I suggest that we do away with Random Hit Point rolls.
Ten Reasons Against Random Hit Point Rolls[LIST=1]
- It is one of the most stressful parts of the nwn experience for many front liners.
- It is a widespread issue, as shown when anytime there is the opportunity for someone to modify their rolls, someone will end up doing it. As proven by the many people that purposefully die in order to have another attempt.
- Sure we've had it for years, however that does not limit the number of problems that have cropped up over time due to this. I've seen many threats from the DMs over the years and I ask if the bit of random is really worth the trouble, I'll tell you right now the few extra hit points certainly are.
- Buying a higher Constitution and Toughness and then rolling minimum while another build exactly like you rolls maximum gives then +4 character points and +1 feat advantage over you, even if that spread isn't quite That extreme. Random hp undermines the value of Constitution, this is the only stat that suffers such random devaluation.
- It doesn't add anything to the game, as Hit Point are already hidden.
- It creates an unfair and pointlessly random bias that has no real bearing on the characters themselves, if the DMs feel like rewarding a tough character with extra hit points, they're fully capable of giving them con bonuses, which are character specific.
- Since damage rolls are random, it presents no advantage to know someone's estimated hit points, no more then predicting their attack bonus, damage, or possible feats. All of these must be observed first anyway.
- Classes with high hit dice are hurt severely when they roll low or minimum and get an undue advantage when they roll maximum.
- On average these will normally fix themselves, but if you're one of the unlucky ones, then you're just that much more likely to die for no other reason then you're gimped.
- It's no fun to roll minimum Hit Points.
No Maximum Hit Points[INDENT]We all know that letting classes have maximum hit points is extremely unbalanced, as well we know that NWN scripts the first three levels to have maximum hit points.
[/INDENT]
I propose that every level after level 3 you gain average Hit Points automatically. [INDENT]
d4: 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3
d6: 6, 6, 6, 4, 5, 4, 5, 4, 5, 4
d8: 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
d10: 10, 10, 10, 7, 8, 7, 8, 7, 8
d12: 12, 12, 12, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9
[/INDENT]
I think Ebok puts forth a very convincing argument and I whole hardheartedly agree.
Also:
EbokianClass: 11. DnD had the option for static Hit points in their rules, and used them in every multiplayer situation when the game was enlarged beyond the table. Living Anything comes to mind.
11. DnD had the option for static Hit points in the DMG, and used them in every multiplayer situation when the game was enlarged beyond the table. Living (greyhawk, city, etc) comes to mind.
I've very often had sorcerers with more health than fighters or yes, even barbarians. Without even trying to make a high hp character. Sheer luck. This is an interesting idea, though might just end up favoring higher hit dice classes. My only real concern with this is how the generally higher level of hp will change the effectiveness of damaging magic, which is limited by level and spell slots which are covetous. Something for people more experienced with mechanics than I to discuss.
A thousand times yes. There is so much unnecessary frustration, especially as a front liner, to see that you've been stricken with a disadvantage based solely on bad luck in the mechanics of a game that's already predominantly chance-based. There's also the additional frustration of losing not only a level or two, but taking a permanent hit to your HP totals as well.
Actually no, I withdraw anything I might have said! Will just stay indifferent on this topic entirely. It does make constitution more useful though.
You reneged... :P
Lets look at fireball, 10d6 CL 10. Damage spread 10-60 bell curved to end up around 25-45 damage. If you hit a fighter with the spell three times, you'll be doing about 75-135 damage. Your damage spread far exceeds the fighters hitpoints in this given situation.
In addition, if you are concerned about such high damage spells dealing less, then you need to consider the effect of you casting that on one of the lucky few with maximum hit-points as a barbarian. They'll basically feel nothing. So essentially the damage ratio doesn't change on aggregate, only in the cases of individuals is it felt. Which creates an undue stress which doesn't add much in return.
Quote from: xXCrystal_Rose;277538I've very often had sorcerers with more health than fighters or yes, even barbarians. Without even trying to make a high hp character. Sheer luck. This is an interesting idea, though might just end up favoring higher hit dice classes. My only real concern with this is how the generally higher level of hp will change the effectiveness of damaging magic, which is limited by level and spell slots which are covetous. Something for people more experienced with mechanics than I to discuss.
