A lot of work under the hood has gone on recently (with big thanks to Johannes for outstanding scripting!), that I wanted to make you guys aware of.
1 - We now have a lot more flexibility in terms of making custom, scripted loot. Basically we can make items with a unique power effect without making a particular script for it, basically doing it all through a web interface. It's very cool and as a consequence you might start to see more unique to efu stuff.
2 - Part of that system includes drugs. Basically these are consumeables that can have various bonuses/drawbacks. They will generally also lead to the possibility of addiction and severe withdrawal. Please keep an eye out for bugs with this, and feel free to make suggestions about any concerns. Note: We're not interested in seeing "bad" RP related to that, like cheesy "Oh I'm SO high!" silly stoner stuff. Of course you should RP the consequences of what your character is experiencing, but it should be done tastefully and in a setting appropriate way.
3 - Pretty much all temporary summons have been adjusted to be 1 HD now. This was done primarily to keep our invasion-quest from breaking with too many spawns as well as standard quests. Additionally, they've virtually all been tweaked in their abilities and powers. HPs, AC, saves, BAB, attacks/round, abilities, etc. should all be adjusted either manually or through scripting. However! Please keep an eye out for bugs or imbalances, and feel free to make comments in the exploitable bug reports forum. Note: don't trust the character sheet, it may be misleading
4 - Some various spell changes have been made, including fixing evard's so immunity: evard's black tentacles correctly makes you immune as well as making SR count against it. Color Spray also has the same effect regardless of HD.
5 - A lot of quests are in the process of being adjusted, particularly as regards risk/reward. Since this is more easily adjusted now, expect quests that we see being done a lot to have their XP reduced... and quests that are done less often to have theirs increased.
I am all in favor of these changes TBH.
For one the drug system is pretty awesome I was suprised....There also should be some sort of way to design and make drugs for our alchemical/herbalist friends.
And more unique loot is awesome.
Well, since this thread is labaled "Discussion" I will just go down the list with my own thoughts on these interesting changes!
1) Very cool. More, better, nastier custom loot is always better!
2) I'm kind of indifferent about this. I've never exactly been a huge fan of drugs beyond grass/tobacco/alchohol in my fantasy games, but if it fits the setting, more power to those who choose to delve into it!
3) I'm a little unsure how this works. If they only have 1HD does this mean all summons are exceptionally easy to turn, have very small AB/APR/HP?
4) So color spray has been changed to always stun then, or always blind?
5) I'm a little iffy about this personally. This will typically only hurt the "Average" player, or the player that has difficulty with harder quests. I don't have access to every player's EFUSL obviously, but I would think the more skilled players would just continue romping through the harder quests unaffected by this. In my eyes I have always seen the easier quests vs the harder quests as catering to the vast skill difference you sometimes get between players.
To expand on that, there was some interesting discussion going on in IRC on the subject. One point that came up is that perhaps it would be more fair to balance quest XP at the player level rather than the quest level and have collateral damage. Ie, have quest XP affected by EFUSl stats.
If you quest a lot, you get less XP per quest
If you rarely die, you get less XP per quest
If you do the same quests every reset, the quests you do most frequently begin to offer less XP per quest.
If you rarely quest, you get more XP per quest
If you die frequently, you get more XP per quest
If you do a variety of quests and rarely stick to just the safe ones, more XP per quest.
Just some suggestions I thought were interesting out of the IRC discussion I saw.
I like msot of the changes. The XP nerf to me just sounds like, "Since player A cannot make it to L9 we should make it harder for player B." Which seems a backward way of fixing a problem to me. It will also make certain quests never done, or hardly at all, like Jergal. I very much think there could be a better way to address this issue.
All good. To me it makes sense that the common quests around give a little less exp, and the more effort/travel/rarer ones give a bit more experience. It doesn't hurt people in my eyes, it simply pays as it should for the time spend. This only little bit slows the normal leveling with common every-day quests, and that's not so bad thing.
I agree with paha, and support the change. I'd like to see less people doing orcs 1, granary goblins and troglodtes and isntead go do something more risky, or at least rare, such as flayers, the quest in the lagoon, etc.
