I've for a while thought about paladins and their relations to/opposition towards evil characters. One of the things that have troubled me is the reactions following their discovery of an evil character due to the 'Detect Evil' ability. From what I have seen, it is extremely common for paladins to instantly and dramatically proclaim the 'evil nature' of the person they have spotted and then subsequently refuse to have anything to do with that person. Now, I am not saying that this is a 'wrong' reaction -- it's just that it bothers me if it is supposed to be the only possible reaction for a paladin.
I think I should clarify my thoughts a little. While I've met many paladin characters over time, I tend to divide them into subcategories. One category is the 'crusader' paladin whose instant and knee-jerk reaction to evil is to out sword and hack away. Another is the 'defender' paladin who tends toward the more patient and planning and allows the enemy to reveal its intentions. A third and fairly rare type is the 'diplomat' paladin who likes to move in political circles and use the law itself as her weapon in the battle against evil. Fourth and rarest is the 'redeemer' paladin who, while certainly not afraid to out sword and do bloody work, will nonetheless first seek to understand the nature of the evil he confronts in an attempt to see if it cannot be swayed towards a peaceful solution and perhaps even turned away from evil.
As I see it, the instant rejection of evil characters might work fine and be in character for the first type but becomes rather more problematic for categories two, three and four. To be honest, I don't like the idea that a paladin character of mine should have to be that blunt and unsubtle. What concerns me here is whether it is considered RP acceptable behavior here on EfU: A for a paladin to bide her/his time and observe a detected 'evil' character for a while before deciding what to do about it, which includes grouping with the character on occasion, listening to her/his ideas and motivations and so forth. (I am not saying join their guilds or that sort of thing, only that the rules for the paladin says that the paladin cannot abide direct evil acts from her companions, not that she has to instantly and automatically reject anyone who pings evil on the detect evil ability.)
In short, what is acceptable behavior for the paladin here? Is the automatic rejection mandatory, do you feel, or are shades of subtlety permissible for paladins? And in the latter case, what is permissible and when is it 'too much'?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
~Hack
You can certainly interact with evil characters, but you should not be questing with them.
Quests for paladins are serious business. And being put in a situation in which you might divide up rewards/treasure earned with evil members of your group is a moral hazard for them.
You can be just as you want. People have different personalities, but paladins carry that certain code. One matter is sure, if you work with evil, you will slowly lose your powers as paladin - there is no going around that, no matter what, what ever the reason.
Naturally we can't count being on the same battlefield against orcs and evil guys happen to be on your side.
If you google paladins with keywords 'Forgotten realm paladin', it gives quite good opinions and variety on ideals - but certain rules and codes still apply. Some yell out the evil, but maybe more common paladins would not. Evil, tainted or not, some may agree it does not excuse the paladin to go out of his manners or honour even then.
Quote from: The Old Hack;207165From what I have seen, it is extremely common for paladins to instantly and dramatically proclaim the 'evil nature' of the person they have spotted and then subsequently refuse to have anything to do with that person.
Personally, i hate such paladins. Limits storytelling a huge lot.
Secondly because D&D morality just doesn't get along with rational thinking, "evil" is an inhate energy on the person, and a paladin can see the person is "evil" just by seeing this energy, but a person that hasn't done anything "evil" shouldn't be confornted and instantly killed by a paladin even if it is seen as "evil" with the detect evil ability.
What if the person is trying to be good? What if the person is under the influence of some evil force or just being dragged down the path of evil by truly evil people with lots of persuation? What if the person must do evil acts in order to survive? This are all questions a good paladin should ask himself before behading a random person who had the evil aura on them.
Personally, i think the only reason why a paladin should directly confront an evil PC is because he has proof or at least enough convincing evidence that PC hoas done something evil. "Detect evil" should make a paladin suspicious of the persn (And because of that, he wouldn't quest with them, help them in major schemes or things he doesn't know the purpose for, or belive what they say without proof) and have him keep an eye out for actual proof the person is evil. Then, depending on the personality of the paladin, he takes action.
On a side note, when speaking about the taint or the fact that "detect evil" shows the PC is evil, screaming "OMG HEZ EVIL!!!!!11111" should not be the reaction. And no "OMG HEZ TAINED!!!!111" shoudln't be the reaction either. When an evil PC is leading the party, why not come up with somehting more resonable like "I don't trust this man, and i don't think any of you should." Name his crimes, or what the paladin thinks he has done, but give a reason for actually naming him evil.
