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Well, I dont mean this to be a mean or rude thread, but as of lately, most every quest is being spiced, and to the point where you use most of your supplies, or all of your supplies, and usually get zero back, or exp. And for me, its been use supplies, die, respawn XP loss, use more supplies, get none back, no DM exp. I would just like to know if im not the only one who gets that same feeling in the community.

I've enjoyed all the spice I've gotten so far. It's really cool to be fighting goblins, kobolds or whatever and they start calling out specific PCs, that sort of thing. It's been a little tougher, usually they spawn in more enemies (or at least it seems that way), but it's not been anything we couldn't handle.

The lack of reward for spice is getting vexsome, yes, but it's nothing I cannot handle or withstand.

I've noticed it's been getting harder to accumulate supplies and levels.. before I could hit level 8 no problem, now I have difficulty keeping 6, not to mention a decent supply of even basic healing. Then spice comes by and often I just barely pull through, if that.

It'll get better in time, I recommend trying to find non-quest ways of gaining gold and supplies, though, for now, if quests and spice are frustrating you (and death after death with little to no reward can be very frustrating, even if the spice/quest itself was very fun). Such as hunting, alchemy/herbalism, mercantile, mercenary work, bounty hunting, etc. I certainly don't want DM's to spice quests less, though.

I dont want them less, and the two above are too macho to admit it and/or get rezzed then fuck our whole party then get all the loot. *cough*

I understand what you mean Seanzie and things indeed are getting tougher on this server. Although yes, it is good to have some uniqueness and interest occuring on quests but when you finish these sometimes VERY DIFFICULT quests you are left with NO REWARD save for the normal quest drops.
 
EDIT: Usually I limit myself to two quests a day and try to RP as much as I can. Also these quest spices and regular spices keep me definately careful, ready for battle, and on my feet.

Seanzie - discussion and disagreement are fine, but keep it civil.

That was more of a Joke, really.

All of you should go read TheBeggar's post on hoarding consumables and the implications here: http://www.escapefromundeath.com/blog/why-characters-die-true-story

Supplies are meant to overcome the hardest challenges on EfU.  If you're holding back to hoard for the occasional PvP, then what are the DMs spicing you supposed to think?  We balance our spice, and DM quests based on the supplies you have.  If you hold back, then the only person at fault for your deaths is your own self.  And if the challenge is so slim that you don't have to use any significant supplies, then how is it a challenge at all?

Typically if you're not getting rewarded very well, then there are several possible reasons.

1.  You had a near wipe(Most likely not due to not using the aforementioned supplies or as a result of your IC choices) and the DMs had to use some Deus Ex Machina to save you.

2.  OOC attitude.  Players give us an attitude all the time about all sorts of 'negatives' to our quests:  We used to many supplies.  One of us died!  We hate your DMing style.  We hate X.   If we're getting this sort of attitude from players, then why should we feel that we ought to take the event we're doing to completion?

3.  IC circumstances:  If you kill that NPC we took the trouble to try diplomacy with you, then its not likely that you'll be rewarded in the same way.  We certainly allow for players to do what they want, but you have to realize that every action has a reaction, and consequences have to be accepted.

If I'm spicing you, its because I'm considering that maybe, just maybe, I think your PC is cool enough that I might DM for you in the future.   I save my hardest spice for the players that I respect the most, and usually reward well.

If I am given attitude because you used too many supplies in a minor 'spice' situation, then why would I want to consider running a full blown quest for you?  Food for thought.

That would be okay, if I had minor spice, and if I did not use all of my supplies or most of my supplies I would not have written this up. But I did, and the spices, were, well to say the least, on Extremely Hard Mode. And if this was a one time thing, then sure I would be over reacting, but I believe only six of the quests I've done haven't been spiced, and that is not a exaggeration.

Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;2479091. You had a near wipe(Most likely not due to not using the aforementioned supplies).

Actually, I happened to use almost all my healing items, hastes, blurs, and so on one of the quests seanzie refers to.
 
But I try my best not to complain because I am aware of the time and effort the DMs go through to make brilliant, brutal, and/or fun spices and quests.

QuoteSupplies are meant to overcome the hardest challenges on EfU.  If you're holding back to hoard for the occasional PvP, then what are the DMs spicing you supposed to think?  We balance our spice, and DM quests based on the supplies you have.  If you hold back, then the only person at fault for your deaths is your own self.  And if the challenge is so slim that you don't have to use any significant supplies, then how is it a challenge at all?

Well, no. "Supplies" are simply required for every portion of EFU. Whether it's a basic scripted quest, a spiced quest, or a full blown DM event, you need to use them and typically more with each case.

  The things added by a DM may be balanced from their view, and they can of course see what kind of supplies each person has, but in general "spice" is usually an exchange of supplies for XP. Even that begins to dwindle at the higher levels, since most spice seems to be adding more of the same monsters or similar low CR things into it that don't give XP. I personally find that general supplies are not given out enough at the end of spiced quests. Someone who efficiently uses their supply and does well in the spice should probably well rewarded just as they would have been without the spice.

The rest of that statement is quite true though. Hoarding your supplies is just foolish and I see it all the time in the packs of dead people.

As for the rest, you bring up the fact that people complain about their rewards twice and make it appear overly common. If you find it to be so common then perhaps it holds some bit of truth. We're all a bunch of whiners, we know it, but people will be far less willing to use their dwindling supplies when they know/feel that they won't get them back from you.

Also, stuff like this happens in groups and one or two can ruin it for everyone. This is part of the reason I had long ago suggested the warrior lockers and their various other forms be more common than a big pile of stuff at the end. If you notice one person using their supplies well and doing things in a way you find fitting then you can easily hand them that at the end and give the slacker something more minor.

This is probably the fourth post I've tried to make in this topic, so I'm going to try to keep this as concise as possible.

I agree with Brittany in all regards, especially when it comes to people hoarding supplies. I frequently see players shout "no more healing!" and then miraculously pull a cure serious trinket out of their ass when they get dropped to badly wounded. And that's fine; people want to look out for themselves. During my stay here, I've frequently seen people rewarded for roleplaying and sensible actions on DM quests and spices. It's inspiring really, knowing that you're being watched and rewarded for bringing flavor and fun to the server. It helps me, as a player, want to do more with my lousy, cheesy fighter wielding an oversized axe.

However, I have to take Seanzie's side on this argument despite the tone of some of his posts. I'm frequently finding that I'm going through literally all of my supplies in order to simply have a chance of surviving what I've come to find is the new norm for 'minor' spice. And this is all good and fine if the rewards were anywhere near some semblance of the supplies I'm spending to just get to the end of a quest. I have fun on spice, I enjoy having DM involvement in my character's life. It's all good fun. But I feel incredibly disheartened when a quest's mobs are tripled, my supplies utterly exhausted, and the only real reward is typical quest loot and extra experience -- and that's assuming that the party leader hasn't staked a claim on the only useful trinkets and you haven't, indeed, died during the supply-exhausting spice. What makes this all even more frustrating is when I see average, Joe Blow mobs throwing back cure critical potions like they're water and seeing my character pull out sinews and tooth from their corpses and little else.

