It doesn't feel good to be excluded by a mechanical limit from so much content at level 8. I have been playing a few days and while there is no shortage of non-quest content, much of it is at the mercy of finding the right seams. I think it would be good for group cohesion if many of the 3-7 quests in 99-95 would accept level 8 PCs, though I also admit I fear this might make them too easy.
In particular, Lizardmen seems like a tough quest, and it not being max 8 is a bit surprising.
I think this applies in particular to ring 95 quests, rather than elsewhere. If only because you -need- to run them to get the [spoilers] to [spoilers]!
I firmly disagree let people that are level 8 basque in their achievement and go after much stronger/rewarding objectives.
If you want to run 3-7 quests you should die down from 8.
Quote from: Sem on February 10, 2019, 12:43:27 AM
If you want to run 3-7 quests you should die down from 8.
Yes do this.
There would be even less content for people to do at level 8 if all the v4 quests were set back to their original level caps, as those quests were not designed to be 10 cap. That they are 10 cap at all was a stroke of grace during the last couple weeks of v4. That they are still 10 cap is likely an oversight.
EFU has always had a content wall where once you're high level, you have very few quests left available to you. It just happens that CoR's content wall appears to be level 8 with the current content you've found available to you.
Quote from: Howlando on February 04, 2019, 09:06:52 PM
I also want to clarify, that I don't mind if a degree is aid is offered to PCs for Rings 100-95, but that the experience of getting a Key to get past Ring 95 into Ring 94 is intended as quite a major challenge and that you must absolutely not discuss ooc anything beyond there.
EFU is effectively a level 10 cap server. Beyond that requires an approved application for level 11+. Rings 99-95 are essentially the "starter zone" and the real journey begins once you've overcome the first challenge of getting to Ring 94. If anything, I'd argue the level progression is too fast when people are getting to 8 within the first couple weeks and burning out. But with this philosophy in mind, does it make sense for PCs to be pushing Level 9 on a 10 cap server when they haven't even, or just barely got past the first challenge? I'd say the answer is no.
Also, we should not expect every Ring to be a new "Quest Hub". Howlando has stated as much in some things he's posted about the Rings either on the forums or on Discord.
Personally, I'd rather see new content than see quest caps upped so people can keep running the same quests to death.
And with the new builder's module released, players are encouraged to contribute new content for EFU. For a new player like me, a lot of the quests in v5 are brand new content. For many veterans, they are familiar quests from previous chapters.
You can find the builder's module here: https://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=691649.0
Information about building for EFU here: https://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=689951.0
Content consumption will always vastly outpace content creation and honestly I think v5 just isn't ready to have level 9's and 10's running around.
Level 8 is a plenty powerful level. At first I didn't like that it was the point where questing was very limited, but I'm starting to sort of like it. I don't agree that leveling is too fast however. If you grind non stop every reset every quest possible, sure you're going to level to 8 fast, but then you'll be bored out of your mind because you didn't take the time to form proper relations beyond "lets do lizard quest" with the people around you.
This is not a shot at anyone in particular. It's just an easy trap for players to fall into. Relax a little and take your time to get to 8 and then by the time you do, you'll have loads to do outside of questing by the time you get there. If you rush and get stuck in the 95-99 tier as a result... you can also ask to be levelled down if you'd rather achieve it purely through questing.
I'd be really discouraged if suddenly quests started giving even less experience as it's a trickle of 30-250 at 7 as it is beyond DM stuff. Also lizardfolk in particular should stay level 7 max. Yes it's tough, but it gives quite a nice reward and cutting that off at level 7 prevents the supplies from being too excessive in its current iteration. Raising it to level 8 would require further reducing the reward as a result of more people being able to do it more often. Which would be unpleasant for lower level groups trying their hand at it.
The only major issue I see is that some quests you need to get past ring 95 are 7 max, basically locking you down and making you unable to get through the ring if you are 8.
I'm good with the way quests are sparsed out right now. I enjoy the even-slower pace of lvling. It makes getting to lvl 8 feel like an absolute achievement. Above and beyond? GOOD LUCK!
Quote from: Rick Weaver on February 11, 2019, 07:57:15 PM
The only major issue I see is that some quests you need to get past ring 95 are 7 max, basically locking you down and making you unable to get through the ring if you are 8.
I won't confirm or deny if this comment is entirely true, but if you do believe that is the only source of said items, you could always offer a hefty sum for a group to retrieve it for you!
Specifically in regards to the plot-relevant quests, being encouraged to die so you can progress seems pretty outrageous to me, especially given the random nature of quest availability in that area. Encouraging people to die intentionally to remain in the level range and lose the hours upon hours they invested getting that xp is seriously backwards, especially for people with more limited playtimes.
