EFUPW Forums

Quote from: Howland;177659You are welcome to make a new thread against the Perk system, it is a subject off topic in this one. Of course I make no promises that I will even read such a thread or bother to take the time to explain why the perk system is actually very cool and something most players are (and should be) happy that mort took a lot of time to implement.

Quote from: Mort;177687You proposed this (Healing Hands) and say CURRENT perks are overpowered?

Unbelievable... People see only what they want to see...

Quote from: Cerberus;177627Seeing the Drunken Haze (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40282%22) and Pathfinder (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177585#post177585%22) threads brings me back to this perks thread. Sorry, I tried to bite my tongue and stay out of it but I can't control myself...
 
In a nut-shell simply having these "perks" is considered overpowered. By overpowered I mean that any option that gives a higher value than is expected. Overpowered effects add or remove options, but do not fundamentally change the game.
 
Then there is bent options, or in this case "perks". Those perks that can actually change the way the game plays out by giving an advantage to advanced players over beginners. Advanced players can exploit overpowered options fundamentally changing the way the game is played between advanced players and beginners.
 
Last but not least there are broken options, which are options or perks that when combined with other options or perks make something unplayable, puts it into a loop or makes the word infinite appear.
 
I don't see any of these "perks" as broken but without a doubt they are overpowered. And based on the fact that 4 out of 5 druids recommend pathfinder (if it actually did what it said it does, +10% move rate in the wilds) would make it a bent option. Sorry but a 6th level PC of a certain class that mathematically has a +30% movement rate is beyond a doubt, "Bent". In most cases you shouldn't have that until at least 9th level. With that in mind beginner players could be taken advantage of.

All I did was post what the common definitions of overpowered, bent and broken. I didn't invent these terms or definitions, WotC did (they've been around for years).

If you want my personal opinion I actually kinda like the perks. I'm a firm believer in; As long as everybody is playing by the same rules, it's all fair. I feel it's a fine line between overpowered and optimized. Everybody tries to optimize their PC so no problems with me there.

The thing that I don't think you're hearing from me is that EFU:A (like all PW servers) has novice, intermediate and advanced players. I understand too that this is Howl's and the DM's world and we just play in it but the rest of the world tries to keep everybody in the same playing field. On PW servers these same player levels (novice, intermediate & advanced) all play together. The more options given to the advanced players the more unbalanced the player environment becomes. I'm an intermediate player at best. Although my minds eye can see the ways to optimize my PC fairly well, I fail at computer knowledge and all the little tricks, (I'm still trying to figure out where ya'll get all the gold some toss around :oops: ).

Here is what I'm seeing with Morts "perks" (that I like)/(I'm not against them, I'm just questioning the playing balance)... Some perks are way more popular than others. What I would ask is why? Are they being bent? Is it going to make the advanced players have even more superiority over the intermediates, (not to even mention the novice)? Is it going to make the intermediates like myself that already lose in PvP have even less chance to at least hold my own? I'm not complaining about being an intermediate level player, I'm patting the advanced players on the back and giving them kudos. I'm saying the more options you add to the server is going to take away from the role-playing by unbalancing the player levels more than they already are.

I'm just digging myself a hole here. I said my piece and will continue to enjoy the role-playing here and try to keep biting my tongue when it comes to anything that isn't IG/IC.

You make a good case. Role Play over Build anyday.

It's not hard to see (or ask) what perk would be good/suitable for your PC. I don't really see the problem, none of them are overpowered.

Let me try this...

You have a little league baseball team a minor league team and a pro team all playing on the same field. Now say you change even something as silly as saying you now each get four strikes instead of three. By doing this you just shut down the little league players and made the minor league players fairly pointless because the major league players, by getting that one more pitch, have a much greater advantage.

What isn't considered overpowered to the advanced player could be out of the ballpark to the little leaguer and a disadvantage to the minor league player.

I think he's trying to say that the perks make the game more complicated. But really compared to most of nwn's quirks they're fairly simple and effect very little.

lol

Well, just so we understand ourselves right, i suggested a change in drunken haze because it did absolutely nothing, nor mechanically nor RPwise. I did so because taking that perk is as good as taking no perk from both a RP and PG point of view.

Even if the perk was the weakest one, but made a visual animation that made the PC look reaaaaly drunk, or revitalized when drinking alcohol, i'd be happy.

I thought Drunken Haze was really good when I took it. Play a drunken wizard and you never have to buy healing again.

I mean, just imagine if it wasn't there at all. There would be nothing to complain about. Then you would think all the other perks were awesome. Then somebody would want to play a drunken monk, and they'd ask for that perk. Then we'd be having this conversation all over again.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

What I'm saying is...

