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Quote from: Wafflecone;249838Why bother finding non ganksquad ways to handle problems? Thats all anyone loves to do and thats the only way to get props.

The context of these comments was a discussion about finding alternatives to the Nature Gank, IE, druids coming out of the woods fullbuffed to randomly smack PC's that have been beefing with them, sometimes druids the characters in question have never even encountered of heard of.
 

Quote from: Juzza;249843That's a very shallow perspective of things and I hope it's a joke because it's very untrue.

People keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.
 
Peaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.
 
I have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.
 
If an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

You seem to be pretty egregiously misinformed about EfU. It is conflict heavy, no doubt, and many other NWN servers are less quick to accept FD as a consequence of player choice. (I'd add that many of these servers are far less inclined to respond to player effort than we are).

I personally find PVP one of the less entertaining means of conflict resolution, and will always encourage people to find interesting and creative ways to interact with each other. The current Mayoral race has been home to some pretty amazing intrigue, for example. All the Candidates have been up to a great deal that isn't evident in their forum posts- if you'd taken the time to dig a little bit, then there'd have been no need to make a bombastic post about how everyone PVPs 24/7.

I'd say that if you are feeling pvp is the only way to resolve your conflicts, then the issue isn't with the server right now.

Quote from: Wafflecone;249850The context of these comments was a discussion about finding alternatives to the Nature Gank, IE, druids coming out of the woods fullbuffed to randomly smack PC's that have been beefing with them, sometimes druids the characters in question have never even encountered of heard of.
 

 
People keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.
 
Peaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.
 
I have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.
 
If an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

Id say PVP really is not necessary. In fact I could say you can have your enemies killed with 0 skill in PVP. Also if you honestly think mechanic and PVP skills are the only way to achieve your goals or defeat your foes. Then you lack creativity as well as abstract thought.

PVP conflict and killings may seem to be the most effective methods of conflict resolution because they are a) sudden and noticeable, and b) they yield immediately results.  However, the tremendous downside is that they create a tremendous amount of blowback!

Characters who are quick to murder and assassinate at the drop of a hat often find themselves with far more enemies than they can truly handle, and they quickly flame out and fall from grace.

Characters who know when to resort to bloodshed, and when other, more devious methods will work are often the most successful.

QuotePeople keep saying that, but it really isn't that untrue. PVP Conflict has been, to my observation, the ultimate goal and means of all 'high profile' characters. If you want to have a meaningful impact on the server you need to be good at game mechanics and good at PVP. This has been expressed openly to me by several longtime players.

I doubt it. Any time the discussion comes up you log out of IRC in a rage and refuse to listen. -Conflict- is a primary source of entertainment and fun and you even succeeded in creating it on Annette. Conflict comes in countless forums and is almost always entertaining to everyone involved (even if the end result is not, that's hard to always do). We are not playing a campaign where everyone is aligned and you have to understand that opposing forces must challenge one another to succeed in the long run.
 

QuotePeaceful solutions don't result in faction promotion or respect, and while they can garner DM attention they don't garner nearly as much as PVP - admittedly this is probably partly because DM's are -required- to oversee pvp, meaning this is by in large the majority of what they have time to see when they're not hunting bugs, helping players, or running quests.

This is simply not true. The result is the success and you can be rewarded for it whether you obtain it by peaceful words, pvp, trickery, or whatever else. Sometimes PvP is the means to achieve the goal and sometimes it is not, and no matter what it can be avoided at most times if you actually try to do so and it is fitting for your character to do so. Remember that we are playing "above average" heroes, adventurers, explorers, clerics, and whatever else here. We are -not- playing the commoner or the average person of whatever town, and thus our actions in any category are often more extreme or prominent than typical.
 

QuoteI have been out and out told by long time players that this game is about winning, and that people who don't understand the mechanics of making a good PVP character are doomed to failure and DESERVE to fail because the games been out so long that everyone should really know what they're doing by this point.

You were told that the game is about enjoyment and fun. It's about a story and progressing that story according to your character's goals. You were also told that refusing to learn and choosing to remain fully ignorant (once again, a choice) of even basic mechanics will cost you heavily. Your choice was to fully relate it to PvP when it truly relates to the entire game in a way.

  I found it far more entertaining to -easily- demolish scripted quests while providing flavor through emotes and other RP along the way than to press through it in silence struggling to survive. I find other people capable of doing this, whether they slow things down or not, to be far more enjoyable as well. The same can be said for DM events and whatever else. Having a bit of confidence in your ability to portray your character's actual power is wonderful in so many ways.

QuoteIf an IC conflict doesn't exist, an exscuse will be made and it will be created to validate the PVP activity. Usually this will occur after a PC has reached lvl 8 or higher and has some DM loot and good kit, for good measure.
 
Yes, I am aware this all sounds somewhat bitter and inb4 "cry some more loser" trolling, btw - and rest assured I am indeed somewhat bitter, but not angry or indignant. It just seems to be the way things are.

Once again, this is completely untrue. You are fully relating the story to PvP rather than the conflict at hand. You are also speaking as a person who has been fully reactive in nature and forced yourself to -react- to what happens rather than initiate and perhaps change the actions, behavior, or result of your rivals and the story.

You played a great character, a powerful cleric of Chauntea who had many chances and took many others to oppose "evil" or opposing forces. In the end however, you did not pursue that conflict and hid behind a veil of protection that is offered by existing state of things. The end result was thus more extreme and perhaps ruthless than it ever needed to be, and yet it was all decided upon by your (rather prominent) character's decisions.