Think of evil as the greeks did. Zeus held two pots, one filled with good, the other evil.
An evil person would have more 'evil' liquid inside of him.
A good person would have more 'good'.
A neutral would have about equal portions.
A person who is evil, but trying to become good, would slowly gain good or loose some of his evil until the good clearly overpowers the evil.
Until this happened, he is still evil
Perhaps its a bad analogy, but its the closest I can think of to what FR represents as evil.
An Evil person is someone who would or, or has done, many Evil acts.
Someone asked about this in IRC recently, and I told them that in my own opinion, I think a paladin would definitely want to spread knowledge of a person's "evilitude". But a lot of it does depend on dogma and character personality, the redeemer is one of my favorite paladin's to encounter, (maybe because I'm often a villain <_<) but I think that any 'quest' scripted or otherwise where loot distribution will occur, a paladin cannot allow an evil hearted person to work with them on. The money/items are going to a bad place in all likelihood, whether that wand of sleep the shifty guy in the hood took is going to be used to knock out a poor dwarf who got lost in the alleyways, or the money he obtained is going to be used to fund the next big attack on the establishment. The paladin can't and won't contribute to the prosperity of "evil".
QuoteName his crimes, or what the paladin thinks he has done, but give a reason for actually naming him evil.
The reason is that the paladin is the servant of a powerful celestial force that reveals to him when evil acts have stained the soul of an individual.
Evil in our setting is not like "evil" in the real world. It is not subjective, it is an objective and measurable force.
Paladins are bestowed with an extraordinary gift to detect this evil, and although they are often bound to a code of general courtesy they are also truthful.
I think the conflict between a paladin & villain should be story building. I personally don't like when a paladin goes; "You're evil. Get out of my sight.", likely, a palading would understand it probably goes far deeper than that.
Often times, evil acts are commited out of desperation, survival, etc. Like mentioned above, these things would likely be taken into account before any actions are taken - unless your paladin has incredibly low wisdom.
As for the story building, I'd like to see the relationship between a villain and paladin involve others, possibly, or just be interesting to begin with, and interesting to watch.
I thank all who have answered so far for your input. It has sparked a couple additional thoughts and questions.
For example, past burden of sin. I envisioned my character Ulfrin as a mainly Neutral personality who nonetheless had one very bad action on her conscience that she was trying to learn from and rise above. Would it have been better or at any rate acceptable roleplaying in this case to have started her as Neutral Evil but aiming at trying to be Neutral instead? Mentioning this in the private OOC character forum, of course.
Next: Accepting that questing with evil characters is either out or at least carries problematic consequences for one's paladinhood, I am still not certain that the paladin would proclaim why they rejected the person in question -- or at any rate, I feel that they might choose to spread their warning in a more diplomatic or subtle manner. Here I support those who feel that the paladin need not recoil in open horror and scream denunciations. Of course it is also plain that the paladin should warn others, but it need not be done at once and in a loud display of histrionics.
Third: What about other Lawful Good or at least strongly Good characters? Granted that they have no divine standing to endanger, do they risk alignment shifts for grouping with evil characters? Or perhaps I should say knowingly so -- I do not quite see that such shifts would be fair if the evil was an unknown quantity.
Once again, thank you for your input and thanks in advance for further thoughts.
~Hack.
Quote from: The Old Hack;207184Here I support those who feel that the paladin need not recoil in open horror and scream denunciations. Of course it is also plain that the paladin should warn others, but it need not be done at once and in a loud display of histrionics.
Some PCs are evil enough that the paladin will be dazed, stunned, or even knocked down, when they're detected.
Something to keep in mind; evil isn't just something that paladins can see, it's something that they
have to make a saving throw against! :p
Quote from: ScottyB;207189Some PCs are evil enough that the paladin will be dazed, stunned, or even knocked down, when they're detected.
Well maybe, but surely DM-level evil can't be all
that common among PCs. :cool:
Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;207178I think the conflict between a paladin & villain should be story building. I personally don't like when a paladin goes; "You're evil. Get out of my sight.", likely, a palading would understand it probably goes far deeper than that.