QuotePlanar Lock:
You’re able to sustain the link of your summoned servants to the prime material realm longer than most.
- Bonus: +20% summon duration (also affects charges from items).

The novice player will see this perk and say; "Cool, my critters will stick around longer."

The intermediate player (like me) is going to say; "Cool, if I make a sorcerer and give it one level of cleric and animal domain and maybe a spell feat of (pick one) I'll have a hell of a summoner."

The advanced player is going to say the same thing as the intermediate player and figure out how to include the summoning themes and those sands and eggs and dead fish (and probably other things I can't think of and get told to FOIG) and bend themselves a PC that would make my head tilt.

Quote from: CerberusThe intermediate player (like me) is going to say; "Cool, if I make a sorcerer and give it one level of cleric and animal domain and maybe a spell feat of (pick one) I'll have a hell of a summoner."

lol wtf why would you think that?

Quote from: Winston Martin;177731lol wtf why would you think that?

Thanks for proving my point WM.

There is nothing wrong with putting forth an argument that something is overpowered, or too weak.  Unfortunately people tend to respond as though that argument is an insult against their friends, family, and dead great grandmother.

I'm going to put on my robe and wizard DM hat and say this concern is 100% valid. Balance isn't my ballpark, I just jump when I'm told to (if I can be arsed), and so can't comment on whether the specific examples (Drunken Haze and Pathfinder) are too strong compared to alternatives, but you have to question why it's IC for so many druids (who get tracking very late) to suddenly walk faster in the wilds, and why we've seen so many new fat characters lately.

I don't mind arguments about whether one perk or another is overpowered (arguments that they are underpowered strike me as silly and kind of missing the point, but make these arguments if you wish), what I strongly disagree with is an attack on the entire system on the basis that is in some way unfair to beginner players. The powers these perks grant are in most cases relatively minor, even if some of them may be complex to understand - and it is already the case that NWN/EFU has a steep learning curve, things like.... figuring out how to quest, what quests are good to do, what loot drops where, what the spells do, what the potions do, how to find others to quest, what monsters do what, what spawns are where.... and dozens of other examples... already tilt the game against the new player. You are absolutely right that there is a steep learning curve here, but it's something that can be figured out and the solution is not to simplify the game but rather be super friendly to new players and help them.

But if anything I have no doubt that things like the perk system are more of a draw to new players, something neat to show off and show how in this world they have more stuff to play with than in default NWN.

It's also not as if beginner/new players are being thrown to the wolves and expected to PvP against hardened level 10 veterans all the time. Certainly PvP happens, but coming from the perspective of someone who actually know how these things go -

It is very rare for people to lose a PC to PvP prematurely. Almost all FD PvP events I can think of that happened in the past months happened between experienced vet players who knew mechanics well enough.

People tend to default to subdue, thankfully, and only FD when the situation warrants - which makes me happy, of course.

Every game and every NWN server has a learning curve. It's an action game you role-play in, or a role-playing game within the frameworks of action mechanics. The learning curve is what keeps the action aspect interesting. If I knew everything and couldn't get better, I'd probably grow bored and move on. The same goes for RP, which is why pure action servers are not interesting. The game has to engage me on every level.

That's why it's good that it's more complicated and offers more alternatives, even if you don't understand them as a newbie.

I'm not even going too get into all the examples I could give on player skill balance. I will say though that I (and other players out there, that I know exist) are intermediate players and know we will never be more than that based simply on who we are and our gaming skill. Things like these perks, no matter how cool they are or how much of a draw people might think they could be... They are also segregating the players by skill levels even more than they already are.
 
Basically my 6th level PC should not be getting mugged by the advanced players 5th level PC simply because he has better gaming skill than I do. Yet there you have it, he can push the buttons faster, knows the tricks and knows the payout quests better (so has better items) and can reach level 10 in a week, that I (and others) have never done at all, so he gets to mug my higher level PC and there is nothing I can do about it because it's only when a 10th level PC mugs a 4th level PC that the DM's understand segregation and say, don't do that.
 
Anybody ever hear the saying the rich get richer? That's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the advanced players getting more cool toys to play with while I'm still trying to figure out how summoning themes work and where to get enough gold to become a noble or whatever title it is.
 
Maybe it's just time for me to retire from my gaming-geekdome. I guess I just can't keep up anymore. [Cranks his O2 to max, grabs his walker and shuffles away... .. .]

Relax a bit :)
 
We all improve with PVP and against NPC when you play more and do both more.
 
Some people are just "better" at somethings than others. But the great thing about this game is that every circumstance is different, from your allies, to if you have the element of surprise.
 
