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Well, I suppose I have a piece to say. This is similar to RwG's rant, but instead of the gank squad, I am describing the DM relationship with player factions...

Yes, they are better. You can get guild houses, support, claim territory, ALL OF THIS AND MOAR. It's screamed at us, and I hear it! In old EFU all of this was near impossible to get and player factions had it rough, really rough.

But nothing really changed in regards how a DM views a player faction.

It sorta started when Sharboneth came and went, "You either accept us or the Manchakans come and enslave you all."

But I digress, this is about the new dm faction.

[Not to put down DeputyCool.]

The Transcendent Conclave particularly makes me go, WTF? We had -two- wizardly player factions, the Thayan Enclave and the Syndicate. Both are rather prominent. I am not saying the development would of been different, but I honestly feel like the DMs could of handled this better. Would it not have been better to have the two factions, independently, work toward this achievement? Make the players feel like they had a hand in the rise of a new dm faction? Something they evidently shaped to THEIR views according to whom succeeded?

It's a DM faction, I get it. It obviously requires super powerful NPCs that are ridiculously hard to kill and they spam heal potions and have an AB of 20+ and do 40+dmg a hit and of course require an army of badass npcs probably just as mean to fulfill their objectives, I get it!

But I feel like this is really getting to the point that the DMs are making NPCs so powerful...it's like, PLOT SHIELD, SORRY, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO THIS NPC IS GONNA SURVIVE UNTIL I SAY HE DIES BITCH. This sort of puts a halt to anything a PC wants to do if a particular NPC, say, Trenada, says, "NO." What will the PC do? Nothing, he knows he cannot win, he knows he cannot gank trenada without the DM first pausing and cuing up Displacement haste and divine power pots (or if it's mort, no need to pause.) or if you get him near death you know he'll down a heal potion.

What is a player faction to do? I am not saying that the DMs should scrap there plans (well, I kinda am) because some PC wants to do something that will go against their own carefully laid plans- but I believe that NPCs should also be able to loose.

I mean, the Thayan Enclave I hear has AWESOME players, incredible plots, and more. The Transcendent Enclave really made them quite irrelevant. I am sorry PC wizard factions, the Transcendent Enclave has made you all obsolete. And to add hurt to injury, we did this without having you insist in any form whatsoever, I just made an all powerful NPC with two other powerful NPCs make the Enclave come up. WOW. [please note sarcasm.]

I think it's time for NPCs of import to start being level 2 or 3 again, and a single greataxe should be able to kill them.

I am getting sort of tired of the high level +20 ab NPCs, yea know?

Disclaimer: This post was made to obviously put some backs up and cause a stir. But this post is probably a bit extreme, and I will likely expect it to be trolled mercilessly. Then locked. Go ahead, say your piece.

I think you're wrong.

Just because there are PC Factions that involve Wizards does not mean that a DM Faction cannot add to the setting. For instance, the Thayan Enclave still exists. It fulfills a very different role. Nearly all of the Thayan Enclave Faction has joined the Conclave, and enjoy it immensely.

As for the Syndicate, I am sorry but a faction that boasts perhaps 3 PC's simply did not fit the bill, imo. Not to insult their efforts, but they were not quite as involving as a DM Faction.

Additionally, both factions played a role in the forming of this faction, from the very beginning.

Primarily, I think you are attempting to find fault with something that you do not know that much about. You clearly have not even talked to the players in those factions, at least not the Thayans.

I think some more public information and actual direction of the DM factions would be nice but hardly feel that having this conclave makes any other wizard organization irrelevant. That carries about as much weight as saying that the Stygian faction makes mercenary characters and groups useless.

If you don't like the faction or want to work against it then you can always take that path just as easily as joining it and doing other things.

We're in the process of a major overhaul to the website, and such to update things to today's factions/NPC's/etc.

As a Thayan in the Conclave, I state that firstly:

Both the Syndicate and the Enclave had a lot to do in the formation of the Conclave and it was in the Enclave's list of goals to assist in the creation of a Council of Wizards (which we're now doing)

And Secondly:

That both factions can still exist and even benefit from the newer DM faction. The Thayan Enclave is not only very happy for the Conclave, as DC said we've almost entirely joined it and we're still working on our own goals!

