As most players know, it's possible to have some NPCs custom-design clothing and armor. Now, although this is done for cloth and leathers, the only time anyone does it for armor is when they want Full Plate and can't get it by any other means so they stump up the 4k. The problem is, other armor's just not affordable even as PC flavour gear or faction uniforms.
When I decided out of curiosity to see how much custom halfplate would cost (before my PC got Fullplate) it came out to 1800gp without any enhancements or unusual dyes. To put that into perspective, most quest loot halfplate sells for 3-400, shoploot stuff's around 900, and players sell Full Plate for the region of 2000-2300. Plus of course most drops have fairly sweet skill/save bonuses and the shoploot stuff comes with some handy skill boosts. It's even worse for medium armor, where it's not hard to get +1 ones for a few hundred.
My point here is that if it custom armor was cheaper along with its enhancements, players would buy it and use it. We'd see PCs with a distinctive look, PC-driven faction uniforms, and all sorts of cool stuff. It'd take money out of the PC economy and counter PCs getting hugely rich very fast by offering fancy prestige gear, like for expensive dyes. It would be less useful than quest drops for the same price, thus a vanity or uniform item still. My suggestion is to price the armor so that a basic set costs a bit more than PC prices or most shoploot (but unlike those, has no enhancements), and the enhancements are expensive but reasonable.
For example,
Halfplate:
Base cost for custom with a few dyes: 500
Cost to add something like a +1 save: 600
Cost of a questloot halfplate with +1 fort: Usually 300-350
That's expensive but not crippling. A rich merchant PC could easily cover 500 per guard to outfit his faction, for example.
Chainshirt:
Base cost for custom with a few dyes: 300
Cost to add +1 enhancement: 900
Cost of a +1 chainshirt: around 3-600 I've found
You could even keep the prices high but add a deep discount for Patricians, with the aim of promoting prominent Dominion PCs founding a House or organisation that is really visible. So Joe Powerquester might not want to pay 4k for Patricianship on top of 500-1000 for some 7AC armor, but for the leader of a PC faction that desires uniforms, it's kind of a big deal.
I highly agree, and and would go even further and suggest that they be made equal in price to loot equivelents for custom designed armors. In reality (as far as from what I can see from myself and other characters IC) most of these merchants that are NPCs would be bankrupt from the prices they sell things at, or at least on the teeter of bankruptcy. People rarely ever buy things from the NPC merchants, especially the heavy armors and other overpriced goods.
I know somewhat this is in place to keep the pc economy stimulated, so that all the gold doesnt go in NPC bank accounts, and i agree with that notion, but some level of leniency should be mediated.
So... i highly support this, for only decorative designs. 500 or 600 for half plate sounds good to me, even less, but this might make things too easy in the opinion of others.
Agree with this, anyone who quests hard enough can make four thousand pretty fast, whereas as a uniform device kittingbout a faction costs a load. Pure fighters are rare enough, do lowering the price to acres their advantage of fullplate seems reasonable.
Then again, i totally did not think about dyes and metal stain. Erm... i'd actualy prefer people collecting stains and staining it themselves.
Im sure this could be much more easily aquired by simply searching, maybe DM assistance.
I like the variety and thematics of it all... (being more in line with the theme and the tone) than everyone having identical half plate, etc...
Didnt really think before posting the first time, though if anyone wants to volunteer to do this for the NPC crafters, mwa... i kiss your feet... probably shouldnt be that hard either way.
D_I raises an interesting point on pure Fighters. A set of affordable and strong Pure Fighter Only OOCly restricted fullplate off an NPC could give them a little boost over fighter/X multiclasses in the same way that there's powerful stealth armors out there for pure druids and pure rangers only. It would also not boost Clerics like cheaper FP would.
You're living in a ruined town, that struggles to survive, that can't feed people, can't pay it's troops, and you think people are worried about adventurers dying (oups) their full plate armor?
It's a luxury you're wanting. If you get the money, dye your armor. If you're too poor to do so, tough luck. This is no beauty contest. And gold comes sooo easy if you really have a group...
For what it's worth, i've done custom armors for preludes groups, which i'm fine doing again. But portal rats are just that: rats. ;)
For what it is worth. I'm a fan of the oversized cost of the custom gear. To have armor made for you is expensive, to customize it means the crafter is making only a few of it's kind. Uniforms can be done with color schemes easily enough if you are going that route. On top of the economic stresses, finding and reusing your enemies scarred up armor makes more sense to be widely practiced. If custom armors compete with PC merchants selling loot drops then it's the merchants that lose out. Then you have the unique factor again, most of the players don't have unique armor, which makes the unique and impressive stuff all the more impressive.
So I'm a fan of the current costs. (yes I have paid for them on multiple occasions)
Mundane customized armor with a bit of dye should not cost twice as much as good, magical armor on the market.
All this is doing is making a neat but underpowered option be nearly unused. It should be the other way around.
