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In the real world, I think it is important to behave in a tolerant, respectful, non-racist, non-prejudicial manner. Making judgments about other people due to their ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, etc. are not good things to do.

EFU is not the real world.

The terms "racism" or "speciesism" should really not ever be used IC'ly. These are words that should not really have any meaning whatsoever in EFU and serve only to break immersion. It makes me cringe. Would a character call Trenada... a fascist?

It is incredibly easy and frankly potentially rather bland to play a character that acts as our enlightened selves, and does not incorporate a degree of realistic prejudice.

I don't think every character, or even a majority of characters, should necessarily have strong opinions about people from Chult, or Calimshan, or Thay, or Cormyr, or whatever. But it's fine and even good if they do.

But I do think it is important that a majority of characters have some kind of strong feelings and assumptions about other races (i.e. elves, dwarves, etc.).

Maybe elves are wondrous creatures to be revered and admired, or maybe they're a dangerous threat.

Maybe you respect halflings for their orderly and good-natured societies, or maybe you've met too many pesky lightfoot adventurer-thieves and distrust all of them.

And so on.

Maybe even you're playing a high-wisdom PC with a lot of experience meeting different races and inclined to judge individuals as individuals, but if so this should be a part of your concept and be somewhat rare.

In light of this post, I'd like to promote The Order of the Shining Hammer as an example of a good pc-initiative that successfully incorporates fresh, non-bland points of conflict. And although I fully expect demi-humans/nature-based PCs/druids/etc. to oppose their actions, it would be disappointing if players use our enlightened perspectives as basis to oppose their "racism" because it's "ignorant."

Know thy place, xenian!

(PS. It's "Society of the Shining Hammer", not "Order". But <3!)

PSS rip IMO. :o

Jokes aside, racist sentiments are always excellent on EFU.

You sure ignorance can't be a reason? I think it would be percectly resonable for druids to use the "ignorance" argument, maybe elves too.

It is yet another aspect of how we push ourselves to truly embrace the uniqueness of this communal story. The fact we can take on a character in a fantasy setting with its own cosmology; it is wondrous.

We should of course remember not take character conflicts -too- seriously, creating just the right amount of tension whilst not, as mentioned, breaking immersion or becoming personally involved as a player.

Druids can be racist too. Just cause they all might support a balance doesn't mean there are not heated contention or outright mistreatment among them. Spice it up, imo. Spread some hate, use sterotypes. I think it's fun when people get all up on my character's case for being fat. Helps me stay immersed.

Leave personal opinions at the door. This is fiction, and most fun if you don't drag modern opinions into the game with you. Personally, I find the further a character is from my own opinions and personality the more fun they are to play.

Burn the heretic! Kill the mutant! Purge the unclean!

(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2007/03/40Krraawwrr.jpg)

Quote from: Ebok;248392Druids can be racist too. Just cause they all might support a balance doesn't mean there are not heated contention or outright mistreatment among them. Spice it up, imo. Spread some hate, use sterotypes. I think it's fun when people get all up on my character's case for being fat. Helps me stay immersed.

Druids tend to be wiser and older than most PCs, as well as understand there is no moral hirearchy in nature seeing they understand it better than any ther PC with maybe the exception of nature rangers and natrue clerics.

I don't see how somone with this kind of knowledge could be racist, at all. Druids could hate a specific group, faction or whatever, or consider a racial type a danger, but given what i've said above, they should have a reason beyond prejudice.

Druids are probably the most isolationist groups of people in Faerun.They are suspicious of every non-druid, never to talk about druidic secrets to them. They could certainly despise / fear people from civilization, in fact, it's very easy to picture...

Not to mention, in EFU, racism is correct. There are inherent differences between racial groups. Goblins/drow/etc. are essentially always evil, but even half-orcs are inclined to more likely be violent. Elves do almost always wish to limit the spread of human civilization. And so on.

So it really depends what the character is trying to say. A truly wise druid would be aware of these inherent differences.

There are many points that could be discussed here. I think one that Howland was raising, though, is that it's possible to introduce shiny *NEW* forms of conflict/hate/strife on the server, instead of just the same old obvious (Boggs is fat, half-orcs are ugly, rogues hate Paladins, et cetera).

Anyone who reads the manifestos of the Shining Hammer Society, or talk at length with its exponents, will, I hope, quickly realize that there is infinitely more thought behind their Weltanschauung than merely "gnomes are stupid" or "druids are backwards".

It's really extremely more complicated than that, and it ties into everything else they think and do. It ranges from Tycho Welbruch's youth in Hillsfar during Maalthiir's revolution, to the history of Rufus Descreza's ancestors in Amn, to the problems of expansion into the Chondalwood during the early 14th century, to the persecution of druids in Turmish during the 1350s, to the theological disputes on Lantan following the Time of Troubles, even to the design of the specific machines and engineering solutions that are being developed in Faerûn in the 1370s. And, of course, good old-fashioned, natural xenophobia, the same that has Elves, in their own language, calling themselves "The People" and everyone else "Not of the People".

Finally, it may surprise some to learn that this aspect of the Society's worldview - their "racism / speciesism" and "anti-druidism" - is probably the least important and significant in the Society's own eyes; a mere consequnce or side effect of their more important views and beliefs. Things they would hardly even have thought about before coming to Ymph.

Of course, this may well be percieved as, and called out as ignorance or prejudice, or even just being philosophically wrong, and no-one minds that. The point is that it's not conjured out of thin air. Nor is it there just for the sake of picking fights.

I'm flattered by Howland using us as an example, and I take him to approve of precisely this elaborate and worked-out nature of the Society's expressions. So don't be shy! Come up with new forms of hatred and discrimination! It's fun!

I personally love racism on EfU. It should occur more often in our game world IMO.

I don't think elves would claim that humans are "ignorant" for the humans displaying racism against elves, for elves are generally more racist than humans themselves. Same as dwarves.

I always looked at humans (though there are exceptions), as a more cosmopolitan race, whereas all the more exotic races of FR happen to be more racist, elitist, xenophobic, etc.

DTW

By the way... do I see Zarus? :O

This thread has convinced me to read more about the Order (ORDER LOL) of the Shining Hammer.  It's something to do while I wait for this darn hunk of iron to find its way slowly home.

Racism is good.  Racism is great.  Hell, racism is half the reason I play the game.

Am I racist IRL?  Nope.  I just enjoy the challenge.  If people just shrug off the obvious it's more than disappointing for me.

+1.  Moar racism!

I play Clyde.

Some of you may have met him and experienced his rants about authority, or his comments on the various freaks that wander into town unhindered, his derisive nicknames for non-human races, and women doing men's work.

Most of the time he's met with derision for his views which most PCs sadly consider antiquated. Now don't get me wrong, sexism actually is antiquated given the relative gender equality in the Forgotten Realms, but that doesn't mean it can't still be a valid part of a PC, or the setting.

So people ought to consider when they're creating their PC's story, that given their tragic past, or hometown, or any other facet of the PC; whether there would be some normally benign racial group they might just feel paranoia and superstition towards. Or whether your PC may have abused their wife when they were married. Or at least whether you just don't like someone that's different from yourself. I guarantee you it will make your character a lot more interesting. Don't just insert it into your character though, you need to build their personality to encompass the sum of their traits, not just tack them on.

And while your PC may not feel the same way, it doesn't mean that you'd suddenly call out a person for their bigotry. Remember, racism is not some minority opinion. Its a pervasive part of the Forgotten Realms. To act like you were born and raised apart from it and were not affected by it just breaks immersion for everyone else.

Playing a dwarf atm, and I must say, after encountering this xenianisim? Several times in game, not being able to quest because of it, being excluded from DM events due to it, and not being able to purchase goods again due to it, IT %$#^&*@! ROCKS!  Really fresh approach to the whole racist thing, instantly gives me something to work against, and strive to foil if I so choose.  May the Shining Hammer shine on right up to the point it is sundered to a million pieces under dwarven boot!  As a  victim of racism here in our fine game world, I give it a "thumbs up"!

Quote from: GoldenArrow;248427This thread has convinced me to read more about the Order (ORDER LOL) of the Shining Hammer.  It's something to do while I wait for this darn hunk of iron to find its way slowly home.

Here, good proselyte, is all of it: The Illuminated Meditations of Pansophia Theochalybis: A Cyclopaedia of Works by the Shining Hammer Society. (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56470%22)

There are two main points to this that I would like to address.
1. What is Race? (yes howland address this too)
[INDENT]Okay, I think there is a general confusion on this point. Race is a misnomer. What we are talking about are different Species. Obviously genetics has been replaced by any number of things within Faerun but the concept still applies. There is a difference between elves and humans and goblins: like the difference between gray wolves and golden retrievers and Scorpions. It is not wrong to realize that a Dwarf is a Dwarf is a Dwarf, which inherently and impossibly different then a Human.

If you look over the setting information of the 3e faerun, you will find that very very few cities have diversity within the races. They are primarily one species, with a few stragglers of other races tagged on as a major minority. There are exceptions, but those are rare, and they do not change the fact that those species clash against each other. These clashes are what add the culture, its not bigotry.