EDIT: btw, what happened to elemental summons? If all are HD 1, have new models been made for each summon creature spell? Or are thouse an exception and remain at more than 1 HD?
QuoteFor one the drug system is pretty awesome I was suprised....There also should be some sort of way to design and make drugs for our alchemical/herbalist friends.
There is already.
Quote3) I'm a little unsure how this works. If they only have 1HD does this mean all summons are exceptionally easy to turn, have very small AB/APR/HP
I suggest you work on your reading comprehension. All stats have been adjusted properly through scripting so they're appropriately powerful. Furthermore, things like Turn Dead and the different spells that have different effects that vary by HD have been adjusted to correctly act on summons. Of course more adjustments may be or needed or we may have missed something, so feel free to let us know.
Quote4) So color spray has been changed to always stun then, or always blind?
Always stun.
Quote5) I'm a little iffy about this personally. This will typically only hurt the "Average" player, or the player that has difficulty with harder quests. I don't have access to every player's EFUSL obviously, but I would think the more skilled players would just continue romping through the harder quests unaffected by this. In my eyes I have always seen the easier quests vs the harder quests as catering to the vast skill difference you sometimes get between players.
This only affects end quest XP/gold (which is heavily randomized anyway), so actually isn't that big of a change. I'm just alerting you guys to the fact that quests we don't see being done much (perhaps because it's further away) will be more rewarding and ones that are being spammed will become slightly less rewarding.
QuoteEDIT: btw, what happened to elemental summons? If all are HD 1, have new models been made for each summon creature spell? Or are thouse an exception and remain at more than 1 HD?
The elemental and other discount themes (such as snakes, shadows, insects...) remain at 1 HD but have their saves/AC/attacks/damage/etc. adjusted by summon level.
Good stuff.
The drug system is something I've always been hesitant about, but hell, let's see what happens.
I think lowering the HD of summons was a great idea, so as not to make spawns become ridiculous, however, higher level melee summons, like the illusory doom knight, lose an attack per round, which is quite a large nerf to them. One workaround could be to lower their AC by 4, as well as their movement speed and give them perma haste, this way they'd get that extra action back without running their way about all willy-nilly with blinding speed.
Animates can be given aditional attacks per round without incresing their levels. I had assumed the same would be done with, say, doom knights or erineyes
Why does SR count against Evard's? It's one of very few spells that can bypass spell resistance, and that is part of its appeal.
Probably a balance issue. I guess it was too strong in PvP.
Im all for these changes. But regarding the drugs you imo get addicted a wee bit too fast. Do them once and your hooked is way too fast imo. Make it atleast a cupple of times.
QuoteI think lowering the HD of summons was a great idea, so as not to make spawns become ridiculous, however, higher level melee summons, like the illusory doom knight, lose an attack per round, which is quite a large nerf to them.
How many times is it necessary for me to type that we set the attacks per round via scripting? Illusory Doom Knights and all other level 4 summons still have 2 attacks/round.
At least 5 more times. *nods*
lol, I like it, particularly that bit about color spray. Not a fan of Evard's no longer bypassing SR, though, or even the idea of spell resistance in general. Of course, what few SR items there are are only like SR 10, and you need to be 7 or 8 before you can cast this so it's not such a big deal, as SR is usually low or rare
There's now next to nothing that bypasses Spell Resistance, which is IMO a large balance issue considering that everything from Nightrisers to bosses has SR, not to mention that Evards/Dispel was a decent way to deal with subrace SR. A Cleric or druid with Spell resistance up will block about 50% of offensive spells from an attacker of equal level.
I really think that EFU needs a suitable counter to SR for offensive casters, either by changing a number of spells to bypass SR, or by adding ways for wizards and sorcs to increase their effective CL for the purposes of SR checks. Possibly by granting a free Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration with 5 and 10 ranks in Spellcraft? Dispel might lower SR but it has to get through it first, so maybe make it lower SR by the caster's CL for a couple of rounds to alllow for a follow-up barrage. Currently SR's only real counter is to buy feats, which is expensive compared to having potions or scrolls in reserve as counters.
Finally, the SR change makes Bard or Spells domain dispels useless against Blur, so it'd be good to change it from L1 immunity to individual immunities to all L1 spells except Dispel.
