After some careful consideration, and a couple conversations with members of the player-base, I would like to propose this document for the reorganization of the dominion. I feel that this might be beneficial as our current setup leaves the Stygian faction as little more then glorified policemen, and gives us a large number of Tetarchs and Lords that are under represented and highly divided within the Dominion. These are my thoughts.
Hierarchy, the one thing that always bugged me was how we are tossing around all these different terms without any real structure. If the Dominion survives the Maiden, I would suggest that the Duke himself restructure things to a real feudalism.
The Armada[INDENT]Duke (Commandant Antoine Trenada)
Lord (or Baron, The Tertrach’s and any qualifying current Lords)
Noble (The Veteran’s of the Armada and the other current Lords)
Stygian (Knights, or The Elite guard and specialized forces of the nobles. This is the only legal avenue to which to own land within the Dominion, these are the Patricians. This raises the Stygian back to an elite level above common guards. It also forces players that wish to play a huge political role to apply into the specialist or infantry positions, giving the Stygian all types of players and plots. With each group of Stygian they were be assigned to a particular noble, and rep that agenda as well as the glory of the Duchy.)
[/INDENT][INDENT]Militia Sheriff (This would be the most qualified NPC to run the standard town guard, He outranks basic stygian, or might actually be a particular stygian)
Militia Officer (These would be the highest ranked PCs/NPCs under the Sheriff, it would also be the most influential a wizard/cleric could become within the Dominion. Thus it would revitalize and emphasize the distrust of magic. It also inspires more wizards wanting power to turn to the conclave, which is suppose to be existing off the Dominion natural distrust.)
Militiamen (These would be the standard cops, the arrest wands, the tax collection, the paperwork. They cannot own property, but they can pull a wage from the city in prosperous times.)
Conscripts (The player faction version of drafted or volunteer Militiamen.)
[/INDENT]Citizen (The standard adventurer, craftsperson, and laborer)
Guest (The temporary allowance of a non-citizen protection under the under the laws)
Servant (Property until released by a Noble+)
This may sound too streamlined, but in feudal society everything was basically set up to support the One ruler. Right now the Lords are other random rich people that manage property owned by the Duke, if incorporated into the Stygian, you suddenly get a very Knightly (not necessarily chivalrous) feel from the organization. Now not all members of the Stygian would be offensive military (but they all could be) so you would find Lady Maria Catherina Sevar running a “house†of spies, but Lord Stention might be more focused on running his house of “acquisitions†be that slaves, entertainment or otherwise. The Noble Vasard Kingsman would serve whomever Lord would best fit, and his employee’s would be citizens that were favored with some authority on the premises, while his top guards would be Stygian or Militia depending on the desire of his Lord.)
______________________
The days of the Stygian being just an Elite Mercenary Unit are gone. They now own the Isle until something else kills them all. Everything is considered owned by the Duke, even if it is allowed to be possessed by say a Lord or a Patrician. Much of what we currently use the Patrician rank for is kind of blurred anyway, and most use it as merely a stepping stone to try to get the influence they want for Lord, while the others just have it for fun.
I would even consider going as far as to stop giving out citizenship for free at the Mythellar. Using that as a location to sign up as a guest would do the same thing, and allow the actual citizenship as something earned. The right to own slaves, monsters, pets, businesses, etc could be limited by true citizenship or not. Or it could even be a crime for a citizen to aid the enemies of the Dominion.
Anyway, food for thought. Let me know what you think.
I say work on acomplishing this IG. If ur character wants the Dominion to be like this then change it. The suggestion forums are not a place to suggest DMS oocly change the storyline. I say accomplish all this stuff IG.
Actually DrDragon, this is a suggestion that can only be done from the Duke's position. No amount of pandering or awesomeness will give a PC this type of authority.
Lets assume we are considering this as a hypothetical situation
This suggestion is not something that is said in a vacuum. I'm sharing the ideas with the player and DM base. Bearing this in mind, if anyone has thoughts on what their opinions would be on such a setup positive or negative, feel free to give them.
I do not expect this to suddenly "change" everything IG if people like it. The question is two-fold: if this was how it worked, would you prefer it to how it is working now? and what other amendments could make it better?