I would highly suggest that you spend a little bit of time simply learning the game you spend probably every day playing, and furthermore suggest that you take some time to understand the countless possibilities that could have been beyond what came to be. Without sounding like my own character too much here, what I'm saying is that you should really try and understand the situation from other angles and understand the choices that were made to reveal the end. Hire people, form groups, do what you did and expand upon it further and truly oppose your rivals in many ways. You'll find that it's pretty easy to shut people (characters) down in almost any way you wish to (pvp, words, reputation, faith,).

PvP influences EfU a great deal, perhaps it even influences it the most, but it doesn't even account for half of it. A lot of the "problem," if there is one, is the shoot first mentality. "Gank them before they can gank you," so to speak. Thus people are quick to PvP more than to diplomacy at times.

Just a bit of advice.. I hope it helps:
-In regards to FD kills, think to yourself "Why should I let this person live?" rather than "Why shouldn't I let this person live?" Work out a plan for what you'll do with the person BEFORE the PvP even begins, if possible.
-Don't be afraid to PvP, the last thing we need (in my opinion) is carebearism, where people are afraid of stepping on other's toes OOC'ly though IC conflict. But don't be too eager to jump to it.
-Don't focus on the outcome of anything, be it a fight, a quest, a plot, or even simply your character. Have fun killing the orcs, not looting them afterward.
-Avoid doing everything in YOUR power to 'win.' Do everything in your character's power, but never everything in your power. An example of this is letting your character have a weakness, dropping hints of your evil master plan that your character would rather not have known.
-You don't change the world all at once. You change it one person at a time. Focus on other PC's, not on DM support. Consider how many dozens of active players we have right now, and compare that to how many DM's there are. Generally there's only 1-3 DM's on when things are good, and about 30-40 or even up to 50 players. DM attention is unlikely at best, so focus on doing stuff with other players without having to rely on DM attention to advance something.

Pushing forward a plot is tough (at least, for me and likely you, too), and it's tough to gauge how much others like what you're doing or how much progress you're making. The best you can do (or at least, what I try hard to do for my plots) is keep working at it, and work on giving any PC's trying to help you good rewards in gold and loot, and keep things exciting.

Yes. This is why all the Drows died. Because PvP matters. It certainly worked out great for them!

* * *

This is why the person that is currently 'succeeding' the Drow Plot is doing so without PvP'ing anyone.

* * *

I just pointed out one instance where PvP turned disastrous. One instance where no PvP/diplomacy is yielding/yielded impressive results. There are tons of those.

You're assuming that great characters are great because they win PvP, which couldn't be farther from the truth. I always am moderately annoyed by characters who are to 'win' it, and toss aside courtesy/roleplay, whether it's by metagaming someone's identity, assuming every animal you see with a unique name are lycanthropes/druids, or just abusing their level, subrace or some mechanic of the gameworld.

Hell, I'll point out an even bigger rebuttal to your point. RWG, the guy is as clumsy as it gets for NWN mechanics (sorry dude, it's true), couldn't care less about them, yet he enjoys moderate levels of success with a lot of his PCs. There are tons of people like that, with good ideas/creativity that 'get' it, but aren't after building the most optimized PvP crusher character.

* * *

Yes, you're right. I could build a character, level up. Get some supplies. And likely assassinate anyone that is a public figure in the middle of town. I could probably assassinate the next mayor. Wow. Would that make character said character a winner?! NO. It wouldn't. That character would be labelled a Kodax, i.e. a joke about a half-orc that had no personality, but a powerbuild, an axe, and managed to permakill two great/important PCs in early EFU.

* * *

Anyway, I feel your topic title is misleading. Matters for what? For enjoying EFU? For doing changes to the gameworld? For Politics? For winning plots? For getting DM attention?

PvP matters only for winning PvP, which in some situation is great when the battle is exciting and both sides are thrilled, and some situation is rather bland and dull. It is hit or miss, and should be used in the idea of seeding good PvP Karma, always with the story in mind rather than 'winning'.

Oh, and another rebuttal is that most of the current DMs (DangerousDan,Snoteye,Iron_Oligarch, AKMatt, DeputyCool,etc.) aren't PvP Powerhouse and never were. In fact, I'd argue most of them couldn't care less about it, yet all managed to play interesting PCs over the years.

But do go on with your beliefs.

Well, all of them but Iron_Oligarch did.

He learned at the end, but for a large part of his career, he was pretty bad (Sorry I_O, it's true)!

PvP can be fun and interesting every once in a while, but truly it is never good to make a character built around it.
You don't need to perma unless you have to. I myself perfer characters with unique personalities and truly, I have not been powerquesting or done PvP for quite some time!

This notion that PvP is the crux of everything on EFU really just annoys me, and as Mort said couldn't be farther from the truth. This poisonous idea (really, I mean this; airing this sort of false assertion in public can potentially drive new players away and/or infect the minds of other players) is not in the least reflective of EFU at all, and ultimately is derived from a disconnect with reality born of a player's limited appreciation of the nuances of any given situation.

What I mean to say is, a player's perception is 9/10 times limited at best. They do not see any of the secret roleplay that may occur between other characters, they do not see the plans or know the true alignment or goals of another PC, they don't see the secret or faction forums of the PC and what notes they contain, they don't know or any NPC-PC relations that might influence things...they can only -guess-. Even in some 'clear cut' cases, players have been so very wrong in their assumptions.