These all seem like good changes, particularly the Evards', which did too much damage, and was nearly like an unblockable fireball with no save to reduce by half.
The Evard's change was absolutely necessary to make immunity: evard's function properly (it goes hand in hand with spell resistance). Even so though I'm inclined to agree that the spell needed another counter.
The drug system is amazing.
Very, very cool addiction for Docks ambiance.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;204733There's now next to nothing that bypasses Spell Resistance, which is IMO a large balance issue considering that everything from Nightrisers to bosses has SR, not to mention that Evards/Dispel was a decent way to deal with subrace SR. A Cleric or druid with Spell resistance up will block about 50% of offensive spells from an attacker of equal level.
I really think that EFU needs a suitable counter to SR for offensive casters, either by changing a number of spells to bypass SR, or by adding ways for wizards and sorcs to increase their effective CL for the purposes of SR checks. Possibly by granting a free Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration with 5 and 10 ranks in Spellcraft? Dispel might lower SR but it has to get through it first, so maybe make it lower SR by the caster's CL for a couple of rounds to alllow for a follow-up barrage. Currently SR's only real counter is to buy feats, which is expensive compared to having potions or scrolls in reserve as counters.
Finally, the SR change makes Bard or Spells domain dispels useless against Blur, so it'd be good to change it from L1 immunity to individual immunities to all L1 spells except Dispel.
Aren't there two feats that boost your spell penetration already? Yes, a Cleric or Wizard with Spell Resistance will block most spells - it's also a level 5 spell, meaning that cleric or wizard is lvl 9 and pretty much likly to be as high a level as they're going to get, except in the odd Ogerbitt that gets to lvl 11/12.
If you want to be able to dispel/penetrate other spells, take the spell penetration and spell focus abjuration feats. Thats the price you pay for specializing in breaking other mages in PVP. You probably SHOULDN'T be able to beat a lvl 5 spell with generic consumables you can pick up for pocket change.
The true hard counter to SR remains a knife in the face. This is why Mages don't rule the world.
Spells domain doesn't give lesser dispel as a lvl 1 spell doesn't it? I thought blur only blocked lvl 1 spells.
THAT BEING SAID, the SR on certain monsters like Nightrisers should be reduced or removed. Why would a nation of Wizards, make their warrior undead slaves, RESISTANT to their magic?
Evard's has positive changes to it already (lump sum of damage and not small amounts adding up, does not take spellcraft into account for saves, ect) The SR change is a great thing and was needed.
As for the SR on creatures, it's typically in line with their CR and isn't a problem. As stated, take spell penetration if you want to be better at bypassing it. Also, don't forget about the dispel magic changes reducing SR for a time frame as well.
QuoteTHAT BEING SAID, the SR on certain monsters like Nightrisers should be reduced or removed. Why would a nation of Wizards, make their warrior undead slaves, RESISTANT to their magic?
You mean it doesn't make sense for the undead prisoner guardians of a bunch of locked up, dangerous wizards to have SR?
Quote from: GoblinSapperIf you want to be able to dispel/penetrate other spells, take the spell penetration and spell focus abjuration feats. Thats the price you pay for specializing in breaking other mages in PVP. You probably SHOULDN'T be able to beat a lvl 5 spell with generic consumables you can pick up for pocket change.
Why not? I can block Hold Monster with a Prot From [Alignment] potion. I can block Missile Storm with a Shield scroll. Hell, I've got lucky and taken off L4/5 spells with a blast of a Dispel wand before.
Quote from: GoblinSapperThe true hard counter to SR remains a knife in the face. This is why Mages don't rule the world.
Actually, SR is more like why they don't. Spell Resistance is a defence that ONLY protects from offensive casters. Spell resistance (the Spell) is a great defence against Spells that's given to classes with decent AB and AC and the means to buff that to be more melee powerful and avoid said knife, *not* to mages who rely generally on spells to deal damage.