Hm, make everyone start out as 'Peasant' and make them work their way up to becoming a 'citizen'.
Peasant > Citizen > Patrician > Lord > King
I think it would be interesting that the way to earn your true citizenship would be to serve in the militia.
I think it would spur that type of activity and support the 'draft', which i always thought was a good idea to have OOC...
I don't know about all this, but I would definitely be in favor of, in addition to Nduru, a militiaman being placed at the top of the Ziggurat to explain some of the current ingame politics (ie the compulsory militia service, H'bala) to new players/characters.
I might have this wrong, but I believe that the militia is currently drafting all able-bodied into its ranks. Existing players who have concepts leading them elsewhere can sidestep this, but new players with unclear goals can find themselves involved more easily if this is made clear.
I think having a clear posted legal structure would be in keeping with the fundamentals of the Dominion.
Something written up after the Maiden plot, for what ever (if anything) is left of the Dominion to clarify the nobility and commoner ranks, would be great.
Quote from: Yalta;240823I think having a clear posted legal structure would be in keeping with the fundamentals of the Dominion.
Something written up after the Maiden plot, for what ever (if anything) is left of the Dominion to clarify the nobility and commoner ranks, would be great.
I've actually been told the vaugery of the Dominion legal code was purposeful and IC.
Quote from: Ebok;240815Actually DrDragon, this is a suggestion that can only be done from the Duke's position. No amount of pandering or awesomeness will give a PC this type of authority.
Lets assume we are considering this as a hypothetical situation
This suggestion is not something that is said in a vacuum. I'm sharing the ideas with the player and DM base. Bearing this in mind, if anyone has thoughts on what their opinions would be on such a setup positive or negative, feel free to give them.
I do not expect this to suddenly "change" everything IG if people like it. The question is two-fold: if this was how it worked, would you prefer it to how it is working now? and what other amendments could make it better?
Then work IG to get to in a position to persuade or force the Duke to change this. Or you can overthrow the duke and institute your own form of government. Players are in the position.
I appreciate Ebok's ideas, as yes, Feudalism is usually a lot more structured than the Dominion currently is. Even if eventually power structure change occurs IG through player actions, I think its worth the DMs considering some ways to make the power structure clearer to the player base.
We have the influential persons list, but I'd be keen to see a nominal power structure that looks at the various titles currently bestowed on PCs and NPCs and where they lie in a hierarchy - even if this hierarchy is disputed/contested/blurred in game.
I was also focusing on ways to seperate the Eliteness from the Stygian's from the basic low-class work like guarding this street corner, collecting taxes, or police work. Then of course filling the void that is left one you remove that from the faction; which was why I was considering pushing Stygians more towards the actual patrician 'rank' and using their upgrade into Noble as kinda of 'lordship' as we use them currently.
Its obvious that a PC cannot have the same stability and influence as say, Stenton. So there will always be a discrepancy between the 'Lords' of heads of households, then Nobility / influential PCs. If anyone has any particular questions just poke me iirc.
------
After talking with Talir, it's pretty clear that the Tertrach's are not ever going to be big public figures. So they could easily just hold the special rank as generals of the colony that they do now.
All of it is Ebok's, I've added the Patrician class on my own initiative! This is my personal take on how it should be.
The Armada[INDENT]Duke (Commandant Antoine Trenada)
Lord (or Baron, The Tertrach’s and any qualifying current Lords)
Noble (The Veteran’s of the Armada and the other current Lords)
Stygian (Knights, or The Elite guard and specialized forces of the nobles. This is the only legal avenue to which to own land within the Dominion, these are the Patricians. This raises the Stygian back to an elite level above common guards. It also forces players that wish to play a huge political role to apply into the specialist or infantry positions, giving the Stygian all types of players and plots. With each group of Stygian they were be assigned to a particular noble, and rep that agenda as well as the glory of the Duchy.)
[/INDENT][INDENT]Militia Sheriff (This would be the most qualified NPC to run the standard town guard, He outranks basic stygian, or might actually be a particular stygian)
Militia Officer (These would be the highest ranked PCs/NPCs under the Sheriff, it would also be the most influential a wizard/cleric could become within the Dominion. Thus it would revitalize and emphasize the distrust of magic. It also inspires more wizards wanting power to turn to the conclave, which is suppose to be existing off the Dominion natural distrust.)
