I think we need to improve our experience for new players.
The problem is that often times we as DMs, who know most things, and have a very limited perspective, miss out on the big things that are problems for newer players.
And the thing about new players, is that often they will not report problems, or ask questions, but just leave if they get frustrated or confused.
So please keep an eye on things that you think might cause newer players to stumble, and suggest ways we could improve their experience.
Some things I suspect newer players don't always grasp -
- New players who try to quest alone, or run out into the wilds and immediately die to a stealthed jungle panther
- New players who don't get a sending stone, don't get involved with other players
- New players who get frustrated that they can not sell everything they find to merchants, or who get confused with the "Stolen" property item on objects
- New players who struggle to find basic gear, or get ripped off by our NPC merchants
- New players who get lost easily
- New players who, because of the efu phenomenon of people always using new player accounts, are mistaken for vets, and not really offered the helping hand that they should be offered
- Confusion about major mechanical changes (anything we need to explain better?)
- Outdated or confusing OOC info (is there any still?)
Comments from new or recently new players would be particularly welcome.
I see these posts pop up from the DM's side from time to time, and I always disagree with the necessity.
The moment the established playerbase sees someone stumbling around, they offer sincere help IC and OOC.
Hells, even when I got established on the server people still went out of their way to show me the ropes IC.
Things are great as they are, and the helpfulness of all the players is above and beyond the call of duty.
Very often within couple months, someone new has stumbled around, and when they've IC asked something, I usually have recognized if they are new or not. They have also either asked, or I've just straight away given advice or tips in those cases. I doubt there is a problem, as those that have little common sense, tend to also seek help, and I myself have no problem giving it if someone sends me a tell to ask for something.
OK. Taking on-board Paha and Coldburn's comments about all of us being decnet stand-up types who will help the new players out some things i think could assist:
- Have an NPC at the visitors centre giving out rusted chainmail / leathers / shields / weapons (Have it so you can only ask for three things out of the options - Basic Splint, Large Shield, Longsword for example). Whilst sometimes there is stuff in the chest, sometimes its empty. Getting a player at least basic kit would mean they can swiftly start the starter quests/team up and do stuff, making the first hour or so more fun and rewarding.
- Have the sending stone magically appear in your bag (a new magical side effect of the Ziggurat which Fredoc has developed).
- Have one of the Stygain Guards at the Main Gates fire a speech off about not travelling outside the city to any level 2's that go past (not sure if this would be easy to script)
- Have Nduru give players a IG document which is a form of "welcome pack". Could give IC help like DO NOT GO OUTSIDE THE GATES etc. I think people would more likely read that than OOC things. If not Nduru, put some bored looking bureaucrat/Stygain giving them out who is doing this menial task as a minor punishment...
I agree with the guys that most of us would always help loads but these may help a bit as well.
Some kind of a guideline to contacting DMs would be nice. That's something that frustrated me to no end: I spent hours on several days trying to get a DM to respond to me in game over various small things, when I had checked there was someone online. Finally players told me IRC was basically a necessity for communicating on EfU so I got into it. It would've been way easier if a DM had just told me in game that they were busy and that I should ask on IRC. Or it could be posted prominently on the forums. Nothing's more frustrating than complete silence.
In the same vein, it would be nice to know which DM to contact in which matters. I assume someone is in charge of forum maintenance, specific factions have dedicated DMs, there's a lead developer, maybe even someone who's considered a reliable authority on lore. But to this day, I have no idea which DM does what. Is there a Head DM who I could contact if I wanted to bring problems with the DMs to the entire team's attention, for example?
Other than that, I've found EfU relatively friendly and easy to get into. The forums and IRC are surprisingly full of trolling and flaming, but people in game tend to be nice enough. The purely game-related aspects of the server are easy to pick up from other players. It's the administrative and OOC stuff in general that I wish had been better communicated when I started.
Is there a way to get a link to the EFU:A forum board ( http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=overview ) to appear while IG on the server? If this is already happening, perhaps making it bolder so new people can see it. Without coming here you are completely in the dark while IG and will quit.
Personally, I tend to driect a newer player to our forum automatically. When i was first playing here, i didnt use the forums for at least a month or more. Because i didnt know they existed.
