Yes, this is awesome. It is HOLY SHIT LORD awesome.
But it will suck.
I tell you now, it will suck.
How do we know if a DM is online? EFUSL doesn't tell us shit.
How would new players to the server react? poorly I imagine, they see this character list and they click on us, and see no one! Is it possible to re-instate this, but merely blot out the levels?
If the problem is that new players will think nobody is online, maybe just have it show a couple characters with names giving a message along the lines of "Players Not Shown To Prevent Metagaming"
This was certainly considered when making the decision. We know some players like checking for DMs for a variety of good or bad reasons, but I think the simple truth is that it bothers us. We could always show are DM avatars, we could configure the server to say that "DangerousDan has logged in as a game master," and we could show online DMs on efusl. But we don't. I'm not going to get into the philosophy of that decision.
As for the "new player" scenario, the server still shows the NUMBER of players online when browsing all servers on the server-browser, just not the level of characters in game. Perhaps you're right, that wee little fact might in the end result in turning a handful of players away, but the ones who are not even mildly curious maybe aren't the kind of players we're looking for.
Also, watch your mouth, Thomas.
I think it is great that this is not seen. I normally do not look at it, but once I was getting into a duel in Sanctuary's arena and someone told me that I was crazy as the guy was F6/B2, ...
I do not want people to metagame to determine whether they want to fight someone or not.
I do not want people to get on only if there is a DM.
I do not want people to stear clear because a DM is on.
I do not want someone to know whether a character is a fighter or a bard, I want to learn IG.
Oh, and a double also: Yeah, the original hope was for hiding just the levels and builds, removing DMs and possessed creatures, and locking portraits for polymorphed characters. The work I stole to get this accomplished was however done in a way that only allows for an all-or-nothing approach. I don't have the knowledge required right now to make that wish happen in a reasonable amount of time or effort, so I'm going to move on to other things.
Personally, I think it's a great step. No more metagaming, woo!
This is an incredible addition, and should stay!
I *bleep* love it. I'm totally serial.
I like the change.
Down with metagaming! A great move, I am pleased greatly.
A good choice, all around. No more playing it safe!
Quote from: efuincarnate;104688A good choice, all around. No more playing it safe!
I am very afraid of this new challenge. I will end up PvPing a level 2 by accident in the wilderness and then get banned because I wasn't supposed to "grief" someone so low-level. (Of course I am sure it wouldn't happen like this, really, but you know what I mean. This will force me to treat level 2's and 3's like everyone else and might end up ending interesting stories too early.) Also I must honestly admit that it really, really isn't fun to ask EVERYONE to go on quest X only to have them tell you they're not in the level range - a terribly silly OOC thing that could oh-so-easily be avoided with the list.
Honestly, I think this is a good change if we want to be a "Hardcore RP Server", strict and "elite"; but I never thought of EfU as that, really. Playing here shouldn't be stressful, it should be fun- isn't that why we don't enforce perma-death for everyone, or make it so you have to apply for every character, and DMs let players have alts?
I will really, really miss the player-list, a very handy OOC tool that saves a lot of needless IC silliness (Asking ten people to go on quest X, only to find out they're all level Z); not to mention sometimes it is really incredibly handy to know a DM is on. (But I can actually see the benefits of not seeing it; but this is, after all, a message board, so I may as well write what I prefer!)
I like the change, and only have one critic about it: when i log on to quest, i like to know what other people are so as to know what pc i'm gonna log.
When there's a lot of people on, it doesn't matter.
But when there's few people on (timezone issues again), knowing class and lvl is important not to waste time. The side effect will probably be tells like 'what class and lvl are you?" or "wait, i'll log another pc so we can quest together".
Beside that, it's cool to judge pcs on what they do and say, and not become famous overnight just because you hit lvl9.
I am ambivalent. I don't like it, personally, but its value to the server is unmistakable.
Dms should of Done this ages ago. Especially when I noticed Azzam went from lvl 10-lvl16 super quick! LOL Dms can now lvl NPCS without being afraid of Pcs finding out!
Yes, because we're very afraid of you knowing the perfectly arbitrary levels of our NPCs. That has nothing to do with it, and we didn't do it earlier because we couldn't.
The rule is against purposely targetting people because they are low level, this new change sort of makes it moot.
I'm with LTS here, it puts an end to the sort of "positive metagaming" I used the list for. If all other things are equal (as in, none of my main char's IG buddies are on), I will log whatever character is likely to contribute more to making something happen.
If the server's full of mid-level meleers and rogues, I'll log my mage so some questing can occur. If it's mostly level 2 new PCs, I'll use my ranger or wizard to explore the server, find someone for some RP, or possibly find an excuse to hire them for a "research trip" (Invis them to the other side of the island to tell me what the newbie quests there are like :))
I also to use it to find out if it's worth putting out a quest sending or not, rather than PMing a lot of people to ask for levels so I can suggest something appropriate, or cycle through suggestions in sendings until I get a response.
EFUA is probably even better than EFU about having quest level ranges that allow for more people join in the same quest.
Most quests are one of the following:
2-4 (most of these can be solo'd or two-manned)
2-5
3-6 (TROGS)
3-8+
4-12 (these are like, the holy shit hard quests, IIRC)
So it's not a matter of being unable to join a quest (unless you're one of the level 9s on the server), but rather, being unwilling.
Will it be harder for you on a quest if you're the only level 3 on Wild Orcs? Probably. But there'll be sweet XP and loots if you survive the challenge. EFU has always been about challenge, and has always been full of hardcore elements, without being "elitist."
So go and TALK to people about what quests you can try to do together. As long as you make IC mention of what your next task will be, you can even run through the quests you're capable of doing in tells (to avoid awkward sessions on top of the ziggurat where you keep going "That doesn't interest me. // Already did it.")
