TL; DR Version;
It's possible to remove all the prerequisites for Prestige classes, so they can be taken at level 2. (you still need at least level in a base class) PRC's have all kinds of cool abilities, most of which we will never see because you can't start taking (most) PRC's till around level 8. Since PRC's are app only anyways, I don't think it's that big of a deal.
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To go into more detail;
TBH alot of the real sweetness of a PRC doesn't really get tapped into, unless the PC can get to like, level 10-12 (Which rarely happens) I think a lot could be said for awesome opportunities to allow PC's to fully develop as a PRC. I am not saying they should take the PRC as soon as they hit level 2. There is still the system where the DM's need to approve the PRC. This leaves two options open; Etiehr the player proves their awesome ICly without questing, or a (pretty simple) script is added to allow the PC to relevel and replace their current class (keeping at least one level in the base class) with the PRC.
I am not saying to completely remove the mechanical requirements ( for the most part,), but make it so you do not NEED to have them to start advancing as the PRC. I think anyone who is approved for a PRC can be trusted to advance feat/skillwise as they normally would have if they were still required, but this gives them the chance to really shine as something unique rather than just some oteher lame fighter/rogue/PRC barb/barb/PRC or whatever else lame multiclass you can think of.
All for it.
Yeah, agreed.
A lot of PrCs require 6-7 levels in a fighter BAB progression class to get enough BAB to take them at EfU levels. I'd love to see Rogue/Blackguards, Cleric/Divine Champions etc.
Some classes have been changed so they get new useful abilities, but others for example Champion of Torm, seem to just be for adding flavour to the PC than to be a useful class with just one or maybe even 2 levels.
I agree that it should be about the character, and not the requisites.
This is do-able, but then anyone who wants to take the PRC will need an override, AFAIK. Not a huge problem, as you already have to app for it.
I'd rather see the prerequisites lowered, not "removed, with expectations on the player." Partly to prevent people from applying to start characters with a PRC level, and partly because a character shouldn't have a prestige class unless their character is at least partly capable of being prestigious. Also, while I'm not savvy about class level progression unless I have the wiki up, I'm sure there are some PRC feats that would be imba for lower-level characters, but are more acceptable if taken at level 5 or 6.
Being able to, say, "respecialize" your character if you're approved for a PRC several levels after you meet the requirements? :o~
That's a suggestion for another topic, but that's the one kind of respec I think might be acceptable on EFU:A.
I would be for this if it was easy enough to do, totally.
System should always be second to story.
I'm all for changes that would make it possible to play your character with fidelity, while being able to develop him in a new and interesting way.
Easy as pie.
Step 1: Decide new requirements for each class.*
Step 2: Tell me what those are.
Step 3: ???
Step 3: Have Snoteye or ExileStrife check your email in 2 to 5 days. They will know what to do. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouWillKnowWhatToDo)
[SIZE="1"]* I can do this, too, if you want, and run it by the DM team for approval.[/SIZE]
I would support this, except for the following:
Assassins. Death Attack is insanely good at this level range. There is no reason to empower it further, in my opinion.
Shifters. Hard to get anyways, but relatively low level PrC.
It's hard enough to earn the assassin PRC at level 5. I will be impressed with the level 1 that manages it.
Quote from: Garem;102859I would support this, except for the following:
Assassins. Death Attack is insanely good at this level range. There is no reason to empower it further, in my opinion.
Shifters. Hard to get anyways, but relatively low level PrC.
Along this line (sort of), I think if something like this were to be done, Make PrCs available (for those who app) at character level 5. The first four levels should be standard classes, but at level 5 you can begin your PrC.
Removing pre-reqs is too far, imo. But changing the pre-reqs so that avalability at level 5 is do-able, for example anything that needs a BAB of 7 changes to BAB of 4. Things that take up a fighters full complement of feats til level 7 should only take up their full complement of feats through level 4. Max skill requirement would be 7 ranks. Etc.
Shifters would have to be rebalanced for sure since their higher level abilities assume a higher level character. I have a feeling a number of PrC's would have to be re-looked-at for similar reasons, but that's not to say it's a bad idea.
I agree with Jayde.
A Dwarven Defender required level 7 for the class, and at level 9 (Which, while the highest level i've seen on EFUA) Takes a fair amount of time to get to.
Many of the PRc's best perks are made for a server that allows a very high level range, and I feel that the perks should be adjusted to fit the lower level range
Quote from: Gippy;102860It's hard enough to earn the assassin PRC at level 5. I will be impressed with the level 1 that manages it.
Especially since people are supposed to start at level 2. Granted that you could hold off leveling but that seems a bit metagaming. It would be funny being the target of a bunch of level 2 character wanna-be assassins to get their prestige class.
this suggestion is particularly appealing so as to amend really awkward/inappropriate feat requirements, like the PDK, Shifter, and Weapon Master.
Just to clarify, would this make it possible for characters who don't have a build with the pre-requisites but are already of a certain level (like, say, 7) to take a PrC they would otherwise be unable to?
