The title say it all. I really miss the random DM spice on quests, and I know ALOT of other players also miss this. I know there have been players in the past who did not like this, but I belive it is a minority of the playerbase.
DM´s please think about this, this is what got me hooked on EFU in the first place waaaay back, and it saddens me that it rarely happens any more. If you get discuraged by the few players who dislike it, just remember. Most of us love it.
Keep rocking.
I think it's more to do with if a DM feels like it and if there is a DM around than any major decision, in fact I had DM spice a couple of days back. Probably more chance of when you are questing than any design.
[11:06] <@NuclearCatastrophe> DM spice will naturally make a quest harder, and you have to make it look like you're trying to kill people (while not actually wanting anyone to actually bite the dust).
[11:06] yeah
[11:06] <@NuclearCatastrophe> So.
[11:06] <@NuclearCatastrophe> If people die, that's a negative experience for all involved.
[11:06] only problem i think with adding a bit of spice into a quest is it might end up being hard to balance. essentially the DM might cause whole party to get slaughtered without that intention
[11:07] disco is just saying there isn't any anymore
[11:07] <@NuclearCatastrophe> I'm getting to that.
[11:07] <@NuclearCatastrophe> It's not just a negative experience for the player, it's a negative experience for the DM.
[11:07] <@NuclearCatastrophe> So, they are discouraged from spicing a quest in the future.
[11:08] *** Peons quit (Connection reset by peer)
[11:09] <@NuclearCatastrophe> Though, if people are doing the same quest daily, I kind of believe that a DM -should- step in and alter things.
[11:09] As someone who has DM'd on other servers
[11:09] theres nothing wrong with dm spicing a quest and everyone dieing
[11:09] I can confirm
[11:09] it is hard NOT to kill pc's
[11:09] <@NuclearCatastrophe> To prevent casual metagaming.
[11:09] NC
[11:09] Please post on the forum thread :)
[11:10] I constantly die all the time without a DM spicing the quest up :P
[11:10] <@NuclearCatastrophe> Eh, I've already written my thoughts here, I'm extremely lazy.
[11:10] I SHALL COPY PASTE.
I can personally accept taking the odd character death in exchange for DM spice, if the risk for that is the reason it's so rare. I think most players will agree that the fun will trump the danger.
This is a hard one to answer. For myself I do spice scripted quest sometimes (particularly if I notice new players), but generally I have better things to do.
In terms of hard-spice, generally there are problems with players attitudes so it's often avoided by DMs.
It can be dicey, having been on both sides. It can really depend on the PCs you are playing with as Howland stated, and their attitudes about the game / story. Usually I gave ample hints that something was going to be changed and harder (ie different). Some players love that sort of interaction, I'm one of them. Some players actually don't like it, and really enjoy the routine quests and just PC interactions and RP that way. Both are fine, but it does sometimes take a discerning DM to understand which players will have fun with spice, and which may resent it.
The saddest thing though is checking a PCs inventory prior to adventures, and then watching that PC die while hoarding potions or other consumables that could have changed the tide of battle, or save the PC. I've seen battles escalate and pots of blur, shadow shield, etc go unused. Also sad is death to AoOs, it still breaks my heart to see it happen.
DM spice on quests can cause death, but to me thats the point. It's what makes it exciting. We have some amazing dm's who really push players in terms of surviving. Yes you may do, yes you may rage, but in the end if you pull through its an epic tale, or even if you die you went out in an amazing experiance.
The server shouldnt seem cushy, it should be a harsh experiance, and harsher for those who know what to expect.
I've had some amazing character changing events from dm spice as well as deaths that resulted in me giving a character the shelf. I would not change any of it because the memories i had of the experiance was awesome.
DM spice should be "the spice of life".. both literally and figuratively. The few times I've run into spice, it has been amazingly unexpected. It tests not only your abilities to think quick and change tactics if needed, but that of your parties.
I can understand the hesitancy of the DM's though. First there is the question of "which group to spice?" If you spice one group, inevitability another group will feel slighted. Then you have "Will the players handle the death of their PC's if it happens?" I would hope all of us here could handle this. Yes, dieing stinks but let's face it, we all will have to find a way to end our 'story'.
So I say, spice it up... It's the only way to live.
I don't think I've ever seen a player resent spice.
Then again, I've had some good banter with folks in tells saying how utterly fucked we'll be if wiggyboy spiced us
Perhaps because EfU players tend to be very strong, on average, with mechanics, there is a very fragile line of efficiency that is towed.
You can see a small group of players do incredible things against overwhelming amounts of monsters (orcs, for example), and then for no apparent reason they are routed. Perhaps a crucial buff wears off, perhaps formation breaks and someone's Imp. Exp. is broken, or perhaps the monsters land a few lucky critical hits.
As a player, I have difficulty a lot figuring out just when things are "difficult", for a lot of times they go from easy to impossible in but a few crucial seconds. I imagine calibrating spawns accordingly would be equally challenging.
It's very easy, actually - for me at least. But I've been DM'ing for years.
Just have other things to do, really.