Note that Spell Penetration is the only way other than "powerquest to greater levels than your target" to improve your ability to break SR, and you can't outlevel quest mobs to allow yourself to blast them. If you want to crack AC, you can hold on to AB boosting consumables or use Taunt, Entangling effects, or dispel off AC buffs. If you want to get past HP, boost your damage output, or hit the enemy with CON damage. If you want to get past spell-blocking defences, use Dispel or spam lower level spells to overload Insulation or Spell Mantle. There are temporary ways to deal with other defences, but no way to temporarily enable you to punch through SR when you need it, short of a single L4 Spell (Spell Breach),which is good vs the spell SR but useless vs several mobs with SR. Yes you could fire a AOE Dispel off a wand in the hope of lowering the group's SR, but then it has to get through their SR in the first place (with a CL of 3). Bit of a Catch-22, that.
Quote from: "GoblinSapper"Aren't there two feats that boost your spell penetration already?
Feats are a limited resource, and Spell Resistance isn't something you encounter often enough to want to burn a feat for a slightly improved chance to get past it, compared to using it on making the character effective or flavourful. So, when you do encounter it, it's frankly a right bastard. Consumables that would boost your effective CL for SR checks by a cost-dependent amount for a couple of rounds would give a mage a chance to slip a barrage of spells past, while remaining pointless for wand spamming as wands would still be low Caster Level. Efu has loads of consumables from Flame Weapon devices to widely available PfX/Insulate potions to let melee PCs deal with caster attacks or not need a buffer. What it's always needed is consumables specifically designed to help out mages in buffing their DCs/bypassing defences where the only other counter is "buff goon to knife them". We've gone some way towards that, but the few that exist are rare and multi use, rather than affordable one-shot things in line with the couple of Haste Pots every melee or ranged PC wants ASAP.
Quote from: GoblinSapperSpells domain doesn't give lesser dispel as a lvl 1 spell doesn't it? I thought blur only blocked lvl 1 spells.
Spells Domain gives Lesser Dispel as a L1 spell. Bards get Lesser Dispel as a L1 spell. Spell Immunity by Level is calculated on what level the caster fires it at, not the innate level. For example, Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Immunity all L3 and below spells) will block Fear from a Bard (who casts it at L3) but not from a Sorcerer, who casts it out a L4 Spell Slot. Blur will block a Lesser Dispel cast from a L1 slot from a Bard, but not from a L2 slot by a Cleric. I have no idea if using Meta-magic to shift the spell up a slot would change that.
It doesn't, I've cast empowered magic missiles at folks while they were blurred and it did nothing.
What egon said.
In EFU:A, and NWN in general there are tons of ways to empower a warrior-type of character. Buffs, buff potions/consumables, better weapons, items with bonus to their skills/abilities/stats, and of each of thouse there are a thousand options.
Mages don't have it so easy, there are three things they can get: either an offensive spell casting consumable, a permanently equiped +spellslot item, or some buff to WIS/INT/CHA. The first are usually aviable also to warrior kinds, and the second is rather strong and should be kept rare, while the third, unless it's a permanent buff, it's really meh, most of the time.
I would like to see some mage consumables, things that
-Extend the next spell you'll cast
-Give you +3 caster levels for the purpose spell progresion and beating SR for a short time.
-Make certian spell you cast slightly more powerfull
etc.
Hence my earlier sugestion of "additional spell reagents" Overhall i think it would make playing mages more fun, and ofensive mages would be more viable. But i'm likely biassed because in every single RPG i've played i always pick the mage.
Wizards already have it easier than every other class. You can do pretty much everything with a wizard. They get alchemy, good skills, Bonus metamagic feats every 5 levels, The ability to cast invis and leech XP to high levels, the ability to tank up with spells and rock the melee, the ability to be an offensive powerhouse by blasting away unsuspecting enemies before they have a chance to get defenses up, good skill cross-classing options with their generally high int, customized conjuration system on EfU:A, custom SCRYING if you go divination, counterspelling, etc.
The thing that makes them not utterly overpowered (okay, arguably they still are in some respects) relative to the other classes is that generally you can only do a couple of these things really well, instead of all of them. If wizards got a free bypass to spell resistance, you wouldn't have to focus on being the best offensive mage with your build to be the best offensive mage. The people who chose to build around tanking or maximizing lore or scrying people, heck even necromancers, could be just as effective at crushing SR opponents with offensive magic as the people who built specifically to be a powerhouse evoker.
