Hi there, I do apologize first off if this is more suited for the suggestions forum, than the general discussion. I just wished to bring this up, so that perhaps it can be explained properly too me, or other's insights will make it easier for me too cope with.
Now, this is no way meant too insult anyone in particular, or be insulting in general, but I've noticed the server seems too have...for lack of a better word, lack of appreciation too time and effort.
What I mean by this, for example the dwarf assault on the Orog event last night. Props too the DM who ran it, was a great event, rp was amazing, so this is at no way a fault of their own. But what I'm breaking this down too is.
Pros- Reward 400gp (Obsolete loot compared too regular dungeons, hardly no healing supplies returned) New friends icly.
Cons- Items spent- 1 wand of fireball 1 wand of summon creature IV, 4 invisibility potions, 2 blurs, 3 protection from evil potions, scroll of flame weapon, scroll of summon creature one and two, three purple healing stones, two svirnblen (Know I spelt that wrong) Healing devices, cold burst item, containment device (grenade thrown that summons animatron.) Also, lost 1 level in regards too this.
Now, I'm not trying too be blunt, but the con's had taken forever too acquire, where as in a 3 hours event? They were lost, with hardly no gain given. So hours of days work, aside from doing my RL day too day job, I have now lost far more progress than I had obtained. Not too mention if you have no healing supplies...you can't adventure, therefor you can't get more healing supplies, gold, etc too replace what was lost.
Pillars and Disks- Spent almost two hours doing it at level 5, gives a wine...
Time is sacred, and nowadays too devote time to a server that takes away progression, instead of offering something in turn. The server seems amazing, I love the idea behind it, and the effort put into it, but too lose days, upon days of effort in a matter of hours, seems a bit...absurd. (Perhaps this was just rotten luck, but it was a rather hard punch in the gut.)
There's all sorts of posts on this kind of thing. Here's one. (//%22http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?81701-For-New-Players&p=345286&viewfull=1#post345286%22)
The event you mentioned was very specific, -check your PM's for more detail, and not representative of typical DM quests. As to the rest of your post, check Blues Link.
My PC also lost weeks/months of hard earned supplies on the aforementioned raid, so I feel your pain...BUT: Look what was accomplished! All the PCs that left on the quest returned (a MIRACLE we did not all die TBH), the battle at the gate was pretty darn epic imo, WE ACCOMPLISHED OUR GOAL as we set out to do and REAPED THE REWARDS (although the reward doesn't fit in your PC's pack). There has been so much work and build up to the Raid event I am personally overjoyed to have seen it though AND survived. I think one must look at the bigger picture to truly appreciate what was accomplished last night as if we had failed (which looked VERY VERY likely at a certain point) ALL the work of MANY MANY players would have been LOST and the Dawnrise Brigade would be no more. The ENGINE that fuels the goals, quests, RP and plots would have fell by the wayside should we have met with the level of failure that seemed unavoidable and our story would have ended. I personally will sacrifice anything my PC has to be part of something so grand, rather than grind the same quests and collect the lootz. I hope the OP can see what the reward was for this event and look past the loss of supply. Epic goals require epic danger and epic sacrifice. Thanks to the DM(s?) involved in the event last night, I was pretty sure all was lost at some points. I personally had a blast! :)
Remember that supplies will fluctuate. You will have good days and bad days. A DM may not give much initially, but if you show good sportsmanship and stick with it you will be rewarded more and more for what you have done. This sounds like an awesome quest!
I think that everything that was needed to be said was said already. Even so, I would like to give emphasis to the fact that it was a metaplot quest, one that would be of great importance to the continuity and growth of a faction. Storywise, these characters were really bold and accepted the danger of losing all that they had conquered in the name of honor and respect.
I wish I could have taken part on the conclusion of this part of their story, and I must say that I enjoyed scheming around it and to have been partly responsible for it to take form.
Whatever the reward was, the continuity of their tale is too meaningful to be ignored here. Alas, not all adventures end up with a pile of treasures.
