Take out powerful traps on quests expect maybe at the end of a quest on the last chest etc. Its not fun to open a door on a quest and instantly die. The ones in particular i am refering too are strong electric:
20d6 damage with a dc:26 is not fun. 120 damage will kill most pc's outright and in this low level setting is overpowered and very depressing when you die to one.
Dying sucks and I feel for you and I HATE to be that guy but...
Bring a rogue?
I loath traps in all shapes and forms in quests. There are many that can't even be detected or disabled by a rogue. They just seem like a means to slow down or kill characters for failing a die roll. In particular electric traps. I'd be happier dealing with beholders than traps truth be told.
I agree. Almost every trap situation in the game can be dealt with by a fighter with a purple crystal.
This kind of situation, shitty as it is to be killed by it, makes rogues an important part of the team, rather than a moderately useful guy it is fine to ditch in favour of another full plate fighter.
edit: agree with goblinsapper, that is... I'm not aware of any unavoidable damage traps that can't be disarmed, but if they're in there that does seem unnecessarily evil >_>
Incidentally we did have a rogue with us, but you do not expect deadly traps to be placed on doors and you'll find with all quests a rogue is not leading the group forward.
And using that arguement would bring up the question why can't pc rogues use them then?
Quote from: One_With_Nature;227655you'll find with all quests a rogue is not leading the group forward.
Why not?
A trapspringer - leading the party, and scouting out traps and enemies seems like a great idea IMHO. Good RP stuff too.
I know it's not the same as 6 heavy armors running through the entire quest with no talking, rp or heavy breathing, but it's fun too.
I dont know, this whole thing seems a little too.. whats the word... Mechanical?
lol
I can understand the frustration behind what happened. Removing deadly traps isn't a good idea, in my opinion, because it does render trapspringers rather obsolete.
However, having some kind of in-character clue leading up to especially an impassable trap like one on a door might be nice (I.E. the deadly fire trapped door has scorch marks near it, the deadly electric trapped door has a crackling SFX, etc.).
I'm not sure whether that situation you were in had any such IC clues or not, but especially a deadly trap that's isolated from other traps leading up to it ought to have some additional indicator.
Although, I will say, the odds of getting above 100 on a 20d6 roll are pretty slim. You're going to average 70 which, while still very steep, is at least survivable by a high level warrior.
That's the *average*. Which means shall we say 30-40% of the time it's enough to easily fry a mid level warrior class through insulation. Remember, not every frontline PC is a barbarian of the max level capable of doing the quest, and electric traps have both the highest damage AND the widest range of any trap. They can go through all the goons and kill the wizard standing way at the back. Saying "bring a rogue" is silly if there's no rogues to be seen. I'm all for optional areas with locked doors and trapped chests where a rogue (or trap specialist) lets you get MORE out of a quest, but not areas where it's "high disable trap or TPK",
Sure, you can send summons onto every door just in case, but on this particular quest there's now mid to high grade lightning traps all over the place, and I ran into deadly ones on two other quests (in one case I literally ran into one due to bad pathing and got fugued straight through Insulation). For this quest, electrical is flavourful, but it would be better limited to minor ones in more places than the odd WHAM-Dead trap.
The interesting and challenging traps are the ones that make combat more difficult by Slowing you, draining your stats, splitting the party, stripping your invis etc. They're dangerous as they let the enemies mess you up, but they don't blow your head off because you didn't have Class X in your party. It's a bit like having enemies that will only die if you're under Bard Song, or they get punched by a Monk. Stun traps for example are dangerous as they incapacitate a PC, but you can
react to them by healing and supporting the victim. Direct damage that can one-shot most of a party is just frustrating. Heads or tails, live or die.
QuoteI know it's not the same as 6 heavy armors running through the entire quest with no talking, rp or heavy breathing, but it's fun too.
A team inching forward in a paranoid manner because they OOCly know Doom Traps are out there but couldn't get a trapper isn't much fun either.
Something that gives a hint you're about to walk into a potential insta-death trap is definitely a good idea.
Personally not against occasional situations where a team with no trap disabler is forced to retreat. Lord knows there are lots of quests that are nigh impossible without some sturdy melee types.
it's a lot easier to round up melee-types than a good trapper, there's more of them and more classes for it. Also, ubertraps only force you to retreat IF you know it's an ubertrap. Usually it goes something like this:
QuoteWatch Out For The Trap What Trap Oh F*** We Are Dead.
