Too good, imo.
I know it has a counter, but the counter isnt scribe-able, and thus not very prevalent.
There aren't enough items with the counter in them to use.
It makes a class that is arguably among the best classes there is (Wizards) better, and makes one that is arguably among the worst (rogues) worse, in that it takes away from the need to hire rogues for spying.
Its too easy. You cast the spell, pick a player name and go. Sure, you need to be by a thingy, but there is no reason NOT to do so.
In pen and paper, you need personal knowledge of the person you are scrying, whether it be in carrying something they owned, or whatnot.
I suggest that a special component be required to scry, a'la Raise Dead requiring a Diamond. If you want to scry someone, you need to shell out 500 gold for the components. (DMs can figure out the price).
Then of course, a recipe can be added to Alchemy that will allow that item to be made, but with a high DC, to spawn a player market on said item.
P
This may be a good idea; casually allowing a wizard to scry like crazy is only going to result in the best plan being one made up spur of the moment. It shouldn't have a redic cost, but it should be tougher than "take spell, prep it, go to easy-to-reach device, scry"
Who needs Rogue guilds. Just hire a Diviner. Always said that EFU is too small for scrying.
I do think that there should be a means of making scrying harder to achieve, however I think that with a decent level of RP to support a diviner it can be used as a wonderful tool to encourage conflict and plotting.
I wouldn't like to see it made in to something that nobody uses, as it is a cool feature for the server, at least in my opinion. But I agree it is far too easy to scry any and everyone, and there should be some penalty to avoid it being used quite so frequently. I think that people using scrying should aim for a responsible, and plausible usage for the spell, such as only using it only people you actually know in game etc.
Quote3. There is a roll vs spell DC to make you find out whether anyone is scrying and who it might be.
My 9th level Cleric has been scry'ed on, and I can say that as of yet I have never known it. What is this DC? And does it only count if you are the target of the spell? What if you are one of the people talking to the target? Do you have to be so close to the target of the spell for the scryer to know you are there? Or just in hearing range? These are all things that determine just how powerful this spell is.
if it is only the target you can hear and the DC is semi realistic (Lower than 30) then it's fine.
If everyone in the "hearing" range is effected by the spell.. well do each get a chance to know someone is 'watching'? If yes, then cool. If no.. well then perhaps they need to.
To need a Cleric or Wizard anytime you want to plot is somewhat extreme. (And hope they have the spell ready and are high enough level to cast it.)
I like the idea of the spell, just hope it's not being over used.. as it takes some of the fun of 'conflict' out of the game when you have no idea you are even being watched.
It's not really the same. Scryers don't need to know where their target is, or unless I'm mistaken about it, anything other than the character name obtained from the player list.
Listen is far far easier to get than warding.
1 - The scrying h8 is interesting to me, because I think a lot of it is founded from misinformation and general OOC paranoia from our "team nature" clique. It's just kind of funny to me. "Scrying"gets blamed for a lot of stuff in an OOC way when it isn't even involved.
2 - I do agree though that PCs should only scry PCs that they are familiar with or studied extensively. A system to incorporate this is on the to-do list, and in the meantime we as DMs do ask those very few players who have access to this to respect that.
3 - I do like the dynamic scrying adds, because our server actually is enormous and it's one theoretical tool that can be used to track down otherwise undetectable high stealth PCs who hide in the wilds.
4 - With a relatively achievable DC, targets can IC'ly know exactly who is trying to scry upon them and respond as they see fit.
5 - There are various ways to counter it: items that are extremely common in a low level quest, items in ambient loot, items in various other scripted quests. If it's a private conversation, you can also just - oh, I don't know - walk five steps to the left and whisper.
6 - There are very few scrying focuses. While scrying, the wizard is totally vulnerable and PCs have already been killed because they were caught while scrying in this vulnerable spot.
I'm not opposed by any means by adding more counters or tweaking the spell, but I do want to take this opportunity to mention my own perspective, hopefully clear up some misconceptions, and express some vague and general disappointment that some people seem to choose to respond to it with such OOC dislike.