The best way to think of supplies is 'easy come easy go.' (//%22http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2gnwpGq9i1qkmqj8o1_500.jpg%22)
If every DM quest gave you the supply you'd need to do another DM quest, then you wouldn't have much motivation to do anything else but those DM quests. "Okay, now I need to put some money together and buy some more potions." should be your immediate thought not, "Oh man, I didn't get any supply or loot or anything." Sometimes you just don't. It sounds like you got some gold though, so use that to buy some potions and make a brewing friend!
It sucks when a quest bleeds you dry and you don't feel like you get much reward, but ultimately potions are there to be drank and charges are there to be used. If everyone was fully stocked all the time, how would there be any challenge at all to the game? How would potion brewers and wandcrafters make money?
The EFU experience has generally been that DM events are where you use up your supplies, and in between DM events are when you should save up said supplies, in my time here.
The static content is there for you to have fun and get what you need out of it whenever you can. Sometimes, yes, this does take a while, as due to my limited play time after some events I have spent literally a month or more re-obtaining what I spent.
If you have a solid group of questing buddies though it's far easier.
(Also don't do pillars and disks if its taking you longer than 20 minutes at best. It design is such that it's trying to encourage you not to bother after doing it more than a few times, and the rewards, while they can be nice, aren't worth spending two hours on it. Grab some friends with a sending and go do literally any other quest for a better time/reward ratio.)
Thanks all for the insight, I did receive some gold yes. Though why would a potion brewer buy potions? See this is where it get's annoying. You have a character that's already established as a potion brewer too clients, but now what do you say? "Sorry man, got a blow upside the head, and forgot how brew potions?" I don't know, I'm just going too bite my lip I'll pop in once and awhile and see what else I can do on the server. Over all though, I'm more of a...if I spend my last four hours after work, on a game, I want too keep my last four hours worth of progress type of person. I may just have the wrong mindset for this server is all. :) Either way, I appreciate all the time you guys had taken too respond too this, and will hopefully bump into characters of yours icly, or what not.
This honestly isn't that bad, yeah your in the red a bit, but that is a daily occurance. I don't know how many times I have been spiced or on an event and used every single thing I have only to get nothing at all, sometimes not as much a single xp point. That underscores the best part about this server is that it is -hard-. You have to be a bad mofo to play EFU, and be able to take lemons and that into about 30 csw and 10 blur and some other stuff and go beat whatever is thrown at you.
When I was younger I skipped school to stay home and play EFU. It happened a bunch of times that I'd end up PVP killed or NPC murdered and I'd always say: ugh, should have gone to school today.
Time is precious and it blows when it feels like it's been lost. We've all been here. Let me say that again: we have all been there, and frequently experience these draw backs. After a while, it will definitely grow more comfortable on you and you'll learn that it is a necessary inevitability.
Ps. The higher level you become, the worse it gets! So you're in for a treat! The best advice anyone can give you is to just keep kicking your way forward and to try to take the bad with the awesome. It pays off.
This sounds like an issue of perspective more than anything. I would argue that you're vastly undervaluing the importance of having a few new friends in character. Frankly? EFU is not for everyone. If your concerns lay strictly in the acquisition of loot, experience, and the 'progression' of your character's strength in terms of his or her supplies, then it's quite possible that you just don't have the right mindset. This is an old, outdated game. To make up for its mechanical faults, we (as a community) have created a server that boasts an incredible, dynamic roleplaying experience accentuated by a brutal setting that is merciless more often than it isn't. Instead of wanting to grind out quests for the sake of 'progression', your concerns should lay with developing your character and his or her effect on the server. Instead of wanting to hoard your supplies and doing stuff that only benefits the amount of potions and consumables you have, you should find opportunities to use those supplies to gain a leg up in whatever concerns your character -- politics, war, intrigue, subterfuge, world domination, etc.
This isn't World of Warcraft and it's not meant to emulate the 'grind grind grind to the max and never lose my progress' template of that game. Most of us are here because we enjoy playing a character, exploring their story, and interacting with the world.
Truly, I don't want to discourage new players from playing EFU -- it's an incredible experience even on the worst days -- but it's entirely possible that your mindset might not be compatible with the server, or you might be looking for something that's antithetical to its content. I'd maybe take a second to reevaluate what you want from your character and the server as a whole, and whether that's worth your time after work.