All the way back to tribal paint and tabards, people have set their groups apart by similar markings. This is in my opinion not a matter of luxury but a nice feature which is going unused because it's skewed way out of the normal economy.
Gold rains from the sky, 4000 is cheap and you can add +1 will to it for 1500gp if that function isn't still broken. ( I have reported it once or twice )
Maybe if you patricians went out with your banners and did all the no DM required activities set in place like, protecting the farmland, lumbermill, mine whatever. You may get some merchants inclined to help you out down the road. Since you have made their merchandise less expensive to produce.
Save the world, get benefits.
There's a vendor who sells dye in the marketplace. You can dye an armor anything you want for around 150 gold, with the exception of plot items. Instead of buying customized armor, and then dying it, why not just use dyes on what you have?
I don't mind helping prominent, visual and proactive PC groups with uniforms if said group was moving towards it and want it. If you believe this is you or could be you, just have a talk with me. We are not going to base the shop loot / customized armour on what the PC merchants set for their trades.
The reason why dying armour into specific colours instead of making customized armour is, precisely put, due to the expenses incurred and that you'll often find better throughout the quests; and since some are more worried about stats than looks they take the scavenged goods. When buying customed equipment, you trade stats for looks and is another way to show off your PC.
Gold rains from the sky? I've yet to have a PC earn enough gold to make a difference. My first fighter on EFUA only got fullplate because someone died. My second fighter had plate handed to him at level 3, again, because someone died. In comparison, in EFU, gold was everywhere. While I don't think custom loot for PC factions should just be handed out, I would hardly say that a group of say 6 PC's could find themselves looking like the marines inside a week.
Well, the selection is fairly limited. Though Old Port has quite a variety of tasteful dyes.
Gold is very accessible, you just need to look in the right places. Which I wont divulge under any circumstances.
If you have a cool/successful PC faction you'll have no problem buying dyes so you can all have matching uniforms.
If you want to look truly unique, drop those $$$ on the custom armor. I see no reason to make custom armor cheap.
Why all the nay-saying here?
It's a feature the DMs put in to be used, and it's not seeing its full potential. I've yet to encounter a recognizable PC group uniform since like the Underdark.
This is not about "individuals should have to pay lots extra to look cooler than me in my snazzy gear." It's about making player factions cooler.
On a related note, I remember when full plate was rare, and prices asked now are far less. The market has likely changed since the prices were last set. They need to be lowered even if for no other reason than that they are outdated.
I have some ideas to improve that system. I've been exploring a lot the scripts to change armor, dye colors, etc. It's a great mess and bioware command script are really shitty, but, once it's done, I think I'll be able to make most people happy.
That would be awesome. Since the colours aren't in any sensible order on the pallette, it can be tiresome to click through, even just for starting gear.
QuoteWhy all the nay-saying here?
It's a feature the DMs put in to be used, and it's not seeing its full potential.
Exactly. The leathers and cloth tailors are occasionally used, but never the armor one, except for Full Plate. Why have a scripted system to deal with custom armor, when for the occasional cripplingly expensive deal (like Guildhouse upgrades or faction HQs buyouts), a DM possession would work fine.
I am
not saying custom armor should be cheap, I am suggesting it should be double the price or more of how much most players would pay for equivalent gear, so it's only a good decision for PCs that really need a Look. I'd say you should have to pay extra for custom gear, but not so much that it prices it out as an option. If you're running a faction, armor is very cool, but it's your lowest priority behind a HQ and supplies.
Halfplate is cheap as chips and there's loads going round, but the custom halfplate is
five times the price of PC merchant ones and double that of a shoploot one with bonuses. The markup on Halfplate is in fact only 500 or so less than the markup for Fullplate. You may as well save the money and wait to buy Fullplate since you'l never get the money back reselling your custom set. Thus nobody ever orders custom Halfplate.
I've only ever seen custom FP (due to rarity of normal FP) and chainshirts (Because they're close to affordable for a rich PC). They are, not incidentally the two armors you can get the highest AC out of. Since a chainshirt build can get better AC than a halfplate one, I don't see cheaper custom halfplate as imbalanced. The idea is to allow PCs to buy
overpriced, underpowered gear to order, at a cost that doesn't make the player think "screw RP, I'll wear the Gnolls plate like everyone else". For example a guy who really does scavenge armor parts and wants his plate/chains to reflect that.
QuoteYou're living in a ruined town, that struggles to survive, that can't feed people, can't pay it's troops, and you think people are worried about adventurers dying (oups) their full plate armor?
Yes, even more so than before. Because since Grey can't get military contracts with the Colony being broke, it makes great business sense for him to start offering services to the only people who've actually got cash, at a price they can afford. Let's be honest, only innkeepers, Gwah'oul, the Arrowhead and Blazon could actually stay in business considering how little other merchants sell.
QuoteGold rains from the sky, 4000 is cheap and you can add +1 will to it for 1500gp.