My group finished that up the process in question yesterday, the same day I hit level 8, and I'm just thankful I didn't hit 8 sooner.
It would have been very unfortunate for the group to have one vital member suddenly be unable to assist with the recovery of the objects in question. I'd have no objection if they weren't plot relevant, but given they are, a bit more leniency on the level cap could go a long way towards easing potential frustrations.
Requiring a certain amount of characters in the 2-7 range before allowing characters above that range might be an interesting solution to this.
I am very much in favor of the level cap and higher level PCS coordinating with those of lower levels or stealing what they need from other PCS. Keep the quest levels as they are!
Hello, fellow adventurers and ring-runners. I am a very strong, powerful, and important warrior / holy man / arcanist, far more seasoned than you rabble. For reasons I cannot articulate, I need you to go into Green Hell Zone and fight the armies of horrifying [redacted] and [nope] on my behalf, and give me the choicest finds there. While such foes are a mere trifle for me, I simply cannot be bothered to match steel with them at the moment. Because I am so strong and important, you see. Please, forestall your own progress for the sake of my own, that I might go beyond this Ring and make more money and discover more secrets than you.
No? No takers? Don't suppose you're selling seppukku knives?
While I don't know what the solution here is, "kill yaself or beg weaker people for hotly-contested items" seems incredibly OOC for the vast majority of characters. This is compounded by the conceit of the Rings is "do it yourself"; selling keys is hound-bait, but selling the intermediate steps isn't?
My character gathered the items with a team, and right before finish, was excluded.
This should not be a problem. In fact it should be good - conflict is the soul of the server etc. etc.
He should be able to form an alternate team, tag along with other teams he has have connections with. An opportunity to do more stuff.
Except I dinged 8. So now I am basically ringlocked (no pun intended).
I can either ask a DM for delevel (which is both painful and dangerous given the state of PvP) or I can give up ringrunning for this charcter for ever.
It does seem a bit harsh, tbh.
Edit: It occurs to me, if you dont want folks to spam them post-item collection, just write it on the QA description? Do not do this quest if you have done SPOILER?
A DM told me in-game these quests are meant to be capped at 7 and not intended as a chance to resupply due to the way they're balanced.
Personally I am not sure I agree. I was 8 before I even saw most of these quests. One of them I didn't ever get to do yet, hence the suggestion.
That said... making them 8 would probably encourage grinding to 9, so I am not sure if there even is a good solution.
Personally I'm not sure what the solution is, and am hesitant to start yanking up quest caps prematurely - I think we are enjoying the lower level range and if we have 5 big meaty 8+ quests that can be done every reset so readily accessible we'll soon see a server filled with level 9 PCs.
However, in the meantime, if you are lacking a specific item, and are level 8, you may contact myself or another DM for the quest cap to be temporarily lifted.
A lot of the conversation has been driven by the assumption that increasing the level limit to 8 would somehow make it significantly easier for players to get to 9 because of the accessibility of these quests. If this is the major fear or detriment to making the change, why give level 8 characters who take the quest experience? Allow them to take the quest but don't give any completion experience. This allows characters to continue to work towards their ringrunning goals without increasing the average level of the server.
I have personally never been extremely fond of the questing meta based on level. 2-5 being having their own quests is fine, but it gets awkward and finicky from there. The 6-7 range typically has its own quests (with sometimes max 8s thrown in), and then the max 9+ quests. I fully admit that I don't have a very thorough understanding of how quest scaling works based on party level. Nor do I have a firm grasp of the tenuous "balance" of risk vs. reward on quests based on the max level and the items that drop. But this phenomenon of hitting 8 and immediately being cut off from most of the server's content has always been strange to me.
The argument, in the past, is that people should be "doing something" once they reach a certain level because they are expected to have a certain amount of prestige or power. The reality tends to be that people hit level 8-10 and just stop logging on with the same frequency. Without something like a wage, these characters become starved for resources unless they can put together a consistent group to crush higher level quests without the risk of not breaking even. Worse, this usually ostracizes the character from groups that they were normally tight knit with; "Sorry, that's beneath me! Go take care of the problem yourself even though we've been questing for the last several weeks together." My 'group' is currently in this situation -- one of us hit 8 before the rest and now our options are incredibly limited unless we want to break from our somewhat paranoid, but fairly inclusive House loyal interactions.
