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Clerics are one of my favorite classes to play and one of the most interesting of the core selection, yet they come with a heavy price and what I've noticed to be a rather large (and also varied) expectation attached to them. I thought it might be interesting to hear a lot of opinions on the matter so I'll post my own concerns here and see how it turns out. While some of these issues may be avoided by this faith or that, it's a general statement of concerns that applies to the majority of Clerics.


  A Cleric is expected to be outgoing, preach their faith, be an obvious channel to the church, and simply be more appealing in general. A large burden is instantly placed on the player of a Cleric simply due to the fact that failures often outweigh successes on a relative scale. The threat of spell failure is always lingering right behind them, yet the gains of doing it properly are seemingly low. Does the small increase of a chance to raise the dead or other similar bonuses (A level 9 bonus only) equal the weight of the chance to lose all their powers on a whim, or even a small percentage of spell failure?

The second portion of this is alignment, dogmas, and wisdom, especially concerning the evil side of things. A Cleric simply must adhere to the dogma of their deity at all times or face the obvious penalties for not doing it. That is great but I think there is a slight issue there as well. Let's begin with this, in the Docks you have a priest of Umberlee who's described as handing out ritualistic drownings often, something quite illegal in that area. Is the reason he exists there simply because he's powerful or an NPC?

I don't think so, I think it's because Clerics walk around with 18-22 wisdom and are quite capable of finding the many alternate avenues to adhere to a dogma and also avoid a massive mob. We are asked to roleplay are stats often, yet more often I've been asked to be more alignment focused on my cleric than I am even though I've been heavily glued to the dogma very well. I think the priority on this issue should be switched in the eye of the spectator and DM alike, the dogma should outweigh the alignment.


  EFU is often described as a "Fighter's playground" and for good reason. Clerics come in a bottle, they are the completely unnecessary class of nwn/efu adventuring, there is nothing that requires them -to form an efficient group-. In fact, if you replace a cleric with either of it's alter aspects (fighter, buffer) you have a superior setup already. I am certain this will be debated heavily but I am going to break it down a little more.

The largest issue I'll start with is dispelling. A Cleric relies more heavily on it's limited "buffs" than any other class. Everything they offer to increase attack bonus comes in easily acquired bottles (or trinkets), bottles that do not help a 3/4 AB class like they do a full AB class. The duration of most buffs is also nearly irrelevant in PvP, as you have the vials lasting 3 minutes each or divine favor being a set duration of 1 minute. Dispel magic targets the more powerful spells first, and as I and almost anyone who's played a cleric knows, you're divine power (Typically the strongest dispensable buff) is getting ripped off ASAP when you're dispelled, followed quickly by you're other self buffs and thus your semi-advantage over the bottle version.

"But VP, you can hold / stun / slay living / whatever from invis!" - Of course you can, but I'm comparing things on an equal level here. I can also use and accuracy potion with improved power attack from invis and hit you once with a greataxe, that's irrelevant to the comparisons. Excluding a sneaky surprise, the Cleric has no means to disable an opponent that isn't more easily completed by the other classes. (Lower AB knockdowns, less affordable dispel magic, clarity and protection from alignment potions, non-mind effecting offensive spells) Even if you dispel their mind protections they can restore it before you can cast again.

As for the second portion of the mechanics, where is the Cleric love with all of those awesome new spells? Were they forgotten, avoided, or deemed unnecessary? (Once again, the new spells are awesome and this isn't a method to discredit the changes in any way)

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- When the time comes up, revisit some Cleric spells in comparison to their bottled form. Possibly make the divine potions (excluding transmutations) have a duration and effectiveness equal to their casting level.

- Add in some Cleric spells if it's possible. They did get a couple but I think the huge overhaul to Wizards has greatly depreciated the value of anything but a melee Cleric.

- Create a system that aids Clerics against dispel magic effects. Why does a cheap wand completely ruin a divine channeler of a deity? Maybe add a spell that ignores the next two abjurations cast on the cleric or add a stacking 1 SR / level to them, or give them a bonus caster level on dispel checks for every 2 levels they have. Maybe create a tangible faith rating that increases their resistance to dispels.

