is daring both in terms of RP and mechanical challenges; he chooses "wacky" feats (that make sense for his character) and favors odd weapons, yet he also fully embraces the arcade game aspects of NWN as he throws himself into the fray without concern for limbs and/or perma-death. Now, that's a tall order!
In maintaining a close (almost indistinguishable) relation between the mechanical reality and the roleplayed reality of the game, and when the mechanical reality is rather harsh/difficult; you should be more understanding of people attempting to make decent builds, IMO.
My thoughts!
Kjetil
Quote from: Cruzel;122481Also, while I agree the death penalty should be harsh, I do not really like having to spend 1-2 days just to get back to where I was the day before. Losing levels like this can be really discouraging, while I am generally not minding the XP loss too much; I have seen so many people ragequit because they just lost the 'sweet spot' for their class and don't want to spend days relevelling only to die again and repeat. IMO Death should be 1/6 1/9 /1/12. (Or be capped at losing 1.5 levels) That way, even at level 8 you are not going to drop down to level 5. People who do not powerquest like myself, Nihm, and Naga, usually have a great deal of difficulty leveling up so while losing a couple days/hours for us is kind of annoying because it means more quests to smash, I can imagine it is more frustrating for the ones who are not shameless powerquesters because it takes them much longer to earn it back.
1-2 days to re-level? Try 2-3 weeks to re-level on my playing schedule! That's what I was talking about earlier with my tendency to avoid the "hard" quests. Although I still do them when it's ICly unavoidable, I go forth fully expecting my death, which often happens *cough* goblin assassins "decloaking" and killing in two rounds my fully invisible and blurred wizard in Vrazdn *end cough*
Quote from: KjetilofNorway;122699Only critical remark I have, I find the discourse concerning this to be rather schizophrenic on EFU;A. As I understand the culture you are cultivating, the ideal player is daring both in terms of RP and mechanical challenges; ... as he throws himself into the fray without concern for limbs and/or perma-death. Now, that's a tall order! ...
Kjetil
Ok, to clarify as a DM, while it's cool to see ballsy characters, I also appreciate a well roleplayed coward or a well roleplayed character who does not rely on brute force.
What I do dislike is people who roleplay brave characters/bad asses but are scared of being challenged in the game OOCly, be it via PVP or difficult quests. If you're gonna play a bad ass, do it well. If you're gonna play a coward, do it well.
I don't think this is an issue at any rate as most of our playerbase is pretty cool about this sorta thing.
There's a lot of misunderstandings here, only some of which I'll address for now.
The big one is that is your responsibility as a player to enjoy the server in the way you most enjoy.
For some players that will be the challenge of an unusual or zany build and struggling to survive.
For others it will be intrigue, or social RP, or exploration. Others it will be adventuring/questing. And so on.
We have certain guidelines, and each DM no doubt has their own preference, but we're not here to punish players/playstyles we don't like - merely enforce the rules. It is true that part of our rules is that you should play your stats, so if a player makes an extremely min-maxed wood elf barbarian with very little int/charisma/wisdom then we will frown heavily upon them not appropriately roleplaying those reduced stat scores and will act to correct that.
Very few of our quests (particularly on the surface) are truly difficult (of course it's all subjective), and all of our quests can absolutely be beaten by non-optimized characters or parties (a little teamwork and basic NWN competence does help though). But players have the option to do what they want - simple quests or the intense quests, their choice.
The argument that some of our more intense quests are insufficiently rewarding seems pretty off base to me. I guess all I'd say is that if you avoid a quest because you think it's not rewarding enough, just be aware that those who don't may earn advantages with their character (whether it be loot, consumeables, xp, or whatever else) beyond what you'll find on the "easier" quests.
I think it's definitely good for the server to have a few super intense quests that players can attempt at the high level range and still earn XP on, find situations where there's a very serious risk of death, and still face significant excitement/challenge. More are planned and are in the works - it's up to every individual player if they choose to go or not.
More high level quests please.
Really hard quests of varying style.
That sums up my feelings.
I very much enjoy long and hard quests. They are absolutely worth it for the fun factor.
Quote from: Howland;122821I think it's definitely good for the server to have a few super intense quests that players can attempt at the high level range and still earn XP on, find situations where there's a very serious risk of death, and still face significant excitement/challenge. More are planned and are in the works - it's up to every individual player if they choose to go or not.
Please let one of these be a voyage quest. There is so much opportunity for high seas adventure.
It would be sweet if it was like the Odyssey, but with each island you arrive at being another optional QA. Somewhere in the chain could be really nice islands where you just get to rest and stuff, but most of them are horrible, deadly affairs.
I have heard numerous great things about hard quests, except one thing: The Length.
I've heard from players there are some 3+ hour quests, and while I think that's kind of cool, I honestly couldn't ever see myself partaking in such unless it was a DM involved thing that I had been working to advance for quite some time.
