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I'm just going to lay out my perspective, the feelings I've seen in other nature players in IRC and see how I do with this.
 
Playing a Nature character is hard. But it's no harder than playing any other character in any other part of the server. Hell, it's easier than a lot of the characters I've played. It's not playing a wanted man, it's not playing a monster PC, and there's no limit on who I can interact with as a Stargazer. So I'm not whining about wandering around in the wilds alone. That's cool.
 
The issue I have with playing a PC part of Team Nature is what seems to be a lack of DM interest. On a whole, this isn't me bawwing because NO DM WANTS TO HALP ME. I'm talking about the Circle of Stewards, Stargazers, wildwalkers, urban rangers, psychotic hunters, what have you.
 
Now I could be wrong. Maybe Team Nature is just not rocking out collectively as of late, and undeserving of any kind of attention. I know there have been nature characters who have rocked out in the past. But the ones I have in mind are those who have gotten themselves involved in matters of the Ziggurat, PvP or otherwise, which is funny to me.
 
Once I was approved for my Stargazer, I thought, ok, what plots in progress are there to get involved in? I won't list them here for FOIG reasons, but there are nowhere near as many of the plots one could involved in by hanging in the Ziggurat/Docks/Conclave. But that's not a big deal, because personal goals are a PC's bread and butter on here. That's how it should be- not waiting around with your thumb up your ass to get pointed in a direction by a DM, but pursuing your plots with your own character, as well as your allies.
 
And that's fine. But at some point, maybe when you feel you hit a wall, maybe when it's natural for it, you might want a bit of aid from a DM. Setting up a trip to somewhere, to claim or fight something, what have you. And that's where Nature PCs seem to be fresh outta luck. I just don't seem to see a ton of focus on nature, or the wild, save for plots which seem to place nature characters in a secondary role, running interference. 'Conclave wizard wants a sabretooth pelt for planar experiments. PCs from Zig, go get it. Nature characters, give them a little PvP along the way.' If you put yourself in a role where you're playing hardcore nature guardian, gank everyone who steps out of the gates, you might stir some shit up. I know, I've done it.
 
 
More DM involvement, or more response from the DM's to nature characters as a whole (Gazers, Stewards, Circle, what have you) would make playing a nature character a bit easier. A little encouragement would go a long way; mostly because it helps to know that you're making some form of progress towards your character's goals, however slowly. But if you've hit level eight, nine, ten and above, and have nothing to show for it aside from a full inventory and the occasional piece of DM-loot, why keep playing?
 
Goals keep you going, DM-given or otherwise. If there's no way to see some form of resolution, you lose that drive.

I play a Druid alternately when I don't have a main and am waiting for an app for a stargazer. Nature is a great group to get involved with.

The best advice I can give is pursue tangible IC goals. PCs can do an extraordinary amount of things on EFU with limited to no DM aid. Intrigue, politics, infiltration, combat, theft, claim land, fight over land, build, destroy, expand, refine.

It can be indeed disheartening at times but if you step to the left and re-organize your plots and pursuits it can really impact a lot of things.

They are insular by nature and tend not to interact with many characters. Claim something. Do something. Make a stand. Be consistent. ATTRACT attention.

While some nature concepts are about NOT ATTRACTING attention, there are certain immutable enemies that you MUST make a stand against, such as diabolists, infernalists, necromancers, and those that delve into the aberrant. Fight them. Win. Be awesome. Gather cohorts. Scheme.  

When other players are talking about YOU. The DMs will also take notice.

I took a look in the Stargazer forum, and while it's true that a lot of nature'esque plots are reactive in nature I'm not sure I see much that requires some kind of NPC response. Feel free to bump threads if you need a DM to post something, as well bothering DMs in IRC. With as many forums as we have, it's very easy to miss things.

I will agree that it would be better if we had more energetic DMs who'd be willing to constantly, as opposed to occasionally, run non-reactive plots for PCs that dwell in the wilds. However, I'd say the same is true about every other group.

I want to start by saying I'm not whining, or bitching, but just stating what has been discussed and said by other nature players.

I have a 'nature' character that well, is no longer nature. (If that makes any sense)  But, when I was with Nature I can say without doubt that the vast majority of us felt we were totally on our own.  


Letters were written to the Elders, that would have taken 5 minutes of someones time to respond to *(even a received would have been nice) on issues that as Stewards or Gazers needed an Elders input, we got nothing.  

