Yo, I think its time we had a look at this feat.
- Gives +10 stacking AC immediately upon activation
- Can be used when held
- Works vs touch attacks (ranged AND melee)
- Can be activated while walking, thus making closing the distance against ranged opponents a no-brainer
- Makes every duel boring
- Works in conjunction with Taunt, meaning often that over half the AB penalty for using it is negated
- Allows for basically breezy questing (without actually assisting the party very well)
I suggest that IE is either disabled compeltely or the E/IE gets readjusted to +3/+6 AC to make it less of a disgusting feat.
...
TLDR: I got owned in a duel by a guy with Improved Expertise today which reminded me how much of a dirty, wretched feat it really is. :)
Agreed.
Crymeariver
...Really? IE has so many ways to get around it, its hilarious that its being complaied about. New suggest- When you enter IE your move speed should be reduced by 25% of normal 50% for improved.
You also loose -4 dexterity in the process
How about we disable improved expertise, but make it so that expertise works like how it does in D&D (you can add +1 AC for every BAB you have, meaning a level 5 fighter could add 5 AC at the cost of 5 AB, a level 10 fighter could get improved expertise status).
As for just "OMG I lost that should be disabled!" yes, you lost, due to luck. That feat is about luck and whoever rolls the most 20's wins, because he also took a hefty -10 to his AB. You play a cleric, though, simply dispel his buffs, buff yourself up, and go out and kick his ass. Cleric vs unbuffed imp expertiser will always side with the cleric.
I don't see the big deal. It's still pretty easy to beat someone who has improved expertise in one on one combat unless they were already going to win without it.
While I do agree that it's unfortunite that Improved Expertise is used while walking and I do agree that it makes duels boring for those watching, there's alot that's left unsaid by the original poster, possibly by intention or because they haven't actually played a character with Imp. Expertise.
- If you move while improved expertise is activated it deactivates for that round.
- Expertise provides a minus ten to attack while activated.
- Improved expertise cannot be activated while held, but remains active if used before being held.
-Costs two feats and 13 minimum intelligence to use.
My advise is to invest in becoming allies with a wizard or something. Like most other things in NWN improved expertise is another thing that can be countered if prepared for.
+10 ac/-10 ab. Same as +0/-0 IMO.
What? I sometimes wonder if people read or even understand mechanics before debating these things.
This feat is far from overpowered, lol. If you lost, it's not due to the feat being overpowered; it's due to your negligence of not being able to overcome it. Usually the only characters who have IE, also have low will saves. Hold spell anyone? Fear? Hell, Scare affects any level PC on EfU! That seems fairly overpowered for a level 1 spell. I reckon we should ban that aswell? lol.
It can be a very good feat, although one of the server's best PvP'ers once called it a waste of a feat. Then again, there are many very good feats in this game.
So. Meh.
I find most people tell me it's a waste of a feat, actually. Useless even, I've heard. In my biased point of view, I rather like it, though, and would not want it taken out.
Changing it to the D&D version if possible wouldn't be bad, but that would just make it stronger.
Really though, dirty-fighting, improved knockdown, called shot, Raging and potion brewing and wand crafting feats can create the same kind of over-powered or dragged out fight if used correctly and the person is lucky enough.
If anything, improved expertise used correctly is the equivilent of a mages' magic, or another classes' special features but must be gained later as a feat instead of just getting it with a level up for free.
ITT: Mechanics masters
Quote from: Knight Of Pentacles;224828This feat is far from overpowered, lol. If you lost, it's not due to the feat being overpowered; it's due to your negligence of not being able to overcome it. Usually the only characters who have IE, also have low will saves. Hold spell anyone? Fear? Hell, Scare affects any level PC on EfU! That seems fairly overpowered for a level 1 spell. I reckon we should ban that aswell? lol.
Guess what? Even while held, disabled, feared, or many other effects, the feat is still active. Also, as mentioned above, it can be activated while moving before actually entering combat. Your negligence of mechanics is the only issue here.
Well first of all your mad because someone with IE beat you... And ranting about it... There are so many ways to own someone with IE it's not even funny. So saying it should be not allowed when it's obviously very well balanced seems like rage because you lost in pvp..
Disable improved expertise for people wearing armor or using a shield, so people can still take it to play Inigo Montoya ripoffs or whatever.
Disable combat. That will end all balance problems.
This thread should be closed. It reaks of grief and that's all that will result from it. Let the dms discuss it amongst themselves.
Quote from: Seanzie;224836Well first of all your mad because someone with IE beat you... And ranting about it... There are so many ways to own someone with IE it's not even funny. So saying it should be not allowed when it's obviously very well balanced seems like rage because you lost in pvp..
I'm not ranting, I succintly listed the reasons why IE is an unseemly feat and should be removed or changed. There was no 'rage' at all, and the PvP as inferred was merely a prompt to post about a balance concern I (and many DMs, and players who actually know what they're talking about - that's not you BTW) have had for some time now.
I wasn't going to respond to the other uninformed replies in this thread but because you tried so hard to make me look stupid, I did. Resultantly, of course, you now look like a moron.
yourtearsgivemepower
It's a pointless feat, imo, and I for one would be happy to see the tail end of it; and I'm not crying at all.