And let's face it, a lot of players are pretty immature with a tenuous grasp of truth and a proclivity for taking things that happen in a game harshly.
Gimme SPICE!
Quotea lot of players are pretty immature with a tenuous grasp of truth
Wait just one minute, I may be immature but I know perfectly well that I am not -completely- enmeshed in a fantasy life.
So what if I dress in medieval attire in the workplace and have my co-workers call me "Beggar" and my family "m'lord". I know who I am, really. And I can give this up anytime I want. Seriously.
Quote from: The Beggar;212977The saddest thing though is checking a PCs inventory prior to adventures, and then watching that PC die while hoarding potions or other consumables that could have changed the tide of battle, or save the PC. I've seen battles escalate and pots of blur, shadow shield, etc go unused. Also sad is death to AoOs, it still breaks my heart to see it happen.
About hoarding consumables, a great danger there is simply not keeping properly track of them. I once died because I had forgotten that my cloak could cast Blur. >.< Putting emergency lifesavers in a quickslot row reserved for this is your friend, here.
I am completely fine with spicing.. I have died more times on my character on my own without spice in more dumb and retarted ways then i can count.. I have also died on a dm spiced quest. Dying sucks but it's easy to get the xp back. I find it fun and interesting when things get hard. Even if they get hard without a DM because of random things that have happened. So Idk I am ok with both. I totally agree with the forgetting that you have items in your invontory.. I ahve done that more then I can count I forget to orginize and then have to go running around my invontory trying to find what it is i need when I need it...
Quote from: tspawn35;213005I am completely fine with spicing.. I have died more times on my character on my own without spice in more dumb and retarted ways then i can count..
Good point. I don't need DM spice to die, I can manage that fine on my own! :)
Spice <3
What else are we hoarding all these supplies for, than DM spice!
Every time I've lost a PC to DM spice it was worth it.
A little surprising to hear that players resent spice and even complain to the DMs about it. When I get a spiced quest, I feel kind of special to be honest. It's like striking a jackpot, because the tedium of the same scripted quest is broken and an element of risk and surprise is added.
That said, I have noticed that there is a little less spicing in quests, at least the ones I've been on. Understandable if it's not a priority, but I would love to see more.
As one who quests a lot, I love it when a DM decides to randomly spice up a quest I'm on. Especially when the spice becomes more than just creating extra mobs (although that's fine too!).
One of my fond memories of the UD is doing the old goblin fort quest with a PC goblin in our group. The goblins holed themselves up in the chamber room and offered us a huge sum of gold to hand over the goblin PC with us (so that they could execute him as a traitor). We entertained the notion for a while but ended up crushing their barricade anyways.
Point is, spice is awesome.
Quote from: The Old Hack;213000About hoarding consumables, a great danger there is simply not keeping properly track of them. I once died because I had forgotten that my cloak could cast Blur. >.< Putting emergency lifesavers in a quickslot row reserved for this is your friend, here.
I had a circle against evil, and invisiblity potions I could have used and fed to a halfling bard, but gave them blur instead 'cause I didn't realise until after the quest. I'm getting slightly better, though; I'm so used to not even using consumables.
I personally enjoy and find running spices to be easy to balance and I normally make it quite difficult. Most of the time though I see parties get crushed badly only because one or two PCs decide to horde the supplies instead of sharing them or worse, hoarding them but not using them.
Quote from: Wern8;213029I personally enjoy and find running spices to be easy to balance and I normally make it quite difficult. Most of the time though I see parties get crushed badly only because one or two PCs decide to horde the supplies instead of sharing them or worse, hoarding them but not using them.
*scratches head* Well, the last thing you ran with me present I was completely out of spells near the end but the group found two chests full of good stuff. We all shared it around and while we had tough going and one death at the very end, it went fine, I thought.
To have more spice is the DM team's choice and they do it out of their free time. Stop asking for it, give it time.
Obviously a disco_spoon should get spiced every quest.
I support Winston Martins statement.
Once that is said. In all my many years of EFU only 1 episode springs to mind where players were complaning about the "Hard" spice (It was wiggy spice so ofcourse it was insane) And all in all I am sure that the large majority of the players here love spice.
Look at it this way.. How much fun is it to do troll quest for the 100th time? Not much really.. How much fun will it be with just a little bit of DM interaction? It will be so so much better.
The thing is, players who don't like spice probably won't say so in this kind of thread because they fear some kind of being looked down upon (which is silly, tbh, you're free to enjoy the game in your own way, crushing quests is fun too)
More: there's lots of different 'spice', and tbh it's hard to keep track of what player likes what kind of spice. Plus sometimes your pc/player is equiped/wanting for spice, sometimes not.
But the biggest issue for me is groups: I enjoy spicing quests, and sure we can 'spice Disco & co', but if someone else that doesn't really like spice is in Disco's party, what should we do?
For 'medium to hard spice' alone, the odds are 'Disco & co' will both enjoy & survive it, and mr x is gonna be stressed, and that alone will increase his risk of dying, and thus he's gonna hate spice even more.