I'm fine with having to fight intelligently when a DM is around. I love the extra flare of fighting off kamakaze goblins and assassins when I just expected your standard granary run. However, there is absolutely nothing intelligent in a battle resting on the difference between a DM's endless supply of potions with the players' relatively limited supply, especially when the reward is an extra potion or two, a pat on the back, and the boredom of having to reorganize your pack.

Don't get me wrong, I love EfU. I don't think I'll ever change servers. I'm not trying to come off as unappreciative. I love the community, I love the setting, and I love the challenge that it all presents. But lately, I feel like spice has been something I've wanted to avoid rather than something I want to enjoy and embrace.

Just a bit of constructive criticism. Take it or leave it, I just felt I should share my opinion.

Just a few things to add -

Quest spice isn't supposed to necessarily always leave you where you started, supply-wise.  It depends on a lot of factors!

One big one is that actions have consequences.  If three of you run up to melee the goblin with a suicide vest strapped around him, things won't end well!

Similarly, if you metagame a quest's normal scripted layout and assume there is no lizardfolk assassin around that corner, your carelessness can get you rocked hard!

I have seen groups hold off 30 of enemy X, only to be wiped by 5 of enemy X at an unexpected point (but not spawned directly on them).

That means the difference is OOC expectation!  If you don't assume that quests are "normal" or "spiced", but rather "?", you'll survive a lot better.

Similarly, if you have a massive high-level group and you flee from a woodpecker with a lazy eye, you tend to forfeit rights to complain.

The setting's different areas demand, in my opinion, different amounts of difficulty.  The Crossroads shouldn't be death town, but the heart of H'bala's Withered Lands SHOULD be terrifying!



One last thing: There are often hidden rewards for spice.  Namely, "Whoa, that guy's staying in-character like a badass (whether that means bravely winning, fleeing, or what have you) and not complaining to his mother!  Sick, I'll run a quest for him."  And then, the end result is often groovy loot and stuff.

[FONT="]A few choice thoughts on Spice-[/FONT]

[FONT="]I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.[/FONT][FONT="] I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.[/FONT]

  [FONT="]The spice must flow...[/FONT]
 

• [FONT="]Who is the      little one, a pet perhaps? Will she deserve my special attentions? [/FONT]

• [FONT="]Why prolong the      inevitable? I will kill you! — I will kill him! [/FONT]

[FONT="]He who controls the spice, controls the universe![/FONT]

  [FONT="]An in the desert, words to live by “Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worm”[/FONT]
   
A world without spice is tasteless..

DM spice is great for RP and immersion, supplies are transient and if anything break immersion. If you want your character to do something great in the world, to survive in places where it is often difficult to do so, you'd better have those potions and consumables hotkeyed and ready to be used!

One just has to deal with the lack of supplies and keep on fighting! You'll get it all back in the end, one way or another. :)

I have to say I understand all sides of the argument here.

"Feeling unrewarded", however that might take shape, is never an appealing reason to play a game. So as long as everyone gets -something- out of playing, even if its just a pat on the back I think we're all good. And when I say everyone here, I mean DMs as well as players. We're all meant to be enjoying this.

My main suggestion would be for DMs who have done some seriously intense spice or DM quest, where some or many PCs end up worse off on both supplies and experience because they died or whatever, is just make sure they receive and ooc tell or something saying: "sorry about the hurt, but you did well, you roleplayed well etc"

It can be hard to keep track, but I think acknowledging that someone has been made worse off by the spice/quest goes a long way to help them just enjoy the attention and the game for being a game!

My only other comment is that for some of us, we just aren't mechanically proficient enough to use all our supplies under pressure! I know for myself, a number of times I have forgotten what I have in my pack, or i'm so terrified ooc-ly about saving myself and allies that I just can't think quick enough what the most efficient thing to do mechanically would be.

The time it takes for me to sort out what I should do, is usually the time it takes for me to die. And then the situation is even worse, as then all my quickslots are gone for the remainder of the quest, and my inventory is a mess for the remainder of the quest... so decision making takes even longer.

So when you next discover that corpse with a pack of useful supplies, think of me. I probably was mashing my keypad and clicking things randomly in a state of panic moments earlier.

OMG, DM is giving me spice, plot and attention, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Sometimes players overreact. Sometimes DMs go heavy handed and, victory or defeat, don't really toss in anything extra besides whatever randomly dropped on the mobs.

For players, using supplies effectively is a fine art. Blurring potions, when used in the right circumstances, are less costly than the healing (and numerous actions used for healing during combat). You have to understand the spells well and using that understanding, strike an effective balance of what to use, when, and holding back when it isn't necessary. Achieving that perfect zen of consumption and hoarding is how the more mechanically adept players get ahead. The only other bit of advice I can give you is some situations in EFU:M aren't survivable; if it seems hopeless, that means it probably is. Drink an invis and leave. If you have something like a paladin code, demand everyone else retreat then do so after they have some distance on you.

Attention is nice, but ideally, reward should scale with difficulty. This isn't always the case. More mobs, though offering more chances at random loot like medicine bags and rags, is not scaling reward. Possessing mobs and using intelligent play for casters and the boss should also merit more reward, and in my experience, very rarely do.

And of course, the opposite is also true; some DMs are willing to give ample reward, but expect to challenge groups that when taken on average, really aren't all that mechanically proficient or well supplied. I can offer no concrete advice here - good balance where players feel challenged yet rewarded is a zen art as well. You can only strive to do better in such circumstances.

I for one welcome the return to how EFU looked for a period in the Underdark and early EFU:A, when not every two weeks old character was lvl 8+ with pages of supplies.

This level of spice is excellent and immersion heightening.

I'm always someone who likes to speak for the variety and "reality" of the world we play in. Sometimes you will face something you cannot necessarily defeat, or end up in situation where you've failed and lost the chance to overcome your obstacle. There isn't always even reward for it, and retreat is often an option that people refuse to use. You need to remember, you all have dead characters. That if anything should remind you, that you can fall, you can die and that you can also fail.

Actions do have consequences. Sometimes this action is to choose the road forward and facing that obstacle, instead of withdrawing. Don't assume anything when something happens, and don't assume too much on quests. If you just play by with what you see infront of you - then you'll be fine. Sometimes you won't get rewarded, but who knows what happens the time after that when you've valliantly pushed through in hard spot without gaining much.

I like spice myself, but if things get too hard you could always ask a dm to calm things down a bit during. They're very reasonable. =]

Its not so much the spice or attention, as the fact that in the end one character is happy, or two, but the rest are left in the dust.

Quote from: Seanzie;247946Its not so much the spice or attention, as the fact that in the end one character is happy, or two, but the rest are left in the dust.

I'll go ahead and say it.

Hagar doesn't split loot fairly.

Not loot, exp and lvl loss.

I would agree with Seanzie about the XP part as well. That is usually what I see as a common pat on the back reward.

