While higher level summons are supposed to be stronger, i find it that fire elementals are actually worse as they go up. They gain massive damage, but that is worthless considering their AB becomes too little.
The reason? it's called power attack.
Level 1 elementals have 4 AB and deal 1d8 + 3 + 1d4 damage. Wich is quite a lot, level 3 elementals have 3 AB and 1d8 + 8 + 1d4 damage, wich is a fuckload, except that they never hit the target in the first place, taking into accound how more valuable a level 3 spell slot is compared to a level 1 spell slot, it is a waste of a spell.
I mean, they do increse their HP, but they still are terrible tanks with their 12 AC. I don't complaina about that though, leave that as it is.
Most of the elementals suffer from power attack and it could really stand to be removed from all of them imo.
Doing this is actually not as easy at it sounds... these elementals use a different system from other summons.
Out of technical curiosity, why is it difficult?
Could they be modified then? maybe reducing their STR to 10 (they have 18 ) but incresing the AB by 9, that way they would have the same AB with only +1 Damage while on power attack.
Also, out of curiosity, are summons meant to be balanced?
Balancing summons has always been an issue and caused a lot of discussion. I don't think you'll see them fully balanced until someone decides to spend hours going through them all one at a time to do that. At the moment though they aren't very close due to true sight, dispels and DR, or whatever other things they have they people despise at the time.
Summons aren't intended to be equally good, no. But they should have an appropriate balance in the context of the server as a whole. Summons that are too strong, or too weak, should be brought to our attention.
The elemental ones are difficult to adjust because actually they work differently, in that a base form is just "leveled up" I believe rather than there being a unique blueprint for each level/kind.
Hmm, well because i noticed the undead summons are incredibly powerfull, but the fire elementals are rather weak in comparison.
Also, when comparing the fire to the air elemental summons, air is the exact same + 50% concealment.
But that is another suggestion.
Back on topic:
I guess i'll leave it up to you if you want to make the new blueprint. I'd apreciate it althouhg i'm sure you have other priorities.
Oh, well, feeling>Mechanial power anyway.
define
You should define, strong vs weak.
For example. Undead have a variety of mental buffs and immunities to backstab that already make them useful. So which ability are you referring to? Damage? Etc?
I know a few conjurers who argue that do to magical damage elementals are the strongest summon option.
Other summons, such as shadows, offer alot of damage but have no real hitpoints.
Not all summons are meant to charge the enemy in swarms. Just like rogues, warriors, and mages each summon has it's own use I've found in my own experience.
Quote from: ForsakenSunlight;171982For example. Undead have a variety of mental buffs and immunities to backstab that already make them useful. So which ability are you referring to? Damage? Etc?
I know a few conjurers who argue that do to magical damage elementals are the strongest summon option.
Other summons, such as shadows, offer alot of damage but have no real hitpoints.
Not all summons are meant to charge the enemy in swarms. Just like rogues, warriors, and mages each summon has it's own use I've found in my own experience.
A single undead could fight against 5 trolls and not die, he had an aura of fear that made the run in panic.
A single elemental of the same level deals 20 damage, then dies. (if aginast 2 trolls, 5 would be just dead on the first round)
If we wanted to make them somewhat equal, the elemental would need a huge lot more of AC, (it has 12 ATM) and some sort of DR, while having enough AB to deal sufficient damage to the trolls. Something like 18 AC, 10 AB and DI 10%.
Fire elementals are certainly one of the weakest summon themes, they're good only at dealing heavy damage to low ac targets.
True, their HP is not too high, it would not be a problem but they have nearly no AC. That they have tumble does help them a lot because a singe AoO usually kills them (level 1) but if the enemy decides to target them, it's pointles: the summon is dead. They are also slaughtered by any archers: 2 or 3 rounds, and the archers killed the elemental, due to the low AC. Their AB is fine at level 1, at level 2 it becomes +7, wich is also good, but at level 3 it remains +8, not enough, considering you're chaning a fireball for that summon. The damage remains the same after level 1, with the addition of +1 DMG from STR.