While what you're saying is valid, you're speaking for people who actually have entirely different opinions and unless you've got a different argument than this, I'll just tell you: We're all cool with it! :D

Also, PCs can still hold as much if not more power than NPCs, in this faction and any other. It's just the power of proactivity rather than the power of stability.

A good issue TNVW raises here. I would urge the DM team to pay attention to his arguments, even if they are excessive.

I understand EfUA is a DMs sandbox's too, but a PC sandcastle feels a bit helpless before and DM stone forteress.

From outsider's point of view (i'm not logged on much these past 2 weeks), it does look like instead of getting help, a fragile PC faction just got run over. It's a feeling that's been mentioned before, if i'm not mistaken.

Obviously most people will hop on the bus with that cool new faction, but some might've enjoyed making/leading the bus.

Just my 2c. Have fun playing ;)

Again, they did help/lead it, so I think primarily people are incorrect in their complaints, and mostly just uninformed.

Yes, I gotta as well go with Deputy here. Gotta say we kinda did lotsa stuff and we were one PC faction with syndicates folks from earlier to do alot to get in this point where this new DM faction was formed.

If you have not noticed, those leader figures of those PC factions or involved are even at higher ranks than others...

It's cool to be worried, but you did not quite ask about how it turned out. It was fully IC, and we were striving for it all well and good, and are quite pleased with our position regarding it.

I would like to explain more as well, but quite frankly, they are fully IC and in game little-know-hows, but I can say, this is where we were going for.

Thayans are enjoying.

i agree with thomas but not exactly the way he words it, nor exclusively to the spellguard 2.0 or whatever

imagine this train track that is efua and the story progression is the train except there are like these boulders on all the forks in the road

I agree that DMs should have better recocnised the efforts of PC factions and built the world arround them. For instnace a thayan DM factions would have been just awsome and i think they deserve it.

I do feel overrun by the big badass DM faction that the conclave is, being of a minor player faction. However this doesn't kill the Syndicate, but instead makes it react and counter attack, how do we do that? We change our aim and our goals, and fit again on EFU:A.

Eh.... I'll comment on this, since I basically got leadership of a PC faction shoved onto me (All your fault, PapaMidnite. :P), and my character Walther is the "Chief Engineer" of the Syndicate...
 
To be honest, Thomas... I have to agree with DeputyCool's sentiment concerning the Syndicate. I've done a some (few) things to contribute to it, but generally the faction itself has been in decline, or at least I think, ever since Kotenku went and killed off Landor (Last time I pay nearly 5000 gold to ressurect a PC, go to hell Kotenku ;)). It's a great concept, it was meant to be all-encompassing, but due to certain issues, mostly called "Real Life", the Syndicate never reached its potential to be the grand "neutral" center of research, cooperation, and information sharing that it was meant to be. I don't really fault anyone for that though. We've had some DM involvement to try and help us out with Zyphaem and what-not... but wasn't the "defibrillator" that I believed the DM intended it to be for the faction. It still has a lot of potential, and could grow more encompassing in the future, but... it isn't that faction right now.
 
As for the Thayan Enclave, well, they're a great powerful PC faction I guess (Though I don't know all that much about them), but they're far from being an established organization that serves the purpose of a center of research for the betterment of all, or, at least, that's my outsider's perspective.
 
The Conclave fits this role well, or seems to, and I won't pretend to know the future role this faction plays in the over-arching plot of this server, but obviously DeputyCool created it because the "tool" that already served that purpose was currently inadequete to drive the plot forward, and so waved his magic DM wand and conjured up a bigass flying ship with a shitload of magically-armed-to-the-teeth NPCs to plant the seed for this faction to move the plot along.
 
This is fine, if that's your playstyle. Player and DM Factions both have their strengths and weaknesses. The Strength of a DM Faction that relates to this is that it's stable, and won't deviate from its designated course unless the DM intends it to, unlike a player faction which varies on how often the players are IG, and if IRL takes precedense, or the players get bored, a booming, great faction can completely fall into the gutter.
 
However... there is some wisdom to be found in Thomas's words...
 