Also, don't do Pillars and Disks more than one or two times. You should never, ever spend two hours on that quest. <.<;
As for the whole "I'm a potion brewer, but I can't brew those potions!" you can come up with a number of solutions. "The last weeks' battles have left me drained, tired, and unable to conjure the divine power that I've been blessed with by an almighty being right now." Or, "I have to collect more reagents; I've exhausted my stores."
^ This, along with some of the pcs who are now indebted to you due to the aid you've rendered them >_>.
I can't blame you for irritation though. Time is important, and having to stare at the fugue for a half hour without any indication of what's going on makes dying even worse than it might normally be. I've been in the same situation before, sitting in the fugue for about a half hour without so much as a tell to let me know what's going on.
Losing a character you've been playing for hours a day for a month straight because of a lack of consideration is a pain, hopefully it doesn't turn you off from the server, though. Takes all of us to make this place what it is, so don't downplay your own contributions or assets :p
Quote from: Pandip;430776"I have to collect more reagents; I've exhausted my stores."
And you can then go questing with people in order to get those 'reagents' (which are actually just EXP.) and emote gathering stuff while you slay baddies. That's what I did with my cleric, anyway!
In my (comparatively short) time on EfU, I've found that a good philosophy is that one gets levels and supplies to participate in plots and spice quests, and less so the other way around.
For the specific, I can't blame anyone for being unhappy with spending an hour in the boring ol' fugue, and I won't pretend to say it's not all that big of a deal. But, it happens to all of us occasionally.
Quote from: Faux News;430778And you can then go questing with people in order to get those 'reagents' (which are actually just EXP.) and emote gathering stuff while you slay baddies. That's what I did with my cleric, anyway!
I tend to do this when I play as wizards, just to highlight how queer and disgusting their craft really is despite how innocuous and normal they may seem. I collect organs and teeth and other things from the corpses of enemies, or catch bugs in jars. It's good fun.
Quote from: Apocryphal Misconceptions;430775When I was younger I skipped school to stay home and play EFU. It happened a bunch of times that I'd end up PVP killed or NPC murdered and I'd always say: ugh, should have gone to school today.
Time is precious and it blows when it feels like it's been lost. We've all been here. Let me say that again: we have all been there, and frequently experience these draw backs. After a while, it will definitely grow more comfortable on you and you'll learn that it is a necessary inevitability.
Ps. The higher level you become, the worse it gets! So you're in for a treat! The best advice anyone can give you is to just keep kicking your way forward and to try to take the bad with the awesome. It pays off.
High school was a joke. I learned way more in IRC and Wikepedia than I did after 4 years of wasted tax payer funding. There is a reason why American history classes do little to inform students of things like Parliamentary systems. There also is a reason military recruiters are permitted on most campuses to convince you into enlisting and feeding a military industrial complex. History classes also fail to point out how we differentiate from most of the western world. The fact many people say and believe a man like Obama is a communist when he would be considered far right in most of the western world is a testament to a failed educational system. Supposed Sexual Education classes will even push and preach to young adults an unhealthy absurd and unnatural lifestyle known as abstinence. No need to apologize for skipping school when in all likelihood it was a joke.
Anyway political rant aside I must say that it depends on the quest and you are free to fight like a coward and even during a DM event/quest. If you are a warrior who just risked life, limb and tons of supplies and you saw a bunch of archers and useless wizards invis buffing start demanding they fork over gold or loot. Beat people up who invisibly looted while you fought! Your problems all have IG solutions. Some DM events will be very rewarding some will just cost a ton of supplies.
There still might be something to consider here. It makes me wonder if we should consider to add to emphasize other ways to show "progress" in the game world. Since we can pretty much all readily agree that loot and levels (while empowering) aren't the purpose of the server. It does begs the question, what is? The more obvious answer to that is the stories that are told between characters; yet there are many times when those stories do not complete and they certainly do not always fulfill the person sitting on the other side of the computer.
That doesn't mean efu is not for these types of players.