So if you walk past some group being waylaid by a druid and he slaughters a few of them, don't just ASSUME that it was a brutal gank with no prior roleplay or non-PvP conflict leading up to it. This is EFU, and if anything, you should assume that there was a great deal of fitting RP leading to the PvP. That would be a much safer bet, and would save you the trouble of writing flailing, bombastic and essentially erroneous posts about the nature of PvP and EFU.

Peaceful objectives can get attention, but they have to be interesting for other PCs. Give them danger, responsibility, a chance to earn money, respect, secrets. RwG and I_O are masters at this sort of thing, talk to them. No matter what your PC is, you need to know what their best weapon is and use it. It might be a greataxe or Numerous Fireballs, but equally it could be words, allies, stealth or information. I wasn't opposing you so I can't comment, but you didn't seem to have sneaky allies feeding you information or goons chasing down your more violent enemies. One of my favourite periods of EFU:A was playing a lieutenant to Viordai Antalinov. He'd send me off to spy on the Banite temple, gather the rare resources for his alchemy or uncover the mole in our organisation. Importantly he'd reward my PC for it with pay, equipment and trust. It helps to secure loyalty with more than "Same alignment or goals, let's be BFFs".

If you want to work on peaceful stuff, find a way to "sprinkle some crush on it" to attract players like VP. Find some deliberately dangerous goals and use them to attract the players that want a challenge. Assign them to that project. For example, there are lots of corrupted plant monsters. Perhaps you could have paid a bounty for the first PC to kill (and screeny) the death of one of each type of monster, and written up dissection notes. Then tried to create your own plant monsters as guardians. Find some commercial or espionage goals, attract those sort of PCs. Most importantly, find short term goals that don't need DMs but do show your efforts. You might want to make a temple but that requires a lot of money and it's of no interest to anyone but you unless you get PCs involved. Take Mororn, he has a big long term goal but also takes every opportunity for short term charity and healing anyone injured. Or look at Caddies' clerics with all their doomsaying and sermons.

Something you should take away from time spent playing Anette though. She was stronger than you thought, and a little time  spent on mechanics and money spent on gear would have given you more combat options. Low STR but 18 WIS means an offense spell is deadly. There is no such thing as a "PVP character" or an "RP character", there are only "characters". Sometimes these characters scheme, sometimes they fight each other or mobs. Deliberately choosing at every point to be weak in combat doesn't make your PC a "better RPer" for it, though it can suit extremely pacifistic PCs if you don't mind the consequences. That is in my mind as destructive an assumption as the idea that you must play a powerbuild to succeed in fights as it perpetuates the idea that there is an' RP EfU' and a an 'Arena EfU'.

The first thing i'd like to do is apologize for how inflammatory my initial post came off. I would also like to thank people for some of their longer posts, particularly TakenbyVisions, and the articulate way they presented themselves.
 
Much of what has been said, I will conceed, is true, and I was incorrect in saying PVP is the most important part of EFU. But there are some niggling points I'd want to bring up.
 

QuoteI doubt it. Any time the discussion comes up you log out of IRC in a rage and
refuse to listen.

Part of my frustration may lay in my, frankly, perhaps less than wise choice to often be on IRC because I enjoy the sometimes witty company there. But if things on IRC were expressed half as well as they were on the forums, we might not be having this thread. The reason I 'log out in a rage' is because discussions there are often ridiculing, trolling, and sometimes I feel at least a little insulting.
 
I can appreciate that most if not all of it is just braggadicio and injoking, and I know you need a thick skin on the internet, but some days- that discussion inparticular, it is just too much. I don't need to be told I don't know how to play simply because I never had the NEED to master mechanics to such a degree. I pointed that out saying that 'most people who play NWN never really need to master mechanics', and the response I recieved was "I read that as 'most people who play nwn are idiots who can't figure out how to play a 5 year old game'." Then some backpatting about how people are scrubs and need to l2play followed and I thought it was best just to log off and avoid the conversation entirely, whatever may have come up after I left.
 

QuoteThis notion that PvP is the crux of everything on EFU really just annoys me, and as Mort said couldn't be farther from the truth. This poisonous idea (really, I mean this; airing this sort of false assertion in public can potentially drive new players away and/or infect the minds of other players) is not in the least reflective of EFU at all, and ultimately is derived from a disconnect with reality born of a player's limited appreciation of the nuances of any given situation.

But directly above your post is a quote by egon, saying
 

It's not just a fallacious fringe idea. It's a black undercurrant i've felt expressed, usually in joking terms, by players who've been around far longer than I have.
 

QuoteYou played a great character, a powerful cleric of Chauntea who had many chances and took many others to oppose "evil" or opposing forces. In the end however, you did not pursue that conflict and hid behind a veil of protection that is offered by existing state of things. The end result was thus more extreme and perhaps ruthless than it ever needed to be, and yet it was all decided upon by your (rather prominent) character's decisions.

I never really felt Anette was a success. Maybe thats just me, and my own neurosis. I felt she had finally come started to together and was able to indirectly influence a large number of people, though she never had any directy influence over more than one or two people at any time- she was never the leader I tried to make her, not in a direct capacity anyway, though she was just on the cusp of it when she died. But this post wasn't about Anette. The death was slightly suprising but it wasn't shitty- I fail to see what her living in town had to do with anything, though. I don't really take what your meaning, there.
------
 
Anyway the reason this mess of a thread even came up was partly, in a more recent character, Nick. I made him just to do...something,  and alot about him right down to his low Charisma and alignment was, aside from being an intrinsic part of his backround (because it is) was also a way to step out of my generalities- I wanted to play a character without the pressure to oppose evil, or the pressure to be opposed by good, one who would largely not care about political or materialistic concerns- someone more interested in their own personal and spiritual journey than any conflict going on around him.
 