Who gives a fu(dge) if it means you might ask a few people to go on a quest and they're not in the level range? Why is this a big deal? They make up an IC excuse and you propose another one if you're so hellbent on questing.
The advantages so far outweigh the perceived cons that I am dumbfounded the suggestion has any support!
Lets chew through this a moment:
I can't see if my buddies are on!
Use EFUSL, thats what it;s there for
How will i organinse quests? :( Oh, I don't know. RP It maybes? You never know you might end up bringing someone you haven't met before. And that it pertinant to good RP and expanding the possibilities tfor this server
What if I gank a lvl 2? We all know ganking isn't black and white. If they really were deserving of Pwn. Surely that shit can be taken on a case by case basis.
I'm a firm believer of this new and improved arrangement.
Mainly for things like Lycanthropes. I know I hated mine in particular, when individuals could see "OH HEY THAT DUDES PORTRAIT IS CHANGED LOL", and then folks "Knew but didn't know" That I was playing a werewolf.
It adds a lot to more of an IC focused thing, and I am found myself echoing caddies. "Who gives a crap if they're too low level". That's why there's the notification in the quest-sys :D
I thinks its great. People who apped for PRC classes but want to keep it secret IG and OOC so that people have no clue that the innocent little gnome can shift into a cavebear and eat your faceoff. Personally hiding the levels of chars and classes reduces lame tactics of logging out before pvp to check their stats etc.
DMs should be listed on EFUSL. You are not the Gestapo, you don't need to hide from the players.
Strife IS the Gestapo.
I wouldn't mind DMs being shown on EFUSL though!
True, but I've found that checking the general level of the server saves a lot of contrived IC excuses, "Hang on, we need a mage of priest for this, none around? bugger.", huge numbers of OOC tells and so on. I like questing, I like doing it with an appropriate team, and a quick look at the server list let me always suggest something when I logged it that'd be able to involve a decent amount of people when there weren't many on the server. Also, knowing there if there is a DM on can be handy for "do I ask for one on IRC for an NPC posession/PvP supervision/etc, or do I make a tell, or do I pass on the idea?"
Yes, I can see there are some big advantages to the change, and the fact that "l8 on a server full of 3-4s" is the exception, not the rule, but it's not all sunshine and roses. I'm not saying "change it back", but "this is going to get a bit irritating, will it be worth it?".
I quite like my anonymity, mostly due to the fact of the sheer deluge of requests I get when players know I am on. This can be irritating, especially when I am running and event and have the server blasting messages at me, and having to keep track of multiple dialogues and NPCs. Keep it how it is for us imo.
The anonimity of DMs is a good thing. DMs are supposed to remain objective and proffesional at all times. And for that to be entirely successful there has to be a slight disconnect.
Sort of like the retaltionship between Teacher and pupil. You can be friends etc but there will always have to be that slight distance kept. It's vital to keeping the cogs running.
Quote from: Cluckyx;104815The anonymity of DMs is a good thing. DMs are supposed to remain objective and professional at all times. And for that to be entirely successful there has to be a slight disconnect.
Sort of like the relationship between Teacher and pupil. You can be friends etc but there will always have to be that slight distance kept. It's vital to keeping the cogs running.
Disagree completely. The DMs of EFU have always been forthright and friendly in most dealings, and always glad to help out and be friendly.
Pestering DMs can already be done on #EFU. Adding it to EFUSL would be nice, in my opinion, but its not a deal breaker.
You can still spam the DM channel for help.
Wow, awesome change this.
The only bad thing with this is not seeing DMs. Otherwise, it is good.
I'd like to add, while I'm still very much in favor of this, I do hope DM's don't use it as an excuse to avoid requests, thinking "hey, they don't know I'm here." I'm sure its annoying when PC's are trying to contact you while you're running something else, but I can say its just as annoying from the other side, when you are trying to find a DM and can't.
In the end, it adds way more then it subtracts, but I have a strong feeling that a lot of people are going to end up getting ignored (especially jerks like me) because DM's are doing there own thing with other players.
For PvP I really enjoy knowing if there is a DM on. PvP is top priority for a DMs time anyways but knowing there is one about can save valuable time before the throwdown - the best type of PVP - that stems naturally out of a situation. Also, in the case of questionable DM behaviour (rare) knowing the DMs involved is important (to me atleast.) Transparency has always been a part of EFU. Why object to that now? Being bombarded with requests is not a bad thing. We understand DM limits, but having that extra channel of communication /is/ important.
Please do not be concerned about any perceived inability for us to monitor our own staff. We keep logs of DM activity (most notably DM chat and DM login/logout) over very long periods of time, just as we keep logs of player activity.
In the unlikely event that there is an issue with a DM, and there is a specific event to which the DM can be attributed, it would a trivial task to extract the identity of that DM from the logs.
We fully encourage any of you with such concerns regarding specific occurrences of DM misconduct to contact a member of EfUA staff at your leisure.
There is a special file for Johannes, too.
See the new announcement (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104987&postcount=2%22).
Steal a script that removes names over character heads next.
I have been trying to, honestly.
Someday....maybe soon...maybe not...
Quote from: chatellerault;104992Steal a script that removes names over character heads next.
This sounds good in theory, but with NWN's limited character heads and bodies, it would make it impossible to recognise people you SHOULD know from others with similar heads, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is, really. :???:
Steal a LetoScript that allows a player or a DM to change their name/description, for disguises IG, IMO.
Would probably be abused, sadly.
easiest way imo. would be have a script that you can turn on that adds like {D} to the end of you your name or something. to show that you are in disguise? i dont know if this is possible. maybe a player tool?
That is not possible.
Get this back on topic or it will be locked.