Higher level and intense is awesome, but 3 Hours+ Is a little much I think. Maybe instead of length, simply place harder monsters, on a semi-regular length quest maybe?
Quote from: AKMatt;123269Please let one of these be a voyage quest. There is so much opportunity for high seas adventure.
It would be sweet if it was like the Odyssey, but with each island you arrive at being another optional QA. Somewhere in the chain could be really nice islands where you just get to rest and stuff, but most of them are horrible, deadly affairs.
This is a fantastic idea!
I like tough quests, but you guys know it can be tough to get a good group together that stick together for that amount of time!
I gotta agree with quite a few other people have said. Challenging and hard quests are great. But long quests makes things tedious and irritating, e.g. keeper swarms with 50% concealment (has the DMs reached a new ruling on that by the way?).
Yes, one thing is making an enounter of about the same level of your party with a position with advantage and a good combination of enemies, another one is throwing a level 10 fire giant on a level 5 parrty.
I dislike extremely difficult quests, for whatever reason. Probably because I don't enjoy RPing fighters. Occasionally I'll find a way to make a fighter interesting, and it turns out the only way he or she'll be successful is if they don't use the weapons that make them interesting or if they happen upon a treasure hoard of various buffing potions.
I especially dislike quests that require underwater travel. Drowing to death ticks me off, and so I avoid watery quests a lot. Mostly since dying underwater practically gurantees death at respawn.
Perhaps on the voyage quest, there would be somewhere along the chain to set a spawn point, so the group could come back later.
Quote from: AKMatt;123269Please let one of these be a voyage quest. There is so much opportunity for high seas adventure.
It would be sweet if it was like the Odyssey, but with each island you arrive at being another optional QA. Somewhere in the chain could be really nice islands where you just get to rest and stuff, but most of them are horrible, deadly affairs.
That is the best idea in the history of the world.
Or, alternatively, just have a quest where you sail to a random island, and each island had a different theme. That way the quest would be cooler to go on, because you wouldn't know which island you'd land on.
I like the though quests, during them and DM quests while keeping barely alive, I like it. Also the RP in betwen as it is so hard and so, uh. I like it.
Well, speaking from having just beaten the Longest Night, i stand by what I said even more. Epic quests where you're constantly having to face lots of threats are cool (longest night). The odd thing that can kick your ass in a couple of rounds isn't really fun. (shargaas disciples pretty much rule out offensive maging on Wild orcs II). A good tough quest is one where you don't need to run things "THIS way" to survive, as that just leads to metagaming tactics and boredom
However, the tough quests really do need some better payoff in a few cases. I know they have some truly powerful rare drops you can't get anywhere else, but if you can make more profit off Vrazdn or Broodhive then nobody's going to bother with them. Enclave, yeah, that's "epic test of a tough group", but Longest Night? Lizardmen? Never see them done. Both are long, challenging quests that will usually lose you supplies, have a considerable risk of fugueing you, and not
At the end of a difficult quest, players need to know that they'll get back the tonloads of consumables they used in getting through it. Otherwise, it means you need to farm easy quests to get them back, which is boring and droll.
Well, or that you get something different but worthwile. Armors and things aren't so much of a draw for quests that sap consumables, as there's likely going to be competition for it. Unless you get good payouts on all quests, some will fall out of favour,
Gem Mines for example doesn't give out much healing or standard potions, but does have several unique, powerful consumables that are well worth doing it for.
What I didn't mention on the last post is that one of the big upsides to short easier quests is that they allow you to try new tactics. I remember Daz's method of beating a large part of Trogs by having everyone used ranged weapons and cantrips to pick trogs off as they charged. Harpies has always been a favourite of mine as the shortness and number of good chokepoints make it an excellent practice ground to try AoE damage spells out.
Purple Crystal Mine is another quest where I like to try different spell loadouts, trap combinations, devices etc.
That actually gives me the thought of adding a few short, fairly easy quests where the usual tactics just won't work, with that obvious from the outset so you can prepare for it. Enemies with Fire Immunity, so no Flame Weapon. Quests where you know you'll only be facing Neutral foes so PfE is pointless to bring along. Enemies with a known Piercing vulnerability and a high Slashing and Bludgeoning immunity, so a lot of PCs will be fighting with unfamiliar weapons unless they like doing 1-2 damage. Elemental creatures with low HP but that have permanent Elemental Shield and Mestil's Acid Sheath, making ranged combat the only sensible option to kill them (Upgraded versions of the ghostly orbs that cast Death Armor.). In fact, I would love to see the Explosive Zombies from Tomb of Jubal back. The ones that set off a fireball when they were hit, and you had to spot and kill at a distance FAST.
Stuff like that would make knowing what you're facing as important as knowing who you're with so far as spells, weapons etc go, and add more variety to quests.