It's better to have bonuses for bringing a specialist PC (more payoff/less healing used from running over irritating traps) than meaning you HAVE to have a particular build (stealth trapper) to do quests unless you want to get fugued. A few quests actually have this, side rooms that you need to break into but give sweet loot if you do. Otherwise it's a big benefit to the sort of smashteams who have their pet rogue/monk/druid/whatever class you need, and a kick to anyone wanting to try higher level quests rather than Spam Trogs.
Traps aren't bad on doors if the doors are locked and pickable though. That gives you a hint it's probably well defended, and slows you down enough that someone will detect the trap while it's being unlocked.
Thing is, I dig rogues. They've got a ton of great skills that are sadly underappreciated because they aren't needed most of the time, and when they are needed all the little rogues are so happy to be asked for help that the smashers and bashers can still carry on disdaining the poor sods.
I get what you're saying, Egon, and extra benefits for bringing rogues is great. My ideal situation would be random situations planted into any quest where you'd have a deadly trap gauntlet to run, with a subtle warning along the lines of a sign that says "Extreme Danger: Deadly Traps Ahead". Make it so that most of the time a crew won't need a rogue, but they know they might.
Quote from: Twelve;227657Why not?
A trapspringer - leading the party, and scouting out traps and enemies seems like a great idea IMHO. Good RP stuff too.
I know it's not the same as 6 heavy armors running through the entire quest with no talking, rp or heavy breathing, but it's fun too.
In the olden days before efu came to be this was how an adventure would go. You would go into the quest area. A rogue would go on ahead, you would wait about 15 minutes for the initial report, he would tell you he disabled two traps and there are 15 orcs in the next room.
You would go in, kill the orcs, then the rogue would go on ahead. The quests themselves were very small, but basically took about 2 hours a pop due to requiring a rogue to scour the entire area for fear of instant death traps.
On occasion you would have to cancel the quest because the rogue accedentally tripped a trap and killed himself, or worse missed one and the entire party died.
I can never recall having much fun waiting in silence for a rogue to report back. Mind you I'm sure it was fun and exciting for the rogue knowing that he could instantly die if he takes a wrong step or an enemy makes a spot/listen check.
What I'm saying is you speak of something you've never experienced and in thoery it sounds fun, but it isn't, it's boring, incredibly boring. Ten times worse than wordlessly smashing through a quest. In fact the only difference is there are a few words traded in order to relay tactical data. Which is hardly what you could call exciting stuff after the 3rd run through the quest.
Honestly, these kinds of traps are rare, and only in a couple quests. If you are really so afraid of them, or don't want to wait on your rogue, the alternative is to go do a different quest.
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;227682In the olden days before efu came to be this was how an adventure would go. You would go into the quest area. A rogue would go on ahead, you would wait about 15 minutes for the initial report, he would tell you he disabled two traps and there are 15 orcs in the next room.
You would go in, kill the orcs, then the rogue would go on ahead. The quests themselves were very small, but basically took about 2 hours a pop due to requiring a rogue to scour the entire area for fear of instant death traps.
On occasion you would have to cancel the quest because the rogue accedentally tripped a trap and killed himself, or worse missed one and the entire party died.
I can never recall having much fun waiting in silence for a rogue to report back. Mind you I'm sure it was fun and exciting for the rogue knowing that he could instantly die if he takes a wrong step or an enemy makes a spot/listen check.
What I'm saying is you speak of something you've never experienced and in thoery it sounds fun, but it isn't, it's boring, incredibly boring. Ten times worse than wordlessly smashing through a quest. In fact the only difference is there are a few words traded in order to relay tactical data. Which is hardly what you could call exciting stuff after the 3rd run through the quest.
That's a pretty grim outlook. I've done that quite a bit as a rogue and as the guy waiting for the rogue, and it depended very much on how efficient the rogue player was about going about his business. In general though, I do agree that i's too long and boring to do a whole quest this way. Imagine the brood temple! >_<
Wouldn't hurt to have small areas where this kind of tactic is necessary though.
Quote from: Capricious;227693Honestly, these kinds of traps are rare, and only in a couple quests. If you are really so afraid of them, or don't want to wait on your rogue, the alternative is to go do a different quest.
Yes I agree just avoid the quest entirely. Waste of a quest area though, considering the majority of folk don't like death and dislike waiting around for a very specific and rarely played class, that if played badly could result in the same death as if they were not present.