I feel obligated to remind you that even on normal vanilla scripted quests sometimes people die and you need to use many of your supplies simply to survive.

That aside however, I am not sure I quite understand the root of your frustration. At first I thought it was greedy people who take the lion's share of loot at the end, but now you say "Not loot, exp and lvl loss.".

Well, I honestly have little advise on that part. What I can say is that there's no shame in playing it safe during a quest. Unless your concept absolutely demands you charge into a wall of death, you can take every measure possible to survive. Even with that in mind many of us "veterans" or people who are just gifted when it comes to the mechanics of NWN still die sometimes. Sometimes we die a lot. But that's just something everyone has to deal with sooner or later. Place focus upon your concept rather than level, and it won't feel as disheartening to continue at a low level simply because you enjoy the character for what it is.

Well, it was IC for me to yell out "Attack me" When a lvl 5 druid was getting owned by the really hard special boss, and then the thing just killed me with no mercy. I loose my levels, get no exp, and get no loot. So its a mixture of both, mostly to the I would rather have my lvls back then the loot that was possible.

Yelling "attack me!" at a big scary monster, especially one that had just recently subdued and spared you, is fine - but also likely will result in the IC consequence of death!

As someone who is a "mechanic noob", doesn't quest often and generally otherwise fitting the template for "going to probably end up dead when stuff gets hard" player (ask LPFF), I have also noticed the increased spice lately. In particular, one rough streak a few days ago was going on a hard DM quest, using up all my supplies during it and losing a level, and then ending up facing down a massively spiced Gnolls quest the next time I was online. After this series of events, I've got to say-

I LOVE IT. Yes, it's rough to lose your supplies and your XP. Yes, I sit there cursing at the bloody servant of Khelemvor in the bloody fugue plane just like the rest of you. But in the end, I play this game to experience the story, to roleplay, to take part in the awesome adventures that cause the pages of the story to get written. Losing all my supplies will have catastrophic short-term consequences, but in a few days, they'll be back, even with my questing tempo. Losing my xp is a pain, since it takes me so long to build it up, but they are only numbers, and they do not greatly affect the story.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is; Shit happens, it sucks, but it's all a matter of perspective. Instead of seeing what you lost mechanically; Look at what you gained story-wise. You got to take part of something special, where one of the authors of the world took special interest in you, and which might very well lead to awesome stuff down the road. Supplies and levels can be gained back, but -actual- experiences are trickier to compensate for.

Don't get me wrong now; I fully understand and share the pain of losing so much mechanical stuff - I've a fair few times also been there, slamming my fist in my desk and cursing at the monitor, but every time, in a few days, it's been fine again, and when I think back to it I remember not the numerical experience I lost, but the experience of the story that I gained. I think much can be made to feel a great deal better with a change of focus.

Quest spice, is something I love to encounter, when I know its coming. I am guilty at having rage when a DM has surprised me and the group I am questing with at the last second. But nothing that a few words in tells or on irc can not settle.

The truth is, spice is amazing. I for one hate the grind, I hate repeating the same quests over and over. Normally because i'd rather be doing something else, or because im expecting someone in the party to do something stupid resulting in another quest death. I welcome spice because it makes players actually focus, and improve their game in most cases.

Yes, its frustrating to die to it, and yes it can cost allot, even everything in supplies. But to be honest, id rather fight a challenge and come out on top, than simple hoard potions and be some pvp nut job.

Some of my best experiances on EFU have been through spice, I still remember Alyssara and Talir double spicing corals. Or Alyssara spicing ToM, a fight where I used everything, stabilized 4 times, and stil died with the boss on 4hp.

I think the main problem here isnt that spice killed you and ate your supplies, its that you like the majority of the server. Myself included believe that supplies levels and build decide important events through PvP.

The OP made it very clear what their issue was, so try not to read too much into it. A feeling of dissatisfaction from being in a situation where they had to spend everything that they possessed and still died without any physical, monetary or xp reward. I can sort of agree. DM spice is always a blast, and is -tons- of fun. Truly, it is, and some of it is so creative. I just love it. I can absolutely see how it is disheartening though when you are drained dry from it and unrewarded, just to be left without the necessary objects required for future quests. It's all fun though. You win some, you lose some, just be happy that a DM took the time out of their schedule to do something special for you, and make sure to thank them at the end even if they did figuratively shove a spiked flail up your arse.

Some players may benefit from re-reading the post Brittany Panthas linked, with a focus on the alternative routes to getting past nasty things, and the IG clues that many DMs leave in spiced areas that are often overlooked.

Couple that advice to Howland's excellent post "How to Accomplish Things" (or whatever it's called, I'm too lazy to link it right now), and you have an opportunity to really Role Play through and with the DMs. Not everything has to be accomplished at the end of a sword. If you want to attempt to do something outside normal game mechanics, then send the DM channel or the DM running the event a message / tell about what you want to attempt.

I find that in situations described by the OP the best thing to do is walk away from the computer screen and take a few moments to calm down and recollect my thoughts.

Yes, situations such as this can be frustrating, disheartening and annoying but often they can be the situations that help forge your character and allow you to rebuild. I believe that not everything should always work out, and situations like this can be wonderful in terms of characterisation.

Supplies are there to be used. Spice is awesome as it means that the DM's are actively making your characters stories that must more entertaining. Personally, I would rather have jack shit supplies but get spice as it relieves the tedium of repeating the same quests doing the same things.

Yes its hard. but its also hell fun. Efu:M is a rough server, challenges are to be expected.

I thought the whole point of supplies was to be able to take more challenges and have fun?

I like spice.
Moar spice pwease.

Low Supplies? - Commit crimes.

Low Levels? Character Advancement Bonus up to Level Six.

There's no shame in admitting to a DM that you don't want spice. If you're honest and straightforward about it I assure you a DM will welcome it ahead of time rather than an aftermath of disgruntledness.

How to alienate DM team

step 1: Complain publically about spice

Some people love any form of challenge, some people hate it.

But if anyone ever has any issues, you know the best thing to do is to take it up with the DM personally, in a polite and reasonable fashion.  And if they don't agree with your criticism, take it up with another member of the team and see what they say.

I'll be honest, this whole thread baffles me. I consider it an honor to have a quest spiced, because that means someone that is in no way obligated to hang with you and do something cool for you has chosen to take time out of their busy schedule to make your play-time more exciting.

Yes sometimes it goes wrong. Sometimes you lose a level or burn a lot more supplies than you wanted to. But that's not the important part, you can get levels and supplies back. The important part is the experience of something new. The thrill of the unknown and unaccustomed to.

My opinion on it anyhow.

When you dwell on your losses too much, you get depressed and start trying to blame other people. It's EfU, shit happens. Effective questing is tough, when you balance out the supplies used and how aggressive you are just enough to make sure you get through the quest without getting butchered. A lot of it relies on hiding behind those folk who take all the supplies. It's not particularly glorious, it's just something that has to be done, as they've got the best bet of surviving, so you're better off flanking with them. Everyone in the party should just focus on supporting the best warrior, by healing, flanking, buffing, etc.

