I've been thinking about this, lately.
Most ridiculously powerful subraces on EFU are Very monstrous and thus supposed to be very scary. However, when you start off as a level 2 who can't gain any notable XP from any of the beginner quests (Most of which you probably can't do, because you're a monster, and people don't hire monsters to do deliveries very often!)
The fact that it's so difficult to get a foothold with some of the more monstrous/hated races like Drow, makes it nearly impossible to have these races feared when It's a PC, because Unless the player powerquests like nothing else (After first finding a tolerant posse), chances are they will still only be level 4-5, maybe 6. Whereas the average PC is level 7-8. Some races have stat adjustments to compensate, but overall most non subrace PCs are going to be higher level, have more supplies and such because of it.
My suggestion is simple ; Don't apply LA until level 5. Or make it scaled. So A LA 3 Subrace starts out with LA 1 at level 1, Moves up to LA 2 at 4 or 5, and LA 3 at 6 or 7.
This will help 'scary' races, be more 'scary' because they are not perpetually low levels compared to the rest of the playerbase.
(Or just remove the LA, since it's kind of dodgy anyways)
II'd be for it...unless I find something wrong here.
It's Cruzel. You're bound to find something wrong with the post if you look hard enough.
In all seriousness though, I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented. It'd give the harried players of application-only subraces a half-decent chance at surviving and possibly even thriving in the server.
I am in support of removing ECL altogether.
I'm agreeing with this.
Agreed - They are application only on a low population server. Remove ECL all together, or lower them to +1. ECL is taken from Pen and Paper rules which honestly, don't come near nwn and shouldn't. Just get rid of it, please.
I think removing it altogether would be fine, but should we not worry about these sub race PCs becoming too powerful? Some of the races are truly powerful and if they level up as quickly as the standard PCs it might be a problem. But if these races are kept in low numbers on the server or be treated as they should be in game, then its probably a different story.
You guys are going to give Snoteye a Stroke.
We are discussing LEVEL ADJUSTMENT here, (LA) Which is not ECL. (Snoteye will crush you)
To address Wern's point - Anything with HIGH ecl is a MONSTER and should be crushed by team good/team average adventurer and some of team evil as well.
The fact that they should be HUNTED and mistrusted should make it 1) hard for them to quest in the first place, and 2)Stay alive being the MONSTER that you are.
Seriously, consider the average lifespan of very, very monstrous PCs who don't have a large shield to hide behind.
The monsters do not need such a hindrance to put them so far behind the average player when they are already disadvantaged as it is by simply being what they are. Not so early on, Anyways. I can see LA being put into place from stopping them from getting to L8/L9 so easily, but when they can barely reach 4 or 5, that is a problem and really no fun, tbh.
LA will not go away without a substitution. If you apply (and are approved) for a sub race with LA, you are going to have a more difficult time leveling up than normal races. That's the whole idea. If you don't like it, don't apply. The purpose of LA sub races was never to make them more powerful than regular races.
They should be mistrusted and hunted, but so far I find that they are having an easy time on the server. It seemed different on EFU, but as of now I think monster PCs lasts quite long.
Addendum: I might have been willing to consider it if monstrous PCs were casually targeted. AFAIK, they are not.
Races such as Werecreatures, that can work relatively well amongst people but turn insane, would be completely overpowered by removal of LA. Not for.
As an aside note, though, Gobsquat is nothing like Lower, which makes me sad. A PC cannot survive in Gobsquat alone, level up without ever entering the Ziggurat, or function without having to visit society. LA races like Drow and Ogres who were obvious threats to the city used to be able to level up relatively safely there, with only PCs as threats rather than full Watch battalions.
Most of the monstrous PCs I have seen so far have not been targetting for visible reasons. Senhagad was with Olid, someone most people didn't want to mess with. Ixtiotl is with the stygians.
Almost every other monster PC I can think of is/has been targetted quickly, and not lived long.
