This goes considering the necromanctic raise of the marksman PrC. Since ranged weapons are so underused (with good reason, they are horrible in most scenarios) could a perk be implemented so that dedicated archers/slingers/crossbowmen don't suck?
Marksman
You gain +2 damage when using ranged weapons.
You gain an extra +2 damage when using crossbows.
You get a -1 AB penalty on melee weapons.
*not throwing weapons
To give a perspective...
Human figther, level 7, uses 5 feats: 1-10+6 damage, +12/+7 AB. (crossbow)
Elf ranger, level 7, uses 3 feats: 1-8+2 (+2 vs favored enemy) damage, +11/+11/+6 AB. (+3 vs favored enemy) (Longbow)
Halfling rogue, level 7, uses 3 feats: 1-4+2 damage, AB +10/+10 and sneak attack 4d6. (Sling)
*All assuming unbuffed and min-maxed stats
I've managed to land consistant 60 damage crits from a screen away with a longbow with the current commonly available/purchasable items. Shortbow is the same except it does 2 less possible damage, so 6 less on a crit.
Slings are amazing for halfling rogues as due to size modifier and thier +1 ab for slings they completely negate the rogues diminished bab.
Crossbows are simple weapons useable by most classes.
Ranged weapons being poor is just a popular misconception.
Relying in 5% chance of doing decent damage is not very smart. Especially because a critical, unless you leand it with that +3 mighty bow and WS is likely to deal something arround 12-15 damage. What a buffed-greatsword fighter deals every round, a little less even. 5-10% of the time. Also rogues make good arcers. But they shouldn't be the only posible archers. And archers should be able to damage constructs and undead (i don't see why slingers couldn't harm a riser, or a crossbow bolt a clay golem)
Not comenting anymore on this thread, or i'll end up in a discussion and stress everyone out.
Ranged weapons do not need boosting at all. Theres plent of ammo you can find IG that adds to this damage or even have other on hit effects which are very useful.
Also- ranged weapons have a feat where they can add an additional attack each round (Rapid Shot).
So just imagine.. a level 8 rogue with a longbow:
2 attacks per round + 1 from rapid shot +1 haste
4 attacks at 4d6 (Sneak attack) +1d8 Longbow damage
=
128 damage in 1 round with a mundane longbow with no risk of being in close combat without even scoring a critical hit which for Bows is x3.. so really doesn't need a boost.
People who are playing non-rogue archers will likely be playing a full BAB class which means you have the benefit of hitting more often and not having to risk anything while still having access to some amazing ammo.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;231242Marksman
You gain +2 damage when using ranged weapons.
You gain an extra +2 damage when using crossbows.
Also.. are you suggesting a perk adds +4 damage to crossbows..?
Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot = Ambidexterity/Dual Wield
A melee weapon can do all that + 1d6 flame weapon or Alch fire damage + 1 AB and DR beating from MW. Please try and base assumptions on average damage output not max crits. A max damage crit or sneak can feasibly kill most things, but it's rarely going to happen and you can't base a strategy around it.
The major problem is because of the weapon damage type (piercing) and lack of +Ab, they absolutely suck against the many undead, werecreatures and other DRed things on the server unless you get lucky and get a DM uber bow. Or spam a magic weapon wand onto 1 stack of darts at a time. At least this has got better since the quest range expanded. Also, you can take Called shot and try and slow stuff you can't damage, dull though that is.
I would suggest that this perk only be availably to PCs WITHOUT Rogue levels. With a Rogue it doesn't matter what weapon you use, it's a Sneak Attack delivery system. You just choose something with +AB or bonus dmg vs your target, or what weapon you focused in. The Sneak Attacks generally overwhelm DR if you can fire one.
Ranged weapons don't suck totally, in fact if every PC who could use one had a Longbow or Crossbow, a lot of quests would be simplified by mass barrages to thin out mobs or or where not all the team can pile into a small space to fight. I recall a DM event where everyone was trapped on one side of a ravine trying to kill an NPC. Only half the PCs had the brains to bring a ranged weapon, even just a sling that weighs 0.1lb. That said, it would be nice to see an alternative to the ever-parroted "Just Take Rogue levels DURRRR" for someone who wants to play a bow master without choosing an Arcane Archer or Assassin build.