LARGE groups of not only Nature PC's were lead through-out the land on various tasks, not only once but I can think of three that My PC lead, and at least one other that was lead by someone else. Now on one of the trips we did get some DM attention.  So I would like to say thank you to that DM for that.

These are the little things that can make or break a "Faction" concept.  I'm not looking for the BIG moves, not looking for direction per-say, not looking for 'loot', but just on occasion to know that someone is occasionally paying a little attention to the 15+ Nature characters that were out there at one time.

I am sure there are certain people who would love to focus attention to run plots/support for only nature PCs as a DM.

If there's a post that urgently needs a response, please do not hesitate to get myself or another DM in IRC to respond.

We had a very active nature DM for a while, FleetingHeart. But he's gone - so it goes! And unfortunately he left some plot threads left unresolved, and I know for a while players were trying to get other DMs to handle his old plots. But it's a hundred times more challenging to get a DM to work on another DM's stuff, a lot of the time... so it goes.

I've got no interest in beating the subject into the ground, but it occured to me after a kind of group venting of frustrations and such that: maybe DMs don't know? And if they don't, wouldn't it be a good idea to say something, rather than bitch in private? DM-light goals are great, and if that's what has to be done with nature characters then that's all there is to do, really.
 
And while I'm not saying that nature PC's need to have MOAR PLOTZ for nature only or something like that, I do think that there have been plenty of events for stewards/gazers/etc. to be involved in that simply can't happen because of where they happen. Or how they happen.
 
There was a little plot a few weeks back about an auction, with a final item of note: a pregnant white stag to be sacrificed to whatever cause the owner chose. This seemed like a PERFECT thing for any nature PC to get involved in: protection of wildlife, upholding the balance, or even taking the stag for their own goals. I know for a fact I would've risked life and limb to come if I knew about...but the auction was in Old Port, advertised exclusively in the city, and so my PC would never hear about it. I don't believe any nature PC showed up to take action, and I think a Steward NPC was spawned to try and protect the stag. That's cool, but it seems like a shame, because most Steward PC's would have jumped at the opportunity.
 
They just didn't get it. That's just one example, and I haven't been playing my Gazer for so long. I'm sure others have more.
 
Yes, nature characters are very insular. Conflict isn't something I'm afraid of, but creating conflict gets old when it amounts to hanging 2-3 screens away from the main gates waiting for a hated foe to leave the Ziggurat. I might as well be a great lizard at that point.
 
DMs have lives that do not include DMing full-time at no pay. It'd be a terrible shame for any DM to stop DMing because of the actions of a player/players. Consequently, it would be terrible for a player to retire a PC because DM attention is required.

I think team nature has had plenty of DM interaction at least on the Gazer end of things, since I don't have steward access. I can say though that there seems to have been plenty of DM loving for team nature based not only on personal interactions (and those are few given my limited in game time) but also from second hand reports.  I concur that the letters to the elders seem a bit sparse in answers, but overall Howland has done a great job especially in representing the elders and trying to push some things forward.

Maybe a lot of it is just timing, but my gazer PC has had as much or more DM interaction than pretty much any PC I have played in a long while.  Around Christmas, there was little to no PC gazer action as far as a group was concerned, and the DM activity faded with it, but lately, as there is more working as a group, I see things picking up again.

Overall, I think things have been pretty sweet lately for team nature.

I think nature pc's deserve a bloody medal just for making it past level 4.

Having a group makes a huge difference.

This is just general advice, and I'm not 'targeting' anyone so keep it cool:

Reactive PCs in general are boring to DM for. It doesn't matter if you're a Nature PC or not.

So the best way to solicit DM attention as a Nature PC is of course to have a proactive concept. For example, if there's an elven druid messaging me in the DM channel that he's going around planting trees and would like some supervision... I'd rather have spent my time following a Talonite druid who believed the city to represent too great a threat to the Balance, and wanted to poison the Dominion water supply to incite a war that would ultimately destroy it. Or someone like Vlad, or Orgeribbit. These sort of PCs are proactive in the pursuit of their goals and generally bring a satisfying amount of conflict to the server (not just PvP, but generally a tense atmosphere and quite a bit of intrigue).

You also have to remember that more than anything getting DM attention is just luck. Some of (IMO) my best PCs got basically zero DM attention, and others who I consider much less awesome got more. The moral of the story here, in both examples, is that the best thing to do is have a concept that is so exciting that a) it will attract a DM hopefully and b) its exciting/dynamic enough to enjoy even if you can't seem to get any DM love.