Quote from: Mailbox Arson;224840I'm not ranting, I succintly listed the reasons why IE is an unseemly feat and should be removed or changed. There was no 'rage' at all, and the PvP as inferred was merely a prompt to post about a balance concern I (and many DMs, and players who actually know what they're talking about - that's not you BTW) have had for some time now.
I wasn't going to respond to the other uninformed replies in this thread but because you tried so hard to make me look stupid, I did. Resultantly, of course, you now look like a moron.
Your the reason why the close posts.
Yourtearsgivemelife
If I see further argumentum ad hominem on this thread then I am going to start banning forum accounts. Please stay on-topic.
In reality, IE is like a on off win switch in most cases, Losing pvp? drop IE and win. Still getting hit with IE on, the games over anyway, the person hitting you is either, better built, or higher level, over before it started.
PVE wise, IE is sticking the middle finger to the spawns. Die in IE on quests, your either unlucky or in need of a better group to quest with.
EFU would be allot more fun without it, but possible too hard for allot of the player base.
IE is pretty silly, but it is a two feat investment and easily countered.
QuoteTLDR: I got owned in a duel by a guy with Improved Expertise today which reminded me how much of a dirty, wretched feat it really is.
Seanzie nailed it. And TBH, you could have walked away and lived. If I remember correctly, you yourself set the FD terms, and had a chance to walk away given to you before the fight!
Your PvP tactics were lacking given the situation and you didn't adjust. Your whole spell set was a one trick pony, and that pony just happened to be cut into pastrami in short order by a character who countered your tactics rather effectively.
It's just like a mage getting the KD and not ever getting off his back before all 40hp are gone. KD is overpower!
Or a mage doing ILS and Icestorm spam, taking out a small group before any can act. Hasted Invis Mages are OP!
Or maybe it's like a rogue popping a trap and rocking the sneaks on you before you even know it, your down. Rogues and high stealth are OP!
I can go on and on.
Edit to add: And I don't think so Craig, it's pretty balanced given the draw backs. -10 to AB, in a hand to hand fight? You are going to be hitting on a 20 only. That means statistically you can beat it, or do any number of other things (which you can discover yourself) to stop that in it's tracks.
I won't go into the mechanics of it here, What you need to do is shift your tactics on the fly--PvP is fluid.
Are you joking?
I've played an IE fighter, it's very situational. It's -10 to your AB. Even if your playing a fullbuffed full ab class, you can only hit spawns on a very high roll. You completly lose your offense.
Drinking potions also drops it, making it useless when getting wailed on unless you can absolute tank the attacks. Even then, crits.
IE is a brilliant feat for holding a spot when surrounded by mobs. It's a tank feat. It completly removes your ability to apply offensivly, though.
It WILL work while held, but only if you apply it before being held. It WILL work while moving, but not free-movement. You have to click an enemy and trust in NWN pathfinding, which is playing russian roulette in your life in a crowded battle.
IMP Exp offers no protection from spells or status effects, you can be taunted in return negating over half the AC boost, requires an int of at least 13, requires 2 feats.
Just because it served it's purpose doesn't mean anything should be done to it. IMP Exp is a hard counter to brute force, thats all. This is 100% rediculous.
The armchair generals who invariably lose all their PvP can spare me the tips.
Anyway, as I mentioned, this isn't a QQ thread at all. I do not mind at all that I was defeated - I took a gamble with an odd spellset (yeah, I could have rocked dispels and holds, but how boring is that?), it didn't pay off, such is life. I'm cool with that, really.
The PvP was only referenced as a joke more than anything. This suggestion of making E/IE to +3/+6 to bring it in line with PnP is an old one and has been a concern shared by DMs themselves. The whole thread is just a 'reminder' that IE is still lame (working through holds, blocking touch attacks entirely, etc) and at least IMO should be disabled until its fixed.
Out of pure curiosity. Let's say IE was somehow deactivated. What would happen to characters that had it? Would they now have a dead feat that they needed to delevel in order to lose and replace?
(I should note, I am not saying this as a protest but rather as a request for information. I do have IE on a currently active character but I don't feel it would destroy her forever to lose it -- I would just be happier if I could at least get something else to replace it.)
Ideally they could just use Expertise, but I'm not positive on the scripting particulars.
There's a number of counters; off the top of my head, using Parry will RAPE anyone using Imp Ex unless they're really good (I've had first hand experiance with that). It's far from overpowered.
If it -is- to be removed, those who have Imp Ex should be allowed to relevel so they don't lose a valuble feat. But seriously, it's not overpowered, I've been flattened quite a few times when using imp ex. It's all about tactics
They may have ac, but they can't hit a stonewall either, unless you have patheticly low ac and foolishly keep letting them hit you while standing around.
It's like that despreate feat where you throw your sword away and grap onto your shield with both hands, just covering behind it. You may be able to swing few desprerate slashes, but it's just luck if it hits anything.
We could fix that it remains, while held, feared, tangled, etc.
ARM CHAIR GENERALS