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Main Forums => Suggestions => Topic started by: lovethesuit on July 04, 2011, 05:51:04 PM

Title: Pathfinderize Fighters
Post by: lovethesuit on July 04, 2011, 05:51:04 PM
Fighter. As a class, it seems like nothing special. When others have skills to use, spells to cast, or the ability to activate wands, Fighters literally rely on nothing more than manliness and equipment. Typically used as a multiclass with others like Bard, Rogue, or Cleric, the straight Fighter has nothing that makes it a competitive choice.

But in Pathfinder, a game released by Paizo (and colloquially known as D&D 3.75), the Fighter class is given a few unique class abilities that reward the person who stays in the class. They don't change the class to be more like a caster; instead, they simply boost what the Fighter already does: fight.

The first example is called Bravery: "Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd." Fighters walk into a world of dragons and other monsters with literally no magic or special skills. You'd need to be brave as hell to do that. This class ability is the earliest available, and helps to make up for a Fighter's depressingly-low Will save in the one place it really matters.

The second example is called Armor Training: "Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1..." Fighters are a class that needs armor to survive. It stands to reason that of all the classes, they would have the best training with it. This would not be difficult to implement in EfU:M, if excessive Dex points were added as a Dodge AC bonus to the character. The penalty could also be reduced by adding +1 to those skills affected by ACP when wearing any kind of armor. Obviously, the penalty cannot loop around to become a bonus.

The third example is called Weapon Training: "Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls." Groups include Swords, Axes, Bows, Hammers, etc., and the bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels after 5th. The bonus allows a Fighter to have a higher attacking ability than other classes with their favoured weapons, but not so much that it overshadows them. It stands to reason that a Fighter, reliant on his weapon to do anything related to his class, would be one of the most proficient with it.

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Of the four Fighter-type classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger), Fighter is the only one for whom Fighting is their entire concept. Barbarians are tied to nature and have skills and Rage to make them competitive. Paladins have access to holy spells (especially Bless Weapon), turning ability, and the use of divine wands. Rangers also have spells and wands, in addition to both high BAB -and- stealth skills, not to mention Favoured Enemy.

Obviously, in a setting like EfU:M, a Fighter can be anything they want to be. Politician. Criminal. Soldier. Bodyguard. Merchant. But there is an ultimate reason why any player chooses Fighter for these concepts as opposed to Rogue or some other non-magical class; because their character Fights. Their talent and their training lies in the ability to kill or to protect. For that concept to come across, it requires a player with high mechanical proficiency, or a lot of luck. This concept will take luck out of the equation, by allowing Fighters to push just slightly ahead in the one thing they are designed for.

In a game system like NWN, with a much more limited number of feats and skills to choose from, I think implementing these changes would not only offer a great variety of Fighters to choose from, but also inspire new characters from the choices that already exist.
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Post by: TheMacPanther on July 04, 2011, 05:57:28 PM
While I am not entirely for the three you mentioned, I do think that pure fighters could use a short list of perks similar to the new rogue perks if they stay pure.
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Post by: el groso on July 04, 2011, 11:22:06 PM
Fighters need some love!
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Post by: Bearic on July 05, 2011, 12:47:16 AM
I think they're okay, myself.
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Post by: Keeper of the White Wyrm on July 05, 2011, 12:58:36 AM
Those sound like perks in and of themselves!
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Post by: CaptLars on July 05, 2011, 01:16:40 AM
Imp Exp ftw
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Post by: Wafflecone on July 05, 2011, 01:31:09 AM
Fighters do get ALOT of feats, though... Maybe something that would exemplify a fighters rigerous training to master all aspects of warfare, however.
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Post by: Howlando on July 05, 2011, 01:45:54 AM
I have to admit I do like BRAVERY, if adjusted. Pure fighters should be courageous!
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Post by: Ebok on July 05, 2011, 02:30:20 AM
I think different styles saves could be really cool, tbh. However the other two are lol nowai broken.
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Post by: lovethesuit on July 05, 2011, 03:01:15 AM
Quote from: Ebok;248515I think different styles saves could be really cool, tbh. However the other two are lol nowai broken.