I think the sendign stone is a big thing. Maybe have a quest that gives like 10xp. that makes you get one.
Coldburn/Paha, it is true that often times many of our players are helpful, but trust me, it is a problem. The percentage of players who log in at the right time, who take the step to ask the right person, etc. is much smaller than the percentage of new players who just log in and run into problems and leave, never to return.
There is absolutely no doubt that at its best EFU is extraordinary, but it can be a hard road and I think some things could be done to make it easier.
Thank you for some excellent suggestions, Yalta.
Barehander - I'll make a post now that will hopefully address the issues you mention (thanks for bringing it to our attention).
Quote from: Farel Wolf;179770Is there a way to get a link to the EFU:A forum board ( http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=overview ) to appear while IG on the server? If this is already happening, perhaps making it bolder so new people can see it. Without coming here you are completely in the dark while IG and will quit.
Quote from: Equinox;179772Personally, I tend to driect a newer player to our forum automatically. When i was first playing here, i didnt use the forums for at least a month or more. Because i didnt know they existed.
Perhaps adding it to map name transitions... ie:
You are entering the Dock District (for more info go to www .escapefromunderdark.com)
A link to the forums/website is in lots of places IG. Journal and the start area, at the least.
Barehander, does this thread (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=179779#post179779) answer your questions?
We need more chilled quests, where it is long but spawns are not that much. EFUA has a harsh learning curve and for those unable to take the strain it is frustrating as hell, not to mention most people don't want to take noobs on quests as they usually end up being unable to help or just die straight away.
I know it's always said to be on the 'to do list' but UPDATE the webpage. Make it actually say what changes are made, correctly mind you, and also the factions as well. As a new player to places I often read the webpage first and if what is on the server doesn't match with what the webpage says it would throw me off alot.
Quote from: Howland;179781A link to the forums/website is in lots of places IG. Journal and the start area, at the least.
Things that make ya go; "
Hmm?"
Myself (way back when), Eq and the newb I talked to just last night (in tells) all missed these... w/e
I think having an NPC like that exiled Duergar that new players are forced to run into would help a lot. Have the uhh man with the tatoos and the axe say way more.
Yalta's suggestion of an NPC ICly telling people not to go to the wilds alone would be a good idea. It could be a stygian armada soldier on the same spot where samuel drake used to be on the gates. You could script it so when a level 2, 3 or 4 PC steps on the place just outside the transition, the guard would ICly "speak" with somthing such as
"You look too inexperienced to travel the wilds alone, you'll just get killed, come speak to me"
Then, in a better-made conversation, the styigian could ICly tell the PC why are the wilds dangerous, especially at night, how should he always travel with company if he intends to work for oters (quests) or simply explore the island, why he should get a ziggurat totem, that he should be doing errands to earn enough gold to buy decent equipment also saying that merchants will rarely buy most of the things he finds and so he is better off working to gain the gold, etc.
Another thing that could be made is an OOC placable in the OOC area that is large and bright and says "QUICK FAQ, READ PLEASE" and quickly (so lazy players read it too) answers some of this questions. Maybe having it speak too
"If you are a new player you should really read this, or esle chances are you'll die quickly and abandon the server"
Or something like that.
As for players being ripped off their gold trying to buy basic gear, that is defently a change to the merchants that must be done, have them sell basic armor (from paded to say, splint mail) at a decent price, so PCs aren't really "ripped off" when purchasing their armors
No, I agree that it sounds like we should make the link more prominent somehow.
I mean, it really is plastered lots of places (server description also I think? as well as multiple places in the start area...), but I don't doubt people miss it.
People will always miss it, though. It's a fact that even if you write something in huge blinking neon letters and stick it in the middle of the monitor, a good number of players will still not pay notice.
Anyway, that's a good post, Howland!
I think a lot of the information is out there, the problem may be the presentation. What about having an OOC NPC in the start area (the area you first log into when you create a new character) that is labeled something like "New Player Advice". I would have this NPC have a dialogue that goes over some things that are apparent to older players.
1. The wild areas (including the sewers!) are dangerous on EfU and should not be attempted alone. The red NPCs in the wilds are there to give the server a certain feeling. They are -not- there to level you, they are dangerous!