When you get spiced, it helps not to think about what kind of loot or XP the DM will give you.. because you may very well not get any of it. Think instead about what kind of crazy-ass monster you get to kill at the end of it, and brag to people about when you get back to town. That at least is something you're almost guaranteed to get.

Frustration is part of the game, you can't have challenge without it. However, it's still just a game, and all those things you lost can be recouped. Besides, sometimes your character has to lose, and badly, because that makes the successes they achieve all the sweeter. The best, most well-rounded characters typically have a full range of experiences to draw from. Being beat up and dragged down builds character!

The main reason that I get disappointed with a death/no reward situation is that it often times pushes me back to the same stage that I was at days ago. We all put a lot of time into our characters and into this story, so when we lose progress, you can compare it to your little brother throwing your lego battleship at the wall when you just built it.

Still, I love DM spice, and you should embrace it. Take it as a chance to show the DM what your character is all about. It might just intrigue them enough to want to DM for your character another time.

We're all looking to have fun, and we're all far from perfect. I can understand both sides very well, so long as there is no pointing fingers.

Perhaps this will give you a wee bit of perspective Seanzie ...

Mechanically, I FAIL miserably at any RPG game of any sort that has anything vaguely resembling real-time battle.  I'm well aware of this, but yet I still love RPG games so I continue to play them.

EFU is a tough server.  Especially for those of us that aren't game-mechanically inclined.  And it seems that with each incarnation it gets a bit tougher.  I know there are those here that would disagree with that.  We have players of every level here.  Though on the whole, from my perspective, it seems our server tends to attract the better players.  That means the DMs have to build the server to the overall skill level of the player base. Remember, it's their world, we just play in it.

I also tend to have a love/hate feeling about DM spice.  I hate it sometimes because I know it probably means I'm either going to die or drain every supply I have to survive it.  But I also love it because it means that the group I'm with is dynamic enough in some fashion to attract the attention of the DMs.  Again, what is rough spice for some is easy for others.  

You also have to remember that the DMs don't become DMs because they suck at this game.  They get to be DMs because in one aspect or another they epic win at this game.  So generally speaking, what they might deem as easy you might deem as hard.  And yes, we have had some very hard DMs that will push you to every mechanical limit you have.  We've also had DMs that are the polar opposite and want to see PC story advancement and will go easier battle-wise on you or give you a lil extra when needed.

There's always going to be players that are better and worse than any given one player.  There are those that are going to be treasure hogs, those that are XP hogs, those that charge into battle (even to the detriment of the rest of the party), those that are mechanical gods, etc etc etc.  So what does that mean for the average Joe Player.

It means you build and play a PC that fits your style and ability.  I long ago accepted the fact that I'll never be able to play a "bulldozer" or a wizard extraordinaire.  I just don't have that mechanical ability.  Once I accepted that fact, I quit playing the "I wish I could do/be ..." game with myself.  Therefore my level of disappointment dropped considerably.  I make and play PCs that I can realistically handle.  I concentrate on what I /CAN/ do.  It makes it so much more enjoyable.  If you want to stretch your abilities or try something new, play the original content or a different server while you test it out.  Then bring back what you've learned to your playing in EFU.

Yes, there are times that it will be IC for you to join a quest that you know you'll probably end up on the bad end of.  Accept that at the start of it, do the best you can do, and be pleased with what you have been able to do.  There's also going to be times that you can run the other damn way from any given quest or DM event.  Just because it's a DM event doesn't mean you have to participate.  If it doesn't make sense to do it, don't.  If the group that asks you to tag along because they need another player doesn't fit with you or your skill level, don't go.  It's that simple.

Another thing to remember.  There is crap that happens that is outside the control of DMs and players.  My most frustrating and infuriating PC death was due to the simple game mechanics and lag that hit.  There was nothing I or the DMs could have done about it.  I did find out a useful piece of information from it though.  There used to be a built in timer as to how often you could chug a heal potion (don't know if there still is).  That meant I was in the middle of a DM lead event that the entire server was involved in, I got cornered, and effectively caused my own death because I lagged out my system trying to spam heal myself. Sometimes proper timing is everything.

Sometimes we do cause our own deaths.  I tend to be a hoarder of things.  I get the "I may need that someday/sometime" syndrome.  Then I either forget I have it cuz I have so much crap, or can't find it when I need it.  I also get a terrible case of "battle-freeze".  My head just shuts down and I can't think of what I need to do.  Any more, I tend to let the other players get the "coveted" items, simply because I know I can't/won't be able to use them as well or effectively as they can.

It usually goes back to knowing yourself, your playing style, your strengths and your weaknesses.  Be the best you can be within those boundaries and you'll enjoy your gaming much more.

Bless the black little hearts of the players I've had the privilege of playing with that have put up with my ineptitude.  I'm sure there have been a few that put up with me only because it made sense for their PC to deal with my PC, but behind the monitor are calling me every sort of name under the sun and cursing my very existence.  Just as there's probably been a few that have looked forward to the interaction of our PCs.  (and I've felt the same about a few)  I thank each and every one of them.  They and the DMs are what make this place in all it's glory and ugliness. :)

Anyway ... sorry for the long post.  Hopefully it'll help.

Some of my most memorable times on EFU resulted in TPK's , my XP loss, consumable usage, etc...
 
  I've had times where I escaped death, only to charge back in trying to save an IC ally, knowing in advance my PC would die.  Other times, I have used thousands of coin worth of potions just to stay alive.  Hell, I even got Xp once while I was in the fugue because of the way I went down.

  Thing to remember is, it's still just a game.  No one wins all the time, just have fun.

I've definately felt that frustration you're describing Seanzie, and alot of people have, despite nearly all positive praise of spice. Something that helped me -really- enjoy it was surviving it!

I've heard alot of talk about potion hoarding, but maybe a factor you're not as aware of is character build. For instance, I like smashing monsters ALOT. So I plan my PC to take full advantage of, generally, 2/3 things. HP, AC, and Saves. I plan my class choices and all my feats/skills/stats toward this end and get a pretty sturdy PC. With HP you can take a 90pt crit. With AC you can brush off average attacks. With Saves you don't need to worry about spells or effects like death gaze.

I'm not advocating that build is different than concept. If you want to do other things, like be a leader, you still need a positive CHA score. If you want to be master strategist you can't have a negative WIS score. So I hope this helps, feel free to send a PM or ask around if you have any questions!

I guess a lot of the people who've posted didn't understand that I do LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE spice, I just don't like loosing levels after having six spiced quests in a row with 0 supplies, my character had a few supplies, which I did not think to hoard, but I'm not using a improvement potion on a scripted quest, as a lvl 5 druid. It just was a bit of pent up anger and I might have been better to talk to a DM instead of posting it here, I am sorry if I'm causing anybody headache.

I have had some of my most exciting, tense, actiony times during spice, and I hope to any DM who is discourages to put me through spice because of this post reads this. I am not wise and old, I'm young and rash and therefore do rash things. Thats no excuse but Its the truth. Anyways, I apologize once more to any whom i've offended!