Then. Numishgat, Bonescreechs exceedingly well played monk informed him that he's going to go around beating up every monk who doesn't proscribe to his philosophy and take their lunch money.
 
Bonescreech is a great player, not dissing him or Numishghat in anyway, but it struck a nerve of irritation to me. The conflict seemed senseless from my (likly unimformed) perspective, something brought on because a character had reached an apex point in their development and the player was looking for something new to do with them. This is an impulse I can understand and perhaps a natural progression of a character journey. But since I had intended the character to largely be a break and (somewhat ironically considering his behavior) relaxing, it irritated me more then it should have, leading to my increasingly erratic play the last few days.

I really love this server. I am so glad it's free of so much of the stupid bullshit that has plagued every server i've played on since I first started playing NWN years ago. But i've always been better at the pnp 'cooperative party' structure than interpersonal conflict. Overcoming challenges with others is what appeals to me, and i've done my best to try and express that in my characters, never really succeeding to my own satisfaction.

It's true, Bonescreech will whip you up and down and take your lunch money in-character, but he'll do it after painfully writing a pretty cool application and trying his darnedest to bring some unique angle of conflict to the table.

Peace and love, everyone.

Dude, that quote of mine is a joke from IRC about how EfU is different to what most people see as "sandbox" games. It's meant to be absurdly overblown.

As for Numisghat, that sounds like fairly interesting conflict. He's not trying to destroy you, the PC's only attempting to bully you into joining his faction and having a plot. That doesn't give you any permanent setbacks. You could attempt to turn all other monks against him, report him to the Muster, con him into attacking you openly and facing IC repercussions. Or you could join him to learn to be a tougher monk and maybe pick up some PVP tips ICly. Or, stay relaxed, pretend to do things his way and just wait for the PC to die before spitting on his grave. Several of my PCs have played nice with PCs they hated to avoid direct conflict, while running huge amounts of weaponry and info to their enemies :D.

Not directly on topic, but related.  I think less PVP would end in full damage kills if people would show a little fear.  It is frustrating to beat someone's head in and then they laugh at you about it.  I am not going to name names or even hint at names.

Why does no one cower for their life?  Why does no one beg?  Why does no one cry and agree to do whatever the person who has beaten them to a bloody pulp and is about to cut their head off, asks of them?

Does everyone always have to be Super McBadass all of the time?

It does happen, I am sure, but i've never seen it.  Every time I've been on the "winning" side of a PVP scenario, the person has mouthed off and refused to be submissive.  This irks me.

When you beat someone up and their response is to spit out blood, laugh and vow revenge...

(http://mondaymorningclacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/March-to-Keep-Fear-Alive_1284724889328.jpeg)

I have never used PvP as a way to succeed. I'm sure it's possible, but generally speaking... It bores me. I've hand plenty of skirmishes and plenty more epic adventures. If you cannot beat someone, run faster. It's a surprisingly effective tactic so long as you're not running into a dead end.

Me not winning PvP unless I have a whole army behind me can say that PvP hasn't got me anywhere but dead. But Death, as its stated over and over again is a huge part of this server, and should be treated as such. So I think that PvPing is great fun in the respect that it influences some things, but as long as you have fun doing whatever you want to do, and expect death, nothing to be upset about.

Reach for the stars and hit the moon, and... well die..

Bonescreech's Monk sounds fucking awesome.

PvP is a way of life on efu, if you refuse to acknowledge that you're doing yourself a disservice. Not everythign has to end in PvP, but a lot of stuff does! Thats because its not like the real world, in ye olde times, if someone rocked your boat you took them down.

Throwing toys out the pram because you dislike PvP is a silly way to go about it. RwG hates pvp cause he looses all the time. (but when he does win he gets overjoyed) PvP is fun, EfU is fun, conflict is going to happen. It's better to accept it and move on, stay away from high conflict pc's if you don't like it.

I'd add that being good at mechanics and winning pvp doesn't necessarily make you a good/esteemed player/pc.

PvP is a mean to get somewhere, not a goal in itself. Making a good storytelling and community friendly pvp is actually hard.

If you crush people on your way with no regards for what they are trying to do, you're not "winning". If your pvps are the routine potion contests or powerbuilt or always waiting to be on the advantagous side, you're not "winning".

I'd add that winning a pvp is not that hard. Even I manage it once in a while, the rare times I actually pvp. And hells, I'm such a noob I manage to cast speed on my opponent and hold person on my allies.

Winnin a fight once in a while is not that hard. But being a good loser of pvp is much harder. A good loser brings a lot to storytelling and overall fun.

Being good at pvp makes you noticeable, but don't confuse being noticeable with being admired, if that's what you're after.

Quote from: Letsplayforfun;249965Being good at pvp makes you noticeable, but don't confuse being noticeable with being admired, if that's what you're after.

A very important statement, in my opinion. I like to think of it this way, it's like sports highlights...the big, flashy plays make the highlight reel, but the stifling defense that actually won the game didn't.

PvP is the easiest and quickest way for your PC to gain a name, but it really doesn't mean that character has accomplished a lot, really. That's not to say some don't, but it's certainly not the only way to.

