Unfortunately I have to rant a bit as this has bothered me since EFUM.
In the gameworld, you can find many items which give your characters certain bonuses to boost their skills or abilities in myriad of ways. But more importantly, these items have an essence that they reflect (usually attempted to be portrayed in the description and name section of the item that someone has bothered to write...). And because this is a roleplaying server, the question you need to ask yourself before you don your findings is:
"Should my character wear this item?"
The lack of "red border" in an item does not really give an OK-mark for your character to blatantly associate himself with items that likely are against his moral or personal preferences. Few examples of what I've seen:
Paladin with Gruumshite Band and Shield blessed by Malar - A man who is supposed to be a righteous person of goodness, honor and lawfulness happily involving himself with relics blessed by Chaotic Evil gods whose work he opposes daily?
LG Elf with Iron Dread Lord's Pendant - A goodly aligned elf wearing a goblin tyrants pendant. Not only is there the issue of donning on evil goblins ex-amulet of dreadness, there is the issue of elven background and their likely hatred of goblins in general -furthemore- cultural background of the elves who usually like to wear pretty and delicate things. So it does make a bit of contradiction with the nice tailored suit you've made yourself?
LG Monk with Parasitic Larval Gloves - Not only should his alignment be vehemently against these violent and enthralling creatures, he is a monk who are known for their path of self-control, of both body and mind. These gloves give -3 will (in addition to the very nice unarmed bonuses) which likely means that you are constantly on the edge of the parasite hide fighting against your mind and attempting to take control of it- at least shaking your personal identity. (Maybe an LN? Monk could have used the gloves every now and then to test his will to battle against the parasites but -not- casually just running around larval wrappings on his hands and not in -any- way portray the mental battle he is constantly going through)
Sophisticated and well-dressed bard with Orcan Gore Dancing Boots - Be as it may, these boots do give a nice bonus in perform. Also these have been used to dance in battlefield over corpses to enhance orcan brothers into wild slaughter, are made by crude and savage orcs and are now covered in bloodstains. Sounds like a good pick for a tribal bard or a grim warrior-bard but not exactly fitting for your fancy-clothed town bard. In fact the bloodstained crude boots are likely to -decrease- your overall appearance in the local inn than grant any further bonuses to your silken attire.
I'm not saying this is an extremely wide spread issue but I've seen this appearing even amongst players who have played here for a long while. The same goes for accessing items with Use Magic Device skill. If you are a goodly aligned person, you might think twice before you activate that Diabolists Crown - or suffer the possible consequences. If you are attempting to be an intimidating thug, nice little silken pink gloves boosting your persuade might not be the best option.
I'm not saying a silken pink-gloved thug couldn't be a good concept!!! or that any of the other contradictions couldn't occur in the gameworld but at least if you do so, make them obvious in your characters reasoning, concept and portrayal to other players and DMs. (Through emotes, descriptions and actions. Personal character notes are also a good section to mention any special cases and such).
TL, DR
Not "Am I mechanically able to use this item?"
but instead "Should/would my character use this item?"
I don't think pragmatism is alignment restricted. And that goes double when the world is falling apart around you.
I dont think soo. Look, you will play elven... will elven drink elven blood? (Elven blood is healing trinket from elven), will your elven drink elven eyes stew? (its a boost potion)? Mechanically you know what it is, but icly.. your elven never will do. Not elven, but you like player, that means... it is oocly = metagame.
I am affraid, Santelmo wrotte right.
I'm pretty sure someone posted something to this effect before, about how there should be a problem with, say a Cleric wearing armor or an item directly opposed to his faith. Pragmatism makes sense, sure, but it's also a bit of a cop-out. Your goblin ranger isn't wearing that goblin-hunter ring because he has no other choice, he's wearing it because who wouldn't turn down an extra spell slot?
I think there's a certain degree of style to having the most effective or easy choice available to you and picking the tougher route because it fits your theme/concept/character better. Unfortunately, there's no way to enforce that kind of thing.
