EFUPW Forums

As a returning player, I have enjoyed many years of EfU goodness, but get to look at all the new EfU:A stuff with fresh eyes.

I am enjoying the whole experience, the setting is interesting, the quests are interesting, the history is interesting.

But it's way too hard for me. And I say that with neither exaggeration nor anger, this server is just insanely hard.

We have the same crippling death penalties we had on EfU, we have a clear increase in basic quest difficulty over EfU, and inexplicably, we have a reduced XP per quest reward as well. Even the hardest of quests give 100-300 XP on completion.

Perhaps because the levelling is so slow, people seem to spend most of their time grinding quests. And with a high quest repetition comes higher chance of death. For example I was crit by a non-DM possessed endboss for 48 points of damage through blur and AC 28. The mob was attacking 3 times a round, so a 20 is going to happen in there every second or third quest run, and I doubt many level six (maybe seven is the cap) can survive that.    

And my own experience is reflected in the many PCs I see dying over and over again. One veteran said to me he hadn't had a character above level six in six months! I have seen two complete party wipes without restoration. That’s a lot of player work gone up in smoke for nothing.

Personally, I would never roll a deliberately antagonistic or inter-PC strife inducing character on this server (you know, the ones the DMs say they love). I wouldn’t simply because the thought of doing the beginner quests over and over again would make RP/conflict look too costly to be fun. The low level quests are really well made, don’t get me wrong, just it's hard to breathe life into them on the seventeenth run.

P.S. Before anyone else says it: "Don’t worry Scrapp, you'll get used to it". I am sure I will. As I learn the statics I will die less of course, but remember even though I am rusty, I am nowhere near a beginner. Imagine inviting a friend to play this server for the first time? They would be crushed.

While in most places the dificulty is perfectly fine, IMO, sometimes fate and randomness just fuck you up. Like that time i was fighting a great lizzard, and a shargass diciple attacked me from behind, or simply, when the druegar of the purple mine quest land a critical on you twice in a round, this things are random, and usually one has to be paranoid to avoid them, but still force you to begin doing low level quests again because your character becomes 1 or 2 levels lower, and you don't enjoy playing a weak character.

Repeating the same quest over and over does get tiresome. Especially when the only purpose of doing so is gaining levels to be able to RP better, since most people don't enjoy a weak character.

Considering the focus of this server is Roleplay, i would agree it would be better to allow characters to level up fast, so we could focus more in the roleplaying, rather than the questing for future roleplaying.

All that said, i like how dificult EFU:A is right now. I just don't like a small slip of randomness forces me to go back to low level quests, or to be a wus in RPed events. I would certianly enjoy it more if monsters and quests gave more XP, and the penatly for death was slightly reduced.

also scappy, if it helps, i've never had a level 8 character

I think it is fine.  Not too hard, yet challenging enough.  Infact I'd like to see more quests that were harder but that wont happen since most players shy away from them.

This ultimately boils down to the whole questing vs RPing point. It's the way it is, if characters never failed, the server wouldn't be nearly as diverse as it is.

My opinion probably is near yours Scrappy, this server is quite difficult. Part of that is fun, as I do enjoy exploration with some extreme pucker factor. The negative for me is that I find character advancement (yes, I really have fun seeing my character mechanically advance).

I've seen that the quests with the best reward to risk ratio get run quite often and among those the ones with gold payout get run more often than the others. Granted, I think this will happen in any PW as to the static repeating nature of the game design.

As to the quest vs RP, it's moot. RP while you quest, they are in no means mutually exclusive. Personally I despise sitting about hte keyboard for hours on end "RPing" without questy hack and slash goodness.

Your PCs' goals shouldn't depend on your lvl, so that dying isn't a trouble.

Now sure there are times when it's necessary to be individually-powerful to accomplish some goals, but then just make a built that helps.

Even then, the aim of this server is to include people to make things happen, not to reach goals playing solo. The only tough part is rounding up a regular team, especially at dead-hours.

Anyhow, the server isn't hard everwhere: it's dead easy to lvl up to 5, easy till 6/7, then it's meant to be tough.

There are probably here and there some balance issues, but just report them if you think it's fitting.

QuoteYour PCs' goals shouldn't depend on your lvl, so that dying isn't a trouble.

I sincerely dobut a party of level 4s & 5s can attack an orc camp and drive them out the island.

Or a level 4 can fight alongside the docksmen against the styigian and do anything else than look pathetic.

I don't think your average level 5 wizard followed by a party of level 3s & 4s can go deep into the sunken enclave to find out the origin of the nightrisers.

Or that mr. level 5 can kill, say iphegor canos to fulfill his revenge against thayans.

Bascially, if your character's story involves killing somone, chances are you're going to need to be a high level character, or the aid of a high level character to acomplish them, or even atempt them with a small chance of succes. I don't really think Horase Greely would come to be as importat as he is now, if he would have remained level 3. Levels and mechanical strenght are only not a faction when your roleplay consists of mostly talk, wich i find incredibly boring. Besides, NWN is about fighting and killing, that is what the game was designed for. Intresting RP will IMO always lead to an armed confrontatin with someone. And if you KNOW you are going to loose because you're level 6 and the oponent is level 9, unless you are looking for end your character, you really won't risk it. At least, most wouldn't, and with good reason.

Now i agree with something, it shoudln't, but it does. Allowing PCs to reach level 6 & 7 faster would reduce the significance of mechanical power in the roleplay.

If everyone could get high level and be a crusher a few days from creation there would be no feeling of success once you get there. And making the server "easier" wont change the fact that those who already are stronger still will be. Making the server easier for those who already find it easy seems like a bad idea.
As LPFF just said, getting to level 5 is a cakewalk, getting to level 6-7 is about as easy. But past that it gets slower, as it should be. I wouldn't want to see a server where everyone walks around at level 10 after a few days of playing. It would just be like a lowlevel arenaserver.