When we as a community ask that our players devote 10-30 hours each week to our story, we should also as a community acknowledge those efforts. Stories here tend to be very ethereal, depending on the likelihood of the right DM or the right character coming along to make a real impact on our fellow players. If a player is asked to sacrifice for, or put that sort of effort into a faction, they should feel good when it is over. The fact that he is making this post at all, is an indication that this is lacking, at least for him. That matters to me. Maybe we should not be so quick to decide what has worked in the past, is the best way forward.
It might be.
These sort of events should leave a "mark" upon the server. That could be as simple as a stone with the victors names transcribed on it, a statue in a faction holding, the addition of an important npc, or a real change in the dynamic of things within the underdark. Whatever the case may be, the players sitting around that conflict should know, at least Out Of Charater, what the lasting consequences of winning and losing are. That gives a sense of a purpose to even the most expensive victories, but, this has to be something that everyone walks into with a complete understanding of. After-all, the time in between all those big stories is filled with the a concept of questing, which is very explicitly, trying to reward your time spent in loot and experience. Because we place value on this, we cannot simply say to a player that loot and experience doesn't matter. It clearly does. The correct answer is, is that these types of events should provide something more important to that player then questing and experience ever did.
The number of monsters in efu is unlimited, but the number of monsters within the "realistic" scope of the underdark is extremely limited, on the brick of extinction type of limited. Since defeating monsters doesn't necessarily count against the health of that population of monsters, clearing quests doesn't clear them, and clearing @areas doesn't prevent another @area similar to be added at the whimsy of a DM laster... There is a legitimate concern that even a "meta" event, will not feel as those the sacrifice meant anything at all. (and that impression is weighted correspondingly to the personal investment in whatever was being fought for) Events with Dms are important because they're not scripted to be repeatable, they are unique, they can effect the world in a way that doesn't reset like kobold mines.
In the past, I've seen events go both ways (sometimes at the same time depending on the perspective of those involved). However, one of the most universally potent rewards have come through the telling of the servers story, the Lore, the Mysteries, the secrets behind NPCs, etc. Who really did build that statue, what does it mean, what are the implications of this knowledge. What happened here? Why is it relevant? What could it suggest? And... perhaps more importantly, What has been revealed to the player at the cost to the character? We should as a community always try to reward other player's efforts, even if that reward does not benefit the character at all. The scale of this knowledge isn't as important, but the feeling of discovery is essential. These concepts are just as applicable between player told stories as DM stories, but the larger the group, the harder it is to make it as personally important. That's the value of server lore and mystery.
This harkens back to the idea of a "Good Death". Knowing when to pull the plug on your character so that it gives you a sense of fulfillment. This is often personal, but both DMs and other Players can make or break those moments. Maybe it is something we should all try to keep in mind.
I agree with Ebok. It gives us a warmth sensation to look around and know that we somehow have contributed to leave a mark here. And yes, a more concrete mark, one that shapes not only the tale but also the more palpable landscape of EFU's virtual world. I hope these dwarves start carving the Spire with the tales and images of their success, to remind future enemies and allies of their might and glory, as we already see about other groups in several parts of the server.
Quote from: Pandip;430776This sounds like an issue of perspective more than anything. I would argue that you're vastly undervaluing the importance of having a few new friends in character. Frankly? EFU is not for everyone. If your concerns lay strictly in the acquisition of loot, experience, and the 'progression' of your character's strength in terms of his or her supplies, then it's quite possible that you just don't have the right mindset. This is an old, outdated game. To make up for its mechanical faults, we (as a community) have created a server that boasts an incredible, dynamic roleplaying experience accentuated by a brutal setting that is merciless more often than it isn't. Instead of wanting to grind out quests for the sake of 'progression', your concerns should lay with developing your character and his or her effect on the server. Instead of wanting to hoard your supplies and doing stuff that only benefits the amount of potions and consumables you have, you should find opportunities to use those supplies to gain a leg up in whatever concerns your character -- politics, war, intrigue, subterfuge, world domination, etc.
This isn't World of Warcraft and it's not meant to emulate the 'grind grind grind to the max and never lose my progress' template of that game. Most of us are here because we enjoy playing a character, exploring their story, and interacting with the world.