Often times, evil acts are commited out of desperation, survival, etc. Like mentioned above, these things would likely be taken into account before any actions are taken - unless your paladin has incredibly low wisdom.
That's what i was trying to say, thanks.
Evil is serious shit. Don't take it lightly, if a paladin says someone is evil it is in my honest opinion that at least some other non-evil characters should be like "Oh shit, evil person? Bad guy? What, is he a thief? Murderer? Psychopath?" Evil isn't some obscure thing in this world, evil is a very real force, it goes out and raids defenseless villages for loot, it steals, it kills, it destroys, and accusing someone of being such is a serious accusation that people should listen to, whether or not they believe it.
Paladins typically use detect evil to make sure they don't quest with evil, and I don't mean to insult anyone by this, but the RP that comes from harpy group #58712 isn't probably as high in quality as the evil person feeling insulted, trying to counter the paladin's accusations, likely insulting the paladin a few times back, saying that he's good to have around, etc.
A paladin is opposed to evil, if you're evil, you're an enemy. They'll be courteous to a point, but don't expect them to tolerate you in the slightest.
I find that being a Paladin is hard trying to figure out what to say. I made the mistake for calling someone out for being evil when the group was forming and what i got was a "you are insane and need to go to the mental ward." From that experience i find the best approach is to instead of calling out said person I will instead just state that I sense something is a miss with the group and walk away. If it's for a quest group that is and i didn't form it. I try not to form groups for I do not know how to turn people away. The other thing is just because someone is evil does not mean you call them out on it you haven't seem them do anything. (Unless it's for a group that is.) so until they do something I just pretend that I did not know they were evil but I do not lie I just say nothing about it.. I have worked with evil and paid for it.. it made for good character development and my character learned from her mistake. Anther good place to look is:
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=guide
for gods: http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38
Character:
Ivana Keralexis Paladin of Tyr
No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime. The fact of the matter and the real root of the problem is that few evil aligned PCs on EFU act out their alignment. The vast majority of them should be neutral aligned. To use a specific and recent example. The ruthless and highly chaotic PC Walter Hodgeton started neutral and shifted on a downward spiral to evil after several notable acts. So when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not, then go neutral initially like Walter did.
Do keep in mind that (at least in d&d) alignment isn't everything. Even common peasants, who under the influence of a Hextoran regime, can turn evil in time. Not because they've actually done any thing evil or committed any crimes, but because of the mindset itself and indoctrination, and because evil is a -tangible- effect. It effects not just one person, but everyone around them, and even the land and air itself, which is why Detect Evil (again, this is the d&d detect evil I reference, not the efu detect evil) also can detect cursed terrain and the lingering effects of evil. Even if you are 100% pure of any crime or sin you can still be evil through many different reasons- evil is a morality alignment, not an ethical one (see the d&d moral/ethical alignment axis), and morals can be built up or degraded given external influence. The alignment is a persons outlook on life more than a record sheet of deeds. Again though this is just dungeons and dragons I talk about. I know many things are changed for this server, including the very function of a paladins detect evil and its usage.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;207204No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime. The fact of the matter and the real root of the problem is that few evil aligned PCs on EFU act out their alignment. The vast majority of them should be neutral aligned. To use a specific and recent example. The ruthless and highly chaotic PC Walter Hodgeton started neutral and shifted on a downward spiral to evil after several notable acts. So when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not, then go neutral initially like Walter did.
Yes!
Having played a Paladin, the rejection of evil PC's is a difficult part of it, but a necessary one. Part of what defines your paladin is HOW they interact with evil. Just because you won't quest with them doesn't mean you can't, say, have an awesome conversation with them:
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41917
There is a general mentality that Paladins are meant to be crusaders, so all they should do is choppy chop chop evil, but I rather feel paladins ought to be inspirations and hero's. It comes down to what you feel that means, individually. For me, it means giving at least one hard sell to try and redeem people. Then you crush their heads with a hammer later.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;207204No real paladin will excuse any evil act made even in desperation. The circumstances only matter in the consideration of the gravity of a specific crime.