Explain how those are broken.
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Post by: Black_TopHat on July 05, 2011, 03:05:47 AM
As someone who plays almost exclusively pure fighters I'm very biased to these abilites. It is tough to get by with being near dependent on mages and priests to gird your mind against fear when day in and day out you willingly charge into the teeth of whatever Big Baddy has stomped out of the Mists that day.
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Post by: Juzza on July 05, 2011, 03:15:46 AM
I love this suggestion, well done LTS!
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Post by: Kinslayer988 on July 05, 2011, 05:19:53 AM
To me not all fighters should be brave :/

EDIT: A while back we had a fighter perk thread. My imput was to have fighters take a battle style. The styles would be something like Duel Striking (bonuses while duel wielding at a cost), Guardian Stance (Shield gives extra AC) Merciless Blows (when not using a shield and not duel wielding, you gain a bonus to two handed weapons/one handed weapons as two hand), Elegant Strides (Gives Command, bonus to persuade, bluff, and intimidate. Used for political fighters)
These would be picked at a low level and for ever pure level be given bonuses.
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Post by: Takenbymadness on July 05, 2011, 07:23:06 AM
I also adore my pure fighters. Even though we are often overshadowed by buffed Bard/Fighters or Ranger/Fighters or Rogue/fighters in PvM, and by barbarians or mixed class characters in PvP, I just adore the pure fighter. While I do think some of the above abilities might be a smidgen OP, I really would like to see some cool things added for the pure fighters out there.
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Post by: TakenByVisions on July 05, 2011, 08:07:35 AM
Bravery is nice. Weapon classes or whatnot is too strong, but I do think giving a pure 8 fighter an extra AB (can simply give them epic weapon focus) wouldn't be too bad. Armor training I do not think is possible without a HAK.
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Post by: TheImpossibleDream on July 05, 2011, 10:16:05 AM
Fighters are perfectly fine. Nerf the overbuffed classes instead.
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Post by: Egon the Monkey on July 05, 2011, 11:25:26 AM
The trouble with pure fighters is that as a class all they can do is clobber something that's in front of them, and generally do it worse than other classes in EfU's setting because other classes have more class upgrades, loot and consumables access. I get the feeling we're barking up the wrong tree often with Fighter ideas. They don't lack for AB or even damage if they put their feats into it, they lack in everything else. Compare them with all the encouragements a Barbarian gets to not bother multiclassing, and the massive enhancement to their major class feature, Rage.

Rangers get wands, Paladins get wands, Barbarians get totems, Wilds loot, gear that complements their DI, all sorts of stuff. Fighters get nothing. Some equipment and consumables designed for pure fighters would go a long way.

Multiclasses tend to be taken to give access to wands, social skills, utility skills or Uncanny Dodge for finessers. The wands thing could be fixed with loot restricted to Fighters. The other skills, well how about Fighter Perks that effectively give you a free class skill? These would apply to pure Fighters only, and give you 1 rank in the chosen skill path for every 2 levels of Fighter. They would top up cross class skills to almost the same level as if they were a class skill. A Fighter would get two of these, effectively bringing him up to the 4 SP a level of Barbarians and Rangers. Rather than hardcoded skill bonuses, these would allow the class to be a lot more flexible without resorting to the old saw of "3 rogue levels"

Officer
"You have always led men, be them watchmen, thugs or soldiers. You have a way with inspiring them."
+1 Persuade per 2 Fighter levels.

Duelist
"In the field of single combat, you stand with the best. A feint here, a challenge there, and you have it all your own way."
+1 Taunt per 2 Fighter Levels.

Watchman
"You are the eyes on sentry duty, the expert patroller"
+1 Spot per 2 Fighter Levels
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Post by: Talir on July 05, 2011, 11:34:20 AM
It's not at all a bad idea or decidedly hard to implement. But the different paths, if that's what you'd like, would require something defining for them and be more than just a single point in a skill every second level.

Or that's what I think anyhow.
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Post by: Egon the Monkey on July 05, 2011, 11:48:14 AM
The idea is that Fighters would get 2 Skill Perks that would let them focus in what would otherwise be multiclass skills, and then another one that gives them some sort of novel bonus that would compare favourably to what you'd get by having Sneak Attacks, Bard Song, etc. I suppose they could always be combined. So... ton of ideas.