@ Plum.

Yes, of course it isn't too hard for you. I have watched all the old power players cruise along through some absolutely mad non-DM quests. But I don’t want to feel that I have to hook up with a core group of oldies just to feel like I have a decent chance of levelling. I have always enjoyed partying with thrown together groups of people, I like meeting new characters and interacting with them.

@ Porkolt
   
"if characters never failed, the server wouldn't be nearly as diverse as it is".
I threw out a few character concepts when I returned, and one of them was a non-optimised build, a fun character that had a good concept that didn’t fit with a power build. Hah. Right, like that was going to work here. Not a chance.

Besides, I am not suggesting no difficulty, just a reduced difficulty. As Drakill suggested, if everyone loves the quests as the stand, just add some more XP, that way you can still get killed regularly but it isn't quite such a grind.

What really worries me is that other people might think like I do. If its so hard to level up, once you have a decent character who isn't going to blow over in the next strong breeze, the temptation is to hold on to it carefully, rather than throw the dice with some PC conflict.

@ Beggar.

For me it isn't the payouts on the quests that are the problem. All my characters have perfectly sufficient loot to do their job. Its just that so many of the quests seem to be one bad roll of the dice (or one bad line of pathing) away from death - well buffed with gold in pocket or poorly buffed and bankrupt, it makes no difference.

Like you, I enjoy RPing and hack and slash, but I think variety is the spice of life, an


@ Letsplayforfun

"Your PCs' goals shouldn't depend on your lvl, so that dying isn't a trouble."
Damn, I should have included this in my P.S., someone was bound to say it. This is certainly true if your PC's goals include stamp collecting and drinking ale in the tavern. But character power directly correlates with PC goals. Let's take a case in point. I rolled a ranger, but the character cannot even go outside until level five. I would just get eaten over and over. The first time I got into a good PC and DM storyline, I was knocked back from level five to level two walking back to the zig. How does that make for a better story? How can I complete the PC's goal when I cannot even reach the areas linked to them?

Drakill, your examples are that of people doing unwise things, unprepared, and unmanned.

If a lvl5 wizard is foolish enough to investigate dire ruins that have poped undead for 2000 years without proper help, he deserves what's coming to him. Same if you side up with beggars fighting an elite mercenary army. Same if you think you're going to uproot a whole orc clan with 5 people at no loss.

As for taking out PCs, any buffed lvl 5 can do it, especially if it's a mage you're speaking of. Now maybe you won't do it alone, yes, especially if it's a powerbuilt you want to take down.

It's all about getting the right people to help you. Recruitement is the hard part. The factions that succeed or at least that are feared are the ones started by at least two/3 people, usually a leader, and a powerful side kick.

To take those down, you might want to do something else that take them front on if you're not in the same league. Make them do something that'll get some exiled, frame them, seperate them, buy them, ...

EfU is not about epic heroes that succeed all the time, it's about weakling isle-stranded people trying to survive. If your goals are epic battles, you'll need epic preparation and epic relationships.

As he stated, you can't really push an agenda and create PC conflict very well and have any hopes to achieve success at low levels. That seems to be a big misunderstanding these days and while I agree that people should -begin- pushing their agendas early, a PC simply won't be able to back that agenda up without some levels and power.

With the rate of PC turnover being so high you are really stuck grinding the quests daily to earn any status before you die off. That however is the only real option because making it easy or offering some silly XP system as mentioned in other threads would only be worse and still comes down to raw time investment. The only advice I can offer anyone is to try and 'learn the system' we have to make it easier on yourself and success will come hand in hand with it.

QuoteWith the rate of PC turnover being so high you are really stuck grinding the quests daily to earn any status before you die off.

QFT. It's the game design dilemma of a harsh death, conflict oriented server.

I play a character that could die from one good crit. Even a crit you mentioned would have one shotted me to death when I was lvl 5.

The server is difficult, but not as difficult as many want to see it. It also portrays some level of situation, setting and the time and place where your characters live.

You can never avoid a place where one bad roll can get you killed. Never, unless every monsters and foe is made being a vanilla-candy-version. I've thought many, many things are quite hard. I also like to think that currently I am playing by those experiences and learning how to counter these misfortunate chances and situations.

Even if this isn't right in most occasion, I still like to vaguely present the idea "what you see is what you see IG", being the idea that if you see something, if you exprerience something being difficult or dangerous - it probably is. In many parts I see these matters being purely that, a matter to be solved with IC manner. Nothing is perfect for everyone, but I don't see too many awful imbalance anywhere.

There has to be difficult opportunities. That orc warrior with big axe and chance to crit your head off, can't always be having -5 str and wielding a small mace. Dangerous chances excist, and they should, or there will soon be nothing but boredom in our daily playing.

I've left for months and come back to this server multiple times now. I know my statistical gameplay, and I'm very very capable when it comes to working through hard quests. I've been playing forever, so those types of things are natural.

However, I still get creamed if I make a single mistake in a group that doesnt all fight near or above my skill level. Leveling takes a long time anyway if you start to die, if you don't die and you're questing with the same team then its a cake walk to 8th.

However I have heard ~many~ people just get disspointed in the grinding, and other compare the battle system here to wow. No idea how true that is, but It didnt sound like a compliment. For a server that really needs a larger player base, I think Scrappy has made some good points. I agree fully that while the quests may be challenging to us oldies, they are cripplingly difficlt to anyone that wanted to LEARN nwn. Which would be an of us trying to oocly recruit players into an old game. I've brought three people here, and all three have left due to either the "oldies" hostility to those who aren't as good as them at the game, iirc assholedom, or simply getting sick of the level grind.