Excuse? Possibly not. Forgive a repenting sinner? That is a different matter, I feel. Someone may be guilty of a crime done in a moment of passion and be haunted by it later, seeking to atone or to do better in the future. Or -- and this is where someone seeking to redeem might step in -- live in denial of their guilt, try to justify an evil act to themselves. Such a person shown that all this denial is is running away from herself might at last start the long hard road towards atonement.
The trick, of course, is to know when such a person actually desires to turn away from evil, or may be shown that it is better to do so. Some cases are indeed hopeless. Others... are merely very, very difficult.
QuoteSo when you create your PC you should put heavy consideration into whether this PC really has committed many depraved, evil acts that are worthy of the alignment with future intent to commit many more. If not, then go neutral initially like Walter did.
I'd like to have this clarified, please. What of a man who has at least once committed cold-blooded murder in order to achieve an ambition of his and who feels untroubled by it and would do it again? What of a psychopath who might be a doting father and family man and then turn around and cause destruction and death when his loved ones cannot see him? Is evil a matter of mindset or does it only become manifest with action? If the latter, what of the person who has erred into some act of destruction or murder but tries to atone or do better in the future?
Also, I would like to repeat an earlier question of mine. Would it be acceptable RP, possibly requiring DM approval, to start an 'evil' character that is seeking to climb free of her past misdeeds and atone? I ask because I am genuinely interested and might want to use an idea like that at some point. (Saying that in that case you just start out Neutral is an acceptable answer as it won't keep me from using my idea. :) )
The "You're evil" speech is always hard for me to do as a paladin, and so I always try to make the encounters slightly more interesting. I usually am asked to point them out, and will do so quietly, not screaming a whole lot. Other times I will make a flowery speech about how I don't know how they've fallen to the path they're on, or even if they are repenting; only that I hope they find their way. Regardless of the circumstance I am unable to assist them in battle in any way. Such would be dishonorable, and so it is better that I not accompany them or they not come. Even this gets boring after awhile, but I prefer it to the more common reactions.
In this matter, evil is actions done, or that mischievous and malicious nature that clearly calls out for such actions. It's pretty black and white in the case of paladins. They cannot excuse it, they cannot neither forget it, not before they have actually seen the taint fade and feel the person changing. As long as their god given powers tell them that person is evil, he is evil. No going around it.
It is easy to do good deeds, but no matter how many you do, it will never repent for that murder you did in past. It would require constant and vigorous devotion to the ideal of good and just to overcome that "taint" or what ever it is, so going up from evil is extremely difficult, and will require some outstanding actions for the good of others.
It's easy to just murder innocent and fall from grace with one swing, but climbing back may not be even possible, or it would take ridiculous effort.
Also note for the above comment (a couple up actually) that psychopathy does not equal criminality, though it would be evil. In fact, you can be a psychoapth with an evil alignment (evil of course because of the disposition on life) and live from birth to death with a 100% clean rap sheet with no crimes or foul deeds, though still maintaining that twisted view on life and the relation of people within it. This is one of the reason why sociopaths make the best military personelle- it does not mean they will be criminals nor butchers, but you can rely on them to get the job requested of them done without moral conflict over taking life. Also why many NE mercenaries can be found. The job itself, killing people for the sheer purpose of your next pay check, is an evil thing, even if you are hired by good forces and have committed no past crimes or bad deeds. Not to say all mercenaries are NE and that none of them care about anything other than money, but just an example of an evil by moral disposition rather than by dark acts.
Edit: Little random dragon lore blurb! This is why Gold dragons, the paladins of the dragon community, do not chase justice on alignment alone. They wait in sting operations, getting close to the evils and at times befriending them on the surface, and then catching them in the act to turn over to local law enforcement.
Everything that has been discussed here has been very helpfull, i haven't yet played a paladin, however those that i have came across, you can tell instantly whether they play the part well or not.
Those that simply start blabbering on about 'The Taint on your soul' and have nothing else to do with you, although this may be IC and acceptable, it is quite annoying and boring as it completly gets rid of any awsome RP opportunities. From my point of view it is great to act as someone said earlier a role model and be a hero, and i find it lazy for people to just state 'your tainted so bye bye'
I will say that I am learning as I go. My character has made mistakes and been called out for it like working with evil. Getting scared when about to die. Calling out evil when a group is forming.. etc.. etc.. I take it as i come it's a learning process for my character and it makes her stronger. It also makes for great RP later. My character is human both as a race and in the fact that she makes mistakes. At the end of the day everything she does will make her stronger.