Lets look at some monsters since they are far easier to separate from human norms. You will not see Gnolls, Orcs, and Goblins charging forward at you working together unless something is forcing them to. They all speak the same types of language, they all walk on two legs and use weapons and tools. They hunt the same food and predate the same human roads. Left alone they will attack each others until a dominance is found and the weaker species others are pushed into other territories or wiped out entirely.

Dwarvan Kingdoms and Dwarvan Gods. Human Kingdoms and Human Gods. etc etc. The humans of Netheril learned magic from the elves, and then used it to eradicate them from the landscape. You might say that was a long time ago, or that it was just those humans, not all humans. Except then, how did human claim most of the lands they have today? They took them. Species are in conflict with each other, this is the normal. Yes they can cooperate, but it is far from the norm.

Dwarves and elves have been fighting longer then humans have been walking the map. There are very cool cultural creations from this. Dwarves are greedy short stock hairy things that seek and labor day upon day into the stone for shiney metals and tools of war. It was said that during the hayday of their empire they would have annual dragon hunts, where a clan would find a lair and slay everything within, looting the place dry.

Dragons speak common. Dwarves speak common. They kill each other over resources and power. Like any species in the real world, when you set two races in the same area and they both rely on the same resources, one of those races will die off. Everyone has their nitch. If you want racism in the Realms, then look at the Humans: Damaran, Mulani, Chondanthon, Bedine, etc. Those are all humans with ingrained racial differences.

[/INDENT]2. What is the difference between random hate and learned behavior?
[INDENT]Thou tun'st this World is spot on when it talks about how your  characters belief structure should be accumulated from events or  society.

I am not going through lore to give you precise actualities, so excusing the details please look at the general point behind the examples.

I would say druid in their wisdom could look back upon the workings of  the world, and see that... where humans go, the forests die, the fey  are hunted into memory, the roads are carves through landscape, and artificial laws and war  are then set and fought on these territories without a care for what was here before. Humans are never in  balance, the druids are mandated to enforce this balance, so they must  fight for the wild. There doesn't always need to be a city and the wild in harmony, sometimes you just got to kick them out or kill them. Druids can look upon elves and see them as long time  allies and respectful races. They might then turn and look on dwarves  and see how their mining pollutes rivers and scars mountains... That they motivated by material and meaningless wealth in a constant engine of stone and metal. I would say that dwarves can be as much hated as orcs.

This stands true for everything, and the more you narrow your approach the more you can find what might make your PC tick. Being hateful to be hateful is the shorthand of real belief. The first gives immediate conflict but the second moves others to act as well.
[/INDENT]

It's important to remember of course that Halflings are better then all the other races of course because they incorporate a balanced reverence for nature and civilization along with a very lawful but freedom loving society, and they alone amongst the races (excluding the gnomes) have not have a failed destroyed empire.
 
Frankly, everyone will be better off when the longshanks realize they aren't the future anymore and accept their 3 foot overlords.

Also less halflings worshiping human gods.
 
TO BE SERIOUS NAO THOUGH, yes, racism does make sense, though it's hard for us to simply remove decades of enlightenment from our behavior and thinking process. I think it's a wonderful thing that 'racism bad' is so ingrained in our mentality now that we have difficulty even PRETENDING it isn't. Ofc we could adjust this for roleplay and it makes for an interesting experiance.
 
Speaking from experiance, 'soft racism' is easy to get away with and adds alot of flavor to characters. For example, Sigrun and Drem talking shit about humans capacity to ruin -everything- amongst one another, and telling the poor simple humans 'they just don't understand' what it's like to have gods that really love and look out for them like Yondalla's children. Does this mean they HATE humans? No, they just acknowledge how -clearly- inferior the poor half mad humans are and wonder if the world might not be better off without them.
 
Fastforeward 100 years, deathcamps.

Quote from: Wafflecone;248476Frankly, everyone will be better off when the longshanks realize ...

I'm glad I started using this: It's spreading! New derisive term for non-hin/dwarf/gnome ftw!

But seriously, racism is good! My only concern is that there isn't enough of it!

I ... have such strong feelings about racism that I don't like this.. :( I just feel sick to my stomach when I see racism in EFU as much as I do in RL. I know that its a game, but in a non roleplay game if someone is Racist, it is them who is racist, but in here its the character who is, hopefully not them. I just tend to make my characters not hate other races. I hope the Team and Players don't think any worse of me for that.

It's important to remember that the "racism" present in EFU is not at all parallel to real life racism. It just isn't the same thing, nor is it even similar.

Its not the things they say, or who they say them to, its the idea of racism and how it effects people that gets at me. Even if its a game, I cried during Toy Story 3, and its toys.

Racism is one of those RL things that -can- upset people, so above all it's important to have class.

We don't like racism in real life because all races of people have the same inherent value in civilized society.

That's not the case in Forgotten Realms, where the different "races" may as well be different species altogether.

They really are different, with differing predispositions and abilities.

Quote from: Seanzie;248948Its not the things they say, or who they say them to, its the idea of racism and how it effects people that gets at me. Even if its a game, I cried during Toy Story 3, and its toys.

You're concered about racism in game as you see reflections of real life racism? It must really upset you when they.. You know... Start stabbing eachother to death with swords.

Quote from: Mort;248413Druids are probably the most isolationist groups of people in Faerun.They are suspicious of every non-druid, never to talk about druidic secrets to them. They could certainly despise / fear people from civilization, in fact, it's very easy to picture...

That's so... undruidish. But who am i to argue? Sounds like fun.

Down with racist scum! Elves, dwarves, humans and hin are all equal (but we prefer not to talk about the gnomes)!

(http://analogmedium.com/blog/2007/03/undead+2.jpg)

Also, we prefer the term "Undead-American."

Ahem... But seriously, IG racism is great. A rivalry between elves and dwarves, hatred between dwarves and orcs (even half-orcs), elves hunting drow and vice versa, wanton slaughter of kobolds and goblins by gnomes and halflings... Many races even get racial feats to deal with their race's enemies. There is a line, though, and that line is where people start bringing in RL racism into RP, like not liking people based on the color of their skin.

Quote from: Cluckyx;248952You're concered about racism in game as you see reflections of real life racism? It must really upset you when they.. You know... Start stabbing eachother to death with swords.

I'm not saying I'm a humanitarian or anything, I just don't appreciate racism in any shape or form. :\ its just how I am.

Quote from: Seanzie;249002I'm not saying I'm a humanitarian or anything, I just don't appreciate racism in any shape or form. :\ its just how I am.

Again: You hate racism but murder you don't seem to have a problem with.

I don't see why it's inconcevable to be anti racism and pro murder. In fact I am far more for indiscriminate killings and less racially motivated culling.

Its a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though. It's extremely different. I mean I'm not telling you what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong, We all have opinions, and mine is just different I suppose! :)

Racial hatreds are a bedrock of Forgotten Realms.

As BOM say's IRL and IG are nothing alike.  Humans generally dislike elves because they are arrogant, live much longer and have an air of superiority.  The opposite is true for elves views of humans.  IRL everyone is the same.

1) I agree that there is plenty of tension between the various races in the Forgotten Realms. Simultaneously, there are also places in FR where there is not. Silverymoon is a prime example (humans, elves and dwarves live there in harmony). And hello. Half-elves.

The most distinct racial hatreds occur where favoured alignment differs radically: elves vs. drow, dwarves vs. duergar, gnomes/halflings vs. kobolds/goblins.

We're also missing a fair bit of complexity here. Here's two examples:

Moon elves are broadly considered quite tolerant, and are commonly found in human cities, and travelling the lands enjoying the company of all races. Sun elves are much more isolationist.

Quote from: Races of Faerun pg. 39Moon elves find the diversity of Faerun's races to be intoxicating and forever surprising, and they especially value the insights of other races because they often think of things no elf would ever consider.

Shield dwarves are broadly considered to come from one of two attitudes: The Hidden (traditionalists who prefer to live apart with other dwarves in mountain strongholds) and Wanderers (those who make their life travelling in non-dwarven lands). Even the dwarf/elf rivalry some people seem to think is common is probably only common among the Hidden:

Quote from: Races of Faerun pg. 20"Despite centures of squabbling with elves and half-elves, shield dwarves have always managed to put aside their differences with the Tel-quessir in the face of outside threats."

2) The Players in a PnP game are exceptional people. Broadly they do not represent the "common" people of their race, and are therefore less likely to represent their common traits, and why as a DM I'm fairly accepting of player's character ideas. This is a game after all, and people should feel free to enjoy their character's story.

The problem we have on a PW, is that there are just so many exceptional people in the setting. So seeing a few more who represent the common attitudes of their people makes things a bit more interesting.

Tl;dr version:

Reminding people that "rights" do not exist in FR and that many races are quite isolationist from a racial perspective makes sense. Simultaneously however, nearly all of the lore in the Forgotten Realms allows for many exceptions or interpretations of racial characteristics. So if you wish to be a tolerant PC, there is plenty of lore that backs you up. There's no need to resort to contemporary humanist thought.