To Reiterate; The main focus of this suggestion is not to make it ridiculously easy for monsters to level - I am trying to draw focus on the fact it is much harder for monsters to level anyways (Especially now, when team GOOD is so prominent) because players at the very least will say GTFO, MONSTER!! If they won't outright attack.
When they do get to quest, they earn little to no XP, making it ridiculously hard for them to get 'scary' like a monster should be, as opposed to simply being a member of this 'scary' race who happens to be able to be taken down by any passing L5 because their HP is so low.
The Original suggestion was to have LA be scaled, so a Monster can get to L5 without the previous difficult,y because l5 is not too high, and allows for them to start to be 'scary' like they should be, not some Low level, low HP rat who can easily be crushed.
I would be for making really good app monstrous PCs to start at their level adjustment, or higher considering the danger/alienation said race faces.
As it stands, people don't attack out of our server-cultivated OOC respect for each other. Perhaps adding this and encouraging normal behavior could balance it self out.
I mean, a truly immediate boost in lvl will disallow building up of supplies and such, and I seriously doubt anyone would complain as long as players aren't stupid, which the app already takes care of.
Occasionally, the Pup makes a decent argument.
This is one such time.
Anybody for this suggestion is missing the point that a character's stats should not form the basis of your (character's) first impression of it.
EfUA doesn't encourage becoming scary by sheer levelling, and that should include monster pcs as well, imo. Who's scared of a lone lizard man or lone sahaguin anyway? You're not app'ing for an umberhulk, and i can't see the app only races being more scary than anyone else when alone.
Besides, if i'm not mistaken, monster pcs are a 'reward' or accepted when their presence will bring something cool on the server. Levelling with casual pcs in terms of lvls is not part of the deal.
@Pup's: monster pcs just like any pcs will die and lose lvls and equip themsleves just as well as anyone, or if they are scary will become gang leaders and bully better equipement.
My 2c.
I suggest doing away with ECL altogether, with attendant increase in the strictness of subrace application consideration.
This would see less monster PCs, better monster PCs and scarier monster PCs.
ECL = Effectice Character Level
CL = Character Level = All Levels in every class summed up
most races have an ECL of +0 which means:
Character Level = Effectice Character Level.
Level adjustment, adds to your CL and gives an ECL.
Level Adjustment is where the real nerf comes in, so in effect, a level 2 drow get's XP as if they were level 4...even though they are not. This should be done away with, and put stronger restrictions on the applications. None of these classes are going to make or break the world we live in, even -if- they are mechanically stronger. Players should have the option, within our OOC pvp rules, to slay certain creatures, as well as NPCs controlled by DMs. In effect, a poorly played character of these classes will never amount to anything special, while a character obviously deserving of reward due to good RP can advance.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
To not have Snoteye explode, I'll correct VP:
Most races do not have an ECL of +0, but an LA (Level Adjustment) of +0.
ECL = CL + LA.
I hate whoever got this wrong in the first place for tainting the Internet so.
So, what exactly -is- the difference between level adjustment and ECL?
Quote from: Caddies;115134I suggest doing away with ECL altogether, with attendant increase in the strictness of subrace application consideration.
This would see less monster PCs, better monster PCs and scarier monster PCs.
For what it's worth, I agree with Caddies.
Caddies is right. We've too many subraces running around anyway.
I agree with Caddies.
I just can't help but remember the general reaction of many in the playerbase in the past when we had monstrous PCs get to a high level.
If you don't recall, it was something along the lines of:
QuoteWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Which is why MY suggestion was scaled ECL.
This way you still don't have super high level monsters, but they aren't perpetually low level, easily swattable things.
Perhaps a different way of handling the penalty is in order, one that still has the effectiveness of a LA while not being crippling. like 10 or 15% xp penalty per lvl adjustment. so you wold get 80 xp on a quest that gives others 100 with a LA of 2.
This way you still get xp, no matter what. And yet it takes a longer time then for normal races.