Militiamen (These would be the standard cops, the arrest wands, the tax collection, the paperwork. They cannot own property, but they can pull a wage from the city in prosperous times.)
Conscripts (The player faction version of drafted or volunteer Militiamen.)
[/INDENT]
Patricians (Elite merchant / adventurer caste who swear allegiance to the Duke. Of the same social caste as the Stygians and Knights, these are non-nobles who have proven their worth and earned the Duke's trust. While they wouldn't normally exist in a Fuedal Society, the Dominion has a lot of newcomers all the time. They pay the same tithe they do before, however, they also take an Oath of loyalty to the Duke and need to gain the recommendation of an Infantryman. This makes it less of a casual benefit and more of a stepping stone to becoming big in Dominion politics without directly joining the Stygians.)
Citizen (The standard adventurer, craftsperson, and laborer)
Guest (The temporary allowance of a non-citizen protection under the under the laws)
Servant (Property until released by a Noble+)
The main reasons I suggest keeping the Patrician class but making it more loyal to the Duke is that otherwise you would need a DM or to do a LOT before you became legible to hire one of the Guildhouses, and so it's easier to go from a citizen to a noble.
I think Ebok's idea is a really good one and I especially like giving the Stygians political power and allowing them to shine as more than just the Duke's soldiers.
Personaly I would LOVE to see the stygians being removed as policemen, They should Either go back to being a mercenary company, or become an elite gaurd for the duke.
Also The militia should become a DM faction and ALOT more prominent.
Anything to give this place a more medieval feel is a good thing in my book.
I think that if it was more clear how to raise in power in the Dominon and you could see it happening, more players than the usual politicaly inclined ones would be inclined to take a shot at playing influential PCs. Things used to be more organised under the Sharboneths, in that there was a division of "police", political and military ranks, and PCs could be promoted in each.
Currently you can build a banner, try and get people to it, but have little idea on if you have support to rise or not. See how much help it was for VP's faction building because Lady Harvix was able to offer uniforms to members, and establish a presence.
Say you want to command the Militia or a squad of them. Do you go for Infantryman? Specialist? Or join the Militia and try and impress your superiors? If you're an Armada Veteran, do you command the respect of a Lord, or can they stil treat you as a flunky? This isn't so much an upheaval OOCly DrD, as a request to have a better idea of what's going on and where the many ranks and titles stand with respect to each other.
I laughed aloud at the idea of "typical feudalism" in this thread. There's no such thing, and never was -- what we call "feudalism" was an extreme oversimplification of what some medieval governments looked like. Furthermore, governments with feudalistic elements often exhibited just the sort of uncertainty and a lack of an authoritative hierarchy that is being "fixed" here.
It's possible to make all sorts of statements about the development and state of the Dominion, and propose alternative structures of government, but that's best left to politician and theorist PCs ingame.
To say that proposing these changes ICly is "impossible" is silly: the policies of rulers are frequently influenced by individuals without official government power, and Duke Trenada is no exception. That said, don't expect to get much response from a civics-class essay titled "[Duke Trenada] //DM" -- work for it. Take the actions of current political PCs as an example of what you can do inside the structure of the law. This suggestion is valid, but it is very silly to post such a thing here.
Actually, I'm a little confused about how it's not already set up in the manner of the OP... I mean... Duke's in charge... then there's some Lords and Nobles and then the Stygians...
There's the Militia and it has its structure... then the patricians outrank the citizens outrank the guests... slaves are there near the bottom...
Yeah, there's not a post that outright states it, but where is it not clear that there is a sort of order of merit for where people stand?
At the top of the Ziggerat (see what I did thar) is THE DUKE.
Below THE DUKE (who kicks ass and chews bubblegum) is the COUNCIL OF PEERS, made up of the TRUE NOBLES of the colony - people endowed with true authority and posistion. These are landowners, old money, houses. Durjure, Stenton, Harvix, and...one or two more I think. Adventurers MAY become lords after time and effort (they have a tendency to die though). These peers serve Lord Trenada, help manage domestic policy, and generally manage the colonies economy. In modern terms, think of these as corporations.