Quote from: Seanzie;249010Its a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though.

But they're not people, they're characters. Made-up, fictional characters. Not people.

I think I see Seanzie's point. We may all have different sensitive spots and some people are hit harder by certain things than others. It is unfair to call Seanzie pro-murder, it would be more reasonable to say that he has less trouble swallowing killing as a story device than racism. And there is really nothing wrong with that. What it means is that when we employ various more extreme story devices such as slavery, torture and, yes, racism, we should be aware that sometimes people may be upset and respect their right to OOCly inform us, "Whoa, can we back up a little? I am having trouble dealing with this and am not having fun any more."

And as Wafflecone says, it always helps to show class when dealing with these matters. The more aware you stay of the fact that you are trying to tell a cooperative story with other people and not trying to 'win' or 'dominate' a game, the less likely you are to inadvertently hit buttons and upset people you play with. Or, short form: Remember you are playing with real people. Respect their right to have fun, too.

QuoteIts a game, nobody is dying, people still have personalities over the internet though. It's extremely different. I mean I'm not telling you what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong, We all have opinions, and mine is just different I suppose! :)

Your opinions are not just different, they are wrong.

If the idea of a dwarf hating a goblin just for being a goblin or a drow an elf or a human a gnome bothers you on an OOC level, this is simply not appropriate for EFU.

Certainly some things we can be sensitive about. The Old Hack is right that some things we should be aware might be "hot button" issues... I can imagine, as an example, that our inclusion of narcotics is something some players would like to OOC'ly steer away from. But being OOC'ly disturbed by the fact that the different species of EFU don't get along or some players might roleplay characters with prejudice in this way is to me a fairly clear sign that EFU is not right for you.

If it helps, just look at them as fans of different football (or basketball, or soccer, or baseball) teams.

Some get along alright with others, some have rivalries going on and take every chance they can to get a good dig in, and some will shank you if you wear the wrong colors.  Oh, wait, that's gangbangers.

Anyway, see?  Now it isn't racism.  It's sports!  Everybody loves sports!

Well, I never specified what my thought of Racism is. In my opinion, a dwarf hating a goblin because he is a goblin would not bother me.  But some of the things people might say as their character to other characters would. I understand if you well know that my opinions aren't different but in fact wrong all together. I just believe strongly in the fact that racism isn't right.

As wrong, or incorrect my opinion may be it's mine and I'll stick with it, I do not believe that because you disagree with me or think my opinion is plain wrong, that efu isn't right for me. I am not going to let that stop me from playing either.

I could go into examples at how other things effect other players, even though they know it is just a game, and not real life. But I will end as this.

People have different opinions, and in my opinion, I am not right nor wrong. Just different.

It may be a good moment for either community as a whole, or just DM team, to discuss "lines and veils" of EfU again, though I myself have found no problem with them.

What are "lines and veils"? Term coined by many RPG systems, it's quite a simple thing - an agreement between Game Master and the players, about what topics shall be excluded from the game at all [for example, crimes of sexual nature in criminal - based games], while "veils" are themes that will only be suggested, without very graphical descriptions [for example - violent murder, or rape scenes].

Of course, from what I have seen, EfU is a very mature community, so we did not have much problems here, and the only "veil" there is, is on sexual content. But it may be a good idea to wrap it all up again, perhaps.


As for racism - hm. It's a bit of a problem that I have with DnD in general - unlike Warhammer, or for computer gaming example, Arcanum, racism was never a big part in DnD, and if anything, it was "Good guys hating on kobolds" form of racism. Part of the problem is, that well, DnD was made as a simple system, in which orc was supposed to be a LOTR style minion of evil, and you did not think of an orc as someone with family, no - just another grunt for Big Bad. The "good" races are usually just united against a common threat of beforementioned Big Bad, so racism does not take as much of a place. Of course, in later settings (Dark Sun, Ravenloft) racial problems started to feature, but sadly - FR really wasn't one of them. I'd suggest a draft of a guide to interracial interactions.

How does this work as a quick and dirty guide?

Humans often hate elves for being arrogant, distant and for looking  different.

Humans often hate dwarves for being foreign, odd, living too long and being culturally different.

Elves often hate humans for being impatient, greedy, shortsighted and harming nature.

Everyone often hates halflings for the reputation of being dishonest.

Elves hate halforcs for being, half orcs, and half orcs return the feeling for elves, being elves.  Pretty much everyone else hates half orcs, for being half orcs too.

Half elves are often the subject of racism by both elves and humans, for being seen as the other race, or a mixed abomination.

There is no special hatred between dwarfs and elves, besides scuffles over preserving nature.  This isn't Middle Earth.  There are cultural disagreements, but it's nothing like the ill feelings often held between elves and humans.

Dwarfs and gnomes often don't get along, for reasons no one above four feet will ever understand.  Probably something to do with smelling farts all day long.  And turnips, that is a part of it too.

Halflings often don't like the other races, for being too freaking tall.

Anyone remember in EFU there was this speech about forbidding the kobolds and goblins to even vote?

THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO

Seanzie, some opinions are wrong.

"In my opinion, sugar cures cavities."

Wrong.

Can we get a list... A list regarding each race and who they... urhm... Dislike..

I get so confused regarding who i need to hate and such... Sorry

Yes, BOM, some opinions are wrong, my apologies.

Seanzie is right to the extent that it's not okay to go hating PC's because they have a darker skin color. If you see a Chultan or Thayan, don't go calling them monsters due to their skin color, and certainly don't go using real life derogatory terms for them or for any other ethnicity. Calling them a dino-lover or a tattooed freak, well, that's fine (it may net you a few spears or fireballs to the face, though).

Real Life Racism=Bad
Forgotten Realms Racism=Good

No sense getting upset over any of it. EfU is rife with all the 'bad elements of society,' drugs, slavery, mugging, murder, poverty, used to be a few prostitutes around (may still be). It's a far from perfect world, and it's better to keep it so.

As for a list, here.
Humans: Neutral in most regards.. monsters are monsters and they're often raised hearing stories about how the drow will take them away if they don't behave.
Elves: Deep hatred of drow. Occasionally a rivalry with dwarves, the two don't see eye to eye but violence is very rare.
Dwarves: Orcs and goblins are hated, while giants are absolutely despised. Hatred of elves is rare (but existant) but there is usually a rivalry between the two races. Dwarves, halflings and gnomes all get along very well, dwarves are even sometimes accepted into the Order of the Hin Fist, and the 'Golden Alliance' very nearly became a haven for Halflings as well some time ago.
Halflings: Bitter enemies to goblins.
Gnomes: Bitter enemies to kobolds.
Half-Orcs: Dwarves are their main foe, rarely being trusted by or trusting them. They are shunned by mostly everyone for their orc blood, and even shunned by orcs for their human blood.

People should know that EFU and RL are two completely different things and should remain that way.
In Forgotten Realms there is undeniable racism/speciesism. I myself have played many racist characters (Burlug, Dhavard) but know that I actualy do have friends of other races and I would never treat them like this in real life.
Seanzie, I know you are concerned and the racism here is not on skin color. It is because of the races fear of the unknown and most of the race's belief in supremacy.

Quote from: Tarnished_Tulip;249103Can we get a list... A list regarding each race and who they... urhm... Dislike..

I get so confused regarding who i need to hate and such... Sorry

If Cluckyx and I ever get around to coordinating schedules to set up my website log-in, I can certainly see about adding this kind of information to race description pages on the website based on information presented in "Races of Faerun". Pretty much every race gets a "relations with other races" section in that book.

When playing within this realm, there are certain truisms one must adopt to maintain the immersion the EFU DM staff and community has worked very hard to preserve.

One of these truisms each player should accept is that racism is a real, guiding influence on the lives of everyone in the Forgotten Realms.

That said, adventurers are often exceptional individuals that break from usual social norms. Just don't act shocked if said adventurer is treated like a half-brained social retard by players, and NPC's especially, that's been living under a rock for the last 1000 years.

Lastly, when one fails to maintain these truisms to an egregious level, however, the immersion and probity of the server in general suffers as a result.

More simply put, it's like pissing in the pool. You ruin things for everyone by doing it.

It is all about style! As a player if you indeed incorporate heavy prejudice into your concept, think about how you can make it setting appropriate yet an awesome experience for all involved.

Examplars are already given in this thread so I shall not repost them.

As for species. I think we need to take a step back and realise that this fictional universe was created from our human perspective.

Essentially, all the demi-human races are made to be a certain character stereotype of a sub sect of potential human traits. For example, all elves are long lived, hauntingly beautiful, have long ears and are slow to adapt to change and all dwarves are loyal, industrious, short, fat and bearded. (Very specific and categorised phenotype variants of the human race enforced to create a fictional species.)

What I am saying is that by design the species are made to be different. It is an artificial -design.- And therefore it simply must be enforced that there are salient and easily observed differences between the species which is why Howland is saying that racism is correct. Because such differences must exist and be noted ICly to allow for us to retain immersion!