We are not ignorant to use of items in dire need and in apocalyptic world. But if you play this specific character, and don't respect that roleplay when it comes to use of these controversial items just because they don't visually show or so, don't expect us to respect it either.
If your character is such that would use anything, then we totally understand it. However when you play one thing, and behind the scenes act otherwise, we who can actually see what visually others should see, will show it through NPC's and other means, as Elmo said. There might just well be consequences in interactions or otherwise.
Pragmatism is entirely fine, and awesome if you're playing the sort of amoral survivor who would use anything to improve his chances of survival. However, this should surely therefore be incorporated in the general roleplay and personality of the character also, no?
P.S. No single player/character is being singled out in this thread, consider this thread a gentle reminder for everyone to put some thought into what kind of items you will use. And it's one of those things DMs pay attention to.
I think it is also reasonable to keep in mind that many items do not need to be static. Surely someone could just wash and dye a particularly blood stained and grisly set of boots, for example.
It is not hard to justify anything. However, it is a question of whether you believe it myself, or do you intent of mechanics. If it's really IC correctly, or whether this is justified OOC.
What Elmo said is correct.
A little bit of fear IG is also healthy. Over the years I have enjoyed seeing people get spell failure or have some very nasty misfortune when wearing something wildly inappropriate.
My favourite being a Baneite Cleric wearing a Tormite cloak and a General of Bane arriving to lay the smack down :).
Quite amusing as the PC and Player crapped themselves.
Anyway, what i hate is, when i see a bard wearing full-plates and before fight or quest, this bard off his armor, cast some spells, put on his armor and with smille on his face he go smash enemies. Why i must see in game naked bard before battle, who cast spells and doesnt matter around are women?
It doesnt matter bard is it. It can be arcana mage. Thats is really RP, be naked somewhere and cast spells naked. Its a new form of deviation? :confused:
I once came upon a goblin skull belt with 25 charges of Infestation of Maggots. I wanted it sooooooo bad, but alas had to decline because ewww. Totally against Jannath. *pouts*
I agree completely with Elmo and the DM's on this. I absolutely love seeing PC's turn down mechanically superior items for reasons of their character's personality. Sometimes that means you're not going to get a lot of gear upgrades if you're playing an especially stubborn PC on a variety of issues.
But in the end it adds a lot more roleplay than say, if my dwarven paladin were wearing an assortment of duergar crafted goods, goblin rings, and so on.
Although I'll freely admit using a barrel lid for a while because I liked the shield model xD
Quote from: Yalta;351534What Elmo said is correct.
How did I go this long without realizing DM SanTelmo = Elmo? God I feel dumb. I suppose congratulations are in order, too, if a bit overdue. Sorry about that, bud.
On the subject at hand, I quite agree with 100% of what OP said. However, it needs to be pointed out that there is not exactly an overabundance of useful gear floating around that is not also somehow disgusting or horrifying. People wear monster stuff because apparently the goblin and kobold tribes around Dunwarren make the finest quality weapons and armor in the Underdark.
Don't any of these monsters ever capture humans and steal their stuff? Sure, an elf might never wear a Profane Relic of Nasty Badness, but is the reverse also true? Would an orog have any qualms about ambushing some elf and stealing their nice pretty necklace? That kind of thing is not often reflected in the loot tables, and it shows in PC inventories.
I'm just saying, the options are kinda limited, and the quality of quest loot tends to skew towards monster races. The most famous non-monster craftsman in the setting is a drunk who is notorious for botching up his work. If and when you are fortunate enough to find a weapon with +1 on it, there is a 99% chance it was made by an illithid, a beholder, an orc, or some other awful fiend race.
Sometimes it feels like humans, elves, and dwarves just suck at making weapons, and the only clerics who enchant magical items serve the most disgusting and obscure deities in the pantheon.