Scrying seems to me a powerful too, but one that comes at a heavy cost: The need for specific locations where you can scry, which either leave you extremely dangerous and exposed (from what I understand), or are items used in safer locations through to perks offered as a DM reward or application. Either way, an investment of several feats which made a previously useless Spell School slightly more popular (No Diviner Overlord influx to which we bend the knee) has made it an interesting spell and Spell School. But again, from what I understand there's several easy ways to counter this; 3 classes can anti-scry, Spellcraft to detect is available to a further 5 base classes, there's plenty of areas immunity to scrying within this server.
So perhaps using /w under a shadowy tree in a forgotten forest isn't the best means of conversation any more. There's plenty of alternatives.
Quote from: Eraamion;229930Most people have no idea they are being watched or stalked by uber-stealth sneaks either, so I think at the end it balances out. Warding against scrying is much cheaper than Clairaudience/Clairvoyance against the stealthy folk.
You are right, but the uber-stealth sneak needs to be in hearing range, and runs the risk of being caught. Even if you learn you are being 'watched' there is no instant fear of retribution for the scry'er.
It's rather easy to stay out of harms way when you can listen in from a distance.
Like I said, I like the idea of the spell, I would just hate for it to be being over used. There should be some risk in learning others secrets.
I am in a bit of a quandary here as I have experimented once or twice with scrying and I am not sure if I am spoiling stuff by revealing its shortcomings. It might be a FOIG thing but it has at least one that makes rogue spying far superior in comparison.
I will say this: 'Region' is somewhat badly defined. When I initially experimented, I thought it might possibly mean the same area or its vicinity, but now I am wondering if when you speak of a 'region' you are considering the entire island of Ymph one region, the Underdark another and small islands a third.
I do not know if anyone has ever spied on Karrin but I have never ever received a message of being scried on. Even so, that can also be sidestepped by only picking on poor save targets that might be part of the same plots you want information about. Example: You want to spy on the pesky Wildfolk. You don't target their cleric or their sorcerer, you go for their rogue or their warrior...
The odds that you are being scried upon is minimal, even if you are there are number of countermeasures that are free. You can resort to passing notes or using coded speech. You can mix up the information, never reveal a single plan in it's entirety. Getting warding isn't impossible, pitting up requests to buy warding is always available.
Sneaking is still an incredible way of gaining information. And might I mention, about a billion other things as well. Scrying is suppose to be dangerous, it's suppose to make people feel like their privacy is being violated. And it's very very cool. React IG; heck I haven't played a single PC who didn't end up with a few warding items. and for the right price I would totally sell a few.
Anyway, I kinda think that most people are overreacting.
Comparing scrying with stealth is just stupid in so many ways.
I sort of agree with the OP though, my personal opinion is that scrying is just a bit too powerful. I don't really consider needing to go to specific areas very dangerous, given their locations - you'd have to be ABYSMALLY unlucky for your enemies to 'happen' by when you're scrying...and if you're scrying, you'd be wise to where they are anyway?
My biggest gripe is it pretty much singlehandedly destroys the need to hire real spies, and thus IMO the concept is broken on a small server where there are 40 players max at any time.
Quote from: Ebok;229942The odds that you are being scried upon is minimal, even if you are there are number of countermeasures that are free. You can resort to passing notes or using coded speech. You can mix up the information, never reveal a single plan in it's entirety. Getting warding isn't impossible, pitting up requests to buy warding is always available.
Not that scrying is bad, but, for those of us who can't be IG 8 hours a day, and don't have time to code partial messages etc...our options become somewhat limited. As most people don't know they are being scried on, there is basically no way to counteract as with a spy who got caught.
Makes it a little OP in my opinion.
Scrying is far, far easier to block than uber stealthers sitting in a room undetected, 2 foot away in plain sight. If anything, it needs to be made easier to detect PCs who take the mickey by standing right next to classes they know can't possibly make their spot DC even with modifiers. Say, a player tool that detects and deals 1 damage to any PC within a two-meter "grab range" but can only be used once per hour. A representation of taking a wild swing into the gloom when a closed door mysteriously opens or a lever mysteriously gets pulled.
Scrying is a rare trick, with a counter that's relatively easy to acquire (L7 caster or low-level questloot) and I believe causes you to waste the entire spell if blocked. It makes you worried about known Diviners, but not, in general, most mages.