There is of course the exception that the Human species is completely versatile and can encompass every single possible combination of character traits without specific guidelines. Which I would dare to say stems from the game creators human centric perspective. (Although exceptions to every species are allowed too, they are just rare and usually anti-everything that defines their race e.g. Drizzt Do'urden.)

Seanzie, hopefully that helps you understand the situation better.

Good and Evil are real. Some species are always good, some are always evil. Good and Evil will always hate each other.

Same with Chaos and Law, Nature and Civilisation. These are binary and absolute.

Elves are Chaotic, Good and Naturey. Thus, they would be inclined to feel racism towards races that were Lawful, races that were Evil, or races that were Naturey.

I hate long eared elves.
I hate  fat dwarves.
I hate thieving hin.
I hate short gnomes.


But mostly I hate smelly orc-bloods.

You know, it would be a good idea to make a "guideline" thread to show what certian races or cultures generally think of other races/cultures. It could go like:

Elves:
They consider themselves superior to other races. They think of humas as ignorant children that need to be guided, dislike dwarfves because of their dwarfy nature, and do not like half-orcs because of the orc blood. They particulary despise the drow or half-drow, they are mortal enemies and never have anything good to say about each other. They also hate orcs with every breath they hold. They get along very well with druids and wildfolk in general, as well as any fey.

Dwarfs:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

You get the idea. Could allow characters to be racist "correctly".

Disclaimer: i made the description up. I are ignorant about elves.

Racial attitudes are discussed in Races of Stone, Races of Wild, and Races of destiny. But the general idea is -
 
Elves:
 
Generally reguard Humans as shortlived and childish, but also with great potential if they would JUST FUCKING LISTEN. Humans can also be destructive, drawing their ire.
 
They reguard dwarves as level headed and respect their crafts, but their fundamentally different views on life (elves valuing freedom and leisure, dwarves law and labor) as well as the Dwarven tendency to mine and lumber put them at odds. They also have fundamentally different views on aesthetics, so something that is beautiful art to a dwarf would seem a lumpy squarish thing to an Elf.
 
Halflings tend to hold elves in awe, and they get along well, though halfling humor and 'ownership concepts' can occasionally cause problems.
 
Elves and Gnomes get along, generally, having very similar outlooks.
 
Halforcs, see humanity, but add orcyness for some extra hatred.
 
Dwarves:
 
Generally see humans as shortlived and childish (noticing a trend?), but respecting their capacity for industry. Humans are stupid, but have potential.
 
Elves and Dwarves respect each other for their crafts, and in the manner of rivals who've gone at it enough times to gain respect for one another. Similar lifespans also make friendships easier than with shorter lived races. However, they have dire fundamental cultural differences- 'the good life' to a Dwarf is to work all day, every day. They see elves as lazy and listless and are amazed they can produce such fine weapons and armor- not as good as a dwarves mind, and certainly alot more fluffy. Elves have this annoying habit of putting too much value in lumber. We burn that shit to make coal to make steel. It's not like you mined it out of the ground.
 
Dwarves and Halflings do not get along very well. Halflings are very lawful, but have a relaxed down to earth culture that values personal freedom, and differing concepts of 'ownership'. Halflings for their part, think dwarves have no sense of humor at all, and are stubborn- great for playing jokes on.
 
Dwarves and Gnomes get along well befitting their shared origins of stone, though they are culturally very different- though they value fine workmanship and precious stones, and this is usually enough to prevent incessant gnomish pranks from causing civil wars.
 
Halforcs are just like humans but with a shade of hated orcs, making them even dumber and more hated.
 
Halflings:
 
Halflings tend to keep to themselves and integrate well into all manner of societies, so they generally get along with the populous humans very well and can be found in almost any human city. That being said they don't see themselves as 'half' of anything and don't like the condescending attitude some humans give them, or how everyone thinks they're thieves.
 
Halflings admire the industry of dwarves but think they need to relax and take a hit of this Brandywine pipeweed this shit is the kings yo. Too uptight.
 
Halflings hold elves somewhat in awe, finding them ancient and mysterious, but with similar appreciates for art and culture. They can be a bit too ethereal though, for the down to earth Halflings.
 
Halflings get along great with gnomes. They love jokes, community, and live underground. Gnomish humor can be a bit much even for a halfling sometimes though.
 
Halflings are wary of Halforcs if for no other reason then they're so damned tootall. They're usually willing to give them more of a fair shake, though they're perfectly ready to poisen their food the moment they suspect them of worshipping Gruumsh.
 
Gnomes:
 
Gnomes are a somewhat private and magical race and are rarely found in human settlements, but they tend to reguard humans fondly- if somewhat too serious or wild. Their lack of communal identity mystifies them. Gnomes are the patronizing grandpa, grinning and shaking their heads at the kids foolish games. Humans are varied enough that some of them take jokes well though.
 
Dwarves are respected cousins who value the earth and gems, community, and good workmanship. They're way, way too serious though.
 
Gnomes like elves, they really do, but sometimes they're too mysterious and proud for their own damned good.
 
Gnomes and Halflings get along pretty well, although Halflings take the concept of 'communal property' a bit further than them, and swiftly escalating prank battles can be the stuff of legends
 
Gnomes are suspicious of Halforcs but generally good natured enough to give them a chance until phantasmal killing them out of improved invis becomes necessary.
 
Humans:
 
As a massivly eclectic and varied race, exact human attitudes are difficult to pin down, however, they tend to reguard:
 
Elves as beautiful, elegant, but perhaps too dainty and too proud.
 
Dwarves as reliable, dependible, and good workers but too damn stubborn and surly.
 
Halflings as good neighbors and bargainers, but GODDAMNIT WHERES MY DAGGER YOU LITTLE SHIT
 
Gnomes are strange, but good natured and peaceful neighbors. Hey, is that a pig bladder filled with wa-*sploosh*
 
Halforcs are the product of rape and war, and carry more spiritual and emotional baggage for humans than perhaps any other race. Opinions vary much, but they are all reguarded with a subtle mixture of horror and pity.

Halforcs...
 
Hate everyone because they're godless killing machines.

Quote from: Wafflecone;249350Halforcs...
 
Hate everyone because they're godless killing machines.

That would be bears.

This is still an issue

Why would it not be?

In light of the current IG conflict, I don't think that is fair.

I'll toss my hat into the ring on the issue, as I suspect the view of my PC is the same as some others.  My character knows that halforcs are trouble making monsters who MAY eat babies.  She also knows the undead DEFINITELY eat babies and if she has to chose between the two...

They have a tendency to carry big axes and be very strong and also smash the undead.

I agree however, that anyone who is taking a "Half orcs are people too! Everyone should be treated the same!" is very silly.

Savages have their place, and those monsters are best kept either on a leash or outside the walls with the other animals!

But no, on a serious note, I've always been very pleased with how relations between different species and different races of the same species has been carried out on EFU. It's always been fairly tastefully done. Though not involved with the goings-on of this rp I am curious how it will turn out. This is indeed a time for change to shake up the foundation a bit.

Errr? Why is this an issue? Near as I can tell, this is Working As Intended. We have a lot of people with racist attitudes, some more who just don't give a crap and fairly few who are willing to give half-orcs a chance but who tend to get overridden.

I have absolutely no OOC issue with the people who roleplay fantasy racism but on the other hand I don't see the advantage of screaming at the people who roleplay more openminded or tolerant characters. For the love of God, would there even be any interesting conflict on this issue if everyone just AGREED that "Half-Orcs Are Bad And Must Be Cast Out"?

And as to that, racism need not be the same always. A race might tend to hate one race and like another, but why not change that around? I knew an absolutely brilliantly played elf character who had been brought up among dwarves and who hated other elves. I once saw a player group of halflings and gnomes who closed ranks against and distrusted or hated all the 'tootall' races. I myself played a half-elf who utterly despised her elven parentage.

It's fine to be ICly intolerant but for heaven's sake show a little OOC tolerance for other playstyles. It's not a huge problem if someone feels uncomfortable about roleplaying racism, is it?

Two things:

I've always thought racism in FR was necessary and, if played well, added a lot. I support Balop and the other players and look forward to a rivalry!

My character is an intellectual and he will call bullshit where he sees it, whether that is with people, groups, or Gods. Please don't call me silly, Barber; I have very good reasons which can be FOIG.

I worded it poorly.  It is silly to apply 21st century liberal values to a fantasy game with magic in the psuedo-middle ages.

Racism and speciesism are both in-character traits that one should react to in an in-character manner. It makes perfect sense for individuals from almost any area in Faerun to run half-breeds out of town; just as it makes sense for Sembians to detest and despise elves.

This said there will always be exceptions that defy the common stereotypes of the half-orc, there will always be more enlightened PCs who are geared toward acceptance, and BOTH may face severe stigma merely for being who they are and believing what they believe. Overcoming the widespread xenophobia of a tiny town besieged on all sides is part of the difficulty of playing a character whose mindset is geared toward liberalism.