Also a very nice combo to go with Ranged weapons is the Set Trap Skill. In both PvE and PvP.
ugh this topic
If you want to make a special marksman perk to add flavor, sort of like "Skeleton in the closet" for necromancers it' simple:
Bowman Perk: Every reset obtaining a unique set of arrows not found in any store, obtained through specialist contacts. Nothing overly strong but unique archer flavor.
I'd rather have that over a flat bonus to damage, or that other "Marksman PRC" that was suggested if I ever play ranged PC.
Considering the Arcane Archer prc gives you the ability to make arrows as stated in the description. A perk would sort of remove the uniqueness of it.
Isn't dealing dmg from a mile away perk enough?
A bow, Can kill someone as easily as a sword, and to be honest should hit harder then one, and faster, but- Should be utterly useless in close range combat. So I sugest a change to the perk.
+1 ab and +2 damage at 20M+ away.
-1 ab and -2 damage within 20M
They honestly don't need it.. besides thats like weapon specialisation and weapon focus thrown in for free. Perks are for flavour not mechanical advantages.
A perk providing a +1 damage bonus on all ranged weapons would not be stretching it, imho. Before shooting down the OP, consider the fact that ranged weapons are in fact scarcely used because of their innate weaker nature. For the sake of the argument, I could say that it makes up for being the only type of weapon insusceptible to weapon enchantments.
Quote from: One_With_Nature;231277They honestly don't need it.. besides thats like weapon specialisation and weapon focus thrown in for free. Perks are for flavour not mechanical advantages.
They are for flavor, but they also provide mechanical advantages in almost every single case. Ranged weapon users do need some loving.
Not this kind. I'm against it. Too much, imo. RwG's suggestion might be kinda nice however.
I've heard what the AA arrows do, and think making weaker ones craftable would be cool. The problem is, once you have a good melee weapon you are set for life, but you can burn through a stack of 99 good arrows in literally 5 min, then you're back to using basic ones. Playing a Rapid Shot PC in the past, I have filled an inventory page with ammo to do long quests like Hive. Also, due to the Mighty limitations, you get less out of buffs. A dual wield PC can have as many attacks as a Rapid Shot char, but using Strength buffs and weapon buffs to up the damage.
All of these buffs are far and away more cost-effective than buying ammo, and more RP promoting. Since you can buy them off PCs (potions, scrolls, wands), but ammo is only from price gouging NPCs. For example, Alch Fire is 24 gp for 4 rounds of 1d4+1 Fire damage. So you'd expect +1d4 Fire arrows to cost maybe 5 GP each, as you'd get through 12 of the things in 4 rounds, but you'd not need to spend 1 round applying it. I've suggested before letting Flame Weapon and Alch Fire work on stacks of 99 arrows, or having it add some kind of weak Unlimited Ammo function (Possibly using the fact you can now make custom Unlimited Ammo effects)
Just my 2 cents. People don't see a use for archers who aren't Sneak Attack spammers, not least because they can't use key buffs a meleer can. Having those buffs apply weaker bonuses to ranged weapons (+1 Ab but not dmg from Magic Weapon, +2, +1d4, +1d6 fire damage to arrows) would let them benefit from buff spells rather than burn money on more supplies than a meleer needs to be effective.
I think one good idea though would be to have some powerful ranged weapons that are restricted against Rogue use. For example a +4 Mighty OUB Fighter/Ranger/Barb/Wizard/Sorc/Bard bow //Do Not UMD.
I'll break my promise just to say something quick.
+2 damage may seem too much, consider there is no flame weapon or magic weapon for bows. And you can most add +3 with that mighty bow wich also gives -2 AC, to reach that +3 chances are you'll need bulls str, you'll still do less damage than a figher buffed with bull's STR and any 1d8 damage weapon.
+4 may be too much, but conider you'll need 3 feats to be able to shoot twice per round if your have a BAB of 6, in order for this to be effective. +3 seems fine.
AA still get the the AB to pierce blur, and 3 fireball-arrows, in addition to 1 extra daamge.
And yes, the point is to avoid Rogue archers, better even if the perk would be restricted to non-rogues imo.
Dual wield has the same attacks sure. But you can't attack from two fireballs distance. if we're going to start making crazy comparisons why not complain about Empowered Isaacs Greater Missle Storm doing more damage than a greataxe on average.
Playing an archer is not easy to do well. If you do it wrong you'll be a useless potplant good for nothing.