In a post apocalyptic setting, you tend too broaden your character experience, friends, stories through the dangers of going through the Underdark and it's various challenges. It's how the comrade is built etc. What you say is completely contradicting, as 90% of the population is out of Sanctuary doing one task or another with watchers etc.
Fact is, WoW, Guildwars, Aion, any other MMO is based off table top, and this is the closest step too it, with animations. This whole MMO mentality vs NWN mentality is old, they're the same damn thing, except one is more of an autopilot. Each has the same goals, same end game. You are the bad guy, or you are the good guy, trying too trump some greater evil, or the other. To do such you get parties of friends you make through trials of blood and glory or what not. It was brought too my attention this event was too upgrade a hold, I wasn't aware of such, and thought it was simply a DM event.
Politics, war, intrigue, subterfuge, world domination, etc all take some base amount of experience power, materials, supplies. No bum walked off the street in rags, became king tyrant of this and that, or the best known scoundrel without acquiring the means to gain such a reputation. I just find the above state a rather mindless answer that is always given when it comes too questions of these sort.
As for Pillars and Disks, I actually found out the reasoning behind such, and it was my own doing. Seems I was double stepping the progress, which was making me take forever.
The potion brewer idea sounds great, thank you for the legitimate ic reasons that I'll definitely put too good use. Sorry for the lack of replies, been busy with work the last few days. I'll continue too pop on now that things have been explained further (Not that I have stopped logging in, this was just worded terribly.)
I had actually missed the entire second page of this post lol, that sounds terrible too say, as I had not expected it too get so many posts. I have enjoyed reading each post, and how they have helped in their own way. I agree with plenty of what was said, and have learned some as well. I'll do my best too try not too place progress with materialistic things, or levels, other than rp. I'm all for the "A good death" story, as I've had multiple characters spread throughout accounts on various servers dating as far back as Pheonix Rising.
As said this is an old game, yes the world is dynamic and offers the chance of experiencing something exciting, and rping with great people. It is an old game, and therefor it comes down too that there is a lack of diversity, everything is categorized, and seems too be the same. It just switches names, and the characters that do it. So too devote the little time that is available too some to such an old game, is a sign on it's own that they obviously wish too play it, and know the benefits of it. I love events, had a great time on a spice event with Globbergut? Drink some green sludge, went through an experience, was great. Enjoyed it.
Most of the first post was before I had known the intentions of the event, and even though that has been clarified, I've still gained more from the post, by the replies that have been given. Thank you all for your time too reply too this, and I hope too continue too read some great information and perspectives left here.
Having a very brief read of this I've just realised that lately I tend not to reward parties with any supplies or gold whatsoever when I provide them with challenges. I've realised it's because we're at the stage of this chapter's life where I look at people's inventories and feel like they already have way more supplies than they need (and they often scrimp on using them). Drink down some of your 50 CSW and stacks of haste pots and then we'll talk about giving you some more supplies.
(I'll give supplies to people that need them though, obviously)
Quote from: Ladocicea;431117Having a very brief read of this I've just realised that lately I tend not to reward parties with any supplies or gold whatsoever when I provide them with challenges. I've realised it's because we're at the stage of this chapter's life where I look at people's inventories and feel like they already have way more supplies than they need (and they often scrimp on using them). Drink down some of your 50 CSW and stacks of haste pots and then we'll talk about giving you some more supplies.
CSW? Actually the character is rather new, and didn't have much too any supplies at all. I've managed too gather a few more purple gems during that time frame, and due too the focusing in conjuration as a wizard, no haste potions or transmutation potions at all can be brewed. Perhaps you're running events for regulars, or old timer characters/players?
In my time on EFU complete drains have happened countless times, and countless times the opposite as well. It can be frustrating to die, even more so to lose consumables. But that is what they are. Consumable. The underdark is dangerous as hell, and if you aren't strong enough for the quest you chose (scripted or DM) without, you need to use your resources to survive. Or get a bow and stand back.
Not every DM quest is your friend, and not every one will reward you. But what will reward you is taking the beatings in stride, believe that the eyes in the sky are watching you, and if you can turn it into something rewarding for your character that is even better. Good things can come your way when you least expect it.