The important thing to remember is that, ultimately, all these matters belong IC. :)

The issue is the use of the word Racist and acting as though it is as disgusting as it is today. Such a thing is not even close to out of the norm for the setting and acting as though it is so awful and out of place is silly. "You are just a detestable RACIST" I believe was the exact wording. The use of the terms in the setting is immersion breaking as Howland clearly stated in the beginning and the problem is that those of us who know it doesn't belong in the setting have to cringe and view it every time someone wants to rp their "open minded" PC with current world views and terms.

Errr? Who did this and where? I don't get it and I really hope it wasn't me. I agree with that, this sort of accusation doesn't belong as it carries way too many modern negative implications with it. :(

Racism is defendable, especially in FR. But it is not true that any contrary view is "21st century liberal". Any thinking person can come up with a ton of reasons why racist hate and discrimination is evil. I am not playing a liberal, I am playing a thinking person in a world where the common man is uneducated and fearful.

I'm fully aware it's an uphill battle. I say bring it on. IG.

Edit: Ahahaha. Lee Alhafor said it way better than I did.

Quote from: The Pathfinder;276270Racism is defendable, especially in FR. But it is not true that any contrary view is "21st century liberal".

Totally agreed, but anything that does give a too strong impression of it is probably not a good thing, especially if it has OOC overtones of the player doing something contemptible rather than the character. Therefore some amount of distance, care and respect for fellow players is necessary.

That being said, once again, let people have opposing views ICly. The respect for viewpoints should hopefully run both ways.

I would put my thoughts on this like this....

If you do not portray the racism of your race in the setting you are viewed much like a person today who believes in RL that the earth is flat.

The vast majority of people will think you mentally retarded, given all experience and evidence avaliable, indicates you are plain wrong.

I am sure the DM,s would reflect this in any Mayoral election. So the next time there his one perhaps the candidates will need to proclaim their position on such things... If they are of the more accepting nature they may see their support diminish.

Quote from: Veiled;276294The vast majority of people will think you mentally retarded, given all experience and evidence prejudice avaliable, indicates you are plain wrong.

Fixed.

Oh boy, I love these posts! This post wasn't around when I was here. Let me throw in my millenia-late two coppers too.

To be frank... Howland: You picked the wrong Campaign Setting to base EFU in. Especially the wrong edition, what with all of the whitewashing (or washing away of white males?) that the WotC PC Police have done with the product, and TSR before them. Forgotten Realms has generally held the trappings of a medieval/renaissance world, and then imbued them with, as the term that it seems we're using, "21st century ideals on equality". Racism and Sexism within the "civilized races" (more on that later), in terms of in-character, are rather minimal in the Forgotten Realms. They are rarely, if ever, used as driving forces of plot development.

You'll find plenty of female adventurers and women in power in Forgotten Realms, with relatively equivalent treatment, and landowning at that. It's also true that you can find almost any of the core races in any of the major cities. Sure, you may find those races in lesser numbers, but you won't find it being written that they'll be confined to specific ghettos in the city, needing permission to leave or do business with others. You don't read that there's often lynch mobs for getting rid of all of a certain race in these towns and cities.

Further, think of the pictures you've seen of your typical adventuring party in Forgotten Realms. Oh, I'm sure it will be an ensemble of Tolkienesque proportions, with your dwarf, elf, halfling, and human. Heck, since 2nd edition, half-orc became a playable race. And in most non-core Forgotten Realms products, they'll promote a more diverse group than that, what with all the genesai and subraces. I mean, we're talking about a campaign setting where the posterboy is a freaking DROW, thanks to R.A. Salvatore.

Now, I say that is within the "civilized" races. This is because of the dichotomy that exists (or existed) between "Good Aligned Player Characters", and "Evil Monsters". In first edition, it was real easy to separate "Monsters" from the "civilized" races. Killing a monster (infidel) was a good deed, and the more you killed, the better person you were. In 2nd edition, it was still rather easy to still tell the difference between the "Civilized Races" and "Monsters", but it was becoming murky, with the introduction of Half-orc as a playable race. PCs were still primarily good, and they went out to do good deeds, but killing monsters wasn't the end all of doing good deeds, it was merely the result of foiling Team Evil's plan. With 3rd edition, it became REAL murky, as tons of playable monster races were introduced, and adventuring parties weren't always focused on being the crusaders of Good anymore, especially as the Anti-Hero became more popular. This reflects the continued injections and evolution of "21st century ideals on equality" being infused into the setting as time went on.

I suppose to really follow through on this debate, you'd have to revive the ever-enjoyed alignment debates, on good and evil deeds, and races/magic/items/etc. that are intrinsically evil, as they're closely related.

Anyhow, muddled history trip over. I myself enjoy a good rousing game of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, so I can enjoy slaying the heathens without any issues of moral complexity. I could say more, but I think it's easier to sum it up with a TL;DR...

[SIZE="5"]TL;DR:[/SIZE]

Forgotten Realms has minimal reference of racism, sexism, and generally is injected with "21st century ideals on equality". It's generally Politically Correct, and made for all ages.

EFU encourages racism (but not Sexism?... probably because you guys don't want a sausagefest.) as a means for promoting conflict, as it makes a great motivating factor. Further, it makes sense that a village of survivors from an undead menace would be racist, especially if most of those villagers are "uneducated" and frightened for their lives.

... Yet we're supposed to draw character backgrounds, religions, and concepts from Forgotten Realms.

Solution:

How about we finish this discussion, and figure out how much racism we want in EFU, and then take this over to the player compendium, discuss how to blanket this, in general terms, over Forgotten Realms, and CANONIZE it as a change to the setting, stickied in New Player Information or in the Player Compendium forums. This way, there needn't be any future confusion on this issue. At the end of the day, I think this is where the problem stems from... Well, apart from our own "enlightened" mentalities, anyway.

If you can kill Finder Wyvernspur, changing the beliefs of the majority of the people in Forgotten Realms shouldn't be too hard to canonize at all.

Edit: Attempts at this to be done HERE. (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64274%22)

In FR the prejudice is based upon real experience and real evidence.

People can pretend that half-orcs aren't a widely chaotic and violent bunch. People can believe that all races are equal. People can try and be friends with any drow claiming to be a CG rebel. They can think that big dumb giant just wants to be your friend.

Those people will get killed eventually for being too trusting. Race is more than a stat adjustment in FR, and one can often look at a non-human and make general assumptions.

The common man and woman in FR is a superstitious lot. Consider all that has happened in the 1300's DR in the Forgotten Realms. Lots of catastrophe. It's been nonstop, almost. It isn't going to make them more trusting, it's going to make everything seem more dangerous. Mages casting spells in the street, horned freaks offering candy to your children, drow prancing about claiming to be good guys, etc.

It's the duty of players to react accordingly to these things, and of DM's to make the populace react accordingly. On EfU, this has not been a problem. Racism and even sexism has been here at enough of a level that people aren't being driven away or offended, nor is it the 21st century ideology. In PnP games and other servers, the same can't be said, and it's because people aren't willing to step on each others' toes to see things done proper. OOC courtesy often goes to far.

Your choices, IC and OOC, have consequences, and that includes what you chose for your race and build.

Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary:

prej - u - dice   n., v.,  -diced, dic - ing.

--n.  1. an unfavourable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought or reason.   2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favourable or unfavourable.   3. unreasonable feelings, opinions or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, directed against a racial, religious or national group.   4. such attitudes considered collectively: the war against prejudice is never-ending.  5. disadvantage resulting from some judgment or action of another: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.  6.  resulting injury or detriment.  7.  without prejudice. Law. without dismissing, damaging or otherwise affecting a legal interest or demand.  8.  to affect with a prejudice, either favourable or unfavourable.  9.  to affect to the disadvantage or detriment of, damage, injure.


Or to greatly simplify, to claim that in FR, prejudice is based on experience and evidence is the same as claiming that in FR, up is down.

~tOH.

I cannot be bothered explaining the point I was making again.

Suffice to say that in efu if your PC expresses a view that half orcs are just like the civilised races or should be treated as 'individuals' then expect your PC to be treated like they have extreme views that are against all norms.

Not certain if you really want to make that "real experience and evidence" argument considering, if anything, EFU teaches you very quickly that humans, halflings and dwarves are the races most likely to mug/murder/pickpocket you and be varying shades of evil. Half orcs barely rate a mention in that regard.

Quote from: Veiled;276305I cannot be bothered explaining the point I was making again.

Thank you. It was about to make my brain implode from the pain as it was.

Anyway, at some point I will be bothered to explain the point, and enlighten you TOH.

This has likely run it's course and can be progressed IG.

Quote from: ScruffyMcSmirkalot;276300Solution: How about we finish this discussion, and figure out how much racism we want in EFU, and then take this over to the player compendium, discuss how to blanket this, in general terms, over Forgotten Realms, and CANONIZE it as a change to the setting, stickied in New Player Information or in the Player Compendium forums. This way, there needn't be any future confusion on this issue.