If increasing XP decreases the grinding nature of the serer, I'm all for it. I'd like to see some consistent characters staying alive now and then. I personally will not do certain quests without a perfect party, and -that- is metagamey. This game is to be fun, to inspire people, and if something this small would help that then I'm all for it.
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edit: I not suggesting make it easy, or reduce the odds of them killing you. Increasing exp would simply reduce the number of quests you have to survive before being that strong again. I dont like quest grinding at all, many share this opinion. This is not going to change the world, merely make it more tolerable and fun for those who are not ~as~ adept.

The post is actually well in line with the Zeitgest of my own mind toward server difficulty. I'll make a few tweaks, but-

Please note that some quests are hard simply because of level design. In invasions, you don't decide the pace hence why it is hard.

Some quests are also harder if played with 3 and become easier with 5 above+ so three manning isn't always a solution.

XP gains from quest that are regarded as difficult will be increased.

Some quests might get a resting zone added to them, however, if used, monsters may attack the party which will have to defend itself adding a pseudo risk, fun event to it.



I think the duality in mind comes that the easy part of the server is easy (Trogs, harpies), but the hard part is hard. So I will tweak that hard part of it, xp wise, difficulty wise.

I think the server difficulty level is nice if you have been playing nwn and efu for years. Unfortunately for the less experienced not so much. I've seen so many groups die just to lack of mechanical know-how that only comes from a lot of unfun deaths.

Some quests such as orcs 1 though fairly easy to conquer for an experienced core of vets would just wipe out any rag tag group that tried to take it on. Though please don't quote a number of times when your rag tag group managed to beat it, because I know it can be done with a random group! Too difficult to be worthwhile though!

Another unfortunate truth is that I really couldn't suggest anything that would improve upon the current system without causing more problems. I doubt anyone else could either.

I'm mechanically challenged, I'll admit that, so my poor PC dies a lot. I don't mind it (that much), but I would love to see more difficult quests that will accommodate smaller groups without having a barbarian tank. Playing in the late hours (and I'm sure the Euros playing during American mornings can sympathize) and scrambling to get a third for your party who makes IC sense and then having to do the same easy quests again and again is getting rather boring, and although I try to come up with different excuses to do things, eventually I'll run out.
 
I'd love to see more quests, harder ones, that groups of 3 or 4 can do in the lvl 5-7 range. From what I've seen, there's a lack of diverse lvl 6/7 quests that don't require a large group or a massive tank. Maybe I just don't know the server well enough, after having been here a few months, but I'd like to do other things than Jergals, gnolls, harpies, and oozes when I hit my lvl 6 ceiling.
 
Raising the xp rewards would be helpful to encouraging us to quest-train less and rp more, of course, but additional content is also a viable option! Also, in case I haven't said it before, kudos to the builders. I find the dungeons well-designed -- I'm just greedy and want more of them.

Actually Lakhena you'll find that the harder quests scale quite drastically the more people you bring and thus you're much better NOT going with more than three. Or if you do bring more than three they better all be very useful or the people that count will be massively burdened by the spawns.

Personally I would prefer if quests didn't scale with numbers so that way theres some benefit to bringing more over less (other than you might use a ton more supplies and gain more xp/less physical reward.)

Warbeast, The dms addressed this point within this post.

Quote from: Mort;158559Some quests are also harder if played with 3 and become easier with 5 above+ so three manning isn't always a solution.

The Loot tends towards the better end when more people went along as well. At least within a good chunk of the QAs

@ Mort.
Rest areas within long quests would be awesome, especially for offense mages and combat bards. It's always a problem on the long ones when you have to buff because it's the only effective way to prepare. It would also remove the problem in a lot of areas of casters always being burned out of spells for the way back post-quest as there's nowhere to rest without enemies in range. I'd like to see rest areas at the end of any quest where you're attacking some sort of camp, just for caster reloads.

I think some of the higher end quests become a nuisance when you bring too many people, though that is usually just sort of the fault of the nature of the quest. While I still definitely think the itemization/level pacing/difficulty of EFU as opposed to EFU:A was better, I think it's pretty easy to make the adjustment (eventually). I think that a significant problem is what can easily be identified as easy or hard and how desirable it is for a person to challenge that.

Here's another vote for inserting rest points within and/or near the start/end point of tough quests.  

It's very encouraging to see Mort and the DM staff are open to player feedback like this.

Thanks guys.

I agree with derflaro above that some way to tell a "normal" quest like trogs or harpies from a "hard" quest might be nice; maybe even put out a challenge, like Howland's adventurer challenge, but specific to doing hard quests - maybe in ways that are sub-optimal, too (like with four white mages).

I think that when things are going normal - dealing and receiving average damage, making sound decisions - that the difficulty is generally high but manageable. Mistakes should definitely be costly.

The thing about the random element being able to take you out no matter how good you are... well, that's more like the difference between playing poker and playing chess. This game is designed with those crits and saving throws. That's the nature of 3.x D&D.

I think it would be cool if rest points were added, they locked a special 'extra' loot chamber or something along those lines.

That way, those that want to push the difficulty level are able to do so, while others who prefer a more 'casual' time can use the aforementioned point to appropriate the challenge to a more desired level. It might even bring up some sort of interesting negotiations amongst party members.

QuoteWhile I still definitely think the itemization/level pacing/difficulty of EFU as opposed to EFU:A was better

You mean where you could hit L7 in one day no problem, and by day two be on your way to L9 and with a massive belt of wands to boot? No, one of the reasons EFU:A was even conceived in the first place was because the EFU economy was so massively broken.