The specific event had very tangible results and dangers for a large player run faction, I don't think I need to go into the details of how aiding them with this task would put you in a place to ally and perhaps join a fun and bustling faction with the ability to further reap the rewards of the specific event. At the very least you helped them further their plot, so you can ask them to help you further yours. That's really what the game is about to me, the intertwining plots of players under the umbrella of the greater DM metaplots. All that being said, if you're only going along because you see an NPC being possessed, you might be doing it for the wrong reason.
My opinion.
I have had my share of events and my share of immature quitting of PCs because of such events. The thing I learned is that supplies comes and goes, but story. The story keeps going. You go on a quest and die? Cool you get to meet new low level PCs. One of my favorite memories of EFU:R was watching Zsigmond go from around 7-9 to level 3 for releveling his PRC, and meeting countless players. He was able to reach out to the low level questing PCs and got them into his faction for a revival. It was very fun to watch :).
The reason why we say it is not like WOW, or we don't want it to be that way, is that in the end you are pushing a plotline. Your actions with countless others will spur something amazing that you will remember! The failures, the successes, they will stay wih you :).
I have seem you every now and then and I say keep at it. Welcome to EFU again and yes it is hard. But the rewards are worth it.
~Kin
Honestly. Someo people will know. I have always died in many DM defend events etc but I just get up and keep trying even when the event is going on. I have dropped from 7 to 4 plenty of times but I still keep going and play it off as character wounds etc. Honestly I was low on supplies when the situation arose but I still kept going. You make great allies this way and become more renowned for perserving to the end.
And tbh what some people said here is true. Use your supplies to help you survive. DM events are fairly brutal in scope and you should drink everything you got if need be.
Honestly I have felt some results of some DM things can be a bit unrewarding but very rarely has it happened. As a DM player at my tabletop I understand though, it is their call and you can't expect everything you do to be showered in loot and gold.
Honestly the most fun I had was establishing a name for myself iG more than rewards.
There is a difference between absence of a reward, and absence of a physical reward.
Physical reward = Potions, Trinkets, Loot, and otherwise
Non-Physical yet measurable reward = Plot hooks, Exp, and renown.
My personal belief on the matter is if a dm thinks a party is overly supplied they should generously award exp along with other non-physical rewards in return for the supply strip spice or otherwise.
Alongside this if a party is hurting for supplies and they are aided with some, they should be given a reduced exp reward as they got something physical to compensate but still get a non-physical component to their reward.
Also, in my personal belief, I find that deciding if someone has too much or too little is a bit eschewed due to personal bias that we all have towards each other.
In the end, I find in EFU it all balances out in the end. Stick with your pcs, roll with the punches. You will endure and make a name for yourself and not be some faceless corpses on the road to be a hero or villain.
I think the concern is a good one. Here's an alternate way to think about it, though:
Without a deep pocket of supplies, a mission can either be a success (everyone lives, objectives accomplished) or a failure (deaths, lack of objective success, etc.). This line can be razor-thin in a lot of encounters.
The more supplies you have to draw on, though, the more you are able to move that needle toward success, but at great cost. In a lot of cases, players will adopt strategies that are entirely suboptimal and still come out on top, specifically because they used cartloads of supplies to do it.
If you find yourself blowing through an extreme amount of consumable material, you might try adjusting your strategy to a more cautious or efficient approach. Simple things like packing an Imp Invis instead of a Stoneskin or bringing medicine bags or forcing the risk-free buff mage to cough up some of his healing cache can all add up to turn an expensive event into a rather affordable one.
I rather like that players find themselves in situations where their coveted supplies can be burnt up as a "get out of jail free" card. It forces them to focus on their long-term presence vs. the immediacy of succeeding in the short-term, and do a quick cost-benefit analysis. If you are burning all of your supplies on every event (not just the really large ones), you might need an adjustment in strategy.
Finally, if you really, really hate having to farm up more supplies at all between events (which is a very valid point of view, I'll add!), then you might consider playing a concept that is either less reliant on being in active combat situations, or at least participates in those active combat situations in a more renewable way. The poorest level 8 bard in the world without a trinket to his name is always welcome in a party.
Honestly, a wizard can earn his keep with his prepared spells alone. Healing and other various consumables beyond that are just gravy.