The only comment I have here is, as the player of a diviner one thing I've learned is there's a huge need for old fashioned spies. I've found that's where the majority of the best information comes from, and I don't see that changing.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;229960Scrying is far, far easier to block than uber stealthers sitting in a room undetected, 2 foot away in plain sight. If anything, it needs to be made easier to detect PCs who take the mickey by standing right next to classes they know can't possibly make their spot DC even with modifiers. Say, a player tool that detects and deals 1 damage to any PC within a two-meter "grab range" but can only be used once per hour. A representation of taking a wild swing into the gloom when a closed door mysteriously opens or a lever mysteriously gets pulled.
Scrying is a rare trick, with a counter that's relatively easy to acquire (L7 caster or low-level questloot) and I believe causes you to waste the entire spell if blocked. It makes you worried about known Diviners, but not, in general, most mages.
LOL'd during the whole post.
I used scrying on non-divination focused wizards to great success with no issues. Failing because someone used ward area costs you nothing, using ward area costs you a spell slot or a piece of loot.
I don't think it's a big deal either way, but I do think the DC needs a penalty, or a DC every round or something.
Edit - I also think Clerics should have access to this ability at a reasonable level on EFUA, rather than at level 11.
Just to clarify, the spell has been adjusted inside the last month or so. The DCs are different, as is the chance of the subject detecting the caster. If you try to cast on a subject who's in a warded area you lose the spell, so you waste the spell slot. If the subject makes their will save you also lose the spell.
A check every round for everyone in the area of scrying does seem fair. That's what stealthers have to deal with, without the threat of the guys being spied on turning round and beating you to death.
Hear hear Bosch. A save per round.
I have no dislike for scrying. In fact, I like it a lot. I do think that it offers too much advantage, for too little risk.
I dont know where all of the focus thingys are, but if they are in faction HQ's, lets just eliminate that argument as a factor of risk.
With regards to your post Howl, and how it amuses you. I am personally amused that such pains were taken to "balance" stealth spells for just the same reasons in the not too distant past, but when the same concerns are brought up about scrying, its dismissed as ooc confusion and hate.
Bottom line. Anyone in the area being listened in on should get a save, not just the dope who was chosen for his likely presence and supposed low will save. Also, if the save is made, the one making it should get a glimpse of who did it, and where they are at the time, imo.
YMMV
No offense, but a save a round is absurd. The DC for scrying is nothing like the ranks a stealther has, who can be assured that 90% of the PCs will never see them no matter how long they're there. A save a round would mean the spell would be broken within half a minute in nearly all cases, and render it next to useless.
But said wizard also does not have to be concerned with someone turning red, and immediately wtfpwning them upon detection.
If you want to go on a quest, you'll need a fighter, whether or not your faction/group has one means you'll have to find one.
If you want to go exploring where there are locked doors/traps you need a rogue to help you out, if you are not one.
If you don't want to be spied on you can get a mage to help you, again whether or not you know one or not.
I think it would be far better if this spell only told you the location of someone in a vague sense. Instead of simple allowing you to listen on end with great ease.
If you're going to spy on someone, the most viable options at the moment are: hire a rogue, or hire a diviner.
If you want to listen in on your enemy's plotting as a rogue, you put in the legwork, find out where they meet at, invest in some potions/gear to ensure that you can stay hidden and hope for the best. Even then, it's a crapshoot as to how much information you'll actually get. Sometimes you learn something interesting, sometimes not. And all the while, your targets are rolling spot/listen checks. It's harrowing, really. Any stalker/assassin knows the feeling of dread of seeing the target you're following stop and drink a few potions, wondering: do they see me? Shit, maybe. Better back off.
Eavesdropping diviners cast a spell. DC gets rolled once, and if the target fails, they're golden. The reward is so much higher than the risk.
If diviners are caught, then yeah, they've made an enemy. Tough break, but we know how it goes on EfU. If a rogue is caught listening in, then chances are they are going to get subdued/and or killed outright.
Why make rogues for your spying needs when a diviner can do it so much better, and at such little cost to themselves? They already have it tough enough.
Everyone in the area should get a save, and the scryer should first have to use a tool on someone (which would OOCly signify them taking a lock of hair, or small belonging, or getting permission, etc) before being able to scry said target.
And yes, clerics should also get scrying as a L4/L5 spell.
Quote from: you axed for it;229992And yes, clerics should also get scrying as a L4/L5 spell.