I don't see why people have a problem with EFU:A's system. L6, a key level for pure BAB classes, is -extremely- easy to get to. You can do a gamut of non-risky quests and hit it very quickly. L7, the key level for multiclasses and casters, likewise is fairly easy to get. When I log on EFUSL as a DM lately, the average level is like 7+. Quite a number of L9s and tonnes of L8s.

I know how good you are at NWN Scrappa. You won't have many problems at all, once you get settled. Hitting L10 and beyond is honestly the only really difficult thing, and thats by design.

BTW, I am fairly against adding rest areas to any quest other than maybe Coral Cove and Sunken Enclave for obvious reasons. It would be utterly ridiculous for L7+ wizards to be able to rest during a quest. The whole party could have stoneskins and IIs up no problem, and the quest would be broken. Part of the challenge of playing a wizard is holding your spells in reserve for key times.

I think it's somewhat exaggerated that you could level that fast in EFU as opposed to EFU:A, and while possible, I don't think that changes the consideration that it was still somewhat more desirable in some manners. Regardless, it would be cool to quote entire sentences.

Coral Cove is a bitch though, glad you notice. Playing Ahmed, I found the only way to do it was to prep certain useful buffs, and inform my team to use potions on the rest. Broodhive's pretty bad too. It's the longest "casual" quest. Do remember though, resting also fries whatever buffs you chugged/paid for.

I'm not saying "stick a camp bed halfway through gnolls", but a Flayer dormitory, a bed in one of the Coral Cove outbuildings etc, would seem feasible, as well as campfires at the *end* of Gnolls, Wild orcs, trolls etc, so you can always exit with your wizards and clerics armed up *if* you are smart enough to bring bedrolls.

Coral Cove is a bitch though, glad you notice. Playing Ahmed, I found the only way to do it was to prep certain useful buffs, and inform my team to use potions on the rest. Broodhive's pretty bad too. It's the longest "casual" quest and short of a high level caster extending hour/level spells, everything runs out. Do remember though, resting also fries whatever buffs you chugged/paid for.

I'm not saying "stick a camp bed halfway through gnolls", but a Flayer dormitory, a bed in one of the Coral Cove outbuildings etc, would seem feasible, as well as campfires at the *end* of Gnolls, Wild orcs, trolls etc, so you can always exit with your wizards and clerics armed up *if* you are smart enough to bring bedrolls.

I'd say I level a lot faster here than in the UD but that's likely just me being a better player than when I started, and the fact my UD bard wasn't much of a powerquester.

Quote from: Caddies;158620BTW, I am fairly against adding rest areas to any quest other than maybe Coral Cove and Sunken Enclave for obvious reasons. It would be utterly ridiculous for L7+ wizards to be able to rest during a quest. The whole party could have stoneskins and IIs up no problem, and the quest would be broken. Part of the challenge of playing a wizard is holding your spells in reserve for key times.

Adding a rest camp on gnolls, a quest that takes 15-40 mins to do, depending on the party, is a bad idea.

Adding a rest camp at, orcs 2, a quest that takes 2-3 hours to do, is even necesary IMO. Mostly, because otherwise wizards are limited to buffs. Trolls is another long quest that could use a resting spot.

I couldn't be bothered reading everyone's post, so apologies if its been said before or answered to somehow.

I have to agree. I think the server is a notch or two too hard.

However, that line of difficulty appreciation changes for everyone. I am sure there are a few who would enjoy things a touch harder.

So while personally, I would like it toned down, I can respect that the server may well be as balanced as it can be, and it IS supposed to be a rather hardcore server.

@ Politoed:

It's not exaggerated. I can think of a lot of players/PC's that reached L6/7 on EFU in a matter of 2 days. It was extremely doable.

I can also think of some people (NAGA) who can do it in EFU:A as well. The thing is that while people were extremely familiar with the ins and outs of questing on EFU, EFU:A has been a bit more reticent in giving away it's path to glory.

I think that overall, it is not a bad balance and is mostly just unfamiliar to a lot of people. That said, some adjustments would certainly be welcome in various quests/ranges.

THe problem is, DeputyCool, how many gameplay hours you need to spend there? You also need a good party to do that, and by that i likely mean a group that OOCly knows each other, considering timezones, some get lucky and find it, others don't. Thouse who don't will spend a week at level 6, while the lucky ones can get to level 7 in a couple days.

Now the only real way to balance it would be to give bonus XP to players who don't log as often, wich is lame IMO.

My suggestion is to increse the XP gain in spawns (both outside and inside the SQAs) and the rewards from quests as well as reducing the XP penatly from death, for players under level 7 (2,3,4,5,6) so that reaching level 7 is not as hard, and PCs won't have to grind low level quests 75% of the time due to how dificult the server is. Levels 8+ would still be meritorious.

@ Everyone who says low level is easy.

I am currently struggling to keep a character above level four. I cannot possibly see how a character can level up quickly here, unless they jump on the end carriage of a high level quest group. I have always hated doing that.

Doing quests at the level where you can lead is slow and dangerous. For example at level five I got a total of seven hundred xp for Scalemount. It’s a fun quest, well written, where PCs regularly die. At seven hundred xp you would have to do it eight times to level up, and that is good xp here. I get less than three hundred for some quests.

Even the level two rat quest is slow. In EfU killing the rat would get you a third or half the way to level three. Here? A measly two hundred odd xp? You would have to kill that rat over and over to level. (I know no one would, I am just reiterating that the xp rewards here are low, low, low).

@ Those who talked of easy and hard quests.

Sorry, where are these easy quests, I must not have found them yet?