I'm horrible at PvP, and I'd like to think some of my PCs have accomplished a bit. I'd also like to think that they're entertaining to be around, which to me is the most important thing since we play this game for fun. Achievement in a fantasy world is just that, fantasy.

The signature is a joke but truly it is about conflicts and plots rather than utter pvp.

It's like a football line that is under appreciated to the "all-star" skill players.

While i enjoy PvM far more than PvP, PvP is an exelent way of creating a storyline between two PCs of oposing factions when apropiate. However FD PvP generally sucks imo. Now, the real problem, i think, is beautifully expressed here:

Quote from: Barber;249940It is frustrating to beat someone's head in and then they laugh at you about it.  I am not going to name names or even hint at names.

When you beat someone up and their response is to spit out blood, laugh and vow revenge...

Want to gain an edge over a PC? To "defeat" him? It's not posible. Players will make a terrible, Terrible and unreal "badass" roleplay.

• You can't scare away somone from meddling in your plans, he'll just come back with help.
• You can't force somone into your service. He'll abuse NPC presence and times when your PC is logged off to betray you, no exception.
• You can't intimidate somone into "cooling down" and say, stop hunting or whatever, they'll do so anyway, after they've been healed and while you're offline.

And honestly, that's the playerbase's fault. Bad roleplay thanks to a "I must win!" mentality just makes non-FD PvP useless. I take it paladins and certian PCs should be able to ignore the above and do what most PCs do right now, but seriously, 80% of the PCs should be willing to do -anything- to be left alive, and be scared of their attackers.

With non-FD PvP being useless, the only real way to stop somone, or opose somone by force is to end his PC. Hence why PvP is the only thing that seems to matter among player-driven plots.

I'm sure plots with DMs involved are diferent. If i rember right, Mayor Quilby is all in for exiling, but not at all willing to execute. That is good, because it doesn't mean that if your PC gets caught you'll have to end him. On the downside, after being exiled, the only way to stop a PC from doing things is to FD it. And that sucks. But again, that's the player's fault.

IMO next time you are subdued, act as if you were the PC: Beg for your life and cry for mercy, like you'd do irl. If offered the chance to live in exchange for service, take it or ask the PC to FD you. If "intimadted" or "forced", step away from the plot, there will be others. If you are drafted into aiding the other PC, don't betray it the first moment you get, nor completly ignore him once you get to an NPC filled area.

If enough playrs do that, FD won't be necesary in most cases.

There are plenty of people who do react ICly to threats, intimidation, etc.

Unfortunately, there aren't as many as would be preferable!  You can usually recognize them as the players who are more interested in creating flavor and atmosphere than rubbing your face in the dirt!

After over a year on EFU, I have a list of players who i have learned just wont do what they promise and will come back a day later with a FD gank squad. You slowly learn who is best to build conflict with, and who is best just killing/avoiding.

I may be new here.. Yet I would imagine that since you run into this problem anywhere in the gaming world to a lesser or larger degree, that I can say my piece.
 
Sure, there are certainly people who feel ooc offended by being bullied, and feel they lose face when they lose IG. Or simply dont want to lose, and therefore will not act "realisticly" to a direct threat.
 
Yet, I would say, it entirely depends on what you ask, or how you go about your threat.
 
If Robert the Militia man investigated Mikey of Mask the Mighty thief, and Robert was caught by the Mask gang.
 
If asked "You are going to give us your keys, and you are then gonna help us get inside your organization HQ, so we can kill your boss and take over the world, MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!"
 
Chances of spit in face and the throwing of broken teeth at you are rather high.
 
If all you ask is "Now, Mr Robert. You have seen what we can do. Do you really want to die... Or shall we depart as the best of chums, hmm? I let you live... and you stop looking into my business. And, perhaps one of these days, I am going to stop by, with a small favor. Nothing big... I hope you wont refuse."
 
If you then drop, say, a few hundred gold pieces into Roberts hand, and part ways...
 
I imagine chances of success would be alot higher.

How many times a year do we need a thread for this? It is always a miasma of misinformation sprinkled with a few gems whenever it appears. Lock this garbage.

PvP is not the only thing that matters.  However conflict/pvp are what makes a game or anything interesting and fun imo.  I personally would be bored to tears by a game solely based on sitting around a table talking about the construction of a new barn.  This is a fantasy game filled with enemies and good/evil.  People are bound to come into conflict due to opposing views and sides, so yes pvp is important but it's not the only thing that matters.

Quote from: Barber;249940Why does no one cower for their life?  Why does no one beg?  Why does no one cry and agree to do whatever the person who has beaten them to a bloody pulp and is about to cut their head off, asks of them?

Does everyone always have to be Super McBadass all of the time?

It does happen, I am sure, but i've never seen it.  Every time I've been on the "winning" side of a PVP scenario, the person has mouthed off and refused to be submissive.  This irks me.

While I think this horse is very nearly dead, I'd like to add one thing along these lines.

It seems hard enough to get PCs to submit via PvP, it is even -harder- to get them to submit / change their minds / switch sides via diplomatic means. A good persuade check rarely seems to go a long way.

I too am a person that tends to avoid PvP, a) because I'm bad at it, but also b) it very rarely seems something my character would do in-character. Its an aspect of my non-violent personality that carries over into the stories I tell through my characters. Even my neutral characters tend to have Good tendencies.

I guess my point is, we all as players could do with being a bit more open minded to being co-operative in our story telling. Whether we use PvP, underhanded tactics and manipulation, or good-hearted diplomacy to generate/resolve conflict - they all require other players to at least sometimes allow their PC to be changed by it.