Maybe if you powerquest all the high-paying quests and sell everything. Claim what you like, but the evidence is that most heavy armor PCs outside of factions do not have Fullplate, and I can't believe they're all wearing stuff so powerful they don't care to upgrade. I don't consider fullplate to be badly priced TBH. It costs about double what a PC sells it for if you want to have yours made, which is a better deal than for any other custom armor. Plus, it's the only reliable source of Fullplate, so you're paying for the rarity value.
QuoteInstead of buying customized armor, and then dying it, why not just use dyes on what you have?
You'd be amazed how much stuff isn't dyable, ask me, LiS, or any of the other EfU Fashion Victims. I tend to use the 3gp cloth dye to test just in case.
Gold rains from the sky? What?
Then why can't I make any?
QuoteYou'd be amazed how much stuff isn't dyable, ask me, LiS, or any of the other EfU Fashion Victims. I tend to use the 3gp cloth dye to test just in case.
I've found that many armors are made of a composition of clothes leather and metal, as far as dying goes. Haven't had trouble tbh, what in particular have you found undyable?
Thanks man.
What I mean, is a lot of stuff is marked Plot, which prevents it from being dyed. This is usually done to prevent us selling loot to shops, but generally marking it Stolen works better as that doesn't prevent you dyeing things.
Edit: Like for instance the Nightriser helm my guy wears. Don't want to drag the thread offtopic :P
Ahh, i see, for instance like what?, out of pure curiosity.
PC merchant prices are broken, that's why you all think its too expensive what the NPCs ask. Actually all PC merchants should ask more, but then everyone would just quest until they get what they want (which is often enough the case anyway)!
I agree with more and easier (not cheaper) options for customized armor though!
It should be pointed out that the UD factions that had their own look (I'm thinking of the Sentinels) achieved it by hoarding certain drops from quests and then dyeing them all to match. There is enough of a variety of quest loot armor on the surface to make this a feasible option for a PC faction.
I have to ask with all the opposition to this, what the server would lose from PCs having access to expensive but not stupidly so, basic armour with no bonuses. A feature that isn't used may as well not exist. Your suggestion's valid, PlayaCharacter and I've done it myself with player factions (The Cult of Jergal and the Cult of Ghaunadaur both spammed appropriate quests). However it requires OOCly picking quests to spam, and powerquesting. On the other hand, commissioning custom armour is a totally IC decision. Numerous PC factions have done similar using tailored suits or leathers, but it's not been feasible for armours.
Back in my early days of EfU:A when I led the Blood Legion faction, eventually we earned uniforms.
It -can- happen, just as Talir said, prove your worth the effort and rock EfU.
As for doing it through the NPC merchant... meh. If you really want your business to boom, go the cheap way... don't spend 4000 GP per guard. >_>
A big feature of EfU is all the effort DMs have put in over the years to let you accomplish stuff without their oversight. Custom clothes/leathers armor is one such feature, but it's shamefully underused. Yes, if a DM likes your faction and wants to help, you can get whatever they like. That's irrelevant to the fact an automated system is never used though, which is sad as automated sytems are a great way to show to a DM you are making an effort to coordinate a faction. Also DTW, you were running a faction linked to a church with presence on Ymph and an NPC who granted you some support.
QuoteIf you really want your business to boom, go the cheap way... don't spend 4000 GP per guard.
Suppose I'll restate this:
I am NOT talking about fullplate, fullplate prices are reasonable if extremely expensive. Please, read the suggestion before telling me why it's a bad idea.
What I am suggesting is that you be able to spend 5-600 per guard to equip them with custom HALFplate, or a custom chainshirt or chainmail.
A much more time consuming way is to go out and collect suits of half plate from quests. Give everyone an identical suit, dye them to your factions colors, and there you have it - uniforms.
5-600 per suit of half plate is reasonable, in my opinion. Dwarven half-plate with bonuses costs near 1000 from Tobar, 600 for no bonuses but a custom look seems fair.
Something else that could be neat is being able to buy in "bulk".
(Unsure of the scripting, but) Say you bought three armors, you could get a discount similar to the ones Egon was talking about.
Maybe it could be a 500 GP service fee (or another fancy name), and a suitable price per suit depending on the level of armor provided.
Why not just allow the armor-crafter to modify the apreance of the armor you already have for a steep price?
You pay 1K gold, remove the plot flag, add a "stolen" flag, modify and dye it to your taste? 1K per uniform is expensive, but not too much.
Full-plate uniforms would still cost 4.5K, but if you find a fullplate elsewhere, or if you buy it from a PC it's only +1K more worth.
Quote from: Mort;224792I have some ideas to improve that system. I've been exploring a lot the scripts to change armor, dye colors, etc. It's a great mess and bioware command script are really shitty, but, once it's done, I think I'll be able to make most people happy.
Let's just chill and see what this brings about. No point in discussing something that's going to soon be changed, unless you have ideas to use regarding this... in which case, open up some suggestion threads already. :)
i lvoe how some of you try to be useful my making some suggesiton. i wishi was that cool.