As someone who is playing a LN Cleric of Kelemvor, I would enjoy seeing the PC monster team become more prominent in DM run events and day to day life.
Go team middle ground
A different way of handling it is pretty much what Cruzel is suggesting, and that, I like!
Quote from: Snoteye;115073Anybody for this suggestion is missing the point that a character's stats should not form the basis of your (character's) first impression of it.
When you see some poor drow PC crumple into a silver-haired heap after someone sneezes, it's not a first impression anymore.
I heartily support this suggestion.
I for one say, and I am not demanding this now, that eventually a neutral, monster race port be created by the devs so evil and neutral non-monsters can hire them out for dirty work, and also give monsterous races a place to level up (At their own very slow pace). A place with a evilish and monsterish feel! And we could have a Kobolds and goblins back there trying to kill each other again!
Then when the server causes a mass riot over it, we can simply do the time warp!
You mean Gobsquat?
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Meh, fuck the playerbase. If people whinge ban them TBH.
No ECL!
That's a particularly cavalier attitude, Big Mitch.
I could go either way, really. The addition of ECL doesn't bother me, nor would I be particularly phased by its removal - As long as people understood that successful applications would probably become less likely.
Fort Mur MK Two?
Caddies has a vested interest; in the future, he plans to crush all with a well-placed Orog application/concept. Better times will come. BBN.
I, on the other hand, have no vested interest at all. My interest is very selfish and clear - I currently play a PC that has been level 6 for a few months. I'm terrible at leveling usually, now that my playtimes are sketchier than ever, this is even harder. It's somewhat disconcerting to see 1-week-old characters who outstrip me mechanically and in terms of supplies/consumables. Add to that the fact that I'm playing a 'monstrous' subrace with a -2 to CHA, and I've seen 1-minute-old characters with more influence than I've had on this current PC during his entire lifetime.
This is the perspective of someone currently playing an ECL race. I have no other reason to support Caddies' suggesting, other than the fact that it's hard being a monster when everyone can level faster than you. Then again, everyone can level faster than me when I don't have ECL, so chalk this one down to whining, people!
i was only a monster once but oh man did i hate ECL pretty hard. i think after a week or so of doing every quest i could every night after work i was nearly level 3 and a half
When I look at the suggestions, I like the sounds of it. Until I think back to those occasions when I've fought with things with Level Adj. 2 or 3. They are very very very scary. Cruzel's idea holds merit in my eyes, but the scripting needed makes me wonder. I do believe we need some Level Adjustments, as those who often get these classes are incredibly skilled at leveling anyway.
As for my opinion on the argument, I believe all LA's should be dropped by one. As the races with ECL +1 dont rate the penalty, and the races that are ECL +2 are a bit too close to being crippled. In this light, the ECL +3's can play, without turning into demi gods.
Please dismiss the notion that were creatures are scary against anything but easy quest monsters. Please get rid of or lower lycan ECL.
No, damnit... I mean Monster Tortuga with Jack-sparrow in a Kobold body! Can't you get anything right?! Now, I want to make a Palemaster/RDD/Bard and make all your heads explode, before having it banished to the pit of 'gtfo' on the subplane of 'stfu'.
You take a jump to the left, and a step to the riiiiight... put your hands on your hips, and tuck you knees in tiiiiight! But its the pelvic thrust, that really drives you insa-a-a-ane.... lets do the time warp agaaaaaain! Lets do the time warp agaaaaaain!
I like how the player base thinks here. This would be amazing. :D
Werecreatures and High ECL monsters get more DM attention for being such monsters as it stands. Chances of DM loot is also higher.
In an even fight, a werecreature can slaughter anyone. *(maybe not werecats, those don't even deserve ECL three -.-)
I understand that these monsters are supposed to be scary mother fuckers. Ymphian werewolves scare the shit out of me, and I bet one of those buggers can slaughter any level 8 werecreature a player designed.