- In short, let them be more than 7-9 round wrecking machines (assuming they aren't dispelled in that time! :) )

Edit - Removed poorly worded example / wall of text

Actually, to clear up the point on the ritualistic drownings in the Docks, this is taken from the Region Profile:

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• Church of Umberlee - Honored by most residents of the  Docks above all is the Bitch Queen. Her priests are given a respectfully  wide berth on the streets, and no pickpocket has dared yet to lift  one's purse. Umberlee's salty grasp on the Docks is seen everywhere,  from the unquestioned ceremonial drownings conducted by Wavelord Malnusk  on the beaches to the open yet oddly un-robbed shrine in the cliffs.  Recent rumors suggest a building rivalry between the Church and the new  influence of the Ilmateri faith amongst the populace.

[/LIST]In other words, people wouldn't dare question the drownings, they're allowed because no one wants to anger Umberlee by trying to stop them.

Well right, but what isn't seen and is assumed (from my perspective ) is how he got there, which I doubt was drowning people in rituals at level 3 inside of the docks. He would be wise enough to know his limitations I think, and as an evil cleric, abuse / take advantage of them when he's strong enough to do so. That's a fully IC thing to do for someone that's evil I think.

The rewards for playing a good cleric are the same for any other class; DM assistance with your plots, loot, XP, etc. Spell failure is rare, and only given out at least in my experience when a cleric has massively failed (for example, I once gave it out to a cleric of Garagos who fled battle, and he earned it back eventually after atonement). Expectations are slightly higher, but not overbearingly so. You also failed to mention the free enemies and allies you acquire as early as character creation, which in my opinion is a great drawcard for clerics.

As for the mechanical stuff, I think clerics are of middling power. On paper, they seem extremely good, but in practice wizards just do everything better than them and are generally much more valuable to a party. I suggest several new divine-only EFU spells (and have ideas for some) which will assist in closing the gap between the runaway wizard and the somewhat lagging cleric.

Didn't really understand alot of your post though, especially the Valla Djurn shit.

It was to be an example of dogma vs alignment and which should be / is more important. Poorly worded perhaps, I removed it.

I can't really judge well since I do not really play that many real clerics, but I think it would be cool if eventually all the domains were looked over and revamped.

There is a lot of disparity in power between various gods/domains that makes people tend to favor specific ones/combinations more heavily than seems desirable, and I find it would make individual clerics possibly more unique.

With the overarching balance issues as mentioned above I think it would be the coolest and easiest place to make flavorful changes while addressing them through different spells, properties, so on.

I actually find due to their naturally higher spellslots, Clerics make superior buffbots to Wizards, excepting their lack of II and Haste. They can put out quite a bit of AC buff.
 
What clerics lack mechanically they do make up for with the ability to craft potions, and depending on their domains this can be worth a tidy sum of coins if you go that route.
 
They also have those turn undead perks.
 
That being said, anything that adds more Flavor to clerics would be awesome, including new spells or a consecration system for Clerics/Druids.

In a vacuum, clerics are very powerful.  However, the EfU:A item economy renders a lot of a cleric's holy functions pretty redundant.  They really are outclassed in either respect by fighter/rogues and by wizards, which, while it doesn't ruin the potential for enjoying a cleric by any stretch, does remove a lot of the IC credibility when your character performs divine miracles that a common plant leaf can perform just as well!

I think a mild increase to the difficulty of dispelling cleric spells would serve as an in-character testament to a cleric's faith and persevering loyalty to a divine ideal.  It seems, at least on face, to make sense that a devout holy warrior would be more adamant about maintaining their spells than a dispassionate wizard.

I'd suggest a very modest bonus, like: a level 8+ cleric's spells are counted as being one level higher for the sake of determining whether they are stripped or not by a dispel.

1)  Clerics get a lot of the new spells anyway, and they don't need a scroll for them.

2)  Clerics get a lot of new, awesome, custom domains.

They're hardly overlooked.

And I totally disagree with Caddies, they're far from a middling class.

But I digress.  They probably could use a fun system like consecration implementing fully, but that's going to take time, and it's not a priority at the minute.

Was this an April Fool's troll?

Maybe!

Quote from: Howland;232247Was this an April Fool's troll?

It was posted on the second and some of the points are valid, so I doubt it.

Depending upon your timezone, it was posted the 1st or 2nd. Regardless, I don't buy any argument at all that clerics are underpowered. Making consecration do something interesting would be nice, though.

I don't exactly think that clerics are underpowered. I do think that there must be something about them that makes them a less played base class, because you don't see many of them. Are people intimidated by the RP demands? Or do they simply not seem 'fun' enough when compared to other classes?

I'm an avid cleric player and they aren't underpowered.
 
For me they are pretty much balanced, if Consecration did something useful/interesting not requiring a DM they would be up there with our Wizard Overlords.
 