I really think things like this aren't a complaint because they don't like the PvP on EfU, but a complaint because they're not winning. You can very, very, very easily never get involved in PvP and if you don't like it, just don't do it!

That being said, there is a level of EfU open to people who take risks; and this isn't just about conflict but about doing DM quests, exploring the server and doing things because your character would even if it's not a good idea, and the reason these things are rewarded is because EfU is at its heart a game based upon risk; it's made to be a challenge, it's made to push you and it's never advertised itself as anything but that, from the death system to the impossibility of travelling around alone!

So if you don't like the heat, get out of the fire. It's really very simple and I don't mean it rudely; EfU is like gambling, it's like life, it's not a game with guaranteed outcome. If you want a definite win, if you don't want the possibility of losing everything, then play WoW or Dragon Age or something else!

Finally, avoiding Druid ganks is the easiest thing in the world; don't be a Necromancer.

Not playing a necromancer is indeed a good way to avoid Druidic gank squads. :P

EFU is what you make it. To me it's a fun little stage to get creative ideas out, have some fun with different character types, cause some mischief, and move on to the next. As Mort said I suck at PvP. But that's okay. Because PvP is just a tool.

Yet PvP is -only- a tool that is avoided or embraced. There's not much middle ground. I'll be honest: the "lol Imma beat people up on the roads and take their gear" is as old as Underdark itself on EFU. Get some levels, get some gear, cause some mischief, gather some potions, and brawl. Yet if that is all people do, they die that way quick. Either get more reckless or a gank comes or what have you. "Win"? No. Usually folks like that are forgotten easily enough.

PvP is a means to an end. Kidnapping a PC is infinitely more epic than just ambush for potions. Yet there's a problem: EFU doesn't stop once PvP starts unless one man is left standing. Shouting "Stop or she dies" while standing over a subdued PC just means "QUICK GET HIM BEFORE HE CAN SWITCH MODES" But A Kidnapper who successfully gets a ransom for a PC is either going to get his teeth kicked in or live to get his teeth kicked in another day. It has a lasting effect on a PC, on a PC's friends, and more, and usually everyone walks away alive.

Yet the end is "Conflict", and as someone who survived a kidnapping and the kidnapper didn't because of a giant squad, conflict was greatly had.

Sure it's fun to PvP and win, but sometimes it's fun to PvP and lose. The rebel spitting in the face of the guard before his head cut off, the paladin courageously facing down 5 evil PCs and shouting to his god before his sacrifice, etc.

All adds to conflict. All adds to fun. All adds to EFU. PvP is just a means.

Quote from: Valo56;250134Not playing a necromancer is indeed a good way to avoid Druidic gank squads. :P

Actualy druids should only be against necromancers who summon undead or use undead in any capacity. Other than that they likely should have nothing wrong with one who casts fear spells, or uses negative energy over other magics. Negative energy is the balance of positive energy.

I am very, very pleased to have read what I did so far in this thread as it is so enlightening, it even opens your eyes to some of the aspects of EfU that you often overlook.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In my opinion, PvP is a tool (as stated by RwG) & a very useful tool, but is most often the least rewarding tool to use from the rather infinite amount at your disposal.

A lot of people that play upon EfU see the PCs like Dagmer Rus, Karida Intisar, Caius Drayden, etc, that constantly destroy people in PvP, but what they don't see is the RP behind the scenes, the footwork to make them ascend up the ladder.

An event I will always remember was a duel between Karida & Rumpclaw, in which both agreed would not be to the death. The duel was close, but though they both wanted to kill eachother, they didn't. They left it at that. It was heart-pounding, it was entertaining to watch, it was flashy, but it was flavorful & still PvP.

I love when I see RwG play such a weak PC, yet he lives (rarely) for a reasonable time, dodging his enemies, and succeeding in ways other than PvP & guess what? HE GETS RECOGNITION.

The last thing I'd like to point out is, don't always jump the gun when an enemy rises up. Yes, killing them before they reach any amount of fruition, might make you seem as though you prevailed, but allowing a long-lasting conflict & building of story is far more rewarding in the end, and far more enjoyable.

Treat your fellow players with mercy, be considerate, and more times than not, they will treat you that way in return.

DTW

Hold onto your hats, this is a long one, I talk about a lot of shit, but it's all going somewhere, trust me.


The best way to look at this is to look at it in terms of gamers, games and more specifically, the game of Neverwinter Nights.

EfU is Neverwinter Nights, and Neverwinter Nights is a game and is subject to all the other quirks and such that all other games are subject to.

Now how do most western RPG games function(We're  not including JRPGs in this)?
 Hell even the NWN singleplayer espouses the following qualities in the protagonist and therefore the player by proxy.

• Indomitability
• Me (Us) against the world.
• Mercilessness
• Kleptomania

Let us look at these things in detail.

Indomitability
__________________________________________________________________________________
RPGs are usually about a goal, something happens at the beginning of the story, and then the protagonist(s) apply themselves until they can achieve that goal. Sure there are deviances along the way (side quests) but these deviances always return to the main line of progression. And there is no going back! If you die at the boss. You start again just before the boss, and you fight the boss again and again until you kill him. For all the "big world" claims a lot of games make, there is still a very linear undertone. This mentality applied to EfU is of course what can lead to a PvP loser going away buffing up like crazy and coming back for round 2 instantly. This is also what leads to the majority of PvPs hitting FD so early, because people are worried that if they don't kill this person, he'll come back and kill them 10 minutes later. NWN as a game engine even espouses this by letting a player who has just been beat the fuck down get up and run like a champ, or ingest several gallons of potion and being ready to pwn.