They just don't scale well.
Currently, the AC remains the same, i would say 12 AC is fine for level 1, 15 AC would be nice for level 2 and 17 AC for level 3. Not enough to tank, but will help them survive a few more rounds. Some DI (5% or 10%) would be good so that they survive archers for a bit longer.
The AB should also be incresed for level 3 summons, it is but 1 point higher than level 2 summons. +10 sounds resonable considering they are ofensive summons and their damage doesn't change. I'd love to see some flavourfull abilities on them, such as casting comburst on the enemies, or an aura that sets enemies on fire much like the effect that happens with the fire elemental bond perk.
If level 4 summons turn out to be just +20 HP +2 AB, i'm going to cry.
Reason they suck is because of power attack. I had the same problem with air elementals. The power attacks just makes them useless more often than not.
Couldn't this be fixed by granting the elementals +5 ab -5 damage that way if they don't attack with their power attack they do like no damage anyway and since they auto go into power attack mode the bonus would be +0 +0.
Lol. If the people above read this :
QuoteThe elemental ones are difficult to adjust because actually they work differently, in that a base form is just "leveled up" I believe rather than there being a unique blueprint for each level/kind.
What howl is saying is that the elementals were implemented via hackjob shortcut, using a levelup function rather than making separate blueprints like most of the other custom summons are. What this means is they have no control over what feats the summon will have when it takes the levels (Unless they make custom package.2das and tweak the levelupfunction to go off them, which might work but I'm not sure, but would also be about the same amount of work as making blueprints for each level.) So changing these summons would require at some point a minor rework of how the summoning system is implemented to either use blueprints for the elementals or to take the new 2das into account.
Given the amount of tedious and repetitively mindless work involved and knowing how much our friendly DMs like the prospect of such - this prob is not likely to happen any time soon. :(
Hmm, could the base elemental be modified then?
If we leave them at 11 STR, then they won't be able to take power attack as a feat on level up, not even when they get the +1 STR from level 4.
In exchange, the base elemental should get +3 AB and damage on it's creature weapon, making them nearly the same as they where before, just without power attack.
One could also increse their DEX to 14, so they would have a decent 15 AC.
DMs would only need to change the base model, no need for further scripting.
Following scruffy's advice, i'll bump this and add, that even if what i said above was done, the fire theme would still be terrible. This comes after experimenting with summoning reagents, and realising how powerfull other summoning themes are.
They are really terrible.
Please do something about them ><
Oh, i hear air is terrible too btw (even though when compared to fire, they are trice as powerfull)
Air elementals suffers the same disease of Power Attack.
I find that suggestion about lowering their strenght (so they cant pick PA at lvlup) reasonable!
I think monsters can ignore pre-requisites
Making a list of all the problems by fire elementals:
1.- Their low AC and low HP makes them useless in any situation where there is an archer. A single brood keeper kills a level 1 elemental in 2 rounds max. And a level 2 elemental won't last over 4. That the AI forces the elemental to attack the nearest target and not defend agains the archer (no matter how much you tap the control tool) also makes them worthless against archers.
2.- Their low AC and low HP makes them totally unable to resist even few rounds within melee range. Even level 3 elementals last little rounds when they are targeted by anything. Because of this, elementals need a tank in front of them before daring to engage any monster, or they will be useless. Because monsters seem to target the weakest target first, this doesn't always work.
3.- If they activate power attack, they won't hit anything.
So basically, for them to work they need.
1) For there not to be any archers
2) For a tank to be reciving the hits before they enter combat
3) To succed the tumble check not to provoke an AoO
4) Not to be targeted by the monster
5) Not to activate power attack
And even then they are not very awsome.