Officer
"You have always led men, be them watchmen, thugs or soldiers. You have a way with inspiring them."
+1 Charisma per 4 Fighter Levels
+1 Fear Saves per 3 Fighter levels
+1 Persuade per 2 Fighter levels.

Trailblazer
"Your ability to cut a path through the hard jungles of Ymph is unerring, and you are an expert at staying aware of its dangers"
Gain Tracking (Moderated by the fact you don't have any of the class skills for it or the ranger's Lore bonus to the Check)
+1 Poison Saves per 3 Fighter Levels
+1 Search per 2 Fighter levels.

Dance of Blades
"You disdain the heavy, clumsy combat of the armored knight, and prefer the swift dance of a sailor or fencer."
Gain Uncanny Dodge I, lose Heavy Armor Proficiency (Or feat disabled in heavy armor).
+1 Tumble per 3 Fighter Levels
+1 Taunt per 2 Fighter Levels

Polymath
"Your studies of combat are but one aspect among many of your quest for knowledge. You seek nothing less than perfection, and every day brings you closer"
+2 EFUSS Points per level
+1 Lore per 2 Fighter Levels

Crusader (Non-Evil Only)
"You are a bulwark of light on a dark island, a warrior sworn to hold back the tide of corruption"
+1 AB per 3 Fighter Levels vs Evil (Yes, sounds pretty strong but so is FE:Player Race)
+1 Fear Saves per 3 Fighter Levels
5% Negative DI

Grunt
"The manifest example of brawn over brains, for you muscle is always the answer to any given problem"
OOC Tool Item with the Crowbar power, to be RPed as smashing open doors/chests.
5% Physical Damage Immunity
+1 Intimidate per 2 Fighter Levels
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Post by: SanTelmo on July 05, 2011, 01:38:46 PM
I enjoy fighter class the most from the warrior classes in NWN and I often find myself playing them. Although as EFU keeps characterizing all classes and giving them class-wise benefits to stay in class (For barbarian and rogue), I think Fighter could use the same as well. It is often only beneficial to take 4 or 6 fighter class levels and then multiclass to get access to wands or other perks. I dont see EFU either offering much item benefits or other benefits to pure warriors (there are some, yes but as Egon pointed out, they are not in the same extend as for other classes).

Fighters could use something to motivate staying in fighter class and help them appear as some who dedicate their lives to disciplined fighting-style or life-style, that clearly differs from that rogues, barbarians, rangers and paladins practice. Perks similar to rogues could be useful.
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Post by: Nihm on July 05, 2011, 01:39:23 PM
I like the idea of pure fighters being more skilled with armor, shields, or weapons than the multiclasses, and being able to choose more development in one of those areas.
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Post by: The Tricksy Bird on July 05, 2011, 02:22:41 PM
Something to make fighters have a little flair past level 4 or 6 seems like it could be a good idea.
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Post by: chezcaliente on July 05, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
I like the flavour of Egon's suggestions. Pure fighter perks that give skill and/or save type bonuses to better capture your fighter's personality.
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Post by: cladwig1 on July 05, 2011, 03:39:11 PM
I play a fighter and what i have most difficult with is to find a good armor. I never seen a full plate or half-plate so far... Unless those fro sale at very high prices. It makes rangers or barbarians better because of that I think, but I dont know..
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Post by: Egon the Monkey on July 05, 2011, 04:12:03 PM
It's been a feature since we moved out of the Underdark that Medium Armor is better if you can afford the Dexterity. You can pick up a good chainshirt for a couple of hundred GP and get 8 AC out of it with 14 Dex and Grace. 9-10 if you have tumble, 11 if you get your hands on a +1 chainshirt. +1 Chainmail etc is around too, and it's all fairly cheap. On the other hand expect to pay well over 1000 for mundane Fullplate or 4000 for custom, and you won't see +1 plates outside powerful DM loot. Most factions offer some sort of magic Full Plate to members, and that's considered a significant benefit of membership.