The funny thing is, we already have an established canon about this. Howland, the server's founder and progenitor par excellence, formulated the policy by fiat in the very first post, and subsequent posts, in this thread. He created this thread to address those who were somehow alarmed OOCly by "racism" ICly.

While the discussion that has followed has been amusing and probably healthy, it does not change what EfU policy is.

Namely, the following, and I summarize to make it as crystal clear as possible:

Quote from: Howland
EFU is not the real world. [...]

The terms "racism" or "speciesism" should really not ever be used IC'ly.  These are words that should not really have any meaning whatsoever in  EFU and serve only to break immersion. It makes me cringe. [...]

Not to mention, in EFU, racism is correct. [...]

If the idea of a dwarf hating a goblin just for being a goblin or a drow  an elf or a human a gnome bothers you on an OOC level, this is simply  not appropriate for EFU.

How can there possibly still be any ambiguity about this?

My only concern tbh (since my only issue with racism is how little of it applies to those outside the village, namely towards those that released h'bala even, to be blunt) would be people overlooking their alignment because something is 'acceptable behaviour' - just because something is culturally right say, doesn't mean Good characters should suddenly be able to behave in a manner thats not-Good on a regular basis because of that, it really just means the society they're part of isn't Good in alignment overall.

Cormyr maybe being a fair example, overall a LG/NG kingdom, doesn't particularly have a 'hang the halfbreeds' law despite the recent goblin war; Theres no real clause that would excuse them from murdering goblin prisoners, it would just mean their values changed (which is totally fine).

QuoteTheres no real clause that would excuse them from murdering goblin prisoners, it would just mean their values changed (which is totally fine).

I think I might be misinterpreting you, but... You can`t murder goblins, just as you can`t murder undead. They`re monsters, and ergo- GOODLY races/people would see them EXTERMINATED from the face of Faerun, while NEUTRAL/EVIL ones might TOLERATE them.

The more intolerant races are probably the elves, the dwarves, which by a large margin are good, and the goodly nations are probably the LEAST tolerant  of demonspawns, elementalspawns (which most commoners cant see the difference between a genasi and a tiefling, they`re just outsiders, freaks), and orcspawns.

Even the BIOWARE DEFAULT BIOGRAPHY gives you an hint:
"Wherever you travel, those around you either shun you or drive you away because of your orc blood."

As bad as bioware portrayal is, this is accurate.

Play as your PC sees fit to play. If you want to be an enlightened progressive, feel free (But note! Progressives were probably the most hateful and prejudiced of an American Modern society. :) )

Personally, I feel that, as things progress in game, it's for the better. DOWN WITH HALF ORC SCUM

Racism doesn't exist, it's just called common sense. Evil is very black and white in D&D, though mostly greyish in EFU. Half Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, etc. Even the Cannibal Stargazers! I mean people would probably push to outlaw evil deity worship just like half-orcs but there's another level of shit on angering gods/churches/madmen.

Quote from: Prairial Twenty-Two;276326How can there possibly still be any ambiguity about this?

Well, primarily I was addressing the ambiguity that results from how different Forgotten Realms is from EFU. Howland makes his point that Racism is supposed to be real and alive in EFU, and that's wonderful. It's great. It's delicious.

The problem is that this topic will be buried under "General Discussion" posts within a number of months. And anyone else that comes along to this wonderful community will not even think to ask how Racism is handled in EFU, and should they go by using the Forgotten Realms books to base their characters on, their characters will likely be created to act, as Howland said, "as our enlightened selves".

If we go, and take what Howland says here, expand it a bit and apply it as a canon change to the realms, and write it up as a quick guide for new players to- Y'know what, HERE (//%22http://www.escapefromundeath.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64274%22). Discuss how to adapt Howland's thing into a guide for current and future players on Racism. Go.

I likes me some documentation. I have pedantic tendencies, so sue me.

No, that's perfectly fine, I agree.

It's the fact that older players are still treating it as a point of contention that surprises me.

Quote from: Prairial Twenty-Two;276360It's the fact that older players are still treating it as a point of contention that surprises me.

Eh? What's that? Speak up there young whippersnapper! Young people nowadays... *mutters and grumbles a lot*

More seriously, if an old pedant like me can be that, the prejudice is very real and alive and even otherwise openminded people may have blind spots the size of the Keep. Currently I play Kara and she is fairly OK with anyone who knows how to behave around a town but she is totally prejudiced against wild people with weird cultures. When she learned that Stargazers EAT their dead, she all but ran screaming, and as far as she is concerned, Fury and his friends hang from trees, go ook ook ook and eat bananas when no-one is watching. (No offense! This attitude of hers is all IC, I think Fury is a great character! >.< )

~tOH.

Read most posts, skimmed some. Not sure if it's been stated or not so apologies if it has. But~

Most racists are not just racist against one type of other race. They tend to also be a bit pro their race. Look at any of the big racist groups and you'll see the pattern of hate of one race and lack of tolerances towards the rest that aren't the race they are...

A dwarf that is racist against halforcs for instance, is easily acceptable in either EFU or Forgotten Realms. A dwarf that is racist against halforcs while defending a human city and hanging out with humans and petitioning to ban halforcs from said human city is kinda silly to me. IMO, were he a real racist he wouldn't give a crap about Mistlock and if the babies there were eaten. He would care about his race and his domain. I just think it depends on how racism is actually role played that makes the difference. If you're going to play off a races hatreds then you need to play off their racial pride to make that racism actually appreciable.

On the other hand... The poster-boy Drizzt is famous because he has to live with said prejudices against him. If you want to play a halforc paladin of Ilmater, be prepared to be hated and discriminated against.

It's a game that if you're not having fun with one race or class then make another you do have fun with. [shrug]
:???:

BE RACIST IN EFU! Wear your race like a badge of honor.  Get into a duel over said honor, and BTW, kill all halforc scum! ;) My point is simple: Racism is ugly  and adds a boatload of conflict to EFU.  Though I am still in the clutches of Skyrim atm, EFU always needs MORE RACISM!  Two of my most memorable, fun and conflict laden characters were extremely racist.  The first was a Halforc (Garuush Rakhan) that saw himself as the 'perfect' breed and would put a knife in anyone that would say otherwise (even if that person was a Stygian or a Docks gang leader).  The other was a human (Chumbar Swineservant) that hated halforcs and would let anyone within earshot hear that "them things is bad luck" and worse.  He would openly insult halforcs no matter what their good deeds and standing in society.  If this lead to a heroically good halforc dying....GREAT! Because in Chumbar's view, the only good halforc is a dead halforc.  Racism adds meaningful conflict if played right, its awesome and adds alot to the server.

Quote from: Cerberus;276367A dwarf that is racist against halforcs while defending a human city and hanging out with humans and petitioning to ban halforcs from said human city is kinda silly to me. IMO, were he a real racist he wouldn't give a crap about Mistlock and if the babies there were eaten.[shrug]
:???:

That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.

Well, I don't think that's silly either. There's depths to Balop's character that aren't readily apparent on the surface. It's the reason why I look forward to our rivalry! I think that we all know there are exceptions, especially among PCs and adventurers, and it's how those personalities play out that makes it incredibly interesting to me.

Actually, for that reason, it kind of bugs me when there's an argument going on and everyone that isn't involved stands off to the side, smugly saying how arguments are silly. Arguing your beliefs is the fundamental part of having beliefs. Yes, maybe you'd rather be questing or scheming than arguing in the streets, but it is those arguments that form the basis of a real, living world with people whose beliefs are legitimate, even when they are directly opposed.

Quote from: The Old Hack;276370That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.

A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (i.e.; Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

Quote from: The Old Hack;276370That is not entirely fair, nor is it true to how prejudices work in RL. There are many examples, historical and present, of people who had to go into exile and nonetheless brought all their prejudices along with them. You might argue that said dwarf should just settle in the Delve, but what if he doesn't like that there is actually Withering (if mild) in there? Or even if there wasn't, he might still choose the human town because it is easier for him to profit from his profession there.

And believe me, I know of many RL examples of this sort of exile taking their prejudices along and pursuing them to their utmost, be it out of conviction or simple spite. We currently have lots of them in Denmark, for example.

~tOH.

A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

Quote from: The Pathfinder;276377Actually, for that reason, it kind of bugs me when there's an argument going on and everyone that isn't involved stands off to the side, smugly saying how arguments are silly. Arguing your beliefs is the fundamental part of having beliefs.

I should in passing note that it is possible to stand off side to an argument without either being smug or calling all arguments silly. It is, for example, completely legitimate to either consider a given topic silly or, alternately, to disapprove of the way the participants in the argument are behaving. (ICly, of course! OOCly I think they are doing an awesome job!) Or you might just be a stodgy member of the Watch who resents ALL arguing not because it is silly but because it adds to your workload by stirring up trouble.

Apart from that, I agree. The arguments and those involved in them really add to the mood of the game and thus are not silly at all. :)

Quote from: Cerberus;276378A true racist would show complete racial pride to the point of calling another of his own race or religion a "XXX-lover!" were they to defend yet another race that is not their own (i.e.; Dwarf hates halforcs but defends humans = "Human Lover!"). To hate one differing race while defending another differing race is not racism, it's probably something on a more personal level which in turn removes the word racist from the equation.