Honestly if you know anything about modern american politics, a CEO isn;t much different from a noble lord by this point.
Below them are Patricians. Wealthy merchants, craftsmen, skilled labor. People with the coin or clout to have a little authority, but they still answer to the military authority.
And then there's citizens/guests/slaves etc.
Below the COUNCIL OF PEERS
The fun thing about the zig is that there are plenty of hierarchical structures, set out quite clearly, but the interaction between those structures is complex and unclear.
For example: does a militiaman order a patrician around, or vice versa? When I played a militiaman, I actually stripped someone of their patricianship one day, and got into a scuffle with a different one about not giving them enough respect the next.
Which of those is the way it's set up? I think it's vague enough to allow for a myriad of RP.
The main gist of the OP seems to be taking Stygians out of watchman duty and into elite stuff, and making militiamen less of useless goons with no real authority (which they are, give some of them arrest wands ffs).
Quote from: Iron Oligarch;241048I laughed aloud at the idea of "typical feudalism" in this thread. There's no such thing, and never was -- what we call "feudalism" was an extreme oversimplification of what some medieval governments looked like. Furthermore, governments with feudalistic elements often exhibited just the sort of uncertainty and a lack of an authoritative hierarchy that is being "fixed" here.
It's possible to make all sorts of statements about the development and state of the Dominion, and propose alternative structures of government, but that's best left to politician and theorist PCs ingame.
To say that proposing these changes ICly is "impossible" is silly: the policies of rulers are frequently influenced by individuals without official government power, and Duke Trenada is no exception. That said, don't expect to get much response from a civics-class essay titled "[Duke Trenada] //DM" -- work for it. Take the actions of current political PCs as an example of what you can do inside the structure of the law. This suggestion is valid, but it is very silly to post such a thing here.
Finally someone who agrees with me,
Quote from: Dr Dragon;241086Finally someone who agrees with me,
I agree with the sentiment as well. Complexity is part of what allows the variety of possible interactions we currently have in EFU:A. Where PCs who seek to garner a name for themselves can follow a rough outline rather than purposely progress through very specific ranks.
I very much echo the words of Porkolt here as outlined below.
Quote from: Porkolt;241078The fun thing about the zig is that there are plenty of hierarchical structures, set out quite clearly, but the interaction between those structures is complex and unclear.
For example: does a militiaman order a patrician around, or vice versa? When I played a militiaman, I actually stripped someone of their patricianship one day, and got into a scuffle with a different one about not giving them enough respect the next.
Which of those is the way it's set up? I think it's vague enough to allow for a myriad of RP.
A submissive and non authoritative patrician might succumb to the authority of a militiaman even if this was not the militiaman's right to do. This one interaction could then branch out into so many different possibilities.
The militiaman could be commended and the patrician permanently stripped of their status or the militiaman would be reprimanded and the patrician vindicated, perhaps if they are some kind of submissive sadist Loviataran they could also see the culprit whipped. And this is just one example of a plethora of wondrous possibilities.
Quote from: Iron Oligarch;241048To say that proposing these changes ICly is "impossible" is silly: the policies of rulers are frequently influenced by individuals without official government power, and Duke Trenada is no exception. That said, don't expect to get much response from a civics-class essay titled "[Duke Trenada] //DM" -- work for it. Take the actions of current political PCs as an example of what you can do inside the structure of the law. This suggestion is valid, but it is very silly to post such a thing here.
To be honest, I just wanted to know what other people thought about it. It may have been more useful under general discussion. This is me sharing the idea. As I said originally, I never thought that this post would suddenly = reality just becasue I posted it; it would have to happen IG by DMs and Players, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to have both group's have a place to chime in with what could be their "ideal".
The only reason I have it posted here, is that DangerousDan said I should. :P And the only reason I told DrD this isn't something a payer can do, is because it involved completely restructuring a DM faction and creating a new one. Maybe that's something someone like RwG can get done, but I personally don't have that kind of time.
Quote from: Ebok;241177Maybe that's something someone like RwG can get done, but I personally don't have that kind of time.