Questing can be as much about socializing as it is getting supplies. I like some of the changes that v5 has made to make the experience of hitting 8+ a little less restrictive. It seems like most quests that are not accessible every reset have very high level limits despite not being on the same difficulty level as Seers, Enclave, Distant Shore, etc. But I wonder if we are stuck in a certain paradigm because it is tradition rather than healthy for the server. Things are fine now, but once the honeymoon phase of v5 is over and player count starts to dip again, I worry that we are going to have problems.
I guess my tl;dr is that I don't understand why quest level restrictions aren't higher as long as XP gain is limited at the higher levels. Questing is fun. It promotes interaction. In the past, I've hated hitting 8 or 9 and suddenly being barred from the most common way to interact with other players without chit-chatting while being hugely restricted in supply gain outside of wages and DM events.
As I shovel my deck in this lovely snowstorm I puzzle over this conundrum.
I agree with Howland that 7 max should be what it is for these swamp quests aside from Trolls (Except for Lizardmen, I think 8 is fine because the rest are easy but Lizardmen can scale to be quite difficult!)
It is true that as a level 8, I pretty much have nothing to do if there are no seams, and if you are not a PC who sells things your reward from a high level quest is usually a break even or net loss if you don't bring the right kinds of characters such as, Tank, DPS, Buffs because DND is what MMORPG's traditionally are heavily based on. An adventuring party must be balanced to be successful more often than not. Like in the Trolls complaint thread I did notice the group in question had 6 people but 3 of them were pure spell casters two of which were non combatants, this is not how you prepare to tackle a swamp filled to the brim with Trolls.
I feel there are two ways to approach this problem.
1) Make 5man minimum to open Randoms that are built like deathtrap quests with good stuff inside and a sign at the entrance with a recommended level/party size and a if you ninja loot get ready for retirement
I feel like Randoms as they are, are fun little lootables to do with a buddy but there isn't really much if any 'adventure' to them, nor challenge very often and if there is it is lopsidedly difficult.
Yes I am aware that it would take someone to build all of this and no I don't know how to build anything in the NWN client this is just me spitballing.
2) Make hard quests that are level 6-10 that are again, designed to be brutal and have good rewards as most of the current quests are in fact very easy if you have some source of 5/+1 such as blur.
When you are level 2-4 you tend to make the most raw gold and this is good, as a catch-up mechanic for new characters. It slows down and is steady from 5-7 as you find equipment you might actually want to wear long term and then when you hit 8, in the current setting you fall off a cliff into poverty. You have a very hard time getting enough materials to compete with level 7 PC's if you don't ration yourself well and I have seen several level 8 PC's (Myself included) engaging in barricade madness. As for any mention of a Honeymoon player drop off I hope EFU can maintain 40 during decent hours going forward.
For one dollar a day you can stop a level 8 PC from killing themselves. Call 1-800-PLZ-HALP for more details
QuoteA lot of the conversation has been driven by the assumption that increasing the level limit to 8 would somehow make it significantly easier for players to get to 9 because of the accessibility of these quests. If this is the major fear or detriment to making the change, why give level 8 characters who take the quest experience? Allow them to take the quest but don't give any completion experience. This allows characters to continue to work towards their ringrunning goals without increasing the average level of the server.
This would require rewriting and rebalancing the EFUQS (efu quest system) final XP calculator which would probably be annoying to do. Maybe some day.
My hope is to finish and complete more Seams-related content that isn't level restricted at all. My view is that what is most fun is not "daily quest trains" of the same content but rather new and randomized opportunities to do different kinds of things every day.
The 95 quests are mostly about solving that particular Ring.
Look, rather than stress about fine-tuning and balancing everything I will just make a few points:
1) Loot level is already too high IMO, too many characters with extreme levels of supplies despite the player base & dm staff pretty much universally wanting a lower supply amount this chapter
2) There are much bigger issues to worry about (like the fact that massive parts of Ring 99 aren't finished, our elite factions aren't set up yet, etc....)
3) EFU is not professional, we had the choice of either continuing to develop things endlessly in the background while simultaneously trying to DM a server (which was the case for years of EFU4) or release a little prematurely and hope that players would just be patient with us as we finished and continued to develop some things.
4) There is all kinds of content awaiting you deeper in the Rings, no reason to be so focused on Ring 95.
Honestly even Lizardfolk aren't that hard if you have a solid group of level 7's who know what they're doing. I think the quests in 95, save for the ones that aren't already above that range, would be to easy to do as level 8 caps. The only real difficulty I've found in them is when just doing it for the first time ever on a brand new character or when dealing with the EFUQS scaling system that balances to the size of your party - in which case 8 party memebers turns it into a much different quest than 4 or 5.