Paladins gain a feat called I think it's Heroic Presence. Immune to fear, magical and mundane. That's not to say she can't make a strategic retreat, under the condition that in saving her skin other people do not die instead. If someone has to die it'll be you to protect the rest ^^
Yes, i know... I just have a bad habit from playing other classes in other games and that is when I am close to death I back away from the monster to try and heal myself.. it a bad habit for that is not how a paladin works when in a group. I understand that, I have read the post about paladins. I just forgot. Which made for an interesting converstion IC. I said nothing at the time but the person was right. I am just going to chulk that up to she got scared and it made her forgot her teaching at the time.. it won't happen again. lol
I would like to see paladins who oppose people that commit evil actions regardless if those people detect as evil or not. A neutral person who commits those actions should be almost as bad in their eyes as someone who detects as evil.
I completely agree an evil act is still evil.
I'd like to see paladins who don't use Detect Evil at all, but instead use the Wisdom and Charisma they's required to have in order to figure out the motives of people and the best course of action. Nobody's forcing you to use the metagamey ability (I sure hope), so if you feel it's awkward, why use it at all? If you assume your paladin is oath-forbidden or simply unable to use it at all (which is very possible), you dodge the issue and open the door for serious and challenging RP.
All in all, I think people are way too narrow-minded about paladins. They make absolutely ridicilous absolute claims about "all" paladins in "every" situation. That's always a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot. Paladins are just as diverse as any other class, only in a much narrower field. The possibilities within that small field are still theoretically endless, though.
You should always first and foremost consider the personality of your PC and the context of the situation he's in. You should reflect this on your god's dogma, the orders of your church superiors, and your paladin oath, whatever that is. It really shouldn't be your job to consider OOC what a paladin is supposed or allowed to do, at all. You should do what your character would do, and there's no reason to assume he'd know more about acceptable paladin conduct than you do. If your god disagrees, that's up to the DMs. And that's another valid IC event. I hate it when players try to avoid negative consequences OOC. Do what your PC believes is the right thing, even if that goes against the traditional idea of paladins. If it happens that you're wrong, then you fall and you can wage ethical war against your god who seems to have taken the side of the wrong-doers.
The thing is, that ability is their given ability, and it is supposed to be used. It's just how it is. You should use it. How you use it and react to it though, is up to you.
Well, I hardly think the DMs are going to force you to assume it's an ability your paladin has and must use. (And if they do, I hope they won't say it here; it should be discovered IC.) Why would every paladin in every order get identical powers? In fact they don't, there are plenty of Subsitution Levels, like pseudo-prestige classes, that you use in place of pure paladin levels, introduced for several orders in Champions of Valor.
It is very well conceivable that some paladins in some orders would have sworn an oath to face other people on equal ground, relying on their natural wisdom and perceptiveness, instead of making the arguably unfair magical act of invading your soul without permission and defining you externally. (Not everyone sees it like this, but it's definetely a very defensible notion.) Maybe some gods like Lathander want their paladins to sharpen their mind like that (portfolio: self-perfection) and give the benefit of the doubt to people who might so repent (portfolio: new beginnings).
No, it's hardly the norm. But it's quite feasible, so I don't think anyone should OOCly dictate how everyone must play their paladin.
It's exactly the unbending lack of imagination your post portrays, Paha Poika, that I find so frustrating in attitudes about paladins.
The thing is, it is not my imagination that does not bend here. It has been said, it is an ability given by their deity and it is also something they are supposed to use. It's not my words, nor my invention.
How Paladins react to this knowledge of another person and this feeling that surrounds them, is where your imagination kicks in. There's virtuous paladins, there's the vengeful types and avengers, and as many as you can think of.
Make no mistake for a moment that I would play typical paladin of shouting the tainted persons darkness when he stands next to me. Don't insult me in assuming how I handle myself, but read the text as it is. That ability is what it is, and it's not my attitude or my imagination that says so.
You can fight and kick back on it, but that's how it is. You can of course not use it. No one can force you, but it is an ability that is supposed to be used. If you're prepared to ignore a given ability from your Deity, that they have deemed for you to use, then go ahead.