Better yet, a domain that has it in it. For deities like savras/mystra/azuth/thoth. Or a domain that has it as a lvl4/5 spell and leave scrying for clerics without the domain at lvl6
Scrying as it works in PnP. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)
Personally, I find the scrying system on EFU:A to be right up there with the alchemy system in terms of wonderful things about the server. People who are engaging in illicit/secretive activities absolutely should be paranoid that their enemies might be scrying upon them.
Ward Area is a reasonably common counter, and there are some cloaks floating about which cast it. Furthermore, there is a 2-5 ducat counter known as the 'blank scroll'. Used with a writing tablet, it makes a foolproof way to communicate without the mage scrying on you being able to see a darn thing. Other possibilities include going out of range of the mage (taking a trip out to Gull Rocks, for example, to hatch your nefarious plot) and simply not discussing any sensitive information without Ward Area up.
As for dealing with rogues? A potion of clairaudience/clairvoyance is a nearly foolproof ways to spot someone who is hiding near you. So much so that they are actually annoying with how effective they are, despite the short duration.
Long story short, be smart about how you handle your plotting, and you should be fine!
I think scrying is great, personally.
I also find it kind of amusing how much hatred is being thrown around at scriers when off hand, in all my time playing on EFU, I can count maybe 4 or 5 PCs who have ever achieved IC means to be mad awesome with the skill. Or at least those who RP'd being scriers.
PNP is to NWN and by extension EFU.
What WW2 is to nazi's riding dinosaurs.
imho
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4051/dinorider.jpg)
whenever i first see this topic i usually think it's just some necromanced thread of old
oh wait it is
Quote from: LiAlH4;229996Personally, I find the scrying system on EFU:A to be right up there with the alchemy system in terms of wonderful things about the server. People who are engaging in illicit/secretive activities absolutely should be paranoid that their enemies might be scrying upon them.
Ward Area is a reasonably common counter, and there are some cloaks floating about which cast it. Furthermore, there is a 2-5 ducat counter known as the 'blank scroll'. Used with a writing tablet, it makes a foolproof way to communicate without the mage scrying on you being able to see a darn thing. Other possibilities include going out of range of the mage (taking a trip out to Gull Rocks, for example, to hatch your nefarious plot) and simply not discussing any sensitive information without Ward Area up.
As for dealing with rogues? A potion of clairaudience/clairvoyance is a nearly foolproof ways to spot someone who is hiding near you. So much so that they are actually annoying with how effective they are, despite the short duration.
Long story short, be smart about how you handle your plotting, and you should be fine!
I think the OP is more concerned with getting horrifically raped by a wizard lead ganksquad of doom whom scry his location without ever having met him than his messages being intercepted.
Overall, scrying is a good thing. However, the notion of having your evil secret lair auto-discovered unless you happen to have Ward Area available every single time you go there is a little disconcerting for the less-than-lawful types.
Perhaps it could be made so that the individual scried upon is seen and heard, but no one else around them is?
Not sure how feasible that is, but it's a possibility.
It is, I will admit, a bit uneven how a sneaky individual really has to dedicate themselves to sneaking, and then luck out enough to find the individual and hope they aren't in an HQ around NPCs, yet any level 7 wizard can scry in a reasonably effective manner.
Perhaps if scrying isn't weakened, stealth should be at least slightly increased?
I don't see that anything needs changing, TBH. Scrying is, like herbalism/alchemy/other new spells, a wonderful and flavourful addition to the server. I was scryed a LOT when I played team nature so I think I can be unbiased about it even though I am playing a mage now.
Also remember, rogues can stealth and listen for ages, while the scrying spell is relatively short-lived so what info you can gather is fairly limited too.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;229998I think scrying is great, personally.
I also find it kind of amusing how much hatred is being thrown around at scriers when off hand, in all my time playing on EFU, I can count maybe 4 or 5 PCs who have ever achieved IC means to be mad awesome with the skill. Or at least those who RP'd being scriers.
That's because you can't count them and any wizard with an int buff has a huge DC on this in the first place. Besides, this was only put in two months ago and you played maybe one PC in that time, so claiming "in all your time" is just as silly as Egon posting in a mechanical thread.
Scrying has been around for about half a year already, and so far it has only made few to jump the gun at times. There really has not been even a handful of scryers or real diviners around, and I personally feel it's good. I'm fully open to ideas of polishing it if DM's figure good ways to it.