I'd love to have an archer in one of my groups who knows how to play one. They destroy mage type monsters before they even have a chance to cast. They also do great against monsters that "flee" as they ignore those targets dodge ac most of the time. They don't often have to use many supplies, so when it comes to distribution they don't need much other than gold for specialist ammo.
In pvp you simply bring your special ammo's out to play. Crushing a mage with a see invis pot is so amazingly easy as an archer. It's hilarious, even if they buff up to around 25~ ac the average for a wizard, you should be able to get at least +15/+10/+15 by level 7 which will cut through thier d4 hp in no time at all.
If an enemy so much as look at you, keep expid retreat up and just run around and fire. It is literally impossible to catch up with somebody who runs and shoots if they have any kind of speed enhancement. Even if they drink haste, so long as your speed is the same as thiers and you never fire more than one shot, they cannot possibly ever reach you, unless you stumble on something or get dispelled.
I'd could go on and on about the massive advantages to ranged weapons in pve and pvp. I'd have brought up stuff like how it's a rogue sneak attack delivery system that can cause monsters to waste a round trying to reach an impossible to reach archer, but you mentioned wanting this more so for non rogue archers.
Exactly, Naga. A PC with rogue levels doesn't care what they use as long as they can hit someone with it from behind. A specialist in one weapon can't switch weapons at whim. I know the benefits of ranged weapons. It's generally my PCs standing in disbelief after saying "Quick, shoot those!" and all the Fighters shuffling around muttering about not being able to spare 3 lbs for a longbow. 10-12 DEX but full BAB means you're still useful vs fleeing NPC mages or weak shooters you can't charge. Special ammo is good yes, but the rarity is the issue. There are a few good bits of shoploot, but in general you do save it for PVP as you'll burn it all out on one quest. Yes, you can make certain ammo types in the crafting systems, but that's low-yield and hit and miss as to what you discover.
As for the comparison, yes you get a ton of range, but we know that. My point is that in exchange for that, you lose being able to use any sort of buff that lets you cut past DR to some degree (+elemental damage, MW, Power Attack). As we know, between 5-10 DR mobs and Blur pots, there's a lot of that going around.
We've got a perk for unarmed combat, which isn't too much of a gimp choice when you can easily have buffable +2 or even +1d4 gloves and can't be disarmed or need to carry any weighty weapons. We've got ones that mechanically reward focusing on certain spells, when blasting things with AoE spells has always been a decent option. Adding a perk for PCs that focus on ranged combat rather than "whatever gets me the backstabs" looks on balance to be less powerful than the Ele Bond Perks for example.
Ranged weapons don't need to be boosted.
If you can't get any results, you're doing it wrong.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, +1 AB longbows drop in the module.
Chiming in here since I play a primary ranged low ab character. From what i've seen, ranged weapons are mostly for their utility and the diversity of ammunition.
My dinky 1d4 dmg makes me wish I had intended to take some rogue lvls, mind. But my characters primary purpose is musical support, so any ranged dmg I can throw in with a sling is just gravy.
Porkolt: They do, but it is impossible to acquire a selection to allow you to cope with most foes, nor have I ever seen any that help against Undead or Shapechangers, the main DR things. Nor any that are +1 AND Mighty. These may exist of course, but if so they are too rare to be useful.
Unfortunately for us, all of Naga's comparisons are
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;231458crazy comparisons
For all the mechanically adept taking stands out here, comprehension of why you are in denial of a ranged weapon being less useful than a melee weapon in every single conceivable situation asides from shooting down 8hp dispelling NPCs is lost on me. YES!
Even in PvP when your target runs away at near dead, there are
far better ways readily available to take them out.
The exception being a PrC or a rogue, picking up a focus in melee weapons is always the better choice. I'm all for diversity and if it takes a minor perk (in the form of +1 damage) to see it promoted, I say yay.
As far as I´m concerned, the topic ended with Naga.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;231490Porkolt: They do, but it is impossible to acquire a selection to allow you to cope with most foes, nor have I ever seen any that help against Undead or Shapechangers, the main DR things. Nor any that are +1 AND Mighty. These may exist of course, but if so they are too rare to be useful.
Then work for it and get DM loot.