Something I think would definitely improve Fighters would be a shoploot set of affordable mundane Full Plate such as:

Shieldwall Plate (1000 Gold Pieces)
"This plate is extremely protective but complicated in design. Only an expert warrior could make good use of this armor.
//OOC: Do not use if you are a multiclass Fighter, unless it is a Prestige Class"
8 AC
Full Plate
Only Useable by: Fighter
Quality: Masterwork.
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Post by: lovethesuit on July 05, 2011, 04:29:26 PM
I'd dip into Fighter for that, oh baby.
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Post by: Ebok on July 05, 2011, 06:57:08 PM
Guard
"Sure, guarding this door or that bridge for hours on end isn't for everyone, but you're the exception. You actually enjoy it, watching the people that pass by, knowing how to spot trouble. That's cause you're the Guard."
+1 Wisdom per 4 Fighter Levels
+1 Listen per 2 Fighter levels
+1 Spot per 2 Fighter levels.

Mage Bound
"You exist to protect or combat practitioners of the Arcane. You  have undergone thorough training/blessings/tattooing that enable you to  preform this duty."
 See Invisibility 1/day at 8th
 +1 save vs mind-effecting per 3 Fighter Levels
 +1 Spellcraft  per 2 Fighter Levels

Trailblazer (another option)
"Your ability to cut a path through the hard jungles of Ymph is unerring, and you are an expert at staying aware of its dangers"
Gain Ranger/Druid movement speed increases within wilderness areas. Even in heavy armor.
+1 Poison Saves per 3 Fighter Levels
+1 Search per 2 Fighter levels.
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Post by: meow-mix on July 05, 2011, 07:27:43 PM
These might seem OP. And they might be OP, but these would be level 8 pure fighter perks similar to rogues.
 
Mastery of Defense
You consistently have plunged into the deepest bloodshed of the fray, but unlike many others, you have returned alive.
 
- +1 dodge AC (persistent)
- 1x/day DR 20/+3 for 5 rounds.
 
Master of Single Combat
Two man enter, one man leave.
 
- 1x/day +2/+2 against a single marked target(probably target race), lasts for 10 rounds.
- 1x/day Suffer -75% movement speed, afflict target with -75% movement speed, lasts for 3 rounds (using tactics to prevent escape of single enemy).
 
Master of Command
Your presence on the field of battle strikes awe into ally and enemy alike.
 
- +5 intimidate (persistent)
- 1x/day Battletide (as clerical spell) for 8 rounds.
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Post by: Ebok on July 05, 2011, 08:59:31 PM
Meow-mix, the idea was that these would be simple save/skill things gained a little bit at a a time throughout the leveled of the character.
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Post by: meow-mix on July 05, 2011, 09:57:36 PM
Yeah, I read that.  But while that's...okay...this would be better.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on July 06, 2011, 03:39:47 AM
Straightfoward buffing would be nice, in my opinion. Fighters do seem weak when you compare them with barbarians, paladins or rangers as long as they remain pure, since fighter/rouges or fighter/bards are very strong. Since they are all about training and discipline, giving them bonuses for as long as they remain pure fighters (Representing their dedication to their training) would feel apropiate, something like:

+1 concentration per 2 fighter levels
+1 discipline per 3 fighter levels
+1 AB and Dodge AC as long as the fighter remains pure

Although they too deserve some specialized loot. Weapons that give damage bonuses that stack with magic weapon, and are usable only by fighter could be good.
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Post by: Ebok on July 07, 2011, 12:00:50 AM
Fighters are not weak. I cringe every-time I hear someone say that. Feat combination can be incredibly potent; a full buffed fighter is just about the strongest thing you can have on your team. I enjoy Egon's style of suggestion because it doesn't change their ability to crush, just adds some style and definition.
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Post by: Bearic on July 07, 2011, 12:30:42 AM
While these are neat ideas; customization and stuff is always nice - I think pure Fighters are pretty good, playing one myself.
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Post by: Kinslayer988 on July 07, 2011, 01:09:40 AM
Bearic you are not playing a fighter, you are playing the Fabled Legend Michael Tommas.