I think i have an average record at PVP. Win some lose some. But even the really great PVP'rs, can lose every now and again.
 
Perks wont win or lose anyone anything. In my time i have seen seemingly "invincible" PC's humbled by a surprise attack, an unlucky roll or just pure numbers against them. No perk would have saved them.
 
For me they are exactly what they say they are... a perk.

I don't think that high level PCs picking on 5th or 6th level PCs is a huge issue, and as far as I've seen when it does happen the low level PC is almost always let go with a minimum of looting, etc.

It is true that some people are better at the game than others, but that's generally due to a long time spent playing. This is true with any game though -- if you go play Modern Warfare 2 and there are players who've been playing the games for years and put a lot of effort into becoming astute about the mechanics and 'tricks' of the game, they'll beat you. That doesn't mean that you can't put in the same effort and also get good at the game.

That some perks can be used in combination with the other existing mechanics to make them more useful is true true. I think most of the perks are transparent enough in themselves and that mechanically adept players can figure out ways to make them better -- I don't think that this breaks the game, though. Everyone else can also figure out how to use them 'optimally', and so the playing field is level in that respect. The perks exist primarily to give more colour to PCs as I understand it, and it's an excellent system to do just that.

PvP likely isn't the problem -- it has always been the case in my own experiences that when I have come into conflict with players who I know are better than I am at mechanics, I know full well that there's a strong possibility that I will lose. That's fine, there are people who are better at the game than I am.

For anyone, making allies, getting supplies and some common sense means that they have a good chance of winning -- there are quite a few occasions when I've seen strong players or parties losing to the underdog in a PvP on both EfU and EfU:A. It's not just skill, a fair amount of luck is also involved.

To say that a PC can become unbeatably strong in a week is an exaggeration. It takes time, but if some put more time in than others, they will naturally become stronger.

cerberus you are being absurd. it is really misguided to just classify players into 'intermediate' and 'advanced.' if you have a specific productive question about pvp or anything else i'm willing to believe most are willing to answer it and help you succeed. generally people lose their beginning pvp conflicts but learn as they go on. all i do is click potions and hope i win and it goes pretty good usually

Quoteif you have a specific productive question about pvp or anything else i'm willing to believe most are willing to answer it and help you succeed. generally people lose their beginning pvp conflicts but learn as they go on.

Yup, exactly.

Yes, as derf said- perhaps instead of ranting, you could consider asking someone to show you some shit? Teach you how to PvP? What potions to use? In what order?

Study nwn.wikia.com for what certain spells do? And what the classes get? What are their advantages/disadvantages?

And the perks are what they are - some grant you minor powers, some grant you fun addition to RP. For example- how the hells BLOODY MESS is useful, the XP bonus it gives is absolutely -minor-, you dont even notice it and it just basically gives a fun SPLAT effect.

The CANNIBAL perk- how OFTEN will you benefit of it?

The one that gives you d4 gp after resting.

And the list goes on and on.

It's supposed to be a damned fun addition to what your PC represents itself.


And yes, the matter of luck. It's a d20 system. 1-20 luck range. A level 3 PC wielding a scythe can kill a level 10 PC if he scores a lucky crit, hello?  One of my PC's once got insta-fugued, a level 8 barbarian, having 60/100 HP and drinking a CSW pot- got triple critted by 3 orc berserkers Attacks of Opp.

I'd be happy to help you out with any questions you may have, Cerberus. I'm not some PvP master, but I've come a long way from my newbie days.

Quote from: LulzebubI'd be happy to help you out with any questions you may have, Cerberus. I'm not some PvP master, but I've come a long way from my newbie days.

Same, not the best but irc me about sorc/cleric summoner or anything really.

Cerberus, if you want to learn how to smash quests for supplies and XP, the best way is to get in on a faction. Be it PC or DM, they all will have (at least) one Shameless Bloody Powergamer who you can learn from :D. If you want to learn PVP, well you have two options. I've ran some characters that were big on brawling and low-grade PVP in order to get more of a feel for conflict, but I also played on a server for that express purpose. A few EfU players I know learned basic PVP skills by playing for a bit on a dueling server one of us ran. We imported old EfU PCs of ours, loaded them up with  EfU-grade consumables and beat each other up until we got the idea.

few thoughts

My thoughts,
 

QuoteBasically my 6th level PC should not be getting mugged by the advanced players 5th level PC simply because he has better gaming skill than I do. Yet there you have it, he can push the buttons faster, knows the tricks and knows the payout quests better (so has better items) and can reach level 10 in a week, that I (and others) have never done at all, so he gets to mug my higher level PC and there is nothing I can do about it because it's only when a 10th level PC mugs a 4th level PC that the DM's understand segregation and say, don't do that.