Lets look at fireball, 10d6 CL 10. Damage spread 10-60 bell curved to end up around 25-45 damage. If you hit a fighter with the spell three times, you'll be doing about 75-135 damage. Your damage spread far exceeds the fighters hitpoints in this given situation.
In addition, if you are concerned about such high damage spells dealing less, then you need to consider the effect of you casting that on one of the lucky few with maximum hit-points as a barbarian. They'll basically feel nothing. So essentially the damage ratio doesn't change on aggregate, only in the cases of individuals is it felt. Which creates an undue stress which doesn't add much in return.
Unequivocal and unabashed support. Concern that it's not feasible in the NWN engine.
I completely agree with this post.
I think this suggestion has some merit. Random HPs really do undermine high CON characters quite often, and lopsidedly benefit other high CON characters just as often. I don't think randomness for the sake of randomness is more fun for anyone.
I have heard that there were numerous more ways to re-roll hit points then I ever imagined, which I think speaks to my point strongly. The ones I've just been told about in the last bit had a fix created for them, however, that's besides the point.
In addition One of the old topics, for those that wish to see what has been mentioned in the past (//'http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41481')
Specifically:
Quote from: Howland;182621I understand it can be frustrating, but there are two choices in my mind - either everyone gets the same average HPs or random (max HP is too much of a bonus to some classes). And I prefer random, randomness is the spice of life in EFU:A.
While I would love to agree with Howland at all times, I don't here. However he does suggest that such a thing is possible, and from discussions I've had back in old efu, I've been told this was relatively easy to script.
I agree with static HP's, I've long felt them an unnecessary OOC convenience such as mandatory eating and drinking.
I can understand why the DM's prefer the randomness, but it has always felt to me, as a player, a rather large annoyance to be at the whim of the dice for your characters longterm survivability.
Basically: Randomness in combat is fine, it's combat. But the randomness in your actual characters mechanical power is oft irritating.
That's just my opinion.
I agree with the OP.
I agree with Ebok all the time.
I've dabbled in NWN since almost it's release, and EFU off and on, and never personally noticed the HP. I wouldn't have even known it was a roll if not for later. I think people are a little anal. Lol, i'm also of the camp of people who think eating and drinking demands would add to immersion and rp, famines actually meaning something. Poison also does alot more in these cases perhaps.
It would be fun all around i think. I know urinating etc people compare it too, but i disagree with this in a rp adventure.
Yes, but back on topic, it wouldn't bother me much either way. Just saying it's funny people complaining about the hp rolls, though i get it.
Saying it's funny because i've never really noticed it, not because your ideas are invalid, On barbs you can roll a 1 on the d12 and only get your +3 con bonus for 4 hp? Sucks i suppose, but don't worry about it...
With mobs using Taunt and Tanglefoot bags, and things such as Chosen of Gaathmar self-buffing when they were already stronger than any pc, a small survivability boost for pcs might be in order.
Taking away the possibility of a minimum hitpoint roll would be welcome, at least for the pure frontline classes. No more barbarians and fighters doomed by having a rogues' hit points.
I actually have two PCs with very similar builds that I draw comparison between. The earlier one was 14 con while the newer one is 12 con, basically I decided to sacrifice 2 con in order to have a greater dex bonus this time around. Anyways, comparing them both at level seven despite the fact that the newer one had a d10 hp roll class replaced with a d6 hp roll class, their hp is pretty much virtually the same. Essentially, for that I agree with those posters that believe so much is left to luck in this regard despite the fact that stat points and even a feat can be invested into more hit points. That being said, I could argue for either side. However, regardless of which I decide to argue for, I can't deny the fact that static hp rolls would make things more balanced in the end. Anyhow, sorry for writing too much.
And remember that static hp won't necessarily make it easier for everyone. Some people who DO have maxed hit points will take a hit.
PC normalization, though, makes it much easier to balance encounters and makes PvP more about how the rolls in combat fall and how well you strategize instead of close bouts being swung out of proportion by someone being luckier in HP rolls (Or more diligent in dying until they get good rolls.)
Actually, if anything, this would likely only effect those who level up from this point forward. I don't think you can have it reskin everyone's hit points, though I could be mistaken.
Im against this, I like the randomness adds something new. Makes you change up your plays. And in all honesty High con isnt hurt because high con means you are -going- to get more hp, it reduces the chance you will get terribad hp.
