It's always been something for discussion but it's always stuck a bit in my teeth that Rogues are second tier for stealth in EFU. Even in terms of the perks they are woefully outclassed by the nature classes by virtue of a stupid amount acquired from magical requirements.
Rogues are sneak-thieves, burglars, lockpicks, thieves, and somehow some tree dwellers that now live in caves (how do they adapt??) thrive over a class designed to be the epitome of sneak.
Except a level 5 druid can cap out with no supplies, equipment, or otherwise almost double the stealth of a rogue.
And a level 4 Ranger can get a huge leap past the competition atop 4/4 from trackless step.
Anyone got any crazy ideas or suggestions at how this can be improved?
Not that I don't agree, but, I get the point why nature based classes have better sneak. Instead of hiding around for thieving or a profession someone in the wild needs to hide from terrifying beasts that may or may not eat them alive.
You could argue a street urchin is hiding for survival as well...
Maybe a new perk for rogue that's based around that concept of hiding for survival?
TBH I feel like rogues need a bonus to movement speed and hide/ms/ab bonus while in urban areas or dungeons. I think it makes sense rangers and druids outclass them in nature, but I feel rogues need a bonus/area they can excel.
My opinion only - abilities are counterbalanced by a lot of factors when looking at how one class over-all performs vs others. In this case, I feel the sneak for rogues (though less than wilderness types that have access to class perks or spells) is made up for in the rogues access to a wider variety of primary class skills that aid in immediate personal and group survivability (ie, tumble, UMD, listen, spot, search, the most SP per level) + the very powerful sneak attack.
Quote from: I love cats on January 04, 2018, 07:49:37 PM
TBH I feel like rogues need a bonus to movement speed and hide/ms/ab bonus while in urban areas or dungeons. I think it makes sense rangers and druids outclass them in nature, but I feel rogues need a bonus/area they can excel.
I really like the idea of rogues getting bonuses in urban areas and or dungeon/quests that apply (buildings, forts, ect). Kinda like a ranger of the streets. I can think of so many places where this can be used well.
Rogue can get very nice stealth with perks now, which they get more than any class and last no matter what level you are after you first earn them. Sneak attack is extremely powerful at 9 you can do potentially 30 more damage to a NPC or PC. Added to the fact they get the inspection tool which can not only determine the gold, stealth, detection, and exact HP of a target. I also feel they have the best and most varied perks of all classes.
Personally I think it's a nice balance. Rangers may get a bit more stealth but they also likely spend most of the time in the wilds where it's more needed.
Also the fact most PCs never invest in any sort of detection skills and the NPC detection is not that great, even a rogue with 'mid range' stealth can get around mostly undetected with the other boons of the class.
It's important to note that rangers and druids get fewer points to invest by a wide margin, so where rogues can quite easily get all the skills they need to do all the things they want to do, a ranger is going to have to make some difficult choices in skill selection to take stealth.
Some facts:
Human ranger with 12 INT, or non-human with 14, gets 6 skills. Their selection is :animal empathy (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Animal_empathy), concentration (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Concentration), craft armor (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Craft_armor), craft trap (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Craft_trap), craft weapon (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Craft_weapon), discipline (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Discipline), heal (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Heal_(skill)), hide (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Hide), listen (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Listen), lore (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Lore), move silently (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Move_silently), parry (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Parry), ride (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ride), search (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Search), set trap (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Set_trap), spot (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot)
If we aren't considering the basically useless skills, (eg. crafting skills, parry, ride), that leaves 11 skills, of which you have to choose 5 that your character simply won't be good at.
So, take Hide, Move Silently, Animal Empathy, and Listen. if you're going to swing a sword, take Discipline. If you want to actually do ranger things (explore, find hidden things) you need search and spot also.
What have we lost? Concentration, so you're susceptible to taunts, Heal, so you're relying on expensive potions or other people to heal you, lore, so you'll never be self-reliant for your gear. You sure as hell won't be cross-classing disable trap, you'll never get that sweet AC bonus from tumble, or saves bonus from Spellcraft... You are basically only good at hiding and spotting things.
I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced: you're gonna be damn good at stealth, and if you're out in the wilds you will have to be or just the act of doing your main class thing (exploring, wandering the wilderness) will lose your 1/3rd of your XP every other day when you die to a damn cave bear.
Anyway, it requires minimal investment for a rogue to get enough stealth to hide from 70% of the player base 100% of the time. I think rangers may, admittedly, have an absurdly easy time hitting a level of stealth that almost nobody will ever be able to pierce (40+ Hide being trivial to get, and 20+ Spot requiring a tremendous investment).
So maybe that's where to look for balance changes: make it easier to boost spot & listen. Right now even a PC who's taken all the feats and bought all the gear, and gotten a 20+ spot score is still going to be basically incapable of spotting the ranger with 40 hide.