There needs to be more quests that require rogues, not less. If that means a couple quests are done less because of it, then so be it. If a quest is not done at all then that quest will be removed or changed, but I hardly think that's the case.
Also, any quest played badly can result in death. If the rogue fails the checks and dies that's part of the game. I don't see why success should be assured simply because a rogue came along on a quest where there's dangerous traps.
Just because some players avoid a quest because they feel it's too risky doesn't mean all players avoid that quest.
I think of traps like monsters. Monsters that can do serious damage if dealt with wrong. It's the same idea as anything else, you prepare for it and they don't cause many problems. You don't and you eat shit.
I say remove all monsters from quests and just add a little button that you push for loot and xp. Thats sure to make things exciting, interesting and fun without any strategy or brain-thinking...using that brain thing hurts.
Powerful traps don't add any more challenge or requirement for skill (by the player) than moderately powerful traps. They just wipe your ass out if you trip them and slow you down if you notice them. They are simply checkpoints. The seriously powerful traps will fugue you right through your preparations if your scout isn't good or a summon rushes, someone gets bumped etc.
On the other hand a spaced out field of irritating but not instantly lethal traps you can't simply disable or run a rat over changes the nature of the battle. You have to pick where you fight, save someone if they get stunned, avoid the cloud of poison if someone DOES trigger one, and generally react to the traps, rather than merely slowing while someone disarms them. It makes a trapper feel like they're a helpful addition, not a required device. They also provide a source of debuff traps for trap users to harvest, whereas you aren't allowed to harvest Deadly and some Strong traps.
Powerful AOE traps are in at least three of the higher level quests, Capricious. They are breeding ;) . Having more won't lead to more rogues, just more trap skills on the inevitable fighter/rogue multiclasses. On the other hand *positive* reasons to play a skilled rogue will make people roll them up if they see it as a ticket to be useful by getting more treasure out of quests and so on. Players cope with negative reasons to take a class along by doing the minimum. Positive reasons to bring an expert means you want to play one to take advantage and enjoy it (see how the interest in bards went up when songbooks gave them interesting situational abilities).
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;227682What I'm saying is you speak of something you've never experienced and in thoery it sounds fun, but it isn't, it's boring, incredibly boring.
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highlighted for emphasis.Now normally, I would go into some long explanation of how you have no idea what, I have or have not experienced, but for sake of keeping this on topic I will say, that while it is boring for the front-liner it is one of the true times a rogue is worth his weight in gold. And I would argue it is no more boring than the poor player of buff mage #154 that is following the tanks invisibly. As explained in other threads the rogue is underpowered and under appreciated. It is these few instances where the rogue is truely in his element. Or so I have read and been told. I have never experienced it myself. /end good natured sarcasim In all fairness however, I am in agreement with more things that take out the buffed tank, sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and stomping real hard to see if there is a trap is a good thing.
Quote from: Capricious;227708There needs to be more quests that require rogues, not less. If that means a couple quests are done less because of it, then so be it. If a quest is not done at all then that quest will be removed or changed, but I hardly think that's the case.
Also, any quest played badly can result in death. If the rogue fails the checks and dies that's part of the game. I don't see why success should be assured simply because a rogue came along on a quest where there's dangerous traps.
Just because some players avoid a quest because they feel it's too risky doesn't mean all players avoid that quest.
More quests that require rogues? Why? There are no quests that require barbarians, sure they're useful, but a fighter or cleric can do thier job just as well. Why do quests specifically need that one particular class? As I recall, aside from some low level stuff for ranger and druid there are very few class specific quests.
Do you mean quests that require disable trap skills? In which case this is easily achieved via multiclass without the need for a gimpy pure rogue. Quests don't need to be adjusted to help rogues, rogues need to be adjusted to help rogues.
What you don't seem to understand is that when things go badly in a fight, there are things you can do, potions you can drink, actions you can take, you have a couple of seconds to act. When a trap is triggered, it comes from nowhere and the effect is instant. Moderate damage traps
that target only the person that tripped them are fine, but aoe heavy damage traps that can one shot at a range are just not fun at all.
Anybody who willfully goes on a quest knowing they could instantly die to something completely out of thier hands without them even seeing it coming is insane.
Quote from: Twelve;227729highlighted for emphasis.
Now normally, I would go into some long explanation of how you have no idea what, I have or have not experienced, but for sake of keeping this on topic I will say, that while it is boring for the front-liner it is one of the true times a rogue is worth his weight in gold. And I would argue it is no more boring than the poor player of buff mage #154 that is following the tanks invisibly.