Couple of points to consider.

• They have access to class unique and particularly useful spells e.g. Negative Plane Protection, Spell Resistance (druids as well), Divine Favour and Hammer of Gods.
• They get higher spell slots but without the need for max'd stats e.g. a 16 wisdom cleric still gets 2 x Circle 5 slots at lvl 9, nice.
• Some domains are excellent and they have a perk that is arguably one of the most mechanically effect available.

Yalta wizards get 2 slots also, you just need to have a specific  school selected. With clerics you need to have domains selected, which is mandatory. Much like the wizard extra spell slots being for spells from the school of focus, the clerical extra spell slots were designed to be used for domain spells.

Clerics are fairly powerful. However they're not ~more~ powerful than a fighter or a barbarian and what little power they do have can be taken away or reduced substantially if they make the wrong choices. Unlike the fighter or the barbarian.

Some people just don't like feeling stressed to roleplay portray everything that comes with being a cleric. Cleric just isn't enticing enough. That said I don't think buffing it would help. The best class in the game is paladin after all and look how many of those we have <_<

Anything other than a melee cleric is certainly possible, generally if it fits with the Domains. And some of said domains are outrageously powerful.

• Say you want to blast things? Evil gives you a bunch of necromantic direct damage spells. Storm gives you Gust of Wind at Level Two and more offence besides. Sun gives you low-level Searing Lights.Rune gives you Delayed Fireball at L4.
  
• Spells lets you pack Lesser Dispel into your L1 slots and be a counterspell nightmare or even throw them out at mobs.
• Ooze, Chaos, Gnome, Caverns, Darkness. All give you AoE spells to control a battlefield with. ANY cleric gets Scare.
• Planning gives you See Invis *and* Extend spell, a prizewinning anti-magegank combination if ever there was one.
• Want to be a buffer? Try Good, Metal, or Trickery. Or realise you can add +2 AC to Fullplate and extended Divine Shield someone for some sweet AC with low level spells.
• Want to command an army? Animal Domain, elemental domain, or use the fact you get Animate Dead at L3. Top that up with Whisperer and you have an invisible thug team on demand.

Saying that clerics don't get enough non-buff or offence spells is like complaining that a melee Sorcerer has insufficient AB. You're doing a non-standard tactic, expect issues. Clerics have the same number of spells/level as a Wizard, with D8 HP,  fullplate, shields, Simple Weapons and AB. No, you can't blow up an army  on most clerics, but that's why you've got all the other stuff.

Quote from:  "Not VP"Create a system that aids Wizards against dispel magic effects. Why does  a cheap wand completely ruin an expert who has spent thirty years perfecting the defensive aspects of magic?

Dispel spam also screws over Sorcs, Wizards, and Bards. And they have the least effective defences, where s a L9 Cleric has Turn/level Spell Resistance, which will happily block dispel wands. If you have protection Domain, you get Lesser Globe of Invulnerability on top of that, no dispels for 7 rounds or more and the SR has a good chance vs high level spells!

So, your buffs aren't any better than bottles? Use potions yourself and carry an offensive loadout of dispels followed by stuns, summons or debuffs. Only slot the spells that will be better than or unavailable from consumables. Incidentally, Divine Favour potions will count your caster level for the damage and AB on a cleric.

I will, however accept that some spells could be better to encourage more variety in spell use. If any changes below aren't too hard, they could encourage Cleric players to react rather than buff.

• Make Doom and Bane non mind-affecting, they are relatively modest debuffs that won't break the game if they can work through PFX for PVP.
• Make Healing spells work MUCH better when cast by any PC than off an item. Currently even with healing domain, trinkets can be better than any PC caster (CL 10 and 15 devices) and you can have hundreds of uses stashed. I would suggest that if cast by a PC, they add a few turns  of Temporary Hitpoints or rounds of +1 regeneration in addition to the spell, and that the cap on how many levels you add to the roll be removed. Make them worth using over a buff.
• Inflict spells already have the Death Channels perk, but a minor buff to Inflict Light Wounds could be good. For example, uncapping the Caster Level or removing the touch attack for that spell only. Make it into a true L1 offence spell.
• Make Command not Mind-affecting. That turns it into the caster equivalent of KD. It's only ever a 1 round effect, so not worth burning a Dispel to make sure of working.
• Change Soundburst to deal 1 rounds stun + 1 per 2 caster levels or 1d4 damage per 2 Caster levels or something. Wouldn't affect loot, would make it a good choice for bards and Cleric

QuoteYalta wizards get 2 slots also, you just need to have a specific  school
selected. With clerics you need to have domains selected, which is mandatory

Yes good point Naga, shows how much I play wizards. Though the spell school has significant penalties for bringing it even with a Cleric.