2. Quests are meant to be done in a group, if its a quest for more than one person its probably a combat quest and you need a good group.
3. The solo quests are meant to be done by one person and in general dont get you into to much trouble.
4. Right click and examine a NPC to see if they offer a quest, what the levels of that quest are, and how many players can go on that quest.
5. You see a lot of consumables offered on quests, thats for a reason. Quests on EfU often require using those consumables to survive the quest.
6. There are a lot of mechanics changes going on. Go to //www.escapefromunderdark.com to read up on some of them (especially if you are playing a cleric, mage, or bard).
7. Its a roleplaying server, the best way to get involved is to attempt to join up with a group of players IG. Recommend some DM factions (or create one or two) that are good for new players to get involved in and see the greatness that is EfU at its best.
I'm actually helping out a newbie right now, so I'll ask him the next time he logs in.
Well, as a recently new player I can tell you a couple things I'd like improved on for new players. For one, by this time a lot of new players really are old hats at NWN, and may not appear to be so "new" to the casual eye. However, these kinds of players also tend to decide quickly if they want to stay on EfUA, so they need to be snapped up quick.
One thing that really would help (that still confuses and surprises me at times) is having a better idea of the myriad of things possible here. There's' far more unique things that a character can achieve, whether through apps, or factions, or just through impressing DMs, than I've seen on any other PW I've played on. But to an extent, since I'm still being having my eyes opened on exactly what these things are oftentimes, I have no idea that I can actually work toward those kinds of things.
Of course it's impossible to sit down and list these things, nor would you want to if you could. But I think that if DMs see new players that impress they could hook them to stay on EfUA pretty easily if they gave them a little ingame attention early on, something that makes them realize that so much more is possible here than on most other NWN PWs. That kind of thing goes a very long way. People will stick around that much longer where maybe they get past the acclimation period, and EfUA scores yet another great roleplayer.
Quote from: putrid_plum;179784I know it's always said to be on the 'to do list' but UPDATE the webpage. Make it actually say what changes are made, correctly mind you, and also the factions as well. As a new player to places I often read the webpage first and if what is on the server doesn't match with what the webpage says it would throw me off alot.
THIS.
Here's my idea for helping to soften death for new players. Often death in the wilds leaves players annoyed and frustrated and it's not always easy getting help. Perhaps an NPC in the Pallid Mask Mausoleum who offers assistance to those who end up there. E.g. "hey you're awake, guess you must have had a nasty accident, come speak with me" offers a couple of free invis potions to recover your gear only for level 5 and under or something.
There's obviously a lot of little things that could help along new folks in familiarizing them with the website and style of EFU:A, and that is great that those things are or are going to be implemented.
Really, I think the best thing is alerting veteran players here that helping newer folks goes a long way, regardless of whether it's a PC or a DM. I know when I was new and people were actually going out of their way to help me I was genuinely impressed.
A simple tell to acknowledge who you assume is a new person, that you're more than willing to answer any and all questions to the best of your ability that they have, and to help them out, doesn't seem like much initially; but when a lot of people do it together the new player will obviously recognize this for the actually welcoming community it is. (even behind the jaded rude behavior of some IRCers and other mofos)
You can always at the least direct them to the right place to look or someone else anyways. (#efu: x is new help him/her usually seems surprisingly productive)
It's pretty cheesy, but it's just one of those 'do your part' things, in my opinion.
Quote from: Dirtskunk;179813the jaded rude behavior of some IRCers
Toning that down would help a lot. When I'm introducing a new player to the server, that is
always a huge turn-off.
Well, personally I do not think it's cool to have certain people to act a certain way just because you don't really fancy it, but can understand the impact it can have on new players. It is not really a specific group/person that does it. ;)
Regardless, as Howland said, despite this, people in the 'category' are more than willing to shape up to welcome a new person (usually). I think that ensuring a new player that a lot of the tomfoolery there is in complete jest and we are actually all talking about a game, meant to help each other have fun, helps a lot rather than forcing everyone to some sort of code of conduct.
Perhaps some sort of updated "IG Almanac" that would tell new players of the plots that are available for pursuits (and perhaps which faction to question about it), because navigating the forums and searching for relevant information can be a daunting task for a new player.