Trogs doesn’t scale well, so it's not too hard with a lynch mob, but it's still easy to die here, I have seen heaps of characters go down. My last death was "fall in pit, meet shammy without armour, get feared, die" (Prot from Evil? At level four? I couldn’t cast it, hadn't seen a potion of it, hadn't met a brewer. Where was I supposed to find one, let alone one per run?). That last room with the endboss and the spoilers is a mean fight for a three man. That room caused one of my above mentioned unrecovered full wipes.

But yes, they do get harder. That orc quest is a nightmare (fun, I'll grant you). We fought what seemed to be a metric fuckton of orcs, who spammed dispel and were regularly empowered with mysterious orcish true seeing ability. It was sheer dumb luck I survived that quest, sheer luck. So I will acknowledge we have various difficulty levels, but they are hard and harder, not hard and easy.

@ Caddies.

Challenge to you my son. Next time you roll a character, try this for size. A) Roll a distinctly non-optimised build. B) Don’t accept DM loot or DM adventures. C) Don’t do any quest which have a top cap level more than one higher than your own (so if its 2-5, only do it at level 4). See if you still think it's fast and easy to level.

I've already done your challenge quite a few times Scrappa, and with less optimized characters than your own. The difference is I had time to adjust to EFU:A by that time. You've been here a week or whatever it is and you're finding it extremely difficult; thats always going to happen to everyone. After a month of acclimatisation, albeit through trial and error, you'll know the server as well as the rest of us and you'll thrive.

If it makes you feel any better, I found EFU:A perplexing hard compared to EFU when I first started. It is -much- harder, I agree, but its something you 'just get used to' over time. If anything, it'll probably give you razor sharp NWN skills.

Good luck and welcome back! :)

My current char reach lvl 6 in two days (counting today) It isnt that difficult to level at all if you have a survivalist build I even had lvl 9 for awhile with Carlos before he died VIA DM quest and then as soon as he hit 9 he died again during tolls. And with Red Eleint Spice Ive gained lvl 8 On Kelian. and Lets not forget Sarlee who also got lvl8. I honestly think in EFUA its easier to level. In the old EFU I had only 1 char that was lvl 8 and that was Koinus Sten. Other then that the highest level ive ever been was 6.

Quote from: DeputyCool;158655@ Politoed:

It's not exaggerated. I can think of a lot of players/PC's that reached L6/7 on EFU in a matter of 2 days. It was extremely doable.

I can also think of some people (NAGA) who can do it in EFU:A as well. The thing is that while people were extremely familiar with the ins and outs of questing on EFU, EFU:A has been a bit more reticent in giving away it's path to glory.

I think that overall, it is not a bad balance and is mostly just unfamiliar to a lot of people. That said, some adjustments would certainly be welcome in various quests/ranges.

Pretty sure I said it was possible. It was done, but it was definitely a minority. If some people want to put in the time to become X level in a couple days or whatever, that is fine, but I don't think they should necessarily set the bar for everyone.

Hmm, so the only way for the server to become easy (not overly difficult?)  is for OOC knowledge of the ins and outs and only questing with those who have the same OOC knowledge?
 
That's okay with me, I am used to barely reaching level 5 for short periods of time before dying again and not getting into various quests as I am not aware of them or don't know a group strong enough to handle it so that I can learn it and don't mind bringing along a shmuck like myself.  I still enjoy it for the story and RP.

Unfortunately this is the deal, if you think about it.

Some parts need tweaking, sure, but it cannot be made too easy.

It is a fact, that sooner or later if one has power to continue to play, they will come used to things and learn the common way around the setting. At this time if things are so said "easy" already, for a used guy these will be even more overrun than many things that may be at this time.

And in all honesty, at that point we'll be having more of lvl 8-10 than ever before, another set of posting about how our level has gotten out of hand once again, and so on.

Suggestions to tweaking here have been very good, lets stay to that. Others need to think a bit what happens if we take it too far.

This server is catered pretty fiercly towards the needs and wants of the gung-ho crowd with lots of hours to invest in this hobby, which leaves us more casual players hanging high and dry in some regards, but that's just the nature of the beast, I figure.
C'est la vie.
 
I'm quite poor at NWN, in spite of the amount of time (gosh, many years now) I've played this game, and so I expect to die a lot on EFU;A. I don't mind however, as long as low-level characters get to face worthy adversaries, scary enough to warrant for your PC to be considered a heroic, late adventurer and not just some lost farm boy that got eaten up by rats in the event of his death. If I felt that I had a slim chance of ever pushing my PCs beyond "surviver" to "adventurer", I wouldn't play here. The Temple of Jergal is quite good in this regard, you get to face stuff that it's quite acceptable to die from early on, it's not just embarrassing, like rats or something.
 
 
It's cool that your PC starts out as some riff-raff, but the next level of achievement, adventurer status, should not be exclusive to the NWN savvy, IMO.
 
I don't think EFU;A is failing in this regard, but I think it's something to keep in mind: That level of difficulty does not revolve solely around the mechanical aspect of the game, i.e. levels, but also around the sense of achievement derrived from other sources, i.e. how easy is it to get the gear to look cool, how easy is it to kill cool stuff etc.

Scrappy, i hear you man, EFU, was much easier than EFU:A but having said that, ive been back about a month of so and ive found it much easier now than i did before (although i do die quite alot, Skub for instance has yet to crack lv 6)

agreed the RP factor is what gets me coming back but if im playing a Barb like Skub he isnt going to enjoy standing around talking all day long and neither do I.