Removing the heal caps on CASTED healing spells might do wonders...

Like, 1d4*level for light healing

1d6*level for moderate

1d8*level for serious

1d10*level for critical.

Doesn't healing domain work with heal trinkets? or am I mistaken?
 
Wizards get 2 slots if they spec yes, but they have to give something up for that. Clerics only -gain- with their domains.

Clerics are balanced. Wizards are just invariably better at absolutely everything, and are thus IMO unbalanced. That's the problem.

Wizards are invariably better at absolutely everything? Really?

... spell resistance, turning, turn perks, divine power, hammer of the gods, slay living, much better necromancy, better save progression, better BAB progression - and I could go on. Wizards are powerful of course but they still have plenty of weaknesses and are by no means out of control.

Anyway, I hope to not get drawn into some kind of silly class balance thread.

I played a cleric. Easily my most powerful character. All I did was buff myself and tank things. I thought this was balanced by the fact I had a 'code' of sorts I had to live by and try to promote, so I couldn't be a complete questing fool.

They have a lot of strong points, few weaknesses. Other characters outshine them in different situations. Well played clerics will have gifts from their diety and several followers. Whatever 'weak points' they have will be covered by their buddies.

SR can be stripped instantly with a L4 wizard spell, as well as successive dispels (extremely common in the current PvP metagame) rendering it useless.

The prevalance of Dispels in PvP also means divine power is very likely to get stripped - of course, I do agree it is a very strong spell.

Turning is a middling ability at best. High CR on all the most important monsters on the big quests means you won't be turning anything that actually poses a threat. While a cleric wastes a round turning a wizard is casting haste on your tank or healing an injured party member.

Hammer of the Gods is a pretty terrible spell, low damage and only a daze effect. Wizards get much better crowd control spells (Confusion, Gust of Wind, Fear, etc) and much better single target and AoE damage spells (Fireball, Flamebrand, Ice Storm...) at DCs usually at least 4 higher and without needing to waste a valuable haste potion to lay down in quick succession (always being under the effect of extended haste when it matters).

Once again, on paper a cleric gets better save progression but when you factor in Spellcraft (most good wizards of high level getting 25-30, sometimes more!) then that becomes irrelevant, not to mention they have more points to dispense into save-related abilities (DEX in particular) at creation.

Better BAB, yeah - but that's inconsequential because a wizard is, offensively, much more terrifying than a cleric.

I really must insist wizards are comparatively much more powerful than clerics. In every single area, whether it be support, versatility, offense, defense, buffing...any mechanical aspect other than controlling low HD mobs of unthreatening undead, wizards are better - and I think therein lies the imbalance.

Anyway, we can probably discuss this in IRC at some point!

Wizards are not better than clerics at melee tanking.

50% concealment, immunity to AoOs, 10/+5 DR, 30+ AC - yes they are.

A cleric > a melee mage any day.
A non melee mage is godlike.. for the 60 seconds he spends spamming all of his spells. No more

The thread wasn't about clerics being underpowered but more a general concern and discussion thread. They are, as stated, a middling class (at best) and don't really suffer a ton, but they also don't shine at all. They have serious issues that were pointed out in the overly long first post and I think those issues are just ignored because they are able to squeeze by.

Let's put it this way - The only class that cannot fully recuperate itself from being dispelled is a Cleric.  Even if you are completely selfish with your blessings you'll very quickly find yourself destroyed by dispel magic, whether it's in PvP where everyone and their first born child know to dispel clerics for a free win, or in PvE where the lengthy quest designs allow for maybe two sets of spells (while being hit with countless dispel magics on any high end quest)

SR requires level 9 to use and grants 21 SR. That looks great on paper, but when it quickly becomes 19, 17, or 15 within 18 seconds (assuming they aren't casting it themselves from haste, and assuming I'm in incorrect and it's even worse, decreasing by 4 with successive dispel magic attempts, i forget) it's basically useless.

This thread is LOL. Clerics consistently are some of the scariest PCs around. They usually just meet inglorious conflict oriented ends prematurely because of the rigors of their RP. A level 10 cleric is super scary + powerful.