What AKMatt said. Mages are very much specialists. And if they're not, it should be very much a Jack of All Trades, Master of None scenario.
An Evoker should take Spell Penetration feats as they specialise in dealing damage to foes. Allowing mages who specialise in other fields access to the same stuff for free dilutes the expertise of Evokers.
Very simply put, mages need to prepare. A warrior is always big, tough and carrying a weapon. A mage however is really a lot of the time a scrany guy in a robe who can dish out some serious damage when ready. Mages. Are. Powerful. Warriors can buff, but a wizard can floor you in a ridiculously short amount of time simply with haste and a barrage of spells. They do not need loads more things empowering them when they can already destroy entire groups of enemies in seconds.
On the original thing, changes are awesome. Long live change.
Suggestion idea: More drugs! Terran Brandy anyone? DC 19 on ingestion for addiction I believe it was. This example is only a +2, so nothing big, and comes with its side effects if you try to spam it like a consumable along with its addiction risk.
Terran Brandy: A potent alchohol, this magical drink is favored by heartless spellcasters of all types. This green liquid is distilled from the essence of dying fey.
Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to effective caster level for 1d20+20 minutes.
Secondary Effect: 2 points of temporary Constitution damage.
Side Effects: None.
Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in a 8-hour period, the user immediately takes 1 point of temporary Constitution damage.
Of course this is only really viable for ebul types. Just an idea that can be used as inspiration for something custom perhaps ^^
Quote from: xXCrystal_Rose;204976Suggestion idea: More drugs! Terran Brandy anyone?
Terran Brandy: A potent alchohol, this magical drink is favored by heartless spellcasters of all types. This green liquid is distilled from the essence of dying fey.
Initial Effect: +2 alchemical bonus to effective caster level for 1d20+20 minutes.
Secondary Effect: 2 points of temporary Constitution damage.
Side Effects: None.
Overdose: If more than one dose is taken in a 8-hour period, the user immediately takes 1 point of temporary Constitution damage.
Of course this is only really viable for ebul types. Just an idea that can be used as inspiration for something custom perhaps ^^
We've a forum for suggestions Crystal, otherwise, I likee
Pshh I know, but this is relevant to the current topic, which seems to have sortof hijacked the original topic!
I'd love the idea of scripted adiction with fortitude or will based DCs. Say, a drug that is a rather powerfull buff, but if you use it too often you have to make a low DC (11, 13?) or become adicted.
Adicted PCs would suffer a small ability penalty (-1 CON?) unless consumed often. It would give an awsome feeling and actual need for PCs to use them.
This all exists already Drakill Tannan.
Anybody up for potion addicts? Somebody addicted to haste or expedius retreat?
Dear DMs. Please, PLEASE make it so potions can be spiked with drugs. A Blur seller who literally addicts his clientele would be brilliant.
Egon, that is a great idea <3
At the same time though, the withdrawal effects suck as my pc has been forced to take drugs unwillingly and its not nice.
Perhaps a way to remove addictions with treatment, so that healers, Ilmateri PCs and such can offer to help addicts. I have no idea how long withdrawal lasts for. Addiction on a first use is fairly odd, but it's a better way than scripting a booze DC style system where you'd have to keep track of how many times each PC had taken drugs in the last week or whatever, and adjust the DCs accordingly. Have to say the EFU system's the best I've seen, as it can override Spirits effects on Alchemis't hooch, rather than relying on unique powers.
Also, 100 million Egon Points to anyone who makes a Bard based on Amy Crackhouse Winehouse now.
There's a will save (although it probably should have been will/fort) dependent upon the nature of the drug that determines whether you get addicted, and then for a drug-dependent period of time afterwards there's another chance to roll to become unaddicted during the course of withdrawal.
Drugs are basically like powerful potions in and of themselves, but we're definitely not interested in being able to spike normal potions with drugs for various reasons - we really don't want to force players to deal with the significant downsides of addiction if they are not interested in doing so.
How about making the count as poisen? Also it is a bit much to get addicted after just 1 use of said drugs imo.