I personally have enjoyed the raise in spiced quests/DM events of late, i think they have been very challenging and potentially rewarding depending on the risk your willing to take. In most casses i have found myself using -alot- of supplies but you will generally find the reward is based on risk. In general i find it to be fun (Because i like a challenge) and i've seen alot of interesting rewards (Unusual loot/Unique items).

Great work from the DM team imo.

I just try to focus on the story and the characters and try to forget about the loot and levels, even though I'm /really/ into mechanics and love PvP and all that. It's not as bad when you get face smashed this way. =P

The only thing I'd wish different was to see some more consistency as to how NPCs fight, because such encounters usually seem lacking in such. Like for example:

*One time had an NPC jump out of invis and cast a 26 DC Death Spell on me, instantly killing me. Normal. Happens. Part of the game.

*Another time my party encountered an epic NPC, whom kept OOCly holding back although he had all the reason to just kill us as soon as he could. Like, for example, he'd drop one or two of us into the negatives, and then run away to "reposition", instead of just finishing them off, thus leaving an overall "artificial" feel to the entire battle, like as if the DM was choosing who he wanted to live or die.

I understand that big encounters are hard to balance, and that DMs might miscalculate things sometimes, but I would really just prefer for the DM to pause the game for ten or fifteen seconds to re-adjust the stats on the big boss of epic, instead of having to make the NPC "forget" to finish that dude that's helplessly sprawled on the floor five times in the same fight so that he doesn't wipe the floor with the entire party.

Oh yeah, and stop giving us potions for rewards. We get tons of those already!

I mean, really. I always have more potions and consumables than I have quickslots! >.>

And this is without "hoarding".

Honestly, I'd rather get a /very/ minor improvement to the gear that I'm wearing, like for example getting a +2 Lore +2 Spellcraft tunic when my wizard has none instead of getting those two sludge potions.

But that's just me. =P

No, please DO keep giving us potions as rewards on quests.  I love it when the group gets a huge stock of potions, it helps equip us for next time!

give me the potions, not him.

Myself and Seanzie are both ready to fight to the death, and possibly kill Jagged along the way, to make sure you keep giving us potions as quest rewards!  It is simple loot to give and ALWAYS appreciated!

Quote from: Barber;248077make sure you keep giving us potions as quest rewards! It is simple loot to give and ALWAYS appreciated!

In my preferance I myself enjoy interesting items/loot and experience. Although it is hard to regain what supplies is lost, you will eventually be refilled.

Your fighters should be ashamed giving sludge potions to wizards.

I think this has gone off topic.


Summation: Spice without reward or xp is sometimes frustrating to handle.

Sometimes spice is a prelude to dm loot or possible dm quests.

Spice is most always appreciated.

The best stories are not linear. 4 weeks of playing should /not/ make you level 10, fully stocked, fully kitted killing machine. One should never assume a quest, barring the simplest of deleveries, will net a reward. That is metagaming. You are rolling the dice everytime you leave the town, hoping to scrape by or strike it rich. Scripted quests without spice are usually a guranteed reward-- and thus lead to an idea of linear progression that is anathema to a good story and game world. Spice, with great rewards, or terrible losses makes the game world unpredictable.

It seems to me that the DM team has been doing an excellent job of spicing /everyone/ so rest assured you're all in the the same situation when it comes to conflict with other players -- a situation of uncertainty. PvP is not always settled by powerbuilds and endless potions, it is usually decided by choices, alliances and chance. I have lost many PCs (powerfuly mechanicaly monstrous PCs) to such things, but also won improbable fights by the same stroke.

Spice helps create the gameworld of danger and uncertainty that makes EFU fun. Sometimes we must bend our characters to the circumstances of poverty and ill luck they have suffered and sit begging on the street for the supplies needed for adventuring. And sometimes we should take our hoard of consumables and strike out for power over others and glory. Always though, we should play our characters and ask ourselves: how would they react to the uncertainty and dangers of the mist...?

If the true goal of the DM team is utter unpredictability in the gameworld, my sincere recommendation is to automate higher end spice and random encounters to the highest extent possible in order to avoid the inevitable intrusion of bias in the gameworld and to make things as truly as random, or fair, as possible.

Of course, the policy of the DM team has always been, in so far that I am aware, that the most interesting PCs get the most interesting perks/encounters, which is not necessarily a bad approach to things. Certainly many of the PCs that have risen to prominence and accomplished great acts have had DM help in many forms along the way. One might even go so far as to say permission for most of said acts. Considering the nature of PWs and the behavior of the average RPG player, again, this is not necessarily a bad thing. This accepted practice however seems to go in the face of everyone being spiced equally with equal reward, and what's more, seems to be more the reality of the situation as opposed to this recently suggested ideal of mutual uncertainty.

The problem is, despite intents, when characters are spiced and rewarded in drastic variance by virtue of having different DMs or their characters being less interesting due to newness or other factors, it creates an environment where people feel unfairly treated. Certainly we all want an atmospheric gameworld, but if I can relate my failures or trials to specific DMs as opposed to a dice rolling machine, all that is created is an atmosphere of hostility and alienation. The DM team must endeavor to provide rewards equal to the challenges faced and attempt to be as uniform as possible in this regard - it is not good enough to act on whim or for one or more to be unduly heavy handed and miserly.

I know that my experience is improved when I have more people to interact with - indeed, the lifeblood of any server is the amount of bodies it can attract and the length of time it can maintain their interest. Any policy or person that goes in the face of this even inadvertently is counter intuitive.

As far as spice reward goes, I am a big fan of the Warrior Lockers, Thieves' Kits, Arcanist Satchels etc that come in various sizes and powers. Means there's something for everyone and it's simple to match risk and reward if a team's had more than just a few haste potions thrown on the boss. As far as spice goes, it's at it's most fun when it's something surprising and interesting, rather than the feeling that we're getting WTFPWN thrown down. I've been spiced 3 times on gnolls this week in various ways. My favourite was the DM who added the odd attack behind us, and spiced a normally empty room with a Boulder Drop Trap. Both of these changed the nature of the battle and stopped it feeling routine. On the other hand, if I see certain DM's names in the chat log, I start quickslotting my Cure Crits and Retreat potions... :P

It's good to see a DM taking an interest in your party, but as it shows here it can feel like they're out to get your PC if they don't follow up tough spice with an XP, plot or supplies reward. It's not wanting to profit off everything but to show that the DM was spicing you for everyone's entertainment rather than aiming to burn some resources off the PC. Even crazy spice can be dealt with if you throw all your PCs resources at it, but that runs him out. So it's no good saying "Should have used that Sludge Drink" if there's no feeling the PCs would get anything back. Otherwise, spice can look like like a punishment for doing well enough to have supplies without also being a PC 'deserving of reward'. Semli puts it better than I do.

Thoughts upon finishing four pages of this topic;

It seems to me that if the NPC who hired you to go into X to kill Y, so to speak, did not tell you there would be Q, J, and Z there as well, and thereby nearly caused your death (or indeed, caused the deaths of your companions), it would probably be wise to further the RP and appraise him of your displeasure.