I just wanted to point out that I do not think clerics are underpowered at all. In fact I think they're very well balanced. Its just that wizards are better at everything they do. Why wizards (already the strongest class) got all the buffs doesn't make sense to me.

Adding a few nice divine only spells would probably be the best way to eliminate the disparity without having to nerf wizards.

It has occured to me some people don't understand what needs to be done to properly play a cleric. In order to help, I have devised a guide to be of assistance for aspiring clerics in EFU.

FONGS GUIDE TO GREAT CLERICING
1. Research a god on the forums. Pick somethiing you think is cool or assign them numbers and roll a die. This is only important so far as acting like you care about your god and doing stupid RP stuff.

2. Here's what you need on your sheet: at least 14 str, 14 con, 14 wis. Allocate additional points wherever, it really doesn't matter.

3. Feats like extend spell and/or knockdown are cool but not really necessary. I had a highly successful melee cleric with Imp. Expertise and SF Lore. This part doesn't honestly matter.

4. Get heavy armor, heavy shield, and morningstar. Equip them. Replace with better stuff as you are able.

5. Prepare long running spells that will give you a higher base attack, damage, and AC. Cast them on yourself.

6. Recruit another PC to watch your awesome and hear you talk smack about how great your god is. Not really necessary but you need at least two people for most quests.

7. Start quest. Attack enemies by clicking on them. If you did the last two steps right and occasionally heal yourself, you will have no issues. Doesn't matter what the other guy does, have him carry loot or something.

8. Leave and take most of the loot. Make sure to close quest for XP and possible gold reward.

Provided you follow and repeat the above steps as necessary, you will enjoy great success as a cleric. I wish you all the best and look forward to seeing your characters!

Quote from: Yalta;232271Yes good point Naga

What is this, some sort of courteous round table discussion? This sort of etiquette repulses me.

Clerics are a tough class to play because they are definitely demanding. I hold an admiration for those that can pull it off and maintain the air of respect they deserve. DMs and players alike can really be drawn towards a well played cleric, especially ones that value just how powerful an established deity overhead can be.

At the end of the day, its just easier for the multi-classed fighter along with a wizard at his back to get the job done and pull in the glory along with the reverence that should probably already exist when dealing with a cleric.

In terms of mechanics, they are powerful. Even more so when they take a step back and let their recruited faithful step out in front of them.

As far as i know, in NWN general clerics are the strongest of the pure-classes for the all-round purposes. In EFU buffs to others classes make them somewhat even. They don't need change.

What we need are clerics that actually preach IMO. And non-rogue archers.

What?

Stop whining again.

Quote from: Nufferz;232338What is this, some sort of courteous round table discussion? This sort of etiquette repulses me.

Clerics are a tough class to play because they are definitely demanding. I hold an admiration for those that can pull it off and maintain the air of respect they deserve. DMs and players alike can really be drawn towards a well played cleric, especially ones that value just how powerful an established deity overhead can be.

At the end of the day, its just easier for the multi-classed fighter along with a wizard at his back to get the job done and pull in the glory along with the reverence that should probably already exist when dealing with a cleric.

Wow awesome point man I read this somewhere before in this thread but I can't recall where.

Also I agree etiquette is bad, also agreeing with people is bad, oh shit.

Why are we discussing this with an MMO (WoW) / RTS frame of mind regarding "balance?"

Are we not here to roleplay and to weave marvelous tales for the community to experience and partake in?

If we are so overly concerned about mechanics that for the most part others do not have issue with. I think one has their mind in the wrong place.

Creativity is part of roleplay and furthermore many mechanical issues can be solved with a little creative thinking. Try it some time.

After all we are not talking about a bug that is obviously ruining the game here. This seems to be a subjective critique and such has value on its own and at least opens up your woes for others to analyse and contribute their thoughts to.

In conclusion, if you really can't get over it, play a different role or class.

Yes, Aethereal, you bring up a great conclusion remark. Arguing about class 1 on 1 in a vacuum is silly.

It's easier to come up with Wizard addition which was probably why some DMs focused more on them... It doesn't really matter in the end so long. Playing a weak character is fun, too. Regardless, we do have something in the work to make FAITH amongst characters more important through prayers, etc. Some system that will oversee when you call a God, etc.

We're also working in some stuff where it will be possible for clerics to have followers amongst NPCs. etc.

These are really the stuff I want to focus on, developping the RP xp and giving them some benefices for working through them.

These things take time to iron out and work out the details, but they will be sweet! We're also working on stuff for druids, every class really has something in the work.