On the other hand, Howland, the penalties from not using the drug when "Adicted" could be automatically removed after a certian time. The drawbacks could be well avoided if the PC who bought the drugged potions just said "Screw this!" dumps all the potions, and say, since he doesn't have a powerfull adiction (because he dumped them as soon as he realized they were drugged) it takes him 1 reset to be clear. In the meantime he just gets a minimal penalty, like, -1 DEX or something.
If such option was allowed, i'd say it couldn't be too bad. Plus it's an exelent way to start conflict.
I agree that people should not be forced to have to deal with the drug system/addiction. If you want the benefits/consequences, fine, but spiking peoples potions is not a good idea. You want to put stuff in people's potions, there's poison for that.
Will this addiction/withdrawl and benefit/downside system be applied to alcohol as well?
Quote from: Vlaid;205520Will this addiction/withdrawl and benefit/downside system be applied to alcohol as well?
you can become addicted to alcohol, as for benifits i know of none, withdrawel, experiment and see.
Also
Quote from: Disco;205448How about making the count as poisen? Also it is a bit much to get addicted after just 1 use of said drugs imo.
Heorin ftw
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;205548Heorin ftw
Well, sure, but my PC apparently just became an alcoholic after drinking a single beer. If that's intentional, it's a bit silly.
I don't think the drug system should be applied to alcohol. Ale/beer/wine/spirits are ubiquitous and frequently a part of social RP where nobody's even getting drunk, let alone becoming an alcoholic. If a player wants to RP an alcoholic, fine, but that should be their choice and part of their concept - I don't have any interest in doing so because I failed a will save on one glass of beer.
1) Very interesting, I like it.
2) I will have hard to time taking seriously any but really epic concepts on this. I doubt I will make any character that will have anything to do with it.
3) I don't get it. I still don't understand all of the changes to summoning that allows multiple summoning. I tested a wizard and chose a summoning theme and could not summon anything for more than two seconds as I had not enough points. I think I will survive without making any summoners.
4) I have no idea how this will affect me, probably not a big issue for me for this reason.
5) I never can get IG for more than 2-3 hours at a time and I only occasionally get to a high level so I probably will not be able to see the more rare quests, so my loss.
Party on mates
Joe dechu~
A lighter side to the topic of 'harsh consequences for ingestion of substances'...
Older d&d editions had a funny little chart called 'the potion mixing chart', which came into effect whenever a pc drank a second potion while a first potion was still in effect. Healing potions were not a problem because their duration was immediate, but anything that buffs you was.
A quick web search will find various versions of this chart for those curious. Perhaps the most amusing result was the massive no save explosion on ingestion...literally, your pc goes boom.
I'm not suggesting implementing this, it's more to illustrate how liberal the system has gotten about letting a player 'have a priest in their pocket'....and is why the fighter classes tend to dominate nwn. Can you imagine the carnage if this table were put into play on a fighter who's just quaffed his 12th buff in as many rounds? Amusing at a minimum.
On a partially related note the custom content of efu really enhances the utility of non-fighters in a variety of impressive ways, and such additions as a wizard actually having a spellbook are really very impressive.
My 2 penn'orth. Make the addiction check a random chance, not guaranteed. Regardless of Will, you'll have a good chance to dodge it it you're not taking the stuff regularly.
The drug addition seems really interesting, looking forward to seeing how the notion of being addicted is actually portrayed IG.
The other stuff means pretty much nothing to me, but I'm assuming it's all good!
Quote3 - Pretty much all temporary summons have been adjusted to be 1 HD now. This was done primarily to keep our invasion-quest from breaking with too many spawns as well as standard quests. Additionally, they've virtually all been tweaked in their abilities and powers. HPs, AC, saves, BAB, attacks/round, abilities, etc. should all be adjusted either manually or through scripting. However! Please keep an eye out for bugs or imbalances, and feel free to make comments in the exploitable bug reports forum. Note: don't trust the character sheet, it may be misleading.
Has this change also been made to animal companions and familairs? If not, are there plans to impliment these/similar changes with animal companions and familiars?
Currently there's no plans to do these changes to them.
Ah ignore this ^^ My insomniacs 8 wisdom strikes again.