It particulary worries me that they are so terrible vs archers. Fire elementals are agile creatures, i think giving them some extra DEX to increse the AC would be good. Their current AC is 12, air elementals have 16, but since fire doesn't have 50% concealment, incresing their AC to something like 18 would be good. A bit more of HP would not be bad either, 1 or 2 more hitpoints per level would make a diference, especially when combined with this more-less decent AC. They would still be terrible tanks, but wouldn't die. The AoOs are still an issue, but tumble takes care of it, i would raise it to 10 though.
As for their AB, if they can skip requirements, why not give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon? That way they would always activate power attack, but it wouldn't make any diference.
Also, giving them some feats might help. Dodge, mobility, defensive roll, deflect arrows, spring attack, etc.
I also think the BAB progression is too weak, i belive the alip level 3 summon already has 2 attacks per round, but the elemental waits untill level 4 to have the second, at +5. Maybe further incresing the levels 1 or 2 so that a level 3 elemental already has the second attack per round would be good?
Just some ideas. But the ideal thing would be for each to have their own blueprint.
I'm bumping this. Fire elementals are still less usefull in combat than a chair.
Raise their AC from 12-18
Give them -5 DMG + 5 AB to make up for power attack
And give them movility.
And they will be decent. Not much work to do, either.
A house cat could deal more effectively with orcs than fire elementals do. I will be forever disturbed by the fact 2 level IV summons can't go through the tangled woods and live by the end of them.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;173434I'm bumping this. Fire elementals are still less usefull in combat than a chair.
This is a clear argument for that Summoning theme: Furniture mentioned on another thread.
I was actually thinking about that when i wrote it...
Serioulsly though, fire elementals are very lame. VERY. People complain about air elementals and in comparison, they are awsome. After seing what the undead theme can do, i can't fathom how fire elementals can be so incredibly weak.
There are tons of ways to improve them that could make them unique. Removing power attack and adding some AC would be good, but if they had more HP and elemental shield that would make sence, and would make them quite usefull as non-tank damage dealers.
I don't think you grasp the scope of why they suck so much.
Every other summon theme uses a blueprint resref, so there is a specific template for each level of summon for each other theme.
The elementals only have one template for the level one, then they are leveled up by a script, which (apparently?) nobody has bothered to make any levelup packages for (WTH, SCOTTYB), which is pretty much like hitting the 'recommended' button when you level up.
Solutions being :
Someone takes the time to make a bunch of package .2das and change the summon script to reflect these 2das.
Someone makes a blueprint for each level of summon for each of these 4 themes.
Both of these solutions are really tedious and take a lot of time, and if you haven't noticed the laziness of most of the DMs who have the know-how/ability to do so... I am willing to bet this doesn't happen anytime in the next year.
I do know all that. That is why i suggest the level one summon to be modified, so level 2, 3, 4 & 5 are too, and even if they will still be weak, they won't be terrible as they are right now.
1)Raise their DEX from 8 to 18 and give them +2 tumble. They are supposed to be agile creatures and that gives them a decent 18 AC.
2)Raise their CON to 16 so they have a bit more life.
3)And give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon to get rid of power attack
That can't take more than 20 minutes! And it will make them last enough in combat to deal some damage, and also make them able to hit something even though they use power attack.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;173911I do know all that. That is why i suggest the level one summon to be modified, so level 2, 3, 4 & 5 are too, and even if they will still be weak, they won't be terrible as they are right now.
1)Raise their DEX from 8 to 18 and give them +2 tumble. They are supposed to be agile creatures and that gives them a decent 18 AC.
2)Raise their CON to 16 so they have a bit more life.
3)And give them a +5 AB -5 DMG weapon to get rid of power attack
That can't take more than 20 minutes! And it will make them last enough in combat to deal some damage, and also make them able to hit something even though they use power attack.
This seems like a solution to me. Is there a problem with it that I can't see?
Yes Omma. This whole push for +5AB -5DMG weapons instead of power attack would make elementals capable of bypassing -every- sort of damage reduction currently in game. Making them extremely powerful against... blur, lycanthropes, and a plethora of other mobs.