I also believe one should be quick to grab people up for various factions and plots, there's nothing that makes you feel quite like home if people are wanting your help with stuff, even if it's say, just a patrol of the city.
Also it might be beneficial to tell people (IC and OOC) where they can find other PCs hanging around (The Kingsman or the Wastrel aren't that obvious). I've been in contact with a few new players who simply cannot find other PCs to interact with, and that is probably the biggest turn-off there is.
I'd suggest having the start portals offer newbie info in the following way:
Are you a new player on this server?
Yes (go to new player guide)
No. (Go to are you ready to start your journey)
Are you ready to start your journey?
Yes
No
Did you want to see the New Player Guide again?
Continue to new player guide (launch it again)
No, I'll teleport in. (start)
Anyone skipping through in a hurry will be clicking the top option a lot, and hopefully bounce themselves back to the new player guide a couple of times, making them more likely to read it. Anyone actually taking the time to read it will be able to easily start. I tend to throw "Hi, are you new" tells to anyone using a base description, running around or looking clueless, and offer them a few tips, but a hard to miss IG explanation would go a long way.
Quote from: Divine Intervention;179810Here's my idea for helping to soften death for new players. Often death in the wilds leaves players annoyed and frustrated and it's not always easy getting help. Perhaps an NPC in the Pallid Mask Mausoleum who offers assistance to those who end up there. E.g. "hey you're awake, guess you must have had a nasty accident, come speak with me" offers a couple of free invis potions to recover your gear only for level 5 and under or something.
This is an exelent idea.
Have this trigger only once, and only if the player who died did so at levels 2-4. Furthermore don't give any XP loss when this happens, but have the NPC warn OOCly: "Next time you die, you will not be offered recovery gear, and you will loose a third of your total XP, wich may cause you to become one or two levels lower than you are".
This would certianly help a lot.
Once you get to that point though, many new players are already frustrated and leaving.
Honestly, the best responses I've gotten from new players always happens in Tells. Connect personally, and then connect through your character. Any way to facilitate hooking new players up with old players to teach them EfU basics like consumables, quests, even how to RP would be ideal.
Honestly, one of the biggest points raised earlier that has had serious unintended consequences of the absurdity that is the "new player account for each character" thing. On one hand, it helps the DMs hide amongst us more easily. On the other hand, I now end up offering every secret Kotenku account helpful advice for new players.
Jokes aside, it really does make it hard to have a community where people know each other and can help our "new faces".
Something that pushes a person towards the starter quests in the Mythaller room. Seriously, there's no direction there beyond "Speak to blahblahblah".
Some OOC explaination of quest givers too.
Quote from: Barehander;179766Some kind of a guideline to contacting DMs would be nice. That's something that frustrated me to no end: I spent hours on several days trying to get a DM to respond to me in game over various small things, when I had checked there was someone online. Finally players told me IRC was basically a necessity for communicating on EfU so I got into it. It would've been way easier if a DM had just told me in game that they were busy and that I should ask on IRC. Or it could be posted prominently on the forums. Nothing's more frustrating than complete silence.
In the same vein, it would be nice to know which DM to contact in which matters. I assume someone is in charge of forum maintenance, specific factions have dedicated DMs, there's a lead developer, maybe even someone who's considered a reliable authority on lore. But to this day, I have no idea which DM does what. Is there a Head DM who I could contact if I wanted to bring problems with the DMs to the entire team's attention, for example?
Other than that, I've found EfU relatively friendly and easy to get into. The forums and IRC are surprisingly full of trolling and flaming, but people in game tend to be nice enough. The purely game-related aspects of the server are easy to pick up from other players. It's the administrative and OOC stuff in general that I wish had been better communicated when I started.
This. +1
I am just now venturing into IRC after 1.5 years here.
If we're super busy we may not be able to respond, and, often, asking "Is there a DM online?" is not the best way to get a reply.
Even perfectly valid DM tells that actually have a purpose or a concrete question are often met with dreadful silence, even when DMs are on. This is fine since I know DMs are very busy and a lot of times something maybe I consider important isn't really, and other times there is just too much going on for a DM to care.