And then beat him senseless.  

If you're looking for reward on quests ICly - and most people are - it makes sense that, well, that's what you'd be looking for on quests.  If the risks are outweighing the possible gains, there's no reason to continue on unless there's a prospect of gain.  I'm not saying you should purposely avoid DM spice; I'm saying that if you're in it for the gold, act like it.

If, however, your character is going on a quest to save the Merpeople of Little Mermaid Land from the Evil Beast of Killgorn, the reward is the satisfaction of having done something good and right, and possibly the love of the Merpeople.  This is not palpable, and it will not carry you into the next epic battle with any chance of survival, but hell; that's the risk you take as an adventure.

Risk vs. Reward?

I'm busy building new quests and exploration areas for EFU:M, but once that's done.

I'll give you all some salt to go with those spices.

I feel that this thread is somewhat distracting and misleading, although there's a lot of nice nuggets of wisdom sort of scattered in here. What I would focus on is that if players have specific problems with a specific incident to contact the DM involved, or myself if it goes beyond that. However, if you actually look closely, basically no one is really even complaining more just philosophizing about spice in general.

But the plethora of posts about the topic makes one almost imagine there's a problem.

At any rate, it is very easy to avoid spice. We really don't want to spice players that do not desire it.

It's nice to have some new DMs who are into it recently, and I think it's something positive we can all appreciate that we have some nice DM activity nowadays.

Ok, so. Interesting posts.

We've had threads like this is the past and the mantra is roughly the same and it's something that I have always had trouble appreciating a lot of the mindsets that lead to these trains of thought. I won't repeat a lot of what has been said already, but I do feel that I need to say something, so I have focused instead on certain paragraphs that have... stood out to me in particular. Please note replies are not to the specific poster in general they are just examples of certain things that twigged in my mind.

Quote from: Haromaro;247914I'm fine with having to fight intelligently when a DM is around. I love the extra flare of fighting off kamakaze goblins and assassins when I just expected your standard granary run. However, there is absolutely nothing intelligent in a battle resting on the difference between a DM's endless supply of potions with the players' relatively limited supply....

You talk as if the DMs are your opponents, like people on opposite ends of a table playing Chess or Yu-gi-Oh or whatever you kids play today.  We're not out to "win" or "beat the other side"We're out to make the quest as exciting as possible, sometimes that means intrigue, sometimes that means white knuckle OH GOD I AM GOING TO DIE. To me, personally it feels like the DMs are just another mob. Those stone lizards were hard as fuck, but they didn't drop enough loot. Blaaaaargh.
 Those DMs were hard as fuck, but they didn't drop enought loot BLAAAAARGH.

Quote from: Haromaro;247914especially when the reward is an extra potion or two, a pat on the back, and the boredom of having to reorganize your pack.

What about the part where you just got a white knuckle OH GOD I AM GOING TO DIE rush and a break from the standard quest that you may have done 20 times over. If you can only look at rewards in terms of the loot, XP, gold triangle, IMO that's actually quite a shame. Of course, maybe you WANTED the same quest as you did last time, maybe the fact that it was a break from the norm was what pissed you off in such a manner. What always drew me to NWN in the first place was the uncertainty in the quests, the fact that there were human beings behind the steering wheel instead of mindless computers who would tailor the reward to the risk. Of course, for those that DON'T want that, there are systems that do a much better job of it that us (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com)

Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;248019The main reason that I get disappointed with a death/no reward situation is that it often times pushes me back to the same stage that I was at days ago.

It does? It does if you only consider your character in terms of his loot and XP and nothing else, ignoring how your character will have developed over the hardships they have faced over the last few days and relationships they will have forged with other characters on the server to boot.
 If all that is irrelevant to you and the only thing showing up on your radar is your ability to fuck shit up. You should really consider what you're doing on a Self proclaimed Hardcore PW Story Server when there are plenty of Action servers where you can level faster, level higher and there's no risk of shit like this happening at all.

Quote from: THEDiamondJ;248049Thing to remember is, it's still just a game.  No one wins all the time, just have fun.

My final question is this. What IS winning? How do you WIN EfU? Is it by having the most gold? Having the best Loot? Being the Highest Level? Is it by having the most PvP kills?

Can you really WIN EfU? No.

And so if you can't WIN, how can you LOSE?

There is no Winning or Losing, there is only the story that your character writes as you play him/her. If that story includes bitter defeat from time to time? Fuck it, it's just another chapter. If you planned for your character to become a bad ass paladin and he fell, and ended up being some fucked up crime lord. would you consider that losing? Or, is it just characters progressing as they will always progress?

Ok I'm ranting now. Peace out,

No one can win EfU because someone already won, so we lost.

Quote[03:32]Dakarai did indeed win, with more than twice the number of kills as any other PC or NPC

I'm sorry, I just had to. :P

Actually, I completely agree with you about the incredible satisfaction you can get out of those white knuckle moments. I eluded to this slightly in my post and in previous "drafts" of it I went into the story extensively, but there was one recent instance of DM spice were my character died and I actually enjoyed watching him be sent to the Fugue. It was a granary quest with Hagar, Shaye, and (I think?) Seanzie's druid where, after the scripted quest was over, we were attacked from behind by goblin kamakazes and assassins.

We didn't have a lot of supplies and most of us were susceptible to the assassin's paralysis. There was a moment where my character was stunned by an assassin and he went after my PC with the righteous fury of every mistreated goblin. Everyone crowded around the goblin and tried to smack him before I went down and there was this brief span of a few seconds where I had only a couple of hit points left and the goblin was near death, and I realize that if Hagar didn't kill it with the next swing I was probably gone. Lo and behold, the goblin took my PC down and it was actually an incredibly satisfying experience.

I enjoy that feeling -- that adrenaline rush that most games can't come close to having you feel. That's one of the many great things that makes EfU a server that I'll probably always come back to. The reason I made my post was because, yes, as of late, I did feel that some of the spice felt like the wheel of fate was turning and it was the spicing DM versus the party of players, rather than the usual, mutual sharing of entertainment. I love not being able to expect what's around the next corner and I love the satisfaction of overcoming the challenges that DM's put forth. My post was to point out the certain frustrations that I and, perhaps, other people encounter when we get the feeling that it is indeed a battle between us and the DM's.

I'm trying not to be long-winded without sounding like an asshole, but I don't think it's working out particularly well.

Quote from: Nightshadow;248181No one can win EfU because someone already won, so we lost.



I'm sorry, I just had to. :P

That is a quote taken out of context in reference to a an IRC discussion probably years ago. The question was which PC was responsible for the most mayhem in a very specific large battle that occurred quite a long time ago. No disrespect to Dakarai or the player, but he didn't even have a particularly all-time high body-count (nor it that something I would consider WINNING efu).

This is off topic but I feel like it's important to clarify this. If you really want to get into what characters I thought accomplished something significant as to approach "winning" EFU that might be an interesting discussion for another thread, as there have been some accomplishments that PCs have made that were truly impressive.