 
I would say the mugging is down, especially when I recall certain axe wielding docks thugs who are no longer around. That said groups are key.  There are always certain players who make uber char, but each time they do with in two days I hear about 3-5 pcs talking about killing said pc.  Get a bodyguard or a group if your concerned.
 
 

QuoteAnybody ever hear the saying the rich get richer? That's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the advanced players getting more cool toys to play with while I'm still trying to figure out how summoning themes work and where to get enough gold to become a noble or whatever title it is.

It's a real simple logic, knowledge + time=gold. Some people become merchants, but again you can't be a merchant for 2 days and expect a fortune.  Some people brew potions, but you need big orders, which means time standing around just waiting. There are more creative means including questing all day long, mugging/pickpocketing etc.
 
Few, if anyone is becoming a patrician in a day, but a handful of people have the forumla down to hit it in a handful of days.  If you do one quest a day though, and no other gold efforts, do not be surprised if you only have 100 gold in your purse.
 
The rich/richer argument is moot because honestly the most prominent pcs die in a matter of months usually. (A few noteable expections.)
 
There are always the powerful and the not. Someone will always be more powerful then you. There are tricks of the trade, and yes some people master them.  However alot of the powerful items out there are given for excellent rp, and characters that last.
 
but people will always be richer, more powerful or better at pvp. I mean like real world, even if your a millionare, there's a billionaire out there. If you can't find your niche and be happy, it becomes troublesome.

I don't recall winning a Pvp. I don't know the perk list by heart, nor what weapon does the most damage or what is the critical multiplier of such and such weapon.

Just pick stuff you want to play because you're having fun with it. Powerbuilds for the sake of crushing quests, useless mechanical pcs just to fool around, 18 CHA warriors because, hecks you're a leader, etc. I've hooked on quests trains to get to lvl8 in 4 days, i've cried 'Potions for sale' for a year back in UD. I've been having fun, never been really 'server moving', but just playing the game.

Bottom line is, whatever rocks your world doesn't need mechanical knowledge. Perks, feats, abilities are there to describe your PC, not to check if you'll be better than mr next guy.

Sure, mechanical builds will survive more, but so what if you get fugued? You just respawn, *emotes headache*start again. Was it Pvp? Pvp attitude is great nowadays: subdual, few FDs, nice RP... Just don't worry about it. Personnally i enjoy far more a good PvP loser than a OMG-it's always the same- PvP winner. Besides, if you're not a loner, your buddies will raise you.

I do admit it took me some time to get to that point where 'I don't care at all about getting fugue' was ringing true to my ears. But hecks, when you get there, you enjoy the game so much more!

Just chill out about mechanics, dying and PvP.

Else you're just running after something you'll never be able to catch: having a more powerful PC than EVERY OTHER out there. It won't happen. (except Toad ;) ).

What might happen is that your PC will make friends/allies/teams that can crush anything on their path... at one given time. But the wheel turns, always.

Patrician in a day? Easy. Get 5 faction buddies to hand over their coins, and boom patrician at lvl4. Teamwork rules.

Quote from: off topic NOTE:A bit off topic, but to those that made the offers of help...
Thank you.
 
I wish it were that kind of help I needed to make me able to play better mechanically. I didn't want to go this dirrection ~but~ based on how long I've been IG pushing keys on a keyboard and how much RP typing I've been doing would determine how fast or slow my arthritic fingers will respond at any given time. It isn't that I don't know how to optimize a PC or what buffs to use, it's just that sometimes I dont hit the drink healing potion until it's to late (it sux when your brain works faster than your fingers). So like I said, I am now and always will be considered an intermediate level player at best. There is no helping it. And you can only take so many alieve at a time...
 
So yeah, thanks for the offers of assistance, (which I have asked for and received in the past btw). Matter of fact RwG is going to teach me how to play an evil PC one of these days (when he gets back and the Seraphim thing is over). Point is, I do ask for and receive help wwhen needed.

NWN is a good choice then, as it is one of the slowest games in existence that isn't "turn" based per say. Actions are taken into account over a period of six seconds. In any other game thats a life time.

Once you learn how to issue commands in those six second heartbeats you'll be a lot better off.

Make all perks grant no mechnical bonus but a visual effect IMO.

While I find the perks really amazing and cool, I don't actually use any perks on my character because I'm a tad too lazy atm to select one of them, and I may as well add that I've had my share of PvP and can probably be assigned to your last group. The perks aren't important and not at all unbalancing to swap the odds between a win or a loss, or anything else for that matter. They just add some flavour to the vanilla NWN! Sleep a night over everything, and come back anew and refreshed to play some more with those that you've come to like.