Indeed. The name of the game is prejudice rather than racism. And as we have been reminded, ICly the word racism does not belong at all as it carries too many immersion-breaking connotations along with it.

~tOH.

The way Halforcs are treated is certainly unfair, but directly reinforced by canon in almost all instances (from their racial description to how they appear in canon FR stories), and intended to create an atmosphere wherein players rise above this churlish behavior through heroism. I hope people don't conflate real life racism, which is stupid and ignorant, with fake mythological Racism, which is based on -actual- race as Halforcs are infact a different species, not just humans with a different amount of melanin present in their skin.

If you want to struggle against this sort of thing IG, create a half-orc who breaks stereotypes.

Blacklion: Hear hear.

Brok'tor Kildare was of this sort and one of the most memorable characters of EfU: A. He became the Champion of the Order and is currently being remembered by a thread in the public forum.

Edit: Or not. Darn Herostrat and his all too keen eye for Order political correctness! >.>

Sorry if someone already said it, but racism does not usually mean outright aggression.  It means the ones considered inferior are given lower places in society.  The violence comes about when they try to rise above their designated role.
 
A character who doesn't like half orcs may see their rightful places as slaves or cannon fodder in a battle.  It doesn't nessecarily mean he wants them all to die.

Flawless characters are, without exception, boring characters.

When heroes lack vices and villains lack virtues, things feel like they're made out of cardboard.

Superstition, prejudice, etc. are a great character flaw for a hero to have.

Seems almost as if people want to force other characters to be racist because, apparently, there are no other flaws to have.

Any character who thinks half-orcs, halflings, gnomes, and humans all behave similarly and have similar tendencies is probably pretty stupid.

Just to be clear, most NPC's will be prejudiced towards the appropriate FR villain or monster that is contrary to their race or social standing.

That means that:

Humans, Gnomes, et al will hate half-orcs without a question.

Everyone will hate orcs, goblins, kobolds, duergars, ETC ETC.

Your PC is an adventurer, so it's more realistic that they'd carry outlandish views on prejudice that'd clash with traditional viewpoints.

Just don't expect any favors from NPC's, or for them to view your PC as sane in some cases.

Remember:

Prejudice = Normal

Tolerance = Not Normal

Easy enough.

It's more important to inform players that this kind of discrimination can be part of their story than it is to say that it should be. Consider where your character comes from and their experiences and then extrapolate to derive their views on other groups. A mercenary may have served with half-orcs and found them to be good, bad, or (more likely) somewhere in between - maybe they base their entire viewpoint on a racial group on their interactions with a single one. Adventurers are the exceptions in the world of FR. They are (typically) smarter and more cosmopolitan than the average small-town guard or backwater farmer.

The DMs have made it clear where NPCs are likely to stand, but I don't think that should extend too far into the PC territory...

ninja-edit: What I mean to say is that we should be encouraging subtlety and nuance in these kinds of interactions. As an (admittedly unsubtle) example... instead of saying "You can't join my quest group," bring them along but give them less of a share of the spoils. If they ask why, "It's the orcblood tax." And then you've created in-character conflict without being entirely exclusive.

Quote from: Howland;248376Maybe even you're playing a high-wisdom PC with a lot of experience  meeting different races and inclined to judge individuals as  individuals, but if so this should be a part of your concept and be somewhat rare.

Conversly, I play an uthgardian with 8 Wisdom who doesn't have experiance meeting any races who thinks all elves are immortal bloodless fey, Dwarves are born from rock, and halflings are 'vaettirffolken' - Trollings, feycousins. Halforcs of course, are hated orcbloods.

*Uthgardt

Seriously.

Murdering, thieving pcs are common and acceptable, racist and slaver pcs are not, seemingly oocly tabboo.

Actually, I think there is good IC precedent for being anti-slavery.

It's more the race thing that's silly.

Racism isn't inherently evil.

I must admit I've always associated the term 'speciesist' with the manner it is used in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, which is for sheer comedic effect.

Similarly, the only times I have used the given term in EFU is when being disfavored for being a goofy gnome.

Quote from: Porkolt;277632I must admit I've always associated the term 'speciesist' with the manner it is used in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, which is for sheer comedic effect.

"Rincewind had always been happy to think of himself as a racist. The One Hundred Meters, The Mile, The Marathon -- he'd run them all. Later, when he'd learned with some surprise what the word actually meant, he'd been equally certain he wasn't one. He was a person who divided the world quite simply into people who were trying to kill him and people who weren't. That didn't leave much room for fine details like what colour anyone was."

-- Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent

I think this needs to be brought up again as I am seeing a lot of people claiming people are "Racist" or "Prejudiced" and acting like it is some rare horrible thing. Racism is the norm in the world we are playing in and tolerance is what should be viewed as strange. So lets do as the DM team has said many times over and stop using words like this in game as though it is the 21st century and we have been through civil rights and sensitivity training.

On this subject, there have been few examples in Faerun of races actually co-habitating, and those that exist are considered exceptional examples. Baldurs Gate, Watersdeep, Silverymoon, and most historically Myth Drannor (which was considered an idealised, integrated society - even though it still had racial tensions and racism, mostly on the part of the elves towards everyone else)
 
So it is possible to have ideals of racial equality by all means, but to most people, the others races are alien and strange, and the fundamental tendency of people to hate things that are alien and strange is pan-universal.

That being said, let us not imagine racism is in any way an intelligent stance, and doesn't justify evil alignment actions.

When my Order char refers to beings of a race other than human, he calls it "it".  Makes me smile.  It's simple, and relevant.

Playing a xenophobic human character makes it entirely fair play to smack around the cute little halflings just for being halflings.

Prejudice and bigotry, while certainly not in any way 'nice' stances, are part and parcel of not only the real world but also storytelling. Many a story are driven either by conflicts created by them or by one or more characters struggling to overcome them, or even both.

The key here is as always to remember: this is IC, not OOC. It is OK to ICly despise someone for being a half-orc/woman/whatever subgroup you dislike. However, always try to remember that there is a real person behind the IC appearance on both sides of the equation. Try to keep the RP below levels where it may be actively hurtful and remember that this is an attempt to have fun. If you start to feel really uncomfortable, it is better to OOCly tell the other player so and ask him to please let up on you a little bit than it is to start getting resentful and showing it.

As to IC responses... as always, we need to keep a careful eye on our modern perspective. Not all places in the FR share them; a great many of them hold entirely different ones. Orc-ravaged nations might fear and hate half-orcs. If something is a major taboo where you come from, you will obviously recoil from anyone violating that taboo. (Cannibalism being a case in point!) In short: throwing 'racism' at someone as if it is an automatically BAD THING will often result in confusion if not outright breaking immersion. Try to avoid that!

Go Mel Gibson on them Half-Orcs!

Pft.

Down with Humans

Eldreth Veluuthra for Life!

But yes this issue pops up now and again and eventually it tapers off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiWocwb8bIQ

SAVAGES, SAVAGES, BARELY EVEN HUMAN.

Racism is an intelligent stance in Forgotten Realms.

In real life, the different races of people are so genetically similar in almost every way that arguing that there's a substantial difference between the races is dumb.

In Forgotten Realms, the different races are very different.  To their core.  Dwarves are dwarves.  Elves are elves.  Orcs are orcs.  A character would have to be a total moron to think that an elf could be the best metalsmith in Faerun, or that a dwarf could flit about from tree to tree.

Quote from: Big Orc Man;341764Racism is an intelligent stance in Forgotten Realms.
 
In real life, the different races of people are so genetically similar in almost every way that arguing that there's a substantial difference between the races is dumb.
 
In Forgotten Realms, the different races are very different.  To their core.  Dwarves are dwarves.  Elves are elves.  Orcs are orcs.  A character would have to be a total moron to think that an elf could be the best metalsmith in Faerun, or that a dwarf could flit about from tree to tree.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is with characters who just passionately hate a certain race, refuse to quest with them, refuse to share their loot with them, keep insulting them etc...
 
Perhaps if people used other words than 'racist' and 'racism' we wouldn't see these threads pop on the forum?

I don't understand why that's a problem.

It'd be nice to see more racial friction and hatred.

The other races don't exist just to give you stat and ability modifiers - they should be entirely different races.

Quote from: Mentau;341766refuse to share their loot with them,

This is really the only issue I see here. If you want to play a racist pc that's fine, but don't go on a quest with someone and then refuse to share. Regardless of the reason, it's OOCly uncool to deny someone a share of the spoils, or screw them over by leaving them the garbage and then thinly justifying it by saying your PC is racist.

If your PC is really that racist, you should have bowed out of the quest to begin with.

Quote from: Big Orc Man;341773I don't understand why that's a problem.
 
It'd be nice to see more racial friction and hatred.
 
The other races don't exist just to give you stat and ability modifiers - they should be entirely different races.