It was a joke, is all. Truthfully I never played with Dakarai.. but anyway. All our characters will die a painful death at some point. No one from EfU lived through all of EfU:A, even, by my reckoning. Though a few may have escaped back to Faerun. Every character we make will die, so you've got to go out and try and make whatever it is you die trying to do worthwhile, fun and interesting.. Like Leged! But now we're getting even more off topic. *cough*

I like pie.

I like pie.

Seriously, it took me a while to truly come to grips with some of the ways EfU can work.

When I first started in earnest, I was enthralled by the setting and the possibilities of the intense dynamic of what was going on.

But when those possibilities became realities, a became somewhat disgruntled and upset.  My first time in a 'random' PvP altercation, the first time I experienced 'pointless' spice, one time when a DM 'just killed' my PC... A lot of it came from expectations based on a previous community I was a part of where there was very seldom any PvP, no static content to spice, and DMs were there simply to glad hand your PC and push their story along.

In time, I have decided that for me the way EfU works is pure genius, that story and plot are King, and that certain things happen for a reason that may not be readily apparent right away.

To add to one of my above examples, when the DM 'killed' my PC, I vented my frustration a bit to another player and probably in public.  It wasn't an hour later I was eating my words when it turned out that the DM had some very specific (and very cool) plans for us and that from his perspective the death was NOT bullshit, but rather the natural course of action for what was occurring.  Talk about a turning point.

Yes, sometimes things are going to be very difficult and sometimes you will find frustrations.  Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.  Regardless, your attitude is going to be one of this largest factors in determining is you had fun in the end, or if it was all just a long set of frustrations.

Stick to it, shine on you crazy diamond, live life to the fullest, and when DMs give you lemons... make lemonade.

Also... I like my pie spiced.

Just got hit with *heavy* spice. Though two of our team died it really got my heart pumping!

It may have been the lag, but at times it seemed as if the DM was spawning them right on top of us, as in within thirty feet or so. That was kind of jarring but otherwise it was fun. :)

I like spice that does not encompass risk of death... I'll give an example.

During the harpies, we were spiced with an ENORMOUS amount of extra spawn.... as in, there was no room to move, so to speak. We waded through all of that, but it took so much time most of the buffs cast at the beginning were either dispelled, or were in the process of fading. We hit the final level, and encounter a buffed goblin. This was a suitor to the harpy queen (i am fairly certain) and he would have none of our friendly gifts of blade and spell to her. So, he charged us and blew us away rather swiftly... HOWEVER the DM set the goblin to stun (SD) rather than kill. Which, when the rest of us ran off, and later returned to find charmed partymembers coming AT US, it took the quest to a whole new level.

So this is my challenge to you guys topside..

Set goblins to stun

QuoteI like spice that does not encompass risk of death...

:(  That's not right though.  Without the risk of death, EfU is nothing more than a meaningless procession up to high levels.  For any success to be worth it, you have to have beaten the odds, and survived situations which were anything BUT a certainty.

The risk of death has to be there, always, or EfU is not as special a game as it can be.

Quote from: Nuclear Catastrophe;248466:(  That's not right though.  Without the risk of death, EfU is nothing more than a meaningless procession up to high levels.  For any success to be worth it, you have to have beaten the odds, and survived situations which were anything BUT a certainty.

The risk of death has to be there, always, or EfU is not as special a game as it can be.

It's like the difference between playing poker for fun and playing Poker for real money.

Shit's just more intense dawg.

Yup, it's why a tough quest is so much more exciting, and a feeling I only otherwise get in Minecraft, where you can't just reload the game either. However, that very feeling of gambling the time and achievements of a PC are what make it all the more jarring when you've just thrown everything you've got into beating a horde of uber NPCs that damn near killed your char and end up with nothing out of it to help you survive the next danger. To continue Cluckyx's analogy, it's like playing poker for real money against a guy who's matching your own big bet. You beat his hand, but your opponent proceeds to eat his money rather than hand it over when he folds. The persistence of this thread does seem like an indication that spice has kicked up massively lately whereas reward for it has dropped a lot.

 The problem with varying between spice that drains PCs and stuff that rewards them is it really hurts the players that aren't always powergaming and therefore able to recover and then be there for the rewarding stuff. It's a disincentive to take risks, because you know it's unlikely that they'll pay off in any way. When the risk is close to the reward, players want to rock out  and do the dangerous things because they know if they aim high, they've a chance at the good stuff, be it DM loot, powerful supplies or attention. When it's not, pulling out all the stops just means a week's worth of questing to go and gear up or get your levels back.

Few players complain at being left out of pocket or level if the result was some memorable and interesting RP or plot advancement. If your PC dies or burns a lot of stuff but gets to say he saved Mistlocke or defeated a major enemy of his faction, that's a reward in itself. The spider invasion recently was a very poor IC reward for most PCs, but the story aspect of it was great and PCs could always flee or stay back. The end XP was nice and it's the sort of thing that takes the edge off losses. You had a choice and it didn't feel personal.  However, when it looks like a DM's decided to challenge you personally with spice and the result of using everything down to the kitchen sink is "You get to live", it leaves a bad taste. You wonder why you didn't turn tail at the first sign of spice, rather than face the challenge. You feel like the DM is testing how much it takes to break your PC, rather than trying to be entertaining or tell a story.

QuoteFew players complain at being left a bit down in supplies if the result  was some memorable and interesting RP or plot advancement. There's more  rewards than mere Loot and XP. However, when it looks like a DM's  decided to challenge you and liven up a quest or something and the  result of using everything down to the kitchen sink is "You get to  live", it leaves a bad taste. You wonder why you didn't just turn tail  at the first sign of spice, rather than face the challenge.

Well, you can. But I'd bring you the concept of delayed gratification. If you rock out a challenge, and do not receive an instant gratification of xp/loot/pat on the back. Be stoic. These things happen, and they are a good judge of character.

Your attitude is extremely important. Making forum posts to subtletly complain or talking to your buddies how so and so DM is after YOU is a great way to ensure you do not receive anything!

I know I've ran events in the past and went : "Wow, these guys really struggled, and didn't complain. The reward seemed light. Maybe I should throw them a custom quest, in a few days when I'll have time, for so and so and design loot custom to them", only to go look in the logs to remind me who went and see they had been bitching in tells the whole time about how I was trying to kill them -- along with many other paranoid fantasies.

Did I feel any sympathy for them at that point? None.

Did I want to waste 5 hours of my life designing loot/quest/story centered around them? Hell no.

So, yes. Maybe you wont be rewarded IMMEDIATELY for spice, but dont despair! Keep up the good attitude and you'll see other forms of reward -- That's what most people understand that having a good relation is its own reward and not worth bitching over 250xp more, a few potions, or an alignment shift of 3 evil points, and that there might be other benefits that are intangible and that you do not immediately notice when you travel a tough time and keep your cool.

What Mort says above has been my experience in most cases. Sometimes you come out behind supply-wise, far behind. The reward might be coming another day, and typically if you just keep RPing the situation, and keep it all IC, you wind up seeing it.