While Barehander is correct about just simply doing what your character should do, even if it is against the Paladin code and bares negative consequences, Detect Evil is not a metagaming ability at all nor is it in any way bad or silly on EFU:A, it is in fact a big part of the Paladin class and if properly done, adds to role-playing, of course it should not be overly dependent on though and a Paladin should still make use of his own common sense and capabilities when acting against evil.
Now, If you do not want to use detect evil or find it a silly ability, I suggest refraining from playing a Paladin as it likely does not fit you and you will definitely fall if you play it this way, while we definitely allow Fallen Paladins, we do not want players to make Paladins with the purpose of falling as their foremost desire, especially through not using Detect Evil.
Edited: All Paladins regardless of deity do receive the ability to detect evil and have basically the very same code, there are differences between the faiths though, but the basic features of the class remain. I recommend this thread (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32474%22) for further reading as well.
Quote from: Barehander;207621It's exactly the unbending lack of imagination your post portrays, Paha Poika, that I find so frustrating in attitudes about paladins.
I'd like not seeing this kind of stuff on forums. Please stay cool.
Concerning the OP, it's a recurrent theme. Paladins are free to use it whenever they want. There are not free as bound by their oath of courtesy to start insulting someone about it. But there's a middle ground too, which isn't that hard to find.
If you're not confortable with it, don't play paladins. On the recieving end, detect evil can and will be used against unwilling PCs, thats what it's for.
One hint i could give is if the evil person starts to demand as to 'why is that guy not liking me', then he should be prepared for the short explaination. You're digging your own hole if you're asking a paladin to justify his 'sight'.
Paha Poika: Imagination creates the reality of the game. EfU and our PCs aren't real, so nothing "just is" unless we imagine it so. There's no reason not to imagine that some Paladin did not have the ability, other than arbitrary taste. Now, it's true that people (in our case, the DMs) can enforce their subjective taste on everyone, but that's rather crude and banal and I doubt EfU DMs are stubborn enough to turn down a good explanation when they're given one.
Quote from: Wern8;207624Detect Evil is not a metagaming ability at all nor is it in any way bad or silly on EFU:A, it is in fact a big part of the Paladin class and if properly done, adds to role-playing, of course it should not be overly dependent on though and a Paladin should still make use of his own common sense and capabilities when acting against evil.
Now, If you do not want to use detect evil or find it a silly ability, I suggest refraining from playing a Paladin as it likely does not fit you and you will definitely fall if you play it this way, while we definitely allow Fallen Paladins, we do not want players to make Paladins with the purpose of falling as their foremost desire, especially through not using Detect Evil.
Edited: All Paladins regardless of deity do receive the ability to detect evil and have basically the very same code, there are differences between the faiths though. I recommend this thread (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32474%22) for further reading as well.
What is silly or metagamey is a matter of taste. The statement that "it's not silly on EfU" is rather silly itself, suggesting that there is some uniform taste enforced on the server.
I think it's silly,
I've never seen anything good come of it,
I want nothing to do with it, and
I will play a paladin if
I feel like it. You can disagree, and that's perfectly fine. I do hope that when the time comes, you will consider my PC without bias and see if it's as poor a concept as you're predisposed to think.
Paladins in the Realms don't have identical codes. There's no The Paladin Code. It's bluntly stated in the Campaign Setting. Of course, it's possible that you've houseruled otherwise (probably originally out of ignorance, even if you've since come to like it better), but I see no reason why you wouldn't also allow people to play paladins as they are in the Realms. Not everyone has to dance to one tune, not everything has to conform to one uniform taste. I can make just as good, if not better an argument for my view as you can for yours. You can either squish me with dogmatic authority as is your right as a DM, or you can live and let live. I guess we'll see when/if I make my paladin, though.
LPFF: I was thinking that might come off as rude, so I'm sorry about that. It wasn't my intention, and I'm actually rather cool. I just like to post dramatic. >_<
There actually is "The Paladin Code", it was just not stated in the FRCS, it was in Defenders of the Faith: A Guidebook to Clerics and Paladins, but for easier reference and more EFU:A based, see the link I gave out, it is very much the same.
Barehander, again with the detect-evil-paladin-threads.
QuoteYou can either squish me with dogmatic authority as is your right as a DM, or you can live and let live.