I do think the idea of adding rest points at either the finish or mid way through the rather longer quests is a good idea and i also think the idea of having areas containing more loot getting locked off if they are used is also a good idea, heck the areas might simply contain a scattering of weak mobs for an easy hundred or so more xp and a few trinkets or perhaps those areas contain side quests like say you find a prisoner and you have to find the key to release him/her and it happens to be on the body of the boss but the prisoner is poisoned and only has a short while to live (making sence if you take time to rest then the prisoner dies) but if you release the prisoner you still have to get them back to the start where their supplies are kept and they can heal themselves (again resting will cause the prisoner to die and thus no bonus xp/loot/coin)

another way to add to the possible xp you can gain/loot is simply to give the option to go further in but if you do you cant leave untill you clear it through (cave in or the like) a chance to rest before pushing on (or maybe automated in the form of being knocked out from a cave in or something) but there are significantly more and harder mobs there. Think of it some what like the wolves at the farm quest but it would be adaptable to say gnolls, clear the last room and the battle causes a minor cave in, or one of the chests contains a hidden leaver or something of that kind.

i think if we establish the thought that lv 11 is the upper most lv that any one could manage (no content to tailor for beyond that and as such it is impossible without running ALOT of DM events) and that we establish lv 9 as a good high goal, it kinda makes alot of sence for people to struggle at lv 5, your over half way through what is achievable using SQA's and unless your char is exceptionally good at being all shifty and keeping out of trouble or is just simply so bad ass that it puts down any attempts on its life then i dont see any reason why evil char's dont plan on putting down the high lv pally to further their plans or the good citizens dont put down the evil char that has plotted to cause (insert generic goal objective here) because even though levels make doing things easier, its only really a mechanical adaptation to make your Char capable of being a fulcrum for storytelling to be hinged on. Thats what i play EFU:A for,

while ive been working christmas trading hours, being in australia puts me online at awkward times for other players around the world, especially the states so untill after new years i wont be able to be on while other char's are that are integral to my owns story ive been showing a friend the RP ropes and getting him used to the server.

we wiped on the farmers daughter quest with a pair of lv 3's simply because his warrior got feared and killed while feared, this sort of quest shouldnt be an issue for 2 lv 3's with plenty of equipment but he simply was hit with an unlucky roll and my cleric couldnt stay standing long enough to get his figher back up, but thems the rolls his comment though stuck,

"how the hell do you remember everything about this place there is just so much here to do and the difficulty is just insane at times, did i make a mistake in the stats i rolled or something?"

him having no idea on the mechanical parts of NWN and only a conceptual idea on how to work them along side RP meens that he has alot ot learn, and i cant teach him most of it (myself not being terribly good with the mechanics of the game but reasonable at RP'ing the stats [atleast i think so] leaves it to being alot for a new player to take in.)

the part that struck me the most with that was that i had a very similar reaction when i first started playing EFU, i never got a charactor to higher than lv 6 there and actually enjoyed my lv 4 Monk the most out of my charactors, but if it wasnt for Diamisus, there is no way i would have gotten to that point, i had no idea on how to work the ropes (heck it was some what daunting to get thrown into the middle of sanctuary and walking out having never played NWN in multiplayer let alone RP ment i had no idea about anything.

But i guess that is part of the feeling of accomplishment you earn for getting used to the ropes and how everything works and then adding in your own plots and stories to continue the setting

There are a core of players that are just mechanically gifted and have awesome game sense. Of those, many are also amazingly good RPrs, as Caddies is. Though I disagree that it is easy to get to L6/7, it is probably due to my overall suck factor mechanically. It's like this in every game though, that has online interaction, and it's extremely improbable that any game can be balanced for everyone playing it.

I think we should talk about the spoi...details of the quests and be very specific about what is exactly hard. I suggest using area maps that show where gank squads are in quest areas and such. Details, details, details!

Just a suggestion, I will certainly take notes.

:mrgreen:

I am with Scrappa on this. I don't have endless hours to invest in this game and with my current PC I've managed to do every quest on the surface except for 3-4 and I am still only level 7. This is frustrating to me. I would love for there to be more high level PCs for me to quest with, and for the median server level to rise 2-3 levels. I trust Mort to come up with a sweet solution though, if he's working on it, so no worries from me here.

P.S. I am part of the mechanical elite on this server, and I think Scrappa's points are really well articulated. Some parts of the server really feel like Russian roulette.

Quote from: KjetilofNorway;158682This server is catered pretty fiercly towards the needs and wants of the gung-ho crowd with lots of hours to invest in this hobby, which leaves us more casual players hanging high and dry in some regards, but that's just the nature of the beast, I figure.
C'est la vie.

That's a very good point.

On a side note, i've witnesses someone complaining here fall in vermin tower because he ran  ahead at 'near death'. I've seen other fall in harpy because he ran ahead while other were healing, with no mind ward on top. I've seen another fugue because he wanted to 3 man orcs part 1, deliberately ignoring those asking 'for a job', and then 'telling' my high lvl pc if i can set up a rescue team. There's lots more example i could give of how i've seen people die. And most of the time, it's not the 'server's fault'.

On another note, there was a thread somewhere about "Why PCs die". Read it. Read it again. And once you've read it, apply it.

The server is fine the way it is. Defenatly not too hard, Yes lvling is slower than back in the UD, but who want to be lvl 6 in 2 days anyway??
If any changes should be done, it should be bringing the setting back into the UD.

P.S Welcome back Scrappa!

Great discussion, lots of good points. Here's my two cents' worth.

I love difficulty. It's why I like this place. I want adventuring to be hard and the penalties for failure severe. What I do not like are impossible situations, insta-death, and monsters with abilities far beyond what their nature merits.

To give just a few examples of things I would turn down a notch: Shargass Disciples, Elder Mist Ogres, and Assassin Vines. All three of these baddies can turn what began as a fun challenge into a miserable dead end. I have seen many players quit otherwise good characters because of them. If a creature is going to have a set of abilities that guarantees character death, it belongs under DM control. And for God's sake, they should never be anywhere near the starting areas.

