There's a rather hefty convenience issue with no longer having a party system; Two or more characters moving in stealth. Realistically, it seems reasonable to assume that two skilled sneaks would not actually hide from the buddy they happen to be exploring with, but rather from the other things about. Mechanically, as soon as someone passes around a corner, behind a sea gull, past a pile of mud or where the grass happens to grow a bit too tall, you will invariably lose track of each other, which causes no ends of trouble since the only solution is to either to roll a lucky roll on detection and spot the other player through stealth, or break it.
Could a mechanical way of keeping track of companions in stealth through mutual consent perhaps be added somehow? A tool allowing for detection if mutually activated, some way to add the old map pins back, or anything of the like? Since, at the moment, with collision and pathing mechanics being as they are, it's pretty rough going trying to travel somewhere with someone in stealth.
Stay together in an area and pause after transitioning, unstealth, and wait for everyone to unstealth around you before continuing.
Another trick I used to use all the time in EfU:A -
If you all know the route, decide on some landmarks ("that tower", or a rock, or a tree) that really stand out. Periodically meet up, unstealth or otherwise make yourself known there, then agree on the next landmark and move.
You could also drop items to avoid breaking stealth but know where each other are. Arrows are cheap and plentiful, for instance.
Ghosts would be around
Still, a voice command like /c signal or something that would reveal you to a target or to all allies might be worth considering.
My two cents!
Its not that hard to remain in sight for your allies if you really want to.
All you have to do is to make sure you don't move around corners to quickly.
Wait for the party to catch up etc.
Quote from: lovethesuit;245563Another trick I used to use all the time in EfU:A -
If you all know the route, decide on some landmarks ("that tower", or a rock, or a tree) that really stand out. Periodically meet up, unstealth or otherwise make yourself known there, then agree on the next landmark and move.
For your money, this is really the best way under the current system. The concept of 'group leader' is more important in the non-party system than in any other MMO I've played. Your party really is going to get lost if you don't have someone in charge of herding cats.
Some people use to do emotes like "[whistles / Click tongue / click fangs to alert others of presence.]" -- I find these way arounds IC way better than anything we could script to make 'easy'
I do agree, IC ways are better. Mechanically, problem is that in my eyes people don't seem to be able to hear each other, unless they see each other - or 10 seconds or what ever the time is, after they lose sight of each other.
This makes it hard to write anything as your friends don't see the text, if they don't see you. Even if you sneak right next to each other. So I do understand the suggestion here.
Quote from: Paha Poika;246416I do agree, IC ways are better. Mechanically, problem is that in my eyes people don't seem to be able to hear each other, unless they see each other - or 10 seconds or what ever the time is, after they lose sight of each other.
This makes it hard to write anything as your friends don't see the text, if they don't see you. Even if you sneak right next to each other. So I do understand the suggestion here.
Yes, this. I've often experienced that when I speak while stealthed, only those who can see me can hear me. Which makes signaling and such pretty tricky.
Some of these other tips are pretty neat, too, such as deciding on checkpoints for example - But what if you're exploring something for the first time? Which is actually one of the more common dangerous duo-stealth scenarios. Same goes for grouping up after transitions I suppose. Laying out arrows and such has its merits too, but won't it create an unnecessary source of lag? And also be a pretty ICly unstealthy maneuver since your friend isn't the only one who can spot a clearly laid out trail.
It just feels that stealthing in a group is a pretty crummy thing to deal with already thanks to the nwn "total invisibility or nothing" stealth system; While partial solutions exist IG, I don't really see what harm a mechanical system to counteract the mechanical flaws already present would cause.
It is the people with stealth who need to be more aware and less silly about it if they want to be seen. It's not hard at all to toggle stealth now and then on transitions, after corners, or whatever else to allow your allies to see you if you wish.
Quote from: TakenByVisions;246469It is the people with stealth who need to be more aware and less silly about it if they want to be seen. It's not hard at all to toggle stealth now and then on transitions, after corners, or whatever else to allow your allies to see you if you wish.
Sorry? I'm talking specifically about stealthing together with other people who are also stealthed. Being the only stealther in a group of non-stealthers is a different topic entirely, and one that I've never touched upon in this post. Please stay on-topic.
It is very much possible to be considerate and show yourself constantly, flashing out of stealth and so on. I can do it, surely everyone else can as well.
I do however simply agree with the problem, because nwn engine allows corner-sneaking, where you will vanish out of sight immediately if you happen to be in stealth mode and even for a moment go "transparent" aka lose the line of sight. That might be because of a small rock, tree, object or simple change of terrain.
That will make it simply hard to do it. I only agree with the problem. It is true, that people can work around it. Agree certain spots, be very considerate of their use of stealth, flashing out of it at every safe corner/spot, so that their friends might see them even for a blink and so on.
Quote from: Wrexsoul;246482Sorry? I'm talking specifically about stealthing together with other people who are also stealthed. Being the only stealther in a group of non-stealthers is a different topic entirely, and one that I've never touched upon in this post. Please stay on-topic.
It's quite on topic still and perhaps even easier to realize since whenever you go out of sight, you'll also lose sight of them. Simply toggle your stealth after transitions, after corners, or use one of the many other suggested ideas to travel.
You can fade to stealth and not even realise it, because unless others use stealth mode, they won't fade out. Simple as that. It's nothing to be compared.
I don't really understand this thread.
If you are traveling with fellow stealthers, simply wait for them on transitions and restealth together, and move together without breaking LOS.
Issue resolved.
Sorry, but it doesn't really feel like the last few posts have taken my clarification post in mind. Of course there are workarounds, but they feel to me, in every point but "let's go from point A to point B on a route that we both know well and rendezvous there", rather crummy and roundabout in their nature, to half-solve a problem that's really got no positive aspects to it.
This wasn't a "help, this is broken beyond all aspects" suggestion, nor was it a "how can I work around this to sorta solve it well enough to get by in most cases?" help-seeking post; this was a "can we make this part of the game a bit better and more realistic/logical/smooth since it's not implemented super well by the engine?" suggestion.
The transition/landmark regrouping thing does not work if you are exploring somewhere you are not familiar with ICly, without metagaming. The putting out a trail of arrows thing seems cluttery and not very smooth. The "go visible occasionally to let them know you are there" only applies to situations where you travel with non-stealthers, which isn't what this post is about. The same method when being only with other stealthed people does not work when there are hostile enemies around, which is likely the reason you're stealthed in the first place. As Paha_Poika says, there are a multitude of things that really aren't noticeable that still count as "breaking line of sight", often causing people to disappear in the middle of hallways and such without them having a chance to know it. This also makes "moving together without breaking LOS" pretty impossible, especially when accounting for minor lag and desynchronization issues, without sending tells back and forth, which is both metagaming and immersion breaking.
I was of the impression that stealth as it is implemented by the NWN engine was pretty frowned upon to begin with, and what I'm suggesting is just one way to make it a little bit better, without any drawbacks that I can see. If you think there's a reason for this to be implemented if it's possible, or if it's simply not possible for some reason, please let me know as per usual feedback to a suggestion post. But otherwise; Why the hating? :(