If you -MUST- do something because so many complain. Make it give max hp at lvl 4 as well and then keep the rest random. Problem solved.
That doesn't actually solve the issue many of us are having EiW.
Ebok, Random health helps portray that things are random, and not everyone is the same. I prefer them for what they represent. If you are truely rocking an amazing concept and your hp is bad and somesuch, then the dm's will help you.
If you have low hp, try other things, if you cannot quest as much as you want to then rp more and get allies that will carry you along, if your a lower hp fighter, then flank. There is always a solution.
I'm totally for this. I've been on the short end of the roll pretty often, and it sure is a pain knowing that you can't play your character because of a completely random, semi-permanent feature you have no ability to control or affect. I very much fail to see how this of all things that are interesting/unpredictable on this server deserves to stay when it causes such grief at large. Sure, things being too static in general are boring, but this wouldn't have that effect on things.
Also, not every character in DnD is the same, but most of us like our characters to be consciously diverse, not randomly debilitated in a way we did not intend based purely by an OOC mechanic. Unforeseen differences caused by IG events is another matter entirely.
Quote from: EveryoneIsAWinner;277564Ebok, Random health helps portray that things are random, and not everyone is the same. I prefer them for what they represent. If you are truely rocking an amazing concept and your hp is bad and somesuch, then the dm's will help you.
If you have low hp, try other things, if you cannot quest as much as you want to then rp more and get allies that will carry you along, if your a lower hp fighter, then flank. There is always a solution.
That last paragraph should read, "if you have a low CON score, try other things." A low CON score is much different than a low HP roll. You intentionally choose to have a fighter with a low constitution modifier because it suits their character and you can base their actions in combat on how they react to their level of stamina. Is a low stamina fighter going to stubbornly step up to the plate and take the front lines, or shrink away from the responsibility? HP rolls railroad your character into a level of stamina that is effected by mechanical randomness rather than IC, roleplaying relevance.
It's no different than a full BAB class having less AB than a 3/4 BAB class who has the same strength or dexterity score. We (typically, hopefully) arrange the stats of our characters for a specific purpose relevant to their physical, mental, and biographical conditions. Rolling for HP scores more or less spits on these aspects of characters in favor of randomness.
Exactly. There is nothing else on the character sheet that is randomised. "But the DMs can help you" is a bad argument that comes up everywhere. You shouldn't have to expect a DM to be watching every character and spying out for broken stuff to go and fix. It's not fun, and it just leads to attention-seeking PCs getting more cool stuff while quiet ones get passed over.
The whole point of character creation is that you OOCly design a character that you are interested in playing. The strengths you want them to show off, the weaknesses they need to cover. When a big chunk of your build is utterly random, this is a massive spanner in the works when it works out badly for a character. You should never have to "change up your plays" because an OOC mechanic screws with your story. If I want to play a low HP Fighter, I'll give him 8 CON. I don't like having random HP rolls any more than I'd like randomly giving all PCs +/- 1d2 to all stats at each level.
tl;dr:
Build variation is fantastic when it's down to player choice, which is why Perks, Backgrounds and EFUSS are wonderful stuff. Build variation is bad when it's down to random chance because it's not about playing the PC that you want to play or reacting to IC consequences such as epic loot, grafts, curses, limb loss etc.
So, make high hit dice classes stronger i.e. barbs.
Actually, I read the suggestion too fast, but either way. It`s not feasible and hence no great deal of time should be spent debating it.
It is possible to make it max roll, hidden with rolls or not hidden with rolls. The later just makes people reroll for higher hp either at maximum or close enough. Max rolls would mean more 125 hp barbarian crushbots... But would also get rid of 46 hp level 8 rogues with 14 con out of a possible 64 hp. Either way someone will complain about someone being too op and someone being too weak no matter what happens with the rolls. As long as hp is random people will die or find ways to delevel themselves to repeat hp rolls.
I'm all for static hp, whether its fixed rate % or maxxed; Those random rolls, if you're on a bad streak, can make a build pretty unplayable in action sequences. Theres entirely enough luck in combat already, with the d20, in my opinion, and even if a barb suddenly got a flood of hp it's not going to minimize the weakness of the class as they currently exist, or negate its vulnerabilities, all it does is ensure that they have the advantage in the thing they're supposed to be good at - sucking up damage while hitting crap.
I am of two minds on this, both disagree wqith the original post.