So... it's not as a simple choice as to pop in DM client, spice a group and think everyone's actually enjoying it.
A while back, there was a post about spicing, saying how DMs would now 'warn beforehand' when they we about to spice a quest. But then it's kind of both silly ICly and perhaps OOCly humiliating for some to go 'oh, well, i'm not coming then'.
Maybe if there was some easy way to id parties/pcs that welcome spice, it's be a way of solving the issue. Like red-colored names or something. Dunno if it's feasible though.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;213081The thing is, players who don't like spice probably won't say so in this kind of thread because they fear some kind of being looked down upon (which is silly, tbh, you're free to enjoy the game in your own way, crushing quests is fun too)
More: there's lots of different 'spice', and tbh it's hard to keep track of what player likes what kind of spice. Plus sometimes your pc/player is equiped/wanting for spice, sometimes not.
But the biggest issue for me is groups: I enjoy spicing quests, and sure we can 'spice Disco & co', but if someone else that doesn't really like spice is in Disco's party, what should we do?
For 'medium to hard spice' alone, the odds are 'Disco & co' will both enjoy & survive it, and mr x is gonna be stressed, and that alone will increase his risk of dying, and thus he's gonna hate spice even more.
So... it's not as a simple choice as to pop in DM client, spice a group and think everyone's actually enjoying it.
A while back, there was a post about spicing, saying how DMs would now 'warn beforehand' when they we about to spice a quest. But then it's kind of both silly ICly and perhaps OOCly humiliating for some to go 'oh, well, i'm not coming then'.
Maybe if there was some easy way to id parties/pcs that welcome spice, it's be a way of solving the issue. Like red-colored names or something. Dunno if it's feasible though.
Thank you.
My name is GoblinSapper, and I'm ga- I mean, I fear spice.
I don't HATE it, it can be awesome, really. When you go into a stressful battle and come out on top it's awesome. When you go into a stressful battle, blow a ton of supplies and die twice...not so much.
It's that high wire balancing act. Also, I now only play girly buffbot PC's that can go invis at a moments notice, so it's better.
Quote from: GoblinSapper;213083I don't HATE it, it can be awesome, really. When you go into a stressful battle and come out on top it's awesome. When you go into a stressful battle, blow a ton of supplies and die twice...not so much.
In regards to that I'd like to say- risk has always been a part of EfU. In fact, it is partially risk that make your times of success meaningful.
Personally, I like the spice but I have actually seen PC's leave a quest as soon as they realized spice was on the way. Hard to balance I suppose.
I love spice. It's one of my favorite parts of the game, and the chance of quests or explorations getting spiced is one of the biggest reasons I quest or leave the ziggurat.
I like to view spice as an opportunity more than a risk of death, if an evil wizard appears and starts throwing explosive goblin heads at me, I can defeat him and then try and force him to provide my company of evil mercenaries with explosive goblin heads of our own.
Even if it doesn't end up working out, in the end the DM overseeing the spice now knows about your kick-ass evil mercenary company and their desire for explosive goblin heads.
That's the sort of thing that I think can't have a price-tag in potions expended and experience lost. I'd gladly have my character die back down to level two for the opportunity to further the goals of my character/organization (Although I'd also love to do that without dying).
I can see where some people are coming from, though, dying and/or losing a bunch of consumables sucks. I'm all for some kinda warning system that'd let DMs know who likes spice and who doesn't.
For me, not even impossible spice is bad. The kind of spice that forces a player to retreat or gives them a losing way out is the best kind. When it comes to quests, players have far too much of an immortality concept, feeling like taking the risk of doing a certain quest without there actually being any, because they know OOC exactly what's going to happen and what the right strategy is.
It is excellent when a player has to forego that assuredness. It provides not just true risk (as long as the DM makes it a risk, not just sheer adversity), but also excitement and potential reward.
On the nature of risks: a risk is a measure that can be taken by choice. If avoided, some loss is usually involved (if not, you're talking a gamble). If taken, there is only a chance of success and thus gain, but failure involves even greater loss.
My appeal to DMs is to please include the choice aspect of risk. It avoids the problem that this topic deals with, while at the same time encouraging players to take risk, after all, if they don't, they're certain to lose.
Just to return to Disco's post.
I have had DM spice on every one of the last 5 quests I have done with my main PC. I am not sure I have ever done Corals, Sunken Enclave or the Conclave Quest without getting random spice!
Certainly not a rare thing for all. I try to take the DM "love" as a good sign :)
Lucky bastard.
I don't mind impossible spice it's just that no one ever wants to run except me, because they automatically assume there's a way to win.
Players who assume they can beat everything they face are stupid.
"Oh, the DM wouldn't spawn that dragon if there wasn't a fair way we could kill it without too much of a hassle."
Quote from: Yalta;213241Just to return to Disco's post.
I have had DM spice on every one of the last 5 quests I have done with my main PC. I am not sure I have ever done Corals, Sunken Enclave or the Conclave Quest without getting random spice!
Certainly not a rare thing for all. I try to take the DM "love" as a good sign :)
cough