Seeing 15 players that are strangely and tenuously allied because of a history of questing and a similar play schedule walking around the wilds killing fauna does not make me want to run a DM quest. That stuff's boring to me. I do not see myself ever rewarding it. Player run events should be fun on their own. Not some 'duty' that you do in the tenuous hope of getting DM attention.

Seeing five to six low level PCs with an agenda and concept that they both advertise and one which puts them in open conflict with other groups on the server -- sticking together, navigating the wilds, taking their time, RPing the difficulties, and generally enjoying themselves -- will, when I see it, totally get rewarded.

Play concepts that you enjoy. Do things that you enjoy. Enjoy DM attention as a treat, not the main course.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy;224633... Intrigue, politics, infiltration, combat, theft, claim land, fight over land, build, destroy, expand, refine.

The last four things will almost always require DMs. The first several don't of course, and they're great goals for an RP game like EfUA.

Anyways!

I've never played a full nature character, and likely never will because it's just not part of the server that I think would interest me. That being said, there's a lot that nature characters can do.

The Order screwed up your nice Tangled Woods habitat, called it their own. Reclaim it!

The Armada is in control of a starving colony. You guys manipulate NATURE. Take their farmland, bring in nasty natural critters to defend it, demand something from them for it to be left alone. If they play nice (doubtful) then you can offer to use your talents to regrow the devastated land. If they do, then maybe a DM can run a Stygian-Nature quest for rare super-wheat seeds (shit, I don't know...) as a reward for being bold and getting your way.

I'm not sure what the Docks or Stargazers have done to nature folks, but I'm sure there's something.

Quote from: Caddies;225491Reactive PCs in general are boring to DM for. It doesn't matter if you're a Nature PC or not.

So the best way to solicit DM attention as a Nature PC is of course to have a proactive concept. For example, if there's an elven druid messaging me in the DM channel that he's going around planting trees and would like some supervision... I'd rather have spent my time following a Talonite druid who believed the city to represent too great a threat to the Balance, and wanted to poison the Dominion water supply to incite a war that would ultimately destroy it. Or someone like Vlad, or Orgeribbit. These sort of PCs are proactive in the pursuit of their goals and generally bring a satisfying amount of conflict to the server (not just PvP, but generally a tense atmosphere and quite a bit of intrigue).

I totally understand this attitude, there is definitely nothing wrong with it and a DM has GOT to do what is near and dear to his heart, or else he'll burn out doing all the stuff that makes it feel like 'work'.

That said, I think this is definitely a place where EfU, as a community, has a weakness.  We get so into these sort of PvP dynamics and I think we lose sight of the fact that some people just aren't going to be as good at this sort of behavior that the DMs are really looking for.  Not everyone can NAGARAGE!

Seriously though, what does end up happening is that these people are feeling alienated and left out.  They can't 'hang' and as evidenced by the statements in this thread, the DMs see them as boring, when to a lot of the players, these individuals add depth to our server by playing PCs that may not be as dynamic, but certainly support our playerbase as a whole and also add a bit to immersion by adding the whole, "Not every important person is ZOMGWTFPWNROFLWINNAR".

I think we do EfU a disservice if the prevailing attitude causes these folks to leave, and I have personally seen a few walk away, individuals who are VERY creative in their character concepts but with no real ability to 'Win'.

This is on a larger scale than 'Team Nature' in some ways, but I see it a lot with this group.  'We' tend to get a lot of attention when one of the so called 'Big Dogs' makes a Nature Concept and then we tend to fizzle once they get PKed (which accounts for some people's experiences, as with anything ymmv).

QuoteYou also have to remember that more than anything getting DM attention is just luck.

QFT

QuoteWe get so into these sort of PvP dynamics and I think we lose sight of the fact that some people just aren't going to be as good at this sort of behavior that the DMs are really looking for. Not everyone can NAGARAGE!

Seriously though, what does end up happening is that these people are feeling alienated and left out. They can't 'hang' and as evidenced by the statements in this thread, the DMs see them as boring...

This happens on both sides of the fence (meaning, pvp ability doesn't matter) and some people see little to no interaction / loot / npc possessions / plots. That argument has very little to do with Nature PCs.

Quote from: "JaydeMoon"This is on a larger scale than 'Team Nature' in some ways

OK.  Many ways. *shrug*

First - I just want to make clear that Caddies has retired as a DM, so his advice should be considered as that of an ex-DM, experienced player and not that of an active DM.