It's only a problem if you play this crazy racist guy who refuse to breath the same air as Dwarves or Elves, yet expect to be popular and loved by all. It's fine to acknowledge that Elves make poor miners, everyone would agree with that, no problem. But to want to kill them on sight... Makes no sense for such a hater to not be shunned by the majority in a world like Forgotten Realms where the different races live togueter and adventure togueter all the time, from Baldur's gate to Arabel...

Not really true, racial tension is a constant struggle in FR. Baldur's Gate and Arabel are both 99% humans, while Elven and Dwarven cities are almost entirely that race. There are some cities where different races live side by side, but it's a rarity, not the norm. Most races would feel a massive sense of otherness towards other races, as they are unarguably, in terms of outlook, alignment and culture entirely different.

Like I said, Myth Drannor was considered the pinnacle of racial equality. Ultimately racism still played a large part in it's collapse though.

If you're playing a character who goes around killing elves because they're elves, then your problem isn't that you hate elves, it's that you're just going around killing PC's. But giving non-humans (or humans, or any particular race) a hard time, or even going out of your way to give them a beating and mug them, is perfectly acceptable. I would expect a fair amount of hatred between half-orcs and dwarves, even if it isn't violent, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned violent.

And no one should ever expect to be popular and loved by all.

As I'm sure I explained somewhere early on in the thread playing concepts that incorporate prejudice to some degree or another of different "species"/races (i.e. disliking halfling, disliking dwarves, whatever) is a good thing.

... but the real question I have is why threads of this kind tend to generate so much discussion when other, seemingly more relevant topics don't!

Quote... but the real question I have is why threads of this kind tend to generate so much discussion when other, seemingly more relevant topics don't!

If I'm allowed to get into the mess, I think it's due to the amazing feeling that it is to get in touch with different cultures and to the difficulty it is to extrapolate your own.

What we do in this kind of game is to experience and try to live something that might be entirely different from from our day-to-day activities.

And we struggle A LOT to understand cultural point of views that differ from ours. It is challenging, it is hard, many times frustrating and not rarely rewarding.

I would like to see some insights on the Player Compendium Forums about this kind of subject. I know that most races got already some descriptions about how they interact with others. Although, it seems clear to me that we are in need of more insights about this difficult kind of relation.

The revival of this thread seems somewhat unnecessary and extreme.

Especially when the issue is as simple as "don't use the word 'racist' or 'racism' in-game," because it is a concept that does not exist in the setting and leads to breaking immersion of some players.

All other discussion is simply instructive, i.e. the races are clearly defined species - due to the nature of the fiction necessitating this construct that is inherently only the super-imposing of very specific anthropological traits onto a single imaginary 'race' - and as such the thought that one can be unfairly judging a race on its capabilities (racism) is completely null and void because this FICTION requires concrete and objective species differentiation as part of the suspension of disbelief in creating the alternate reality that is Forgotten Realms / EFU.

To conclude. Don't say 'racist'/'racism' in-game. That concept does not exist - abolish it from your brains when you EFU.

I'm going to bump this, as I am watching people try and defend monsters as if they could repent and not be evil. As the original post of howland, try to keep our enlightened mindset out of the game, monsters are monsters, monsters are evil, they aren't supposed to be well liked or defended by goodly people.

Idealists will be idealists, Transit. If someone in game, in character, thinks that's the good thing to do, then I don't see why It has to renter the realm of ooc. Sure, they're stupid and it's probably going to get them killed. But, I don't see how it's immersion breaking for an idealist, ESPECIALLY someone who manages to be an idealist in a setting like this one, might be a LITTLE bit delusional :P

To be honest, I think its more the responsibility of monsters to be monstrous than for idealists NOT to be idealists. One of the most attractive things about EFU is how good and chaotic idealists, who usually skirt by easily in most D&D and NWN worlds, end up fighting an up-hill battle against the scumlords and tyrants when they stick to their principles.

"Friendly" goblins and kobolds should be snacking on babies while their ardent protectors' backs are turned to prove them wrong!

Just to clarify Mass Transit's comment which came because of an in-game argument about faiths that ran into, what I think are, OOC and IC misunderstandings of the principals behind a particular set of beliefs which are being misconstrued as OOC on the part of those playing the opposing side.



Ilmateri belief is that Ilmater offers forgiveness to any creature or deity, no matter how evil they have been... IF

[INDENT]Now let me pause there and remind folks that the Evil alignment for a race is a representation of their actions and inclinations. It is the norm, but not an iron clad statement for there are exceptions to every rule that prove that rule true.[/INDENT]

IF.... they repent (turn away from, change their mind on the nature of their past behavior)and seek penance (perform actions of contrition and reparation for their past evil), committing themselves to doing Good.

The result of this kind of forgiveness would be reformed and good creatures and deities. It is a hopefulness and faith in the supreme power of Goodness that even an evil creature, should it turn away from evil, can be accepted.

By self-sacrificially taking suffering onto himself, Ilmater offers in place his healing. This is an act of mercy (unmerited favor) and compassion (empathy and deep concern for another that moves one to action) that is intended to produce strength of spirit in the penitent. To the wicked, this kind of undeserved sacrifice is supposed to produce a conviction of their evil as their selfish actions are contrasted by true selflessness that produces healing and by that convition they are brought to repentance and turn from evil to good. To continue in evil, is to heap suffering on a good and benevolent deity condemns that creature to a greater punishment for such an evil action.


Now.. this does not mean that Ilmateri think or believe that -ALL- will repent, but only that they hope that SOME will, and they make provision for it.

It is perfectly normal for a devout Ilmateri to hope and desire to see evil creatures repent from their evil. But they will also move to defend others and put down evil creatures that do not turn away from evil. They are simply more patient and introspective than a lot of other faiths when it comes to bloodshed.

It is not OOC for an Ilmateri to consider the merits of a creatures actions and words over the creatures race when opportunity is afforded. And it is most certainly IC for them to advocate that belief and enlightenment to others.

Mikael has helped wipe out a lot of goblins and kobolds.... but an opportunity was given where one kobold child was found and Mikael tried to save it, because it was a child (vulnerable and unable to defend itself and begging for mercy). There was an opportunity for redemption and a new life for it, this created conflict in the party and the kobold was stabbed ("for it's own good" apparently) and it ran away to plot death for all.

There will never be a Drizzt in efu, this server highly dislikes such tropes as elmainster, or, un-evil /clearly/ evil races. Such as neutral duegar or drow, its just not going to happen.

On the mark of an Ilimatri, using the above example they wiped out kobolds and goblins without batting an eye and then spared the child. People don't play children pcs, and any drow you encounter for meaningful rp should not be treated with anything less then hatred and fear as the subrace demands. Unless special circumstances apply with your rp.

-Outcast working with other outcasts
-Enslave
-ect, ect..

My bottom line for subraces in my eyes,
If its different commoners will hate it
If its very different talking physical abnormalities you are KOS
If it has a reputation of evil its evil
There are no "Nice" evil subraces.

I don't think you quite caught the point of my post.

I was not suggesting that what you pointed out was wrong concerning the attitude of EFU.


I -was- suggesting that it is, in fact, In Character for an Ilmateri to advocate redemption as a possibility for any and all. Simply that.

Many things are certainly possible even in efu, but in general creatures and monsters are far more closer to the usual image of their race than anything else. Great exceptions do exist, however.

Here lies one problem though, and it is consistency. If you never speak of the fact or treat the NPC creatures any different, don't suddenly start doing it just because you see special name and it being blue. OOC courtesy is grand, but take a stand for your concept. If it is your concept to give such things a chance, so be it. Pesky little slave servant? Fitting. Such noble and even bit "loonie" person that would think even a monster can chance - go for it.

Remember this as a warning. Monsters can be killed for what they are. Common sense should apply, as always, and we don't necessarily mean you should just silently invisi FD them without any RP, but they are monsters. If a player sides with such creature, you cannot take it upon yourself if you are treated with very much same prejudice as the monster you are defending. At that point, you have no right to bear grudge if you end up killed for it either - though if it's poor RP and you just get hacked down, obviously you have right to demand better. The end result however may not change even if the means and RP would. You may truly end up killed for protecting monsters, and just like your attempts to protect monsters, it is justified for others to be very extreme in their stereotypical hate for monsters and monster "lovers".

I do not object to the occasional extremely tolerant or naively idealistic PC. My only real request is that players do not use the term "racism" or "racist" to attack those who have a normal prejudice against other races/species (half-orcs, dwarves, goblins....).

QuoteTo be honest, I think its more the responsibility of monsters to be monstrous than for idealists NOT to be idealists. One of the most attractive things about EFU is how good and chaotic idealists, who usually skirt by easily in most D&D and NWN worlds, end up fighting an up-hill battle against the scumlords and tyrants when they stick to their principles.

"Friendly" goblins and kobolds should be snacking on babies while their ardent protectors' backs are turned to prove them wrong!

This is fairly accurate, I believe it is important to emphasis that players of monstrous races are expected to portray them monstrously!