Now, I am not saying that PCs have the right to defeat every monster or overcome every obstacle. But when people are quitting awesome characters because they don't believe their concept has a place on this server, we have a serious problem.

In the old server, difficulty was a matter of geography. A level 5 character could reasonably expect to survive a trip around the surrounds of Sanctuary by themselves. You knew that you were taking a big risk by going out much farther than that, and you knew that death was waiting for you as you approached the monster cities.

In the new server, a level 8 PC can get WTFpwned in areas that have level 3 quests in them. It has happened to me more than once, and I've seen it happen to others more often than I care to remember. My suggestion: keep the overpowered mobs out of the places PCs must use for travel, and make a shift from lone, impossibly hard monsters to groups of high difficulty monsters. Three orc guerrilla hunters are actually harder to beat than a single Shargass disciple, but unlike the assassin, they have almost no chance of causing a player to ragequit if they end up killing their character.

Lulz, your point about the difficulty of travelling is spot on IMO. Nicely stated.

I like how the Beggar is involved in this discussion.

I also like how Lulz(ebub) portrayed the risks. However, I do not perceive that Mist Ogre Elders are either a) a certain death nor b) anywhere near the areas that should be 'safe and easy' to travel. Elsewise, spot on, even though I've walked around most of the server both visibly and invisibly, and don't tend to have difficulties with the aforementioned spawns.*

*a powergamers disclaimer, may be disregarded at your own leisure

Here's my perspective, and I haven't read all the posts, yet, just the OP.

People don't really want to make a character that will be set up for failure (In general, at least). In such a difficult setting, some ideas, which may be significantly beautiful (Either character concepts, plots, etc.) may not be incredibly mechanical enough to enjoy most of what the server has scripted. (For example, dying on quests, spawns, you get the picture.)

If we have characters which are repeatedly dying to such spawns, then it's likely that maybe they won't be able to enjoy the 'splendors,' so to say, of EfUA.

In essence, I guess that: A. People concept upon success. B. Server difficulty can be crushing some success, either mechanically, emotionally, etc. C. We all like to see success.

Anyway, I tweaked a lot of monsters. Quest rewards. Touched up on same famous baddies.

I'm not listing the changes here, but it should address some of the stuff said.

Mist ogres only spawn in the mountains which is meant to be a scary area isn't it?  Also they are fairly easy to sneak past.  However shargaas disciples are admittedly spawning in the foothills.  And as for those damn vines I 100% agree, it's made travelling to the bogs suicide which seems like it's a waste of an area as no one really sees it.

We like it rough!

Too late. Welcome to carebear land, muahahaha!

damn... I had hopes it would be more akin to my little pony or perhaps sesame street but care bears isnt so bad ^^) thanks mort

When I play it seems as if alot of people wait for a quest sending to be made before they go out instead of initiating it themselves, which probably has to do with them being a lower level and finding the server more difficult.

Try gathering people to do quests. You will gain xp, supplies, and can then survive in the wilderness or other places.

I never said Mist Orgres were in areas where they should not be, I just said they were hard. Specifically, my gripe with the Elder Mist Ogres is that if more than one of them notices you, it's over. End. Fin. No refund, you're effing dead. They already have abilities that can wipe a party in the blink of an eye, and when those abilities are multiplied, look out.

I'm interested to see how things have changed. It may be a moot point by now.

Quote from: Lulzebub;158857I never said Mist Orgres were in areas where they should not be, I just said they were hard. Specifically, my gripe with the Elder Mist Ogres is that if more than one of them notices you, it's over. End. Fin. No refund, you're effing dead. They already have abilities that can wipe a party in the blink of an eye, and when those abilities are multiplied, look out.

I'm interested to see how things have changed. It may be a moot point by now.

Summoning trinket + run works fine.

Thank you for making EFU:A easyer, it was way to hard.  Might I suggest we make sewer rat meat give 50xp per meat up to L15?  I think at that level I can kill mist ogres and leave the Kingsman Inn front door.  Awesome!!!

PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY

WELCOME BACK

Someone lock this before it get too stupid. The server is not too hard.

P.S no offence intended

I like it the way it is.
 
The difficulty is part of the reason many are here.  There are plenty of servers out there, for all game play styles.
 
Hard ones
Easy ones
Just right ones
 
It is all opinionated to each individual obviously.  I prefer the server the way it is.
 
My $0.02

Hang tight, guys, I am about to blow your mind with an insight only an incredibly genius such as myself could possibly provide:

Just because you think it's hard doesn't mean it is.
Just because you think it's easy doesn't mean it is.

Now excuse me while you sweep up the bits and pieces of your scattered mind.

Jasede, let us mate and make wise babies.

I think too many people are missing the details to the point the OP was trying to make.  This does not necessarily have to be a debate over what is too hard or too easy.  The point is that in order for your character to remain relevant in many "hostile" RP situations (and regardless of your goal you WILL find yourself in one such as this), you need to have mechanics behind you.  For caster and rogues roles, even many non-hostile RP situations could only be resolved if you were just 2 or 3 levels higher for that certain spell you need to use or the skill points to open a given door or disarm a trap.

This of course leads to characters redundantly questing/grinding.  Even the ones who have no real IG justification for why they might want to.  They only do so because RP exp rewards are often rather slim and hard to come by unless your character has captured a DM's interest (which takes some time and usually doesn't happen during the earlier levels when you need it most).