But what'd really help me, and would have really tightened my enjoyment of the server when I started, would be a simple "Can't, busy right now." or "Sorry, not now." or anything else, a simple response so one doesn't feel so ignored and unimportant. I know this must sound very silly and ya'll know I am silly like that, but still, any reply is so much better than nothing.
When there is no reply I am left to wonder- what'd I do wrong? Did I ask in the wrong manner? Maybe what I asked didn't warrant a response? I wouldn't know, and the mystery is oftentimes disturbing.
IMO Game design wise EfU/A fills a niche market of players that want the RP and a very high risk experience. At this point we are picking up a few new players to EfU/A or recycling old ones (like me). That said, I echo the needs to notify players is a very simple format and assist them on getting a character started with the pertinant information given up front, prior to starting IG. My suggestions:
Make the "starting area" two areas. The first with a small room, very simple, center statue with a welcome dialogue and stating that this is an RP server, and high risk of death.
You then leave via door to a long hallway, along which hallway are Educational Primers we already have set up, a man you can buy basic gear from (I would include basic armors, shields, weapons - nothing fancy), deity setter, etc. Placing them in a line along a hallway forces a new player past them in a linear manner, and ensures they have atleast walked past each station and each educational tablet we already have.
The starter quests are well linked around the Zig, I think that's very nicely done. I've got nothing else atm.
Beggars idea of a linear start area where people *must* go past certain points and speak to certain PC's sounds a good idea. It would only be a couple of minutes for those that know it already but could be invaluable for the first timers.
Beggar makes a good point. With the current setup people can go straight for the portals or equipment cabinet and miss all the other useful stuff around the area.
More equipment definitely. It's a lottery when you start, as sometimes junkpiles have a discarded halfplate or something, other times you're doing all the 2-5s in leathers on a 12 DEX fighter. I think that "Portal-Damaged" starting armors would be good. For example:
-2 AC Halfplate (5 AC +1 dex)
-1 AC Chainmail (4 AC +2 Dex)
-3 H/MS/Tumble Studded Leathers.
These would be perfectly serviceable for a few newbie combat quests, but rapidly become outdated due to their weight and low AC or high check penalty. I find a big issue when starting is getting the few basic bits of equipment, which is why I tend to make a couple of ideas for my next PC in advance, and do newbie quests/dumpster dives occasionally to arm them up. I was talking to a new player last night who tried to sell my PC Tainted Banded Mail. He genuinely thought that was good armor, as only Tobar sells anything better. If new players could always get their hands on the real basics, it would make it easier to learn EfU's loot progression and that you don't rely on NPC merchants.
EDIT: Actually, had another idea. How about dropping some newbie quests straight into the player's log? If they port in, give them the quests "Speak To Nduru" and "Speak to a Stygian Guard". You could get them on a newbie quest and deliver a scripted IC and OOC verbal warning about the wilds being dangerous.
"Portal Damaged" equipment sounds good.
The magic of the portal has ripped and damaged your previously prestine equipment.
Potentially a neat way to give a set of very basic stuff for free prior to character creation. Have some standard sets with leg and arm bits missing.
Quote from: 9lives;179883If we're super busy we may not be able to respond, and, often, asking "Is there a DM online?" is not the best way to get a reply.
It should be pointed out that new players to EfU:A are coming from servers where that is the norm. It took me about a year to learn to stop sending "Hey is a DM around?" into the DM channel, and that was only after a DM (it may even have been you!) informed me about IRC.
If Beggar's suggestion is implemented, one of the NPCs should explain that when DMs are in-game, they are 100% of the time doing something for other players, and the best way to catch an idle DM is through #efu.
Quote from: Howland;179756.
- New players who, because of the efu phenomenon of people always using new player accounts, are mistaken for vets, and not really offered the helping hand that they should be offered.
From my experience when I was brand new, I would guess this is true.
I still feel very new to the server at times because I see new characters, even just a few days old, involved in quests or plots or whatever that my character who may have been around for a while just misses. My char makes the only quest sending for an hour and like one person shows, and the rest of the server is somehow off doing awesome shit (in terms of questing). New characters getting to lvl9 when I've like never been able to do the high xp quests makes me think it is more of an OOC thing. I guess this could be one discouraging aspect of this cool server, unless I'm alone.
Improve the IRC culture! It's terrifying to new players.