I would LOVE to see Werecreatures terrifying the player base as they are supposed to.
Remove the ECL
To clarify, I'm actually okay with any of the above and I do agree that the ECLs are too much as they stand. Getting rid of them can work, but if you dont want to do this, then I still propose lowering them by at least one. (some of them need lowered more)
Subraces are definitely at a disadvantage, at least at first. It's difficult to reach that point of glory, and harder to survive altogether. However, once a subrace reaches about levels five to six, their awesome stats begin to really pay off. If a subrace character ever reaches 7+, they're a significant force to be reckoned with.
So, there's a cost associated with the extra benefits. I don't see it entirely as a bad thing, because if we got rid of ECL altogether, it would take away many elements of the challenge of being a subrace character.
Quote from: Sternhund;115312Subraces are definitely at a disadvantage, at least at first. It's difficult to reach that point of glory, and harder to survive altogether. However, once a subrace reaches about levels five to six, their awesome stats begin to really pay off. If a subrace character ever reaches 7+, they're a significant force to be reckoned with.
So, there's a cost associated with the extra benefits. I don't see it entirely as a bad thing, because if we got rid of ECL altogether, it would take away many elements of the challenge of being a subrace character.
Wow, if Cruzel doesn't explode after this then I don't know what will get him. His suggestion was a
scaled LA system with perhaps +1 at really low levels, and increasing as the character reaches higher levels.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;115310Werecreatures and High ECL monsters get more DM attention for being such monsters as it stands. Chances of DM loot is also higher.
And that is why I (and everyone else, imo) play ECL subraces.
Let me put things into perspective a bit. Tieflings are hated, evil backstabbing monsters no one should suffer, let alone trust. Werecreatures are shapeshifters, and as such are capable of concealing their nature to a degree, but do you really want the price of being able to use your wereform every once in a while to be a 3 level difference to pretty much anyone else? Genasi are weird and otherwordly, two of the four types of Genasi get negative CHA, which is pretty crippling when you consider that not only you will have a harder time leveling, you will also have a harder time becoming influential and feared.
Deep Imaskari (to use but one example - various other non-app subraces are also available, with sizable bonuses) on the other hand are just as suited to the Wizard class as a Tiefling, in terms of ability modifiers. Sure, they'll naturally have 2 less AC, but I'm sure anyone would rather have 10 instead of 12 base AC and pack a couple of
hasted ice storms instead. Not to mention they're not devil-blooded monstrosities, so they should have an easier time of making friends/gaining allies/influence. If we're discussing mechanics, ECL is pretty much outmatched across the board, since not only do most of these subraces come with significant RP disadvantages, they're also particularly hard to level up without severe quest grinding.
To sum my position up: Characters currently with ECL already go through a process of screening by the DMs. Tighten this up if necessary, but do away with/relax ECL. The problem with being a werewolf is that you are a werewolf. People naturally want to destroy you for being what you are. The problem with being an Aasimar Paladin is that you're already singled out by pretty much every up-and-coming villain as a possible threat, so you've made enemies from the moment someone examined your character and spotted 'eldritch silvery hair' in your description. The problem with being a Tiefling, or Genasi, is that you get penalties to stats that
contrary to what some may think do make every difference between success and failure, survival or defeat, such as WIS and CHA.
The ECL subraces are already hard enough to play with the drawbacks that they inherently carry. ECL is just adding to this unnecessarily, in my opinion. It would be best to do away with, or lower ECL.
A final thought:This relates to Howland's point. In the past, there have been complaints about the unfairness of certain monster characters making it to higher levels and generally wreaking havoc. But if we look at the heart of the problem, we'll realize that these same characters probably weren't dealt with closer to the start of their villainous careers because people tend to pussyfoot around level 3-5 characters when they're playing a level 8 bulldozer. And they should. So that's that - people are somewhat forced to mollycoddle, in my opinion, ECL characters to a certain degree (YES CORE, YOU FOR EXAMPLE), until suddenly they break a level barrier (5 for some classes, 6 for others, 7 for others yet) and next thing you know, they are, as Sternhund said, a 'force to be reckoned with'.