As explained in other threads the rogue is underpowered and under appreciated. It is these few instances where the rogue is truely in his element.
Or so I have read and been told. I have never experienced it myself.
/end good natured sarcasim
In all fairness however, I am in agreement with more things that take out the buffed tank, sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and stomping real hard to see if there is a trap is a good thing.
Three to seven other people should not need to be bored simply so that a rogue can shine. Looking at your example I can see some fundamental flaws in your understanding of a proper group mechanic.
A proper wizard always has his handsful in a battle, in fact when I play a wizard I find myself busying about the party even more so than when I play a "tank" monitering health and ensuring buffs are maintained, tossing the occasional offensive spell where required.
A proper tank has quite a lot to think about, keeping targets attacking him, destroying priority targets, maintaining essential buffs on dispel via potion use, ensuring his flanking allies can easily access a monster without exposing themselves and above all keeping health above critical damage range of the worst opponent.
I based my evaluation of your experience level on your words alone. If you do indeed have the experience you claim then it does not show in your words. If you find playing a wizard or a fighter dull and brainless then you are most certainly
doing it wrong.Having traps on a quest that instantly kill a target dealing three digit sums does not raise appreciation for rogues in the slightest. Even if these did become prevailent then as egon stated there would simply be more of an abundance of the classic x rogue/6 fighter tank/flanker build.
Quests already take long enough. I'd rather not have a rogue class than be forced to wait for one to explore and disarm all traps before we could run the quest.
I honestly don't see how pure rogues are so gimpy as I keep reading. I've played several and they all were very successful and fun.
But Plum, that's because you are mildly retarded :P
Srsly, some challenges are better meant to be overcome by a certain something in your group.
The norm is to have a lot of warrior types (tanks and slayers), supported by buffers/controllers. But not every situation should conform its challenge rating based solely on that norm.
I mean, what if I decided to make a sorcerorX/rogueX guild (note that they are both X, which means one for one levels) and we tried taking on quests and then someone cried, "OH NOEZ... these quests REQUIRE you to have tanks. My low HP build gets ONE SHOTTED by them zerks! This is horribad quest building. I suggest removing all of the Orcs from Wild Orcs."
We'd laugh them out of the community. Now of course that's a ridiculous example/analogy... but the point is not all challenges are going to conform to fit your group and it's not up to the quest builders to conform them, it's up to the group to conform to the challenges of the quest.
Alright, I can honestly see both sides of this, and I was playing the Rogue in this given event. I was hitting traps, and leading the group in most tunnels, etc. So it was more just a matter of, I went to do this, and he died to that.
The lightening traps are scary, which I think is why they are used in these particular cases. They suck to die to. It's like an instant death trap. Which makes some things ruinous to do without a Rogue, or even with one. I've been killed by lag-spiking through traps Ive already clicked disarm on.
Of course, if they dont kill you, and they arent in a combat spot, then they don't really serve as much of a deterrent. I tend to love traps and being a trapper/trapsmith, and make a habit of it.
Just my thoughts.
Any trap that can hit you harder then Bobo the clown is lame on quests. Imo.
also if fighter types were not expected to trigger the odd trap why would barbarians naturally get uncanny dodge?
oh and as making silly comparisons, the trap in question had a higher dc save the that of an implosion spell from a level 17 cleric with a similar outcome.
Traps are a quintessential element to D&D adventuring, and are likely here to stay my friends.
Just saying.. this is another moronic thread.. like the kd, and Imp expertise banning.. someone just lock this. Traps arnt leaving end of story.
well obviously you haven't read the thread. It wasn't suggested that all traps should be removed but more like deadly traps used in moderation, more tasteful traps used (stun, gas, paralyse, dispel). There has actually been some constuctive inputs to this thread but these sarcastic, -moronic- comments are unhelpful and make you look like an idiot having not read the whole thread.
Erm. The deadly lightning traps on the few quests, usually DO have a warning.
Also, everyone and their mother, who has once done the quest, will remember that there is deadly shit there, and next time he does it, will bring a rogue alongside.
Or avoid the quest. Or trigger the trap with a summon. Yes, they are nasty. They are meant to be nasty. And should remain nasty.
Thread derailed.
Just be careful, troops, or the traps will get you :)
We also reserve full 100% rights to change trap power, location, or type as and when we like.