Two - It is entirely false to say that the way to get DM attention is to become some kind of PvP champion. It is this frustrating and enduring notion that some players have that the better you are at PvP the more positive DM attention you get. This is just completely wrong, as I'm sure some of our server's best PvPers can attest to.

Playing at the right times, playing enough, having an interesting character, approaching DMs with ideas, having a good OOC attitude, being enthusiastic and appreciative about the server, involving others - these are all much more important things.

Promoting conflict is good too, and PvP even has a place in that, but I think the facts and evidence are pretty clear that there's lot more to things than that.

For example, when I think about the players who I have more recently showered with attention - cmenden and AKMatt for example - both almost always lose PvP but because of some of the reasons mentioned above but when I have time in the client I will often be glad to run stuff involving them.



Now, back on to topic, I do know for a fact in the past that I've made a point to run nature-specific stuff more than I have any other group. Admittedly I haven't been DM'ing much recently, which I hope to rectify soon. But in the meantime, I would encourage some creativity among the nature PCs in terms of coming up with new ways to entertain yourselves rather than expect a DM to drop out of the blue to do it for you. I'd also encourage you to send casual, non-demanding dm messages about patrols you're up to, run little events of your own that are advertised/made aware to DMs, collar DMs on IRC to respond to any forum letters you need responded to, and coordinate with Johannes about opposing some of the anti-nature plots he happens to be running nowadays.

Indeed, I made sure to use past tense so people didn't get confused!

Also the last thing I wanted to infer was that you have to be PvP focused to garner DM attention (in fact I mentioned other forms of conflict such as intrigue being important). In fact, I would posit that pretty much every DM vastly prefers interesting schemers and plotters over boring crushbots.

The emphasis was on dynamism more than PvP.

Yes, I was more responding to -

QuoteWe get so into these sort of PvP dynamics and I think we lose sight of the fact that some people just aren't going to be as good at this sort of behavior that the DMs are really looking for. Not everyone can NAGARAGE!

Seriously though, what does end up happening is that these people are feeling alienated and left out. They can't 'hang' and as evidenced by the statements in this thread, the DMs see them as boring, when to a lot of the players, these individuals add depth to our server by playing PCs that may not be as dynamic, but certainly support our playerbase as a whole and also add a bit to immersion by adding the whole, "Not every important person is ZOMGWTFPWNROFLWINNAR".

- which I just completely disagree with!


It probably is worth noting though that if you're going to play a Stargazer, you probably should be prepared to on average face more PvP than most other concepts.

I was also responding to that. :o

Thank you for all the attention lately, guys.

It is truly, truly amazing!

Throwing a different perspective out there - I prefer nature PCs.  
 
Truthfully, I feel trapped when I play a ziggurat / docks based PC.  You can only go a few screens unless you go with a competent group, or butt-loads of invis potions.  Even then Invisibility is easier to defeat than stealth.
 
The bad part was I started with a nature PC and most my PCs (minus my current) have been nature based PCs.  That does result in a feeling of being on the DMs bad-boy list or ignored.  
 
But I think the pros of not feeling confined or trapped far outweigh the cons.  It's truely amazing what you see out in the wilds when prowling around in stealth.  Though its hard to interact with other PCs when you rarely see someone and then when you do they zoomspast you running to someplace safe.  
 
Anyhow my $.02 from my viewpoint anyhow.

I am in the same boat at Twelve. I love nature characters and the wilds is simply fantastic. I struggle to play a Colony based PC, and usually end up playing nature in the end.

I believe that if you are going to start playing a nature concept it is wise not only have far advancing, and conflict based goals but also to have 'something to do' goals than can be achieved without the aid of a DM.
This can often be research in to specific animals, exploration of dangerous areas, growing a decent array of plants, herbalism research etc. and although they will likely not get a DM's attention, they do give you a purpose to play.

I think that in the wilds, purpose can sometimes be a driving force to stop a player retiring a character and allows for the times when you might struggle to find other players and are slightly isolated.
Being on your own is something that I know some players struggle with, I have been asked before how to cope with this and I suppose I can only really offer the above advice. Do something!
Emoting to yourself can make things seem a little more lively :P

Although it does get very lonely in the wilds sometimes, nature PCs are my favorite, and I find myself taking a sanity break once in a while on my druid still. It helps make it less empty if you develop nature buddies and go on patrol and such. We used to do that a lot with Kashyapi, a small group of regulars always out on patrol searching for signs of H'bala and any other trouble we could get into hehe.