Quote from: you axed for it;229992Everyone in the area should get a save, and the scryer should first have to use a tool on someone (which would OOCly signify them taking a lock of hair, or small belonging, or getting permission, etc) before being able to scry said target.
I was thinking this very thing. There's a lot you could do with this to make scrying more flavourful and PnP-y.
The tool could be used in multiple ways. To start, the tool can be used on a character by the scryer himself, allowing him to be scried with a low dc.
Other options could be used by the scryer or anyone else, like snaffle a piece of clothing or lock of hair. A spot vs pickpocket check could determine whether the char getting tooled has an option to allow or prevent this. Some people will probably think this should be done before they can scry at all, but I wouldn't want a cool spell never used because it's too hard to cast.
The same could go for blood from a volunteer or somebody subdued.
Each item makes the DC harder, and is hours of fun for the scryer and his cronies/minions.
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;230002I think the OP is more concerned with getting horrifically raped by a wizard lead ganksquad of doom whom scry his location without ever having met him than his messages being intercepted.
Which as Howland pointed out, isn't allowed. Scrying is not something that can be preformed on just anyone you see walking down the street, and the DMs are already working on ways to enforce this with scripting (if I understood his post).
I've deleted three posts from this discussion. There are a few others I am wary of. Keep this civil, guys, and adhere to the suggestion guidelines.
There is no doubt to it that scrying has its positive and negative attributes but in no means does this make a rogue useless for information gathering purposes. I've on PCs seen and assisted in both scrying and information gathering, and it's not the monster everyone thinks it is. People rewarded with their own means of scrying tend to be people we can trust and so far they've not proven us wrong.
Perhaps it would be good to explain how the save is calculated? Is it a straight-up Will save? Is it mind affecting? Are there other factors that make it easier to duck? Since you don't see the save, players are taking guesses.
As for scrying foci, they are not that common in the environment and not accessible to just anyone in a DM faction (I know nothing about the current Stygian HQ, but I can't see a bunch of mage-scorners having a Focus for example). When a team I was with thought of using one to locate an NPC (with DM oversight), we had to trek across half the server. For someone without a focus of their own, you need to know exactly when a meeting's going down and be able to rush to a focus along with a bodyguard. If I was playing a really paranoid PC, I'd send a spy or assassin to the most accessible focus too.
@Liah:
Yeah, but those are rare compared to Seeing devices, costly, and a very expensive counter to totally illogical situations like people stealthing *in chairs you wan't to sit in*. I've seen some amazingly nonsensical stealthing situations, where I've been able to direct a Fireball onto a target accurately without being able to see them. The idea was to be able to catch PCs who have given away their location ICly but due to mechanics remain undetectable.
Without dragging this offtopic, the point is it's possible to get stealth so high you need good Detect to have a chance at catching someone, so why should Will saves and Scrying be any different. Serves PCs right for assuming PFX and Clarity negate the need for Will. That said, best to wait and see where things gowith the change to likely lower the DC/block PCs based on unfamiliarity. There's an argument though for more Ward Area loot turning up, or for scrolls to be sold at the more reasonable price of 450 GP by merchants.
Could Ward Area perhaps be changed to make you lose the spell, and have to save versus something irritating like a 2d6 round -1 INT/CHA drain (which would cost you another spell)? it would make scryers more wary and the spell a more offputting counter than "Well I'll just scry someone else".
And it's fine Talir. I admit that I use bizarre concepts like maths, post formatting, referencing and logic, which have no place in a mechanics thread. People should call me out on that shit.
Agreed with just coming out and explaining how saves are calculated. As more wizards die out or retire it will stop becoming IC knowledge anyway.
The will save is calculated like any other spell. How the other stuff works, detection, spellcraft rolls, etc., the players of the wizards don't know that either. We don't see the saves, we don't know what the subject rolled or their modifier, we only know what our DC should be using the normal calculations that every spell uses.
Quote from: BeteNoire;230025That's because you can't count them and any wizard with an int buff has a huge DC on this in the first place. Besides, this was only put in two months ago and you played maybe one PC in that time, so claiming "in all your time" is just as silly as Egon posting in a mechanical thread.
Why I never. In all my time on the EFU forums I've never been personally attacked during a conversation.