I think the key here is, sure people get a bit frustrated, frustration is natural. But I have yet to ever have one of these set backs damage my character in any real way, beyond the temporary, rather easily fixed things. Progression isn't a straight, steady line. It's forward, backward, a little further forward, a sharp drop back, etc.. That's normal, and it should be embraced, because anything else becomes predictable, and the beauty of this kind of roleplay is its unpredictability.

Quote from: Mort;248667Well, you can. But I'd bring you the concept of delayed gratification.
...
So, yes. Maybe you wont be rewarded IMMEDIATELY for spice, but dont despair! Keep up the good attitude and you'll see other forms of reward -- That's what most people understand that having a good relation is its own reward and not worth bitching over 250xp more, a few potions, or an alignment shift of 3 evil points, and that there might be other benefits that are intangible and that you do not immediately notice when you travel a tough time and keep your cool.

I totally understand the DMs take on this, but this is why I recommend DMs always give players an OOC message at the end of some spice or events where PCs have been left generally worse off. A quick "well done! I know you're worse off right now, but kudos for sticking it out. Hopefully will lead to more fun stuff in the future." Prevents any short-term dissatisfaction players might be feeling, and keeps ooc communication lines open.

That said, the only problem with this is for players who are more casual for various reasons, who may not feel like they will ever see the long term rewards that more regular players might see. While I don't think DMs should stop doing what they do, I think recognition that not everyone wants the same thing from the game is necessary.

Saying to people something along the lines of "suck it up" is not particularly helpful. I don't think the DMs are saying that at all (I find you guys pretty courteous generally), but there are some players that sometimes respond this way.  If another player ooc-ly bows out of a quest or event (even if their PC would normally feel compelled to do it), we should all respect that sometimes OOC feelings need to take priority over staying in-character in order for us all to keep enjoying the game together.

I just wanted to post here and say that while myself and Lina Luxton (Ashley) are new to this server, having only been here a couple of days, we have enjoyed the "DM Spice" as you all call it, very, very much. Both times have been with DM Mort. Once was simply RP'ing my Cleric burying the bodies of the victims of the spider attack, after everyone else had simply looted them and ran off. I even saw a Paladin in the mix, grabbing whatever she could, and there is even a section under character expectations for Paladin which states, "Will not desecrate the dead in any manner.".

 He aided me in putting out fires, removing webs, burying them, and even creating headstones. It was a great first DM experience.

The second time was today, while doing the quest for the farmers in which you protect their cattle from wolves, he joined in and werewolves began to attack. After, we protected the family from the wolves as well as they held up in a old warehouse. One of the NPC's, "Big John" was killed, and the RP he provided after was actually a bit touching, and you felt a loss for the man, though he was only an NPC.

It was tough for the three of us, and we did use up all of our healing, but we were well rewarded, and far beyond any reward, the experience, and fun we had doing the quest, cannot even be put into words. We have seriously began to consider not going back to our previous server, (Ravenloft) after these times with Mort. And I have played there for six years. Ashley 6 months, as this is her first computer game ever.

So, I'd just like to thank you, Mort, and any other DM's, for the great job you've done. And I hope to do more with you in the future.

Quote from: Victor Malvaious;248728I just wanted to post here and say that while myself and Lina Luxton (Ashley) are new to this server, having only been here a couple of days, we have enjoyed the "DM Spice" as you all call it, very, very much. Both times have been with DM Mort. Once was simply RP'ing my Cleric burying the bodies of the victims of the spider attack, after everyone else had simply looted them and ran off. I even saw a Paladin in the mix, grabbing whatever she could, and there is even a section under character expectations for Paladin which states, "Will not desecrate the dead in any manner.".

 He aided me in putting out fires, removing webs, burying them, and even creating headstones. It was a great first DM experience.

The second time was today, while doing the quest for the farmers in which you protect their cattle from wolves, he joined in and werewolves began to attack. After, we protected the family from the wolves as well as they held up in a old warehouse. One of the NPC's, "Big John" was killed, and the RP he provided after was actually a bit touching, and you felt a loss for the man, though he was only an NPC.

It was tough for the three of us, and we did use up all of our healing, but we were well rewarded, and far beyond any reward, the experience, and fun we had doing the quest, cannot even be put into words. We have seriously began to consider not going back to our previous server, (Ravenloft) after these times with Mort. And I have played there for six years. Ashley 6 months, as this is her first computer game ever.

So, I'd just like to thank you, Mort, and any other DM's, for the great job you've done. And I hope to do more with you in the future.

I think this is a very, very good example of my own POV for EFU. I have played all sorts of servers, but EFU kind of stands out for me. Sure, death is a bitch... a really nasty bitch.. and we all know that... and we want to avoid it, which is why we hoard healing enough to propably save a minor fief each. And while I stated earlier that I like the kinds of spice that do not necesarrily encompass mortal risk, i said so because i like RP. I know a fair share of how to build characters, but i honestly prefer typing rather than frantic button-mashing and mousemolestation. This is what is so great with nwn, you actually get foes you can RP with, things that react. That, to me, is far more interresting than a simple "me smash joo", or whatever it is the orcs prefer to shout nowadays.

I much prefer to subdue a particularily strong orc, watch the others cower as their leader is knocked down, then figure out what the hells is going on, rather than buffing up and crushing them. Sure, the orc -may- not know common, but there are several characters with legitimate reason for knowing orcish... or whichever foe we happen to assail that day.

Delayed gratification is good, yes. It's why I like plots where you might lose in the middle of it, but you're pulling yourselves back together because you can see the goal to aim for. Spice however, is a one-shot thing and unless you can see that connection between the spice and a later achievement, it looks from your point of view like some DM is trying to discourage you. Yeah, I know DMs aren't trying to ruin your story, but it's all about perception of what just happened. Thats's where Chez's point comes in. If there's little IC reward then an indication you're moving a plot or an OOC tell that hints you achieved something are important. They serve to either take the sting out the loss, or link future rewards to your past successes because you know there's a DM following your PC, giving him both hard times and good times. It means you're not bitter because you know it's a DM wanting to make things interesting because they like your concept.

Capricious, I've had times where setbacks have drained the PC to the point beyond which he can quest at that level to gain the supplies back. Times where killer spice derailed a plot by frustrating allied PCs into permadeath. Times where I seriously felt that the PC was being targeted so much that I'd rather retire him to play one where I could accomplish something.


The thing about spice that's gone beyond what you'd consider fun is that on EfU, you can't simply walk away and cool off. Unless your PC would ICly run or you've got a good RL reason to go, fair play tends to stop you logging in the middle of the battle to avoid getting into a huff. Unlike a DM quest, you didn't choose to go and may not have wanted a huge challenge when you logged in. Situations like that, people will vent to each other because it makes them feel better and they know quitting will spoil things for everyone else, so they stick to it. It's just a game, after all, but people play games to enjoy themselves. If a DM event leaves a lot of players grumpy, sure the players might need to take it on the chin, but equally it's a sign something's a bit amiss.