I long ago grew dead sick and tired of seeing 75% of the players IG moping about and refusing to do any form of interesting RP while they look for suitable grinding groups.  Even whenever I have managed to reach L7+, the server "seems" dead.  If there's not a DM hosting an event, you can assume that most players are either standing around idle/AFK or off grinding.  I might spontaneously have an AMAZING idea for a player driven event, but if half the server is busy grinding at the time all I can do is simply shake my head in frustration.

Personally, I would like to see significantly greater exp rewards (if not mildly better treasure rewards) for all players from L2 to L6.  The only argument against this that I can see is that level diversity is good for RP.  I would have to debate it though by suggesting that many players seem to remove themselves from a lot of RPing until they feel mechanically significant enough to seriously begin considering their goals.  They envision that the meat of their character's tale would begin when they are roughly L5-L7.  Therefore they lay low and grind away until they reach that point.


Regarding the difficulty...

It should be understood that the learning curve to this server is likely not a great selling point for most new players.  NWN is reaching the end of it's lifespan quickly and it is not bringing many new players to it's community (that consisting of all online NWN players).  This server can only grow by attracting what remains of that community to our niche.

The most essential phase towards designing any form of gameplay is to ALWAYS let either unbiased statistical numbers or an unbiased portion your audience dictate what is too easy/difficult.  Never attempt to make that judgement call for yourself.  You cannot possibly have an appropriate perspective if you sit very near the top of that curve.  This would include almost all of our DMs.  Also, you cannot simply go entirely based upon the feedback from veteran players just because you've come to trust their opinions better over time.  The fact that they are veterans of this server biases the results of any such survey.

Personally, I have never considered myself among any higher echelon of veteran players on this server.  I would not even consider stepping one toe into some of these "epic" quests such as enclave unless I absolutely hated my current character or felt in a particularly self-destructive mood that day.  The best scripted quest is always less epic than the crappiest DM driven quest.  Then again...  I've only perhaps stepped into a quest as many as a couple dozen times for reasons other than feeling that my character was mechanically incapable of reaching his goals.  That's simply ALL that scripted quests are for.  Amassing exp and treasure so that you will become more mechanically significant in RP situations.  Of those other times, it was likely because I wanted to RP with another player who was too busy grinding himself to be able to do so otherwise.


To summarize this all, I suggest that for L2-6 the ratio of rewards/efforts should be increased while I believe that the ratio of risks/rewards might need some further attention (unless Mort has nailed it). Personally I like the risks/rewards ratio just fine within the L2-L6 range, but then I am not exactly a "new" player myself.

QuoteThat's simply ALL that scripted quests are for. Amassing exp and treasure so that you will become more mechanically significant in RP situations. Of those other times, it was likely because I wanted to RP with another player who was too busy grinding himself to be able to do so otherwise.

Well, they were designed to be fun actually.

Anyway it is hard to balance things just right and we can definitely improve in terms of making this place easier for new players. But after level 7 or so I think things should be more mechanically challenging, yes, because it makes it more meaningful if you accomplish things.

Quote from: Vendayan;159065Personally, I would like to see significantly greater exp rewards (if not mildly better treasure rewards) for all players from L2 to L6.

Oh man, I've been beating this drum for like, years now.

(If you're talking about RP exp, that is.)

I say increase the difficulty! Screw the whiners!

That's right I said it!

Just to say this, you will get more XP and better loot through story-wise, concept-wise pursuit than through quests. If you really make the effort of involving others, the rewards will come. Proactiveness, while it may kill your character, pays off well.

Just play your character.  I have had some that will do any quest anytime, then there is my current which has to have an IG reason to do them.
She has NEVER done Gnolls and only the purple crystal mine quest once, which ended badly.

If you RP and have reasons to do things you will find that the DM's do pay attention and give XP.  I can honestly say that the XP I've gained since reaching 7th has been almost (I've done 2 quests since then) all DM XP mostly from RP.  (I'm 1300 from 8th now)

So play it smart, don't be in such a rush to get levels.  Enjoy the character growth and development you can achieve through RP.

The quests are difficult and the wilds dangerous... Welcome to Ymph.

Quote from: Howland;159078Well, they were designed to be fun actually.

Anyway it is hard to balance things just right and we can definitely improve in terms of making this place easier for new players. But after level 7 or so I think things should be more mechanically challenging, yes, because it makes it more meaningful if you accomplish things.

I should apologize for a bit of insensitivity towards those who worked hard to build them.  I don't deny that scripted quests are fun.  I simply think that they still pale in comparison to good player/dm driven events with a decent amount of effort put into them.  Especially once you've already completed them, they nearly always will.

Keep in mind that many of these have been scaled to become a "fun" challenge for players only once they've been learned front to back.  Going into any quest unprepared for it's unique challenge is death.  Going in perfectly prepared to a L2-6 quest is often mindless clockwork.


Perhaps one decent option which might help...

Maybe have an NPC which would wander about the ziggurat doing nothing but announcing that they've been asked by someone to find help.  This NPC would be inclined to suggest quests based on the average level for those players in the area at the time.  If you select his psuedo-random quest (which is to complete his suggested quest) the NPC might give an additional reward of gold and exp.  It helps to solve several problems perhaps?  A plot hook which doesn't require noncombatants to be out looking for trouble, which offers a bit more rewards to push players towards L6-7 a tad quicker and which encourages players to take on a larger variety of quests.

Good player and DM events are more fun than quests, but they are simply not available at any time for everyone.

Quests are, on the other hand. Lower level quests, such as the level 2-6 are not meant to be very deadly or overly difficult. They are there for players to quickly and easily involve others. Yes, that can also be done through a player driven event, but that requires a bit of work. Quests are a quick way to meet new peopel to work towards things outside of quests.

Make something for players to do if you don't want them questing. Recruit them, give them tasks, cause a stir.

Be dynamic. ;)