An example:
Johnny the mercenary is a rough and evil man who finds redemption for some reason or another when he is level 7. Upon finding in the teachings of Helm the true calling of his life, he begins to live according to tenets that essentially make him a Divine Champion (and thus the player applies for the Divine Champion PrC, concurrent with earning the IC prestige for approval by DMs)
Johnny has none of the PrC's mechanical requirements, but when he reaches level 9 Helm somehow grants him the privilege of fighting in his name, and so he's able to take a level in that PrC.... Or not?
Naturally it'll depend on the new requirements as set forth by DMs, but would this be possible, is what I'm asking, in simple mechanical terms?
If so, it'd make PrC's a LOT more about prestige and a lot less about mechanics. Which is not only awesome, it'd be one of the greatest - and best - changes ever brought to EfU.
Yes, Kiaring. All requisites can be removed.
This would be incredible.
For it. Suffice to say, I am also growing tired from trying to get the requirments for prestige classes IG AND mechanically.
Also the assassin class is going to be hard to get anyway. You have to kill people for money. No-one on here has the guts to get a bounty put on their head if they're weak in pvp, and people rarely put up bounties for all to see. If you want to fullfill the requirements you'l have to be high level, or kill a lot of elven wizards..
I look this idea alot, we might actually some decent sorcerer/RDD about!
We could either: remove all mechanical prereqs, OR change them. I, personally, am more in favor of changing them.
I would be highly resistant to removing all of an Assassin's mechanical requirements, or all of an Arcane Archer's requirements, both because these classes WILL get mechanical advantages intended for higher-level characters, and/or because they should have certain qualities (like bow focus) so they can make sense as prestigious members of their class.
As an example, Divine Champion currently requires 7 BAB and Weapon Focus. I think we could drop the BAB requirement and make it just Weapon Focus (with an RP constraint being that it's the deity's favored weapon).
This should probably be accompanied with clarification for the RP requirements of the class, as well. Divine Champion, especially. FWIW, I would veto Johnny the Born-again Helmite if I was still a DM.
A must-be for an rp server, in my honest opinion.
I support this, at the very least lower the requirements to be more fitting for this server level range. As long as they're putting time in for IC requirements, I think they deserve it, as long as they are reasonably within the mechanical requirements (So for example, not even anything close to whirlwind attack (not even dodge or expertise) wouldn't get Weapon Master)
It would also make it possible to be a wizard/shifter, which is what the class is best for, honestly.
If you get ganked by a level two pc, they deserve the assassin prc. But on a serious note, for most prc's, by the time you earn them, you won't gain enough levels for it to shine, therefore, I agree with the lowering of the standards set by NWN.
Of course, even before you gain the prc, you should be rp'ing as if you already had the class, or are at least "in training", so I don't know how much effect it would actually have.
This would really make for some new interesting concept ideas. I for one have wanted to make a divine champion before but it was completely out of reach. I've never made it past 8th level and then only stayed there for a millisecond both times...
If balance is the idea then you could add a restriction or two to the prc's, maybe restrict a weapon master from using heavy armor, something like that.
Will be All classes allowed ? lvl 1-5 common and 6- any?
Sounds like a good idea, if it is easy enough like NC said. I also agree with Scotty that changes should be made. For example, I don't think assassin needs to be changed or shifter. Now Prom mentioned wizards being able to take shifter, if you wanted to remove the restriction of needing to be druid first, sure but the lvl req should definitely stay as is. I don't see anything wrong with the feat either. AA should be kept a little closer to its current lvl requirement but the rest seem fairly decent. I suppose maybe Weaponmaster could use a reworking since you can't currently get it at starting at lvl 6 anymore.
Given the choice, I'd be more in favour of changing them rather than removing them.
Though I'm dubious as it is.
Although still undecided, some classes will most definitely need to keep their requirements. AA, Weapon Master and probably Assassin. They will be far too powerful otherwise (Arcane Archers getting +4 arrows, every Weapon Master with 10 round haste/once day and probably Ki Critical too, etc).
It would be interesting to have hide and move silently removed as a prerequisite for the assassin PRC. That would allow for more interesting assassins.
I take back what I said about helping the DMs figure out new requirements. I'll have no part in a decision that will likely be a major point of contention among my fellow PvP-happy players.
I'll still do the work though, as long as I know what work I'm to be doing.
I am surprised you are not trying to become Plum Applewood, Arcane Archer.
To me, a PRC is just like a subrace, you (almost always) should be playing the PC as if they were already or were training to be the PRC, like someone else said.
If not removing them completely, adjusting the reqs so they can be taken at 2-4 would be the way to go, IMO.
Classes like WM and AA and Assasin could be a nonissue, imo.
Assasin, if they CAN earn it in the eyes of the DM's at levels 2-4 rather than the usual 5-6, they deserve the early death attack, imo.
AA, the feat progression can be changed so their +1 feats are not gained until like AA level 2 or 3, or something like that.