Quote from: xXCrystal_Rose;351550I once came upon a goblin skull belt with 25 charges of Infestation of Maggots. I wanted it sooooooo bad, but alas had to decline because ewww. Totally against Jannath. *pouts*
"OH! Why I am grabbing it? Do not worry, I just need to see some dead organic matter to rotten faster so I can fertilize this new garden I got."
"... if it is too much?! Do not worry. It's a big garden!"
QuoteSometimes it feels like humans, elves, and dwarves just suck at making weapons, and the only clerics who enchant magical items serve the most disgusting and obscure deities in the pantheon.
Welcome to EFU:U
I think a lot of people are guilty of this, myself included, even in minor ways! I sometimes forget I'm healing with dark evil goblin magic bones.
Bards changing into or out of armor to buff then ready for action always gives me a chuckle.
I think the goblin lord talisman needs a better description if it is going to fall under this list of items. I thought I was being careful with this sort of thing, but since nothing the talisman did was inherently evil I've been wearing it with my Lawful Good Dwarf for two days as a trophy of a victory.
My activity has been very awful, so maybe I shouldn't comment on recent things, but this has been an issue since when I first started in the last chapter.
Somehow regular people have lost the ability to forge normal weaponry, and clergy of patrons that are either crusade-esque or neutral in nature have lost the ability to enchant their weapons. On the other hand, primitive, caveman type Orc tribes have somehow become masters at grinding stone into axe heads and have mastered enchanting within a generation, pumping out some very lethal greataxes to slash people with.
Most people've already brought up the point that clothing is just clothing and can be washed, dyed and reinforced to cover the wear-and-tear, as well as weapons can have symbols grinded off the surface or ultimately just tweaked in a cosmetic sense. I do feel though that genuine goods shouldn't be found solely off of troll corpses and danky caves, but in shops and areas frequented or maintained by said forces as well. Perhaps at prices that reflect player item listings to compete with player made and driven economy.
Look, if PCs are doing low-level quests raiding goblins and other monstrous humanoids it stands to reason that they'll find that kind of gear on those quests. If they're doing machine-scavenging they'll find old Machine stuff or scrapper stuff, etc. If you raid Mudmen, you'll find strange claystuff. On EFU quests, whatever you're raiding are likely to drop their left-over gear or find their prized treasures in their treasure-chambers.... and this is a good thing.
On the other hand, our standard generic loot drops are overwhelmingly more "neutral" and there is definitely no shortage of excellent good aligned, beautiful wondrous loot that is a core part of our module also... just it's a bit rarer and less likely to show up in a goblin's dungheap.
There is also, of course, a tremendous variety of items available for sale in the House of Trade. But reworking evil goblin items or dying blood-spattered, runic boots of the corpse-dancer is something that I think is a bit ridiculous. We try to make it so every item has a particular flair and feeling; in many cases the nature of the mechanical advantage comes from that flair, I don't think it's so ridiculous to expect players to respect that a little.
Absolutely not ridiculous, and it really should be assumed that PCs know what not to wear, and told so when they don't. This is a problem on the part of players which should be addressed. All of the examples provided by OP were spot-on. But there are also gray areas here, such as items which are simply made by goblins, kobolds, or whatever, and when there is nothing else available, why not use those things? It seems perfectly in-character in this setting to me.
I'm not complaining by any stretch. I like things pretty much the way they are. But in seven years I've also never seen, say, an Ilmateri healing cloak, or a Helmite warblade. These things exist in Faerun, they are not uncommon, and I don't think it is at all unreasonable for players to make use of substitutes in the absence of these things. To the contrary, I always took that to be a way to express the "desperate survival" aspect of the setting which I enjoy so much.
The odd flavorful loot sets the tone of a setting that is literally Hell on Earth. I'm just saying, if that's what you put out there for us, and that's all we're ever likely going to get, we are in fact sometimes going to find a reason to use that goblin short sword or what have you.
EDIT: I swear I'm not trying to be a bummer here, this thread just felt like it desperately needed a counterpoint.