I will squish you with my dogmatic authority. I care nothing for canon, frankly, beyond the fact that it was a useful starting point.
But in EFU, a distinguishing feature of the paladin class - an important limitation, in fact - is that they are so beholden to the force of good that to go on a quest with an evil companion is contrary to their nature and code. A code that we have decided exists for all paladins.
Yes, we think it is silly for paladins to choose to go off and kill Harpies with Joe Evil. And yes, we will adjust your alignment over time as it is observed.
But I think your concept sounds great as a fighter, or fighter/divine champion, fighter/cleric, or any number of other classes or class combinations. What, after all, is so important about being a "paladin"?
Howland?
More like HITLER.
DON'T TREAD ON ME, PALIN 2012
lol
Wern8: The Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, A Grand Tour Of The Realms, page 14:
"There is no specific paladin's code, no set of do's and don'ts by which paladins are judged on a pass/fail basis." What follows is mention of an IC document, Quentin's Monograph, which is a widely known treatise on paladins and virtues but not normative among different faiths. Then this: "[E]very paladin grades and emphasizes these virtues based on his or her own personal ethos and religious background. ---Paladins may obey all these virtues to the letter and still lose their special status, or flout one virtue in the name of another and still retain paladinhood. In this fashion, a paladin may exist outside an organized hierarchy or even lead rebellions and wars against unjust or evil causes. It is possible under these virtues that one paladin may even fight another, both seeking to defend a different paladin’s virtue or interpretation of all of them."
I know you've decided this doesn't apply for EfU. (Though saying you don't care about Forgotten Realms is not an argument; it just shows you don't have a more elaborate case to make.) It's just that your idea of paladins is so far out from what they are in the original setting that you're hardly fair to assume everyone will buy into it with a smile. Why can't you accept that not everyone likes your idea and shares your taste, and that maybe they still want to play your cool server?
The point isn't who's right and whose view should be enforced for all. The point is, why does one view have to be enforced at all? Why the prevalent trend that everything has to be just like you imagined it when you created the module? It's not as if diversity and independence is bad for a server. Right now many EfU veterans are so used to doing what DMs "expect of them" that the result is a stagnant rotation of the same concepts over and over again: "yeah conflict, PvP, good stuff gone twisted, evil stuff gone twisted, conflict, yeah PCs that live two weeks and archetypes from B-grade fantasy literature!" I know I'm exaggerating, but there really is an unusual number of yay-sayers and sycophants on EfU and I can't help but wonder if it's because you expect players to do what you want, instead of going out of your way to facilitate what players want. You've actually created a pretty dynamic story with your policy, but some diversity isn't going to ruin that.
What's good about being a paladin is that it's such a stagnant pile of false preconceptions that it's fun and challenging to breate new life into it. There's nothing controversial about playing a Fighter/Cleric, but showing that not all typical beliefs about Paladins are justified is controversial and exciting. And it's never wrong to rattle the cage a little.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to use Harvard standard notation if you're going to reference.
Quote your idea and shares your taste, and that maybe they still want to play your cool server?
Pretty much says it all. This server is -Howlands-, and is run by howland and the DM team. What they say goes, and you are making a massive fuss over something relatively stupid.
Quite simply, if you want to play a "divine warrior" class, but not be restricted by the Paladin Code set here. Play a Fighter/Cleric, or play a Divine Champion.
Though the question really is, why would your LG pc want to go hanging around with evil people anyway. Seems to me like you want the paladin spells and abilities, but not the responsibilties of RPing that class.
You can make your substantive critiques of EFU and whether its a "stagnant rotation of the same concepts" (strongly disagree) or whether our playerbase is filled with "sycophants" (very amusing to me) on another thread. I am perfectly prepared to explain why I believe it is necessary that the DM team establish certain facts and aspects of the setting/classes, and why I think this is a good thing.
You seem to have some sort of philosophical disagreement with our policy of setting certain things down in stone, but to debate that here is off topic.
This thread is about DE and the Paladin Code.
We made the decision that:
QuoteBut in EFU, a distinguishing feature of the paladin class - an important limitation, in fact - is that they are so beholden to the force of good that to go on a quest with an evil companion is contrary to their nature and code. A code that we have decided exists for all paladins.
If you really want to play a paladin that for some reason does not follow this code, you can submit an application. The application will be carefully considered on its merits (and then probably denied).