Quote from: Udenbur;231493Unfortunately for us, all of Naga's comparisons are
For all the mechanically adept taking stands out here, comprehension of why you are in denial of a ranged weapon being less useful than a melee weapon in every single conceivable situation asides from shooting down 8hp dispelling NPCs is lost on me. YES! Even in PvP when your target runs away at near dead, there are far better ways readily available to take them out.
The exception being a PrC or a rogue, picking up a focus in melee weapons is always the better choice. I'm all for diversity and if it takes a minor perk (in the form of +1 damage) to see it promoted, I say yay.
The reason you don't comprehend it is because it's an semi-advanced tactic that you've never been exposed to or made use of due to you personally being deadset in your opinion that archers are bad and not worth playing.
The only thing I'm short of doing at the minute is taking screenshots and drawing arrows...
When I say "fleeing targets" I mean Flayer, Slinger, Orc Sorcerer etc. Those targets run constantly until cornered.
The benifit of ranged attacks for sneak attacks, for you and anybody else who has never played a ranged sneak attacker is simple. When your tank is engaged with three targets, if you sneak attack a target that is pinned between two enemies, it will break off for a round negating any damage taken by your tank, and/or give the tank/flankers an attack of oppertunity.
In pvp you break out the easy to obtain 1d4~1d6 ammo that you've been hording, knock back a see invis and aim weak targets or your warriors target from a safe distance. If your warrior gets crit one shot, you can simply run away as you already have a gigantic distance from your opponents. if your opponents do attempt to flee you can throw a tangle bag or keep shooting if they're low. it's really not that hard...
So yeah benifit of ranged weapon over melee weapon is not having to be within melee range where the strongest weapons can strike you.
I'm going to try and jog this thread off its increasing circular arguments. What *harm* does it do to allow a ranged specialist to trade a little effectiveness in melee for a little extra damage that places them above Joe Bow? Is this opposition in case we see Longbow chars slaughtering Generic Greataxe Barbs left right and centre? I think not. As you've said, hard to use well.
There are Perks that:
- Add flavourful but powerful effects to offence spells, that have encouraged offensive mages fron all schools to use spells when questing more, and to show off their specialisation.
- Give your entire team +1 divine dmg off a cheap potion.
- Trade 2 Dex for most of the benefits of +2 Con, encouraging fat PCs actually existing.
Those are pretty handy perks, and in comparison, a buff to promote an underused weapon line and see people use your "semi advanced tactics" of Kill The Wounded Runner. Heck, I draw bows or cantrip wands on Near Death NPCs on most chars, because why chase them all over town? We know
you can make a kickass archer, so no need to go rolling up an alt and claiming it proves you right over everything.
Most players will see the low damage and lack of buffs for a bow and think "why bother with this as a primary weapon?" A perk would give a little nudge in power, but more importantly let a PC state "I am a True Archer" as a point of their concept. I mean, that's what perks are for. A little boost for your PC in their defining feature.
Good thing most people don't use Ghostly Visage in PvP and that bows combining Mighty and DR penetration aren't rare.
[SIZE="1"]O wait![/SIZE]
Well hooked in on what I said here,
Quotehe exception being a PrC or a rogue
- ranged weapons are indeed quite nice for rogues!
Reading all of this though, it seems that you are comparing the benefits with the benefits, completely neglecting the cons. If ranged weapons were so useful as you make them out to be both in PvP & PvE I'm sure that after some X years of NWN some of us would have seen the light instead of staying true to their melee weapons.
Enough on this, more on Egon's point
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;231518Most players will see the low damage and lack of buffs for a bow and think "why bother with this as a primary weapon?" A perk would give a little nudge in power, but more importantly let a PC state "I am a True Archer" as a point of their concept. I mean, that's what perks are for. A little boost for your PC in their defining feature.
Precisely. Look around, the perks include p.much everyone. Necromancers, bloody savages, stealthers, nature characters, big boned men and women, the list goes on. Let's shed some love on the marksmen while we're at it
What the hell is wrong with you guys? Why can't you discuss things of value? By all means a minor ranged damage perk would be fine to add but guess what, there's a million perks that'd be nice to to add and it's really just up to a DM wanting to take the time to add some perks or not. You think when mort finishes his exams, finishes the first 20 things on his list of things to do, and then decides if he wants to add some more perks or not he'll base his decision based off of the contents of this or any other thread?
I am convinced the time spent on this argument could be better used for other things.
LOCKED.