Do away with ECL, or lower it, and, added to the fact that the player list is gone, I believe people will begin treating subrace characters (especially the more monstrous ones) they way they deserve to be treated. I do not believe it will become 'easier' to play these characters in these circumstances. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Still not exploding, Sorry.
But as Oskar says, My suggestion was a scaled LA system (This should be VERY easy to adjust and add scriptwise, for those not in the know) So that Monster PCs can have no LA at levesl 2-4, With either all/part of their LA being applied at level 5 and onwards, so that they can get to mid-level without a ridiculous struggle of rampant powerquesting. (Which btw, only serves to give them a VERY unfair advantage of wealth and supplies these quests are generally overflowing with. (My own PC, Ayana Cain was doomed to this endless cycle of low level quests, and became ridiculously overlooted/rich because of it.)
The point of this small amount of Leeway, is that once they get to level 5 where their HP and other such things are more respectable, leveling up becomes harder. So level 7+ monster PCs will still be VERY rare, hard to get, and still ridiculously strong.
Because let's face it - Monsters may be allowed to wander the Ziggurat, but There is only so many quests they can solo, and especially with the predominant team GOOD atm, I can't see very many people CHOOSING to quest with a monstrous PC.
(Also, My monster PC doesn't seem to be getting DM quests. I've tagged along ONE, with someone else as the person the DM was going for. Other than that, ZIP, NOTHING, NADA. THEORY DISPROVED, THOMAS. Subrace PC's don't score DM quests simply for being what they are. A subrace PC may be watched more for being a monster/needing PVP, but otherwise I think it's up to the PC to EARN the time of being watched/scoring DM quests (Or to spam the DMs with requests)).
I believe we had an internal discussion about this very same issue shortly before we rolled out EFU:A, and generally concluded that the system needed to make some changes - not that it isn't fun to watch people write impassioned arguments one way or another!
I believe we decided on some kind of percentage-reduced XP variable system for subraces, but maybe just removing it for the lower level for monsters would work better.
You people really do not want 0 ECL high powered monsters on the server. You just don't know it yet. Keeping this post here as a placeholder for when/if this pipedream ever happens to be able to say "I told you so!"
If the Percentage thing is implemented now, It's working terribly. My PC was getting like 12 XP per delivery as opposed to the normal 200.
I get like 47 xp, MAYBE on a harpy run, and that is including end quest XP. Orcs nets me about 1-300, depending on how many people are on the group.
I really don't have a problem with this, as I am fine with logging in, smashing a quest or four, then RPing until a reset and then religiously smashing them again. My PC is not really a low level anymore, and I'm not complaining on my own behalf.
It's the lower level monster PCs that have it harsh. I've got a posse, people to quest with and stuff, and I've got the levels to keep myself alive for the most part. But for other PCs for even higher ECL than mine, the XP loss is way to harsh tbh. There should definately be to penalty at all before level 5.
Bring back THAC0, IMO
No, percentage reduction XP system is not implemented.
We have a desired feature list a mile long.
Is there any update on this? As much as I am loving playing my character, this ECL is biting real deep. It's livable, playable, and such, but I can't get over 5, and my bonus' aren't that great! :p
No update as such.
It's being discussed again internally, and the over-worked scripters have that aforementioned large list to work through.
ECL can be pretty brutal, but if you go on quests intended for characters of your level + adjustment, you still get quite a bit of experience, and as you are still at the lower levels, it covers a greater portion of your range to next level than it would if you were at the intended max level.
I would say let other features take priority over this system, but if more people start getting approved for high ECL subraces, bump this up in priority. Most of the current level adjusted PCs have already slogged through the early levels to the point where dropping on the heavier penalties has been suggested anyway.
This will be added with next reset. Report anything weird!