We like Detect Evil because -
1 - the situation of paladins questing with evil characters is lame and silly to us
2 - it is an essential feature of the Paladin class, and this limitation/handicap is part of the fun with them
3 - It is an important balancing factor considering the various mechanical powers they possess (saves, immunities, bless weapon, etc.)
4 - As DMs stretched thin watching over a (very) successful server with a playerbase of hundreds, we do not really have the time to monitor the actions of a paladin who
did quest with evil characters. And if we did selectively only sometimes adjustment alignment, why then we'd be dragged into massive arguments and debates with pedantic players (such as yourself) who appear to get this massive thrill out of repeatedly trolling/arguing with DMs (yet barely ever actually playing)
5 - It's basically just more fun for paladins and everyone involved
6 - Probably lots of other reasons but to be honest I just can't be bothered.
Yes, we set the rules. You seem to not like the fact that we set the rules. Fine, but it's the way it is. You're welcome to vote with your feet and find somewhere else to.... sort of play.
In the meantime, I and the rest of the DM staff will continue to bust our butts every day to make this the server as good as it can be, and part of that means tossing down some chaos points when we see paladins questing it up killing goblins in the company of evil Pcs :-)
Quote from: Equinox;207637Pretty much says it all. This server is -Howlands-, and is run by howland and the DM team. What they say goes, and you are making a massive fuss over something relatively stupid.
Quite simply, if you want to play a "divine warrior" class, but not be restricted by the Paladin Code set here. Play a Fighter/Cleric, or play a Divine Champion.
Though the question really is, why would your LG pc want to go hanging around with evil people anyway. Seems to me like you want the paladin spells and abilities, but not the responsibilties of RPing that class.
I disagree with every paragraph. The assumptions you make are outright insulting, even if you didn't mean them as such: I'm not making a paladin anytime soon, and I have no desire to "hang out with evil people". I dislike the very idea of Detect Evil, an ability that was never meant to be used against PCs and is purely a tool of convenience in a PnP campaign. It simply has no place in RP, as far as I'm concerned. Even moreso I dislike the idea that someone else tells me how I have to play my paladin. Basically, it's a case of "somebody's wrong on the Internet." ;)
Of course what Howland says goes. That's exactly why I'm making an argument here, instead of just doing what I want. It's our job as players to communicate what we want, because that's what every server is ultimately about: giving players what they want. You'd be pretty stupid to play here if you weren't getting what you want. If a change is needed in order for you to get what you want, then you need to convince people that the change is good. Players around here need to grow a pair and stop being afraid of disagreeing with the DMs. Howland is a mature and smart guy, and I've yet to be banned for ranting in public and in PMs.
EDIT: Howland: fair enough, we're off topic. And I get it, you like Detect Evil and have several reasons for doing so. I don't, and I don't have to because the rules don't force me to. My contribution to this topic is that you don't need to use Detect Evil all the time (or you should use it only when you have reason to suspect someone is evil; black spiky armor or other clichés seem good enough a reason). That means you have to be on your toes and watch out for any indications of evil to give you reason to use your god-given gift. It's much more challenging, the responsibility of paladinhood weighs heavier on your shoulders that way. Certainly not the opposite, as some in the Solution Button camp seem to suggest. So I suggest you try it, and see if you'll have similar awkward situations where you have to call out and slander an evil guy in public for no reason.
There is comunicating what we -would like- and there is reality. You are living in a dreamworld if you are "speaking for the players" As i'd wager 90% of efu's players like the DE ability. It just seems to me you are making mountains out of grains of sand.
Quite clearly this discussion isn't going anywhere helpful, DM's might as well lock it.
I'm speaking purely and selfishly for myself. As should everyone. Nobody can do it for you. I agree this is a mountain out of a grain of salt, but the real issue is not the ability itself but rather the dogmatic fanaticism people treat it and related issues with. Whe it comes to RP, my doctrine is that "if it's cool, anything goes."
Thread has been derailed, substantive critiques about the oppressive and dogmatic ways of myself and the EFU DM Team can go elsewhere.
Knowingly questing with evil is contrary to the code of all Paladins, it should therefore be avoided in virtually all cases. Requests for exceptions may be submitted via Application.
Thread closed.
That's all, folks.