WM, same deal as WM, If you really need to, you can kick back the boost progresssion a bit so the really good bonuses are not earned /too/ soon.
I can't speak for shifter, but TBH I do not see very much difficulty in balancing this out. Actually implementing it /should/ take like 20-30 minutes of 2da work tops + testing (another 30 minutes?)
For such a small amount of work, the diversity of EFU:A could skyrocket as we see more variety in classes and how they are RP'd.
Love me and my amazing ideas
Still not really in favour.
PRCs are a culmination of experience and training on behalf of the character. I don't see anyone earning intensive PrCs like Blackguard or Divine Champion before levels 6/7 anyway, and just because we suddenly remove some restrictions doesn't mean we are going to lower the application requirements also.
I see a problem with the “this is a RP server” and this idea. Yes, I agree this would be awesome, but I also see problems with its awesomeness in that some players would take advantage of the PrC’s abilities. It would be just as easy to say lets raise the server cap on levels to be able to see these PrC’s in action. Which I think most would not agree with.
Actually, it would probably be much easier to raise the level cap than to change all the PrC prereqs.
9lives knows that CLEAVE is an essential part of all secret blackguard training.
Not to mention the +5 Hide!
But, if the rest of my august companions are similarly inclined (and can be bothered) some changes, or removals, could be nice. I'm just not interested in removals across the board.
Personally I think that if you deserve and earn the prestige class, then the requirements are moot. Plus, we can always decide these things on a case-by-case basis anyway. We could change the requirements for some prestige classes (like WM, say) and then not for others.
I'm of the 9lives gutter of thought.
I really like this idea alot, except that many of the PrCs have already been altered to be more in line with the level limits of the server. Mind you, that was all for the last server...
A compromise between needing six levels of lame feats for weapon master and having a lot of level seven characters running around with blinding speed and 15-20 critical hit ranges would be nice.
The modified palemaster summons would also be incredibly powerful on a lower level character.
Purple Dragon Knight PrC needs some serious changes <_>
I really doubt that something so drastic as 'omg remove all requirements mass level two prcz' would ever happen, since they are judged on an application basis in the first place. I am in favor of removing/changing the requirements of certain prcs, because if the player has earned it, I would say they deserve to take the class! And as Nuke said, it is a case by case decision anyway, so why not bend the requirements for appropriate situations?
Changing it to allow more open interpretations of each class would be interesting, imo. A Blackguard should not have to have sneak and cleave, a Shifter should not be Druid only, and it would be good to let more artistic interpretations of classes exist, rather than bound by the limiting pre-reqs. I personally, would be all for removing the pre-reqs and having it completely the DM's choice if that character could be prestigious enough to be known as a Blackguard, a Divine Champion or a Weapon Master.
Don’t get me wrong, the idea sounds very tempting. I’m just thinking that some class mixes and easier prereqs may make for broken PC’s.
And if you all are saying leave it to the DM’s and the app approval then things could get touchy, I can hear it now; “Hey you let schmoebag be a wizard/shifter! Why cant I be a monk/RDD damnit anyway!?â€
Just my two cents worth.
Certain prerequisites should not be disregarded. Such as the wildshape requirement for Shifter, and the arcane casting required for RDD. If those were removed, the prestige classes would not make sense ICly.
As per PnP Shifter doesn't require Wildshape specifically, just a natural alternate form. I don't think a Wizard's Polymorph fits the bill, but all Lycanthropes would be eligible.
I just checked the shifter PRC in Masters of the Wild, a 3.0 rulebook, which says the following.
"Alternate Form—must either know polymorph
self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph
self, shapechange, or wild shape ability."
And also this.
"The shifter’s path is ideal for a spellcaster of any race
who has experienced shapeshifting and yearns for more
of it."
The updated version, in Complete Adventurer, Master of the Wilds, requires wildshape.
So with the older version, a wizard/shifter could be a possibility. I do not see anything wrong with that, though. It is not more powerful than a druid/shifter, considering the lower BAB, less hp, etc.
Wizard polymorph does fit the bill in Canon PnP. You just need to be able to shift, not have a natural form.
If I am not mistaken you have to be wanded to even take a PrC. So even if all mechanical requirements are removed, the DM's still decide at which level you begin taking the class.
I believe mechanical requirements should be removed, and the specifics of the requirements should be left up to the DM's to decide based upon individual applications and common sense. In effect, leaving it in the hands of the DM's to decide on a case by case basis.
If someone can write an awesome enough application to get assassin at level two, then I trust the DM's to make a wise decision.
At the end of the day, it is role-playing and not mechanics that make a PrC. Though, naturally, the role-playing should be reflected in the mechanics where and when possible.
Aldrick pretty much has it. It's up to the DM's anyways, the requirements becoming guidelines instead of requirements would be awesome. You're not going to have a weapon MASTER without most of those feats anyways, etc.
Take out the requirements completely, and as long as the person's app is sufficiently awesome they should not have to worry about what feats they have, imo.