The fact is all this simple hostility over people spying is the point of spying. Anything that stops plot-hoarders and drags information to light is a -good thing-. I've seen criminals and more make up thickly veiled conversations full of innuendo and more to get a point across when they were afraid of being scried. It's like worrying someone is wearing a wire.
I think that the massive paranoia that scrying causes should really be kept in character. I'm not quite sure I even understand why anybody would take an ooc stance against the spell, or the usage of it. A majority of those that practice the spell in game do so with decorum and solid rp, and as Howland said there is a means of enforcing this in the pipeline. More flavourful additions to EFU are always a bonus, its nice to see diviners having a real point now, and a presence in the game world.
We all know the measures that need to be taken to avoid scrying, and if you intend on speaking about plot heavy stuff then get to it and defend yourself. It isn't an infallible resource for garnering information from characters, and the level of paranoia that it creates should surely be embraced as a plot altering and driving tool.
Quote from: Random_White_Guy;230095The fact is all this simple hostility over people spying is the point of spying. Anything that stops plot-hoarders and drags information to light is a -good thing-. I've seen criminals and more make up thickly veiled conversations full of innuendo and more to get a point across when they were afraid of being scried. It's like worrying someone is wearing a wire.
Yes, and this also brings up the point that the most dangerous people to a plotter are the people who they're plotting with. My rogue was far more successful as an information broker than my diviner is for this very reason.
An amusing side-note, some of the absolutely most incriminating things my diviner has learned haven't come from scrying, they've come from informants.
I have not read through all of the posts, though I will state my two greatest concerns, coming from personal experience.
- My monster PC crew was being scried upon from p. much day 1, before we had virtually interacted with anyone. Just picking a name and wha-blam, scrying upon him is too powerful and easily abused. Some tagging system comes to mind.
- Quickly determining the location of those few you want to gank and sprinting or teleporting over. Since this happened to us near enough every time we logged on, I know just how sour it gets.
The spell in itself is great, but it could do with some warranties other than the (dare I say it?) conventional ways to counter scrying. Putting a greater cost to scrying wouldn't be a poor idea at all.
Udenbur, how do you know this is the case? My diviner never once scryed on the drow PCs, since she never had direct knowledge of them beyond knowing there were drow about, which is certainly not enough to chose them as a target for the spell.
I agree this is bad form to scry like that, but I'm not so certain it's nearly as common a thing as is represented.
I think a tool to represent getting something from the character would be a fun way of altering the save, like in PnP. Necessary, no, but potentially fun.
I do think that everyone affected by the scry should either have some part in saving against the scry or at least be able to individually determine that someone is scrying on them.
Being able to pick one individual and hear 2, 5, 10 or more without any of the others having a chance to stop/detect the scry seems a little off-balance to me.
All of this assumes that the current system does not already allow for it.
Introduce methods to strike back at scryers if detected, if nothing else, for spellcasters. IE, they can pay a spell slot to dish damage back; something that could potentially wound a mage seriously, using the scrying link as a target.
I'm thinking of HOTU, where Halaster blammed someone who tried to scry on him in backstory... that may help make scrying less positive. But while a save per round may be absurd, a save every % of the duration? A save by everyone in the area?
Why not require the person scrying to own an item that was once in the possession of that individual PC? I know there are tag scripts that prevent twinking in this fashion.
Quote from: Capricious;230133Udenbur, how do you know this is the case? My diviner never once scryed on the drow PCs, since she never had direct knowledge of them beyond knowing there were drow about, which is certainly not enough to chose them as a target for the spell.
I agree this is bad form to scry like that, but I'm not so certain it's nearly as common a thing as is represented.
I wasn't talking about you, Cap. Nor do I mean to offend anyone, it's just to illustrate a point.
Would still like to see some more anti-Scrying ideas/solutions.
Isn't necromacy! But a legitamat concern that scury could use some debuffs, Perhaps the mists could cloud your watching?
There is currently a very easily obtainable item with a single-use ward spell in the module.
Also it's from a low level quest and none magic oriented chars are slightly shafted when dealing with it.
Not really.
Quote from: Lenthis;230993Also it's from a low level quest and none magic oriented chars are slightly shafted when dealing with it.
Non-magic characters are slightly shafted in nearly any situation anyway?