 But tantamount to that, it is natural for players to be in the same linear mindset when it comes to their characters, they set their goal and see any deviance from that goal as essentially "game over" if something stands in the path of their goal it is to be knocked over without pausing to acknowledge, appreciate or interact with it. This again is natural as RPGs never give you the option "Would you like to to try and reason with this opponent".

What does this have to do with EfU?: Well instantly here is one of the problems, we are playing a linear genre, on a linear game, in a linear engine. Yet we are trying to play one of the least linear games possible, players that see an obstacle in their path feel that the only option is to butt against it over and over again until that obstacle is gone, maybe you can walk around it, go over it, go under it, or even take a different direction. There is no single goal, there is just the journey. Hell, you may find something cooler.

Me (Us) against the world.
__________________________________________________________________________________
 You have to remember here, that the NWN engine was never built with the MMORPG construct in mind. In normal RPGs there are usually a healthy number of NPCs dotted around a world, as with such numbers there isn't a chance in hell of developing and understanding full backgrounds and motivations for all those NPCs, so instead they are broken down into 3 types of character you interact with.

• People who exist to further your cause
• People who are just there for the sake of it
• People who exist to hinder your cause[/i]
  

This leads to a very closed mindset and trains players to only define other people in their gaming world in terms of use to the furthering of their own cause. Psychologically it is a very small step to apply exactly the same standards to all the other players in the server. You quickly single out those that are on your side and are to be quested with and supported, and those that are to be destroyed without a consideration as to why they are that way. The shallowness of NPCs in this way causes you to look at all NPCs in the same manner. The antagonist has one purpose, and that purpose is to fuck you over. The farmer has one purpose, and that purpose is to give you a quest. The Yokel has one purpose and that is to provide comic relief when you talk to him.

This leads to a lot of instances of

a) People with false pretenses pretending to be on your side and never EVER being called on it because all the player sees is someone with an ALLY sticker on their forhead and that is all they need to know.  
b) People who appear evil but have dark secrets that will develop as they develop getting FD'd early because players see "Bad guy. Stomp Bad guy"


What does this have to do with EfU?: In EfU NPCs are everywhere, so are real people. There are purposes to them in terms other than those that relate to you. This Black and White help me or hinder me attitude in EfU leads to people making Nemesis and Blood Brothers at the drop of a hat. They go on one quest and from then on they would die for eachother. You have one showdown and now that person is your friggin' nemesis and they MUST. BE. DESTROYED. Where on reflection that person may be in it for the money the same as you, and that person is just an asshole. One altercation is not a good reason for a blood feud. The school bully gives you a swollen lip, do you go in the next day and shank him?
 Conflict and Teamwork comes in all shapes and sizes, not just HUGE.


Mercilessness
__________________________________________________________________________________
This sort of follows on from Indomitability, western RPGs are all about peaks and troughs. Building up to a climax, having that climax and then beginning the build up to a bigger one. How often do we see in RPGs (and films for that matter) where our dashing hero lets an antagonist live, and then 5 minutes later, the antagonist comes back and fucks him in the ass for his mercy. But this is because following the two things we have already discussed, the following things are expected about the antagonist.

• His only purpose in any way shape or form is to fuck you over.
• The same indomitability is expected of him as of the player, so if he fails and you let him live, he's coming at you again.

This usually means that the only option expected by the game is one that results in the antagonist being neutralised either now, or later when he tries again (I say neutralised as opposed to killed because it could be through any means, in jail, turned to stone, whatever... he has been removed from the story for the duration of the game). This leads to a lot of FDs in game because an FD is solving your problem forever. But you are cutting down a possibility of real story, you see something green sprouting through the soil. Do you pull it assuming it's a weed, or do you wait to see if it becomes a sweet ass flower?

What does this have to do with EfU?: The ending of the life of another is a pretty fucking big deal. How often do you kill someone? In EfU we have the benefit of having a very solid line drawn between monsters and people. Even the humanoid monsters are definitely monsters. There's no gray area. Now I will argue against myself here and say "what else is there to do?".  Just damaging someone isn't really effective when they're one potion from being able to walk off like it never happened, this is again another effect of playing within an engine focused on the Us Vs the World mentality (See above). But with help, there ARE ways, and until you explore them, you won't know what they are, but you'll be a much more interesting and vibrant roleplayer for it regardless.

Kleptomania
__________________________________________________________________________________

For those who don't know, Kleptomania is a psychological urge to fucking steal everything.

 It's the ever present joke in game and is here because it is basically the summation of the previous 4 things put together. In Western RPGs it is just the done thing to go into people houses and take all their shit. You go through their chests, you smash their pots, you help yourself to their tablewear you take the shirt off of their back, either for your own use or to sell.
 This is a classic example of the western RPG player who by doing it has made the following assumptions:

• My goal is important and I need this stuff more than they do
• This person exists to make my life easier, therefore their stuff is mine
• I'll take everything, because the more I can sell/use the more I can succeed

This is a reflection of the linear goal orientated application of choice encouraged by the western RPG and the shallow nature of expected of other denziens in the game world.

What does this have to do with EfU?: This rears it's head ingame in the form of "drylooting" a frowned upon practice of taking a fallen foe and taking EVERYTHING he has in his pack. The thought process that leads to dry looting is an acute form of the thought process that leads to Crass PvP.