I have read the entire thread, but I might have an interesting suggestion.
Modify Fire Elementals so that when they're struck they do 1d4 or so fire damage to the attacker with a 15% chance (with each strike) that the attacker will combust into flame (as per the Combust spell).
Then give them a decently high AC so that individuals with multiple attacks / those who attack quickly, don't accidentally suicide themselves on them. (After all, it should be rather hard to physically hit fire, right?)
This would make them rather useful in certain situations, which IMO, is what summoning is all about: finding the right summon or combination of summons for the job.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;173947Yes Omma. This whole push for +5AB -5DMG weapons instead of power attack would make elementals capable of bypassing -every- sort of damage reduction currently in game. Making them extremely powerful against... blur, lycanthropes, and a plethora of other mobs.
hmm.. is there no way to add AB without the DR piercing?
Maybe if you give them a Dex of 30, but -2 AC and remove their bonus, and give them weapon finesse and -5 damage.
BUT
I like meldread's suggestion too.
Quote from: Meldread;173954I have read the entire thread, but I might have an interesting suggestion.
Modify Fire Elementals so that when they're struck they do 1d4 or so fire damage to the attacker with a 15% chance (with each strike) that the attacker will combust into flame (as per the Combust spell).
Then give them a decently high AC so that individuals with multiple attacks / those who attack quickly, don't accidentally suicide themselves on them. (After all, it should be rather hard to physically hit fire, right?)
This would make them rather useful in certain situations, which IMO, is what summoning is all about: finding the right summon or combination of summons for the job.
I am not sure if that was trolling or not...<_<
But anyways, can't you just remove power attack from Summon Monster 1, which would then take it away from all the others, since it levels up? That would take care of the only problem I see, the -5 ab with an already shitty AB. That would solve all of the problems, since summons should not be too powerful, but not incredibly useless either.
No, they can't. Fire elementals take it on level up anyway.
And they do need some AC at least, any archer means the elementals will become useless.
Over AC I feel it'd be more reasonable to give them a minor damage shield.
Nope. That wasn't trolling. :p
I just believe that summoning should involve some tactics. Some summons are better at certain things than others. DM's said that they couldn't fix the power attack thing, and so I offered an alternative suggestion. >_>
I mean, really it makes sense ICly. If you're going to melee attack fire - it's hot. You burn yourself. In addition, if you aren't careful, you could catch something you're wearing on fire (combust).
It's not over powered in PvP since in most cases you're going to ignore the summons and go after the summoner; and if that isn't possible you could always drink a simple potion of resist elements negating all of that fire damage. In PvE it makes it useful on quests.
A summon III fire elemental with 35 HP, 18 AC, 1d4 fire damage shield, and 0 BAB or so (due to power attack)... that only lasts one or two battles doesn't seem that over powered to me. >_>
In the mighty words of exilestrife and scottyb :
Quote from: ScottyB;104769We don't do half-assed jobs here.
Why suggest cheap workarounds when they don't actually solve anything? If they're going to do anything about these summons, they're almost def going to take the time to do it right, lest they face the fury of the nerds responsible for server upkeep.
As for meldread's suggestion, i personally like it. I can actually think of a few abilities that could make them usefull that i'd love to see implemented, but i'm trying to offer a quick fix here, so it can be done soon.
30 DEX + weapon finesse
-5 Damage and -4 AC
Quick fix, and i really don't see a problem with it.
Else
Add:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Aura_of_fire
Level 1 & 2 elementals would do 2d4, level 3 & 4 would do 3d4 and level 5 elementals would do 4d4.
Should be easy to add to the elementals, and would make them quite usefull especially against mobs. Not sure it would be balanced. But it's also quickly done.
Being easy isn't the real problem, it's simple priority as well. Exploits, bugs, applications, other forum work, and all that stuff quickly jumps in front of changes that aren't really needed so much as desired.
I'm sure they'll be changed when someone has the time since it's obvious they are rather gimped as a whole.