Do not sell yourself short. Persistence is key. I say if you really wanted to you could see it done.
It doesn't mean it would happen in a day a week or even a month, it may take several months depending on how much time you have to spend in game or otherwise but you could still see it done, I'm sure, if you try.
I don't see why that sort of idea shouldn't be posted, but it may not be that Suggestions is the right place. You could try to use it as a basis for a new player faction that wants things more organised, for example. Doing something as a group is always easier than trying to push for it alone.
"Freeze buddy, Stygian Police!"
Throwing this in here, since I see it's mildly related;
I had a lot of fun when I was fighting for citizenship. When you're restructuring the way the Armada works, consider that most people who come to the Ziggurat are NOT naturalized. They're just random riff-raff dragged in by a magical beam of light. Why would you trust them with citizenship right off the bat? Why aren't they forced to do some sort of service, before being granted their citizenship? Instead, there's an NPC that just HANDS OUT citizenship papers.
It makes the entire process rather... bland. Perhaps it is a necessary blandness, but if it required a Patrician's endorsement to become a citizen, or an Armada endorsement, it would promote a lot of RP and conflict and perhaps even politics.
Just my ten cents.
Quote from: GoldenArrow;242690Throwing this in here, since I see it's mildly related;
I had a lot of fun when I was fighting for citizenship. When you're restructuring the way the Armada works, consider that most people who come to the Ziggurat are NOT naturalized. They're just random riff-raff dragged in by a magical beam of light. Why would you trust them with citizenship right off the bat? Why aren't they forced to do some sort of service, before being granted their citizenship? Instead, there's an NPC that just HANDS OUT citizenship papers.
It makes the entire process rather... bland. Perhaps it is a necessary blandness, but if it required a Patrician's endorsement to become a citizen, or an Armada endorsement, it would promote a lot of RP and conflict and perhaps even politics.
Just my ten cents.
[like]
I find it rather silly that you must obtain a citizenship. It feels a whole lot more like a kidnapping to me! I'd stay away from those crazy people who kidnap me with a mythallar.
And yes, it may not be their fault that the mythallar activates... but it's not like much effort are put into stopping it. Guilty by inaction!
Crazy kidnapping people.
Quote from: Porkolt;241078The fun thing about the zig is that there are plenty of hierarchical structures, set out quite clearly, but the interaction between those structures is complex and unclear...
I think Porkolt's managed to nail what the problem is. If you don't know how ranks interact, you don't in any real way have a heirarchy.
Yes, anyone playing a Militiaman right now could send a note to "Armada [DM]" saying "Who can I give orders to and when", but something in the faction forum or info itself saying their designated duties and rank would be avoid every character doing this or making the same mistake. Then if your PC wants to overstep his bounds and take a risk, he can. If he wants to play by the book, he can. That's what separates the Dominion from the Docks, you should know where you stand.
If you have no idea what a DM will have your superiors do, it's a disincentive to go making decisions and generating plots when you don't know if you're going to curry favour or drop yourself in it by succeeding. You can talk to PCs or know their reputations. It's harder to ask an NPC "what do I do here" or find out what accepted social standing is.
Let's just keep it simple.
Make the militia the "police". Make the Stygian elite. Done, done, done & done.
Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;243047Let's just keep it simple.
Make the militia the "police". Make the Stygian elite. Done, done, done & done.
The way I have always understood it (not that it matters much now anyway);
The Stygian Armada are the Duke's personal retinue. They are like Knights, to a Lord; they are his retainers. Since he is/was granted dominion over the Ziggurat and Ymph to a certain extent by the Baron, they acted/act in his stead under his orders using his authority.
The Militia, however, are organized from the people and do not have to be part of the Armada. They are the servants of the law directly as opposed to the retainers of Duke Trenada.
In
theory, using the traditional medieval heirarchy, if an Armada member broke the law, a Militia member - acting under the authority of the codified laws of the Dominion - could place them under arrest. They should be seperate since their authority comes from two different places, but in the Dominion this is not the case, since Antone prefers his justice to be meted out by the Armada, which makes the Militia their BITCHES.
Or did. Or whatever.
Nothing to reorganise, everyone dead/mad. :P