This fallen person has stuff -> His value for it is irrelevant to the 5 gold I'll be able to sell it for -> I will take everything

The same attitude can lead to gross overreactions to small problems because logically the biggest reaction will solve the problem the quickest, but it also makes for a flat and boring landscape of character emotion that just comes across and melodramatic and immature.


Ok fuck this, bored of writing. Most of it is bullshit, but if someone finds some meaning it it, let me know so I can look like I know what I'm talking about.

Peace Out.

Best post I have read on a roleplaying game forum in... a long long long time.

PvP is the only thing that matters if you make yourself believe that. Conflict is a part of it, yes, like of any story. But if you keep on telling yourself that you'll get PvPed or killed, you will drift towards that mindset and be unhappy. Best to just simmer down.

I like these posts, because everyone who isn't good at PvP outs themselves and I can put them on my 'People to Gank' list :P

I keed!

I'd write something relevant and meaningful, but as I'm late to this party, I don't want to restart any actual debating, just my random little joke thurr.

I'll be back from my summer training in a few days.

Stay hot, EfU!

Quote from: Cluckyx;250315For those who don't know, Kleptomania is a psychological urge to fucking steal everything.

It's the ever present joke in game and is here because it is basically the summation of the previous 4 things put together. In Western RPGs it is just the done thing to go into people houses and take all their shit. You go through their chests, you smash their pots, you help yourself to their tablewear you take the shirt off of their back, either for your own use or to sell.

Excellent post, Cluckyx. I enjoyed it. And some good posts elsewhere regarding the place for PvP as a story telling tool rather than purely a means of competition or test of skill.

About ingame conflict:

As I see it, 'conflict' does not equate to 'PvP'. There are many ways of establishing conflict. Conflict can be an argument in the tavern. It can be about who is the best in a given craft. It can be about trying to establish a trade monopoly and getting confronted with someone who refuses to play. It can be harsh public exchanges between two important political figures from different factions. It can be Aberdenn and Caermyn competing to see who can bring in the most deer meat in a single day, or who can catch the biggest fish. It can be all sorts of things that never involve a drawn weapon or a hand raised in anger. And while they sometimes produce PvP, it will often be either a mere roadsign on the way or even anticlimactic if someone dies in the middle of a good conflict.

I personally usually avoid PvP. My current character Rook Thornwood is an exception. And even she doesn't kill her defeated enemies under normal circumstances. The IC excuse is that she just isn't mean enough for that, the OOC reason is... it helps conflict of the kind I mentioned above if the enemy gets to stay alive. And most importantly of all, her defeated enemy gets to live and have fun again at a later time.


About 'succeeding' as a character:

As I see it, you have success with your character if you enjoy playing it. Even if DMs seem to utterly ignore you. That doesn't necessarily mean that they hate you, it just means that your way of having fun is so quiet and simple that it is almost overkill to use DM time on it. If you have a grand time roleplaying around the card table or walking in the woods, great! But do you really need a DM to spawn half a dozen exploding pigs on your game of cards for it to be exciting enough? >.>


About goals and DM attention:

Again, this is how I see it: If you are making a goal in the hopes of getting DM attention for it, you are already a good part of the way to disappointment. Far better to make one you yourself can have fun with, and if it is something you can involve other players in, great! It doesn't have to be a big goal, it doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to be fun. And in the end, you don't even have to succeed -- you just need to have fun on the way.

Examples:

1) Pay Off the Dominion's Debt and End The Famine. Totally unrealistic for just one character. But I had a grand old time accumulating gold and then dumping all of it into the Dominion fund, as well as helping out anyone else who appeared to work towards that end. And as I carried on, I slowly made PC friends and supporters in different places. I never had a guild, coterie or anything. But I never really tried to get one and didn't want one that much either.

2) Live Free or Die. An extremely simple goal and very open ended. It led to massive amounts of friends, enemies, intrigues and nearly open war on the 'corrupt Stygians' (quotation marks to show it was the PC's point of view.) It was also the only character goal I ever achieved, I died rather than be enslaved. :)

3) Monitor That Damn Mythallar, Try To Find Out What Makes It Tick And Pray To Mystra It Doesn't Blow Up. This one I never got anyone except myself involved in and I am not sure the DMs even noticed I had it. But it was my second longest lived character and I had awesome fun roleplaying her living in constant fear of That Damn Mythallar.

4) Revise the Dominion Code of Law and Establish Magistrates Independent of Law Enforcement. Errrr... yeah. That one never got off the ground. I had barely started playing the character when the world inconveniently started to end. I still had great fun playing her, though, I managed to mutate her goal into 'Stop The World From Ending, Apocalypses Are Untidy.' I did not get much DM attention but that was OK, they were all busy with the end of the world. :)

As you can see, some of them would probably require DM attention to succeed but none of them needed DM attention just to run along. And I actually had a lot of fun even while failing!

~tOH.

Hack nailed it... Not much else can be said here.

Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;250248Karida Intisar

Actually, I'd like to give that griefer a piece of my mind...

...

Just kidding, that was without question the best PvP death I've ever had, and it should be an example to anyone who wants to go a-ganking through the Archipelago.

It was a good death because I knew it was coming, I had a chance to escape / avoid my fate (though at great cost, one that my PC was ultimately not willing to pay), and I was able to do a bit of role-play before the PC died. I've never had a bad PvP experience when all of those conditions were met.