1. If you make HP rolls give the average, this favors low hit dice classes over high ones. A mages d6 becomes d6+1 with we con and on average, 4, yet a barbarian with his d12 and 14 con becomes an average of 7. Essentially, the higher thr hit dice and the more con, the lower the average. It is a math thing and one I can't explain well without drawing it. Essentiallly, this idea favors classes with low hit dice over high ones because spending points on con will now take more to get the average up.
2. I like the randomness. My first PC had great rolls, every PC I have had since, terrible ones. If we think it is a balance issue, why not make a MINIMUM roll of half the total hit dice plus con mod, instead of always using the average?
I have talked with Ebok on this a few times, I agree with him. The fact is, some characters -need- that hp. I have played three barbs, two of them had nearly max hp. The advantage this gave me over others was insane.
Where as the barb I played with low or minimal hp rolls was excruciatingly difficult to quest and pvp with, and he never survived a single dm event or invasion.
At the end of the day, some peoples concepts truly do suffer because of poor HP rolls. More so the frontliners who -need- the hp over say the rogue who already has a better chance of getting close to max hp in comparison to say a barb.
Eboks suggestion would help immensely, but if its not mechanically possible to do then I guess this is all kind of pointless to talk about.
Quote from: Barber;2776551. If you make HP rolls give the average, this favors low hit dice classes over high ones. A mages d6 becomes d6+1 with we con and on average, 4, yet a barbarian with his d12 and 14 con becomes an average of 7. Essentially, the higher thr hit dice and the more con, the lower the average. It is a math thing and one I can't explain well without drawing it. Essentiallly, this idea favors classes with low hit dice over high ones because spending points on con will now take more to get the average up.
You misread the initial post and have used wrong numbers.
The average taken is that of the dice. The average of a d12 is 6.5, so rounding up that would give a barbarian 7 hit points per level from
only the die roll. After the 7 is given then the +2 con, toughness, etc. is added.
Also wizards have d4 hit dice with an average of 2.5, not d6. Rogues have d6.
Actually the average for a barbarian is 9. Ebok had it right on the original post. The lowest it is possible to roll is a 6, and highest is a 12, so your average will be a 9. Average for a wizard being 3, because the lowest is 2 and the highest is 4.
I forgot that there were minimums to the rolls. I was just taking the average of the dice.
You're correct.
This is pointless in discussing as already stated, just chug endurance potions scum.
Quote from: Mort;277592Actually, I read the suggestion too fast, but either way. It`s not feasible and hence no great deal of time should be spent debating it.
Damn.
Quote from: Mort;277592Actually, I read the suggestion too fast, but either way. It`s not feasible and hence no great deal of time should be spent debating it.
Why not? Isn't there an option you can set to make everyone roll max HP?
Just increase the HP of all spawns by 10-20% across the board to compensate. Everyone is happy! Players die because if the unfair increase in spawn difficulty, yet they will feel happy they have max HP and don't "accidentally" die anymore to relevel.
Of course... increasing the HP of every monster might be a dull and horrible task, unless you can do it with a Perl script or something.
That doesn't work. You cannot do maximum HP. The discrepancy between the low hit dice and the high hit dice are not feasibly balanced. It's not the trouble of PvM but PvP. The only valid solution is to set average, however they can only set Maximum or Random.
I like that players die intentionally to reroll hp.
Quote from: Ebok;281100That doesn't work. You cannot do maximum HP. The discrepancy between the low hit dice and the high hit dice are not feasibly balanced. It's not the trouble of PvM but PvP. The only valid solution is to set average, however they can only set Maximum or Random.
But that's the thing. People who are lucky or do the crooky "reroll until max" thing have that massive advantage that isn't easily balanced. It's not fair to all the people who just roll with what chance gave them.
It'd be a lot more fair if it was averaged always or if the system saves how many HP you get each level up, so you can't reroll.
But I guess it's just not possible. That's why I think max HP is a solution. Sure, it makes high dice classes stronger- but they can already be, they just need luck and/or rerolls. So not much changes, except for unlucky people.
Isn't that fair?
I've never really payed attention to my HP rolls. Just go with the flow and the hand of fate. Would be nice to have a static number barring constitution and feat bonuses however.
What would we all complain or celebrate about if we didn't have random HP rolls? I'm all for max hp rolls though for sure, its just that it will never happen no matter how much we ask, argue or complain.