With the continued introduction of "All-Powerful" (i.e. untouchable to PCs unless they have a deathwish) DM Factions into the everyday game world, and using them as tools to move plots forward, you're also conditioning the playerbase to follow the DM Factions forward, rather than lead themselves. Hence... complaints about players not assuming leadership or pushing their own plots forward after they've been conditioned otherwise are often unwarranted. There's nothing wrong with this story style, certainly... it's stable, controlled, and allows the DM to express the story the way they want to, with an almost guaranteed "proper" ending.
 
I often feel like I get mixed signals... though I'm new to this specific server, so that's bound to happen. I like to think of it as if a man gave you a truck (under his specified terms), and says "You can drive this car anywhere...", pausing a moment to watch your reaction, and then points to a narrow alleyway, before continuing once again "... in that alley there!". Now of course what he says is true, you can drive it -anywhere-, and if you truely wished to drive further, you could smash your car through the alley walls, possibly destroying the car, the walls, and yourself... along with alerting the authorities, being brought to court for lawsuits for property damage, and if anyone was killed, perhaps manslaughter and eventually the death penalty... but you can technically drive anywhere.
 
Which is all fine and dandy, but don't be surprised if the playerbase gets confused. I've been having a blast, personally.
 
On a final note... Well, House Greywood and Black Company has a Castle, a claim to territory, soldiers, and all sorts of stuff... so let it not be said that PC Factions can't achieve anything. They're just less reliable as tools to push a DM Plot is all.
 
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Hope I didn't offend anyone with that braindump there, just hoped to offer what I've observed thus far with my first character on this specific server. I usually like to figure out how game worlds work and operate, so I try to observe it from all sorts of angles. Been having a fun time personally, though this is the guy that RPed his dead character in the Fugue on another Forgotten Realms server for about 4 months ;).

A Thayan Enclave faction would've been limiting, PC-centred and imbalanced. Unless you're suggesting NPCs take the power away from the PCs, the PCs will eventually die and I have no doubts that players would complain about how various PCs have been openly handed a DM faction.

@Drakkil:

The Syndicate was given -numerous- opportunities to more deeply envelope themselves in the plot, or work against it, or do pretty much anything. The Faction seemed to unanimously decide they would rather do nothing at all.

Most of the events surrounding the formation of the Conclave had a lot of player effort involved in them.  Calling it a DM sandbox and a railroad effort to form this faction just.....cheapens the hard work of many PCs who put a lot into this.

As the leader of the Thayan Enclave I suppose I'll chime in here.

Thomas, I think you mean well, which is sweet. Your concern for the players of the previous wizard faction is adorable, but as others have said, you should have spoken to some of us before assuming to know our feelings.

The Thayan Enclave, at least the way I intended it when I created it, was never meant to become a DM faction. I am very happy with the way it has turned out, and it continues to thrive as we pursue our goals.

Furthermore, the Conclave was something we worked IC towards achieving. Truth be told, behind the scenes it was in the works way before SFP and I first sat down for a chat and said, "Yo, let's try to unite the prominent wizards into a Mages Guild." But the end establishment of the Conclave was something we were working towards.

As for your problem with powerful NPCs, yes, there are alot of OP NPCs, but think about how hard it would be for DMs to tell a continuous story if NPCs had the same life span as PCs? If it was so easy to just kill a prominent NPC whenever two guys with an axe between them decided to, the gameworld would be absolute chaos. How would any semblance of plot continue? Of course I don't think they should be unkillable, but the fact that they make you think they are- that is what the leader of a super strong merc faction, or powerful wizard faction SHOULD be.

As an aside, not being able to potion up and gank an NPC =/= being unkillable.

As a further aside, I've made this PC purely to kick the Syndicate up the arse so that it's not just wizards advancing the researchy plots. The big problem with that faction was it was so open to everyone that it was a secondary faction for every PC involved with it. It didn't have the same level of dedicated PCs the Library or Society did IMO. DM factions are clearly a primary focus for a PC, but where something is a PC faction, even a well-supported one, it can end up being a side goal for everyone involved, since they don't push as hard for something they didn't have to app for and doesn't provide clear rewards.

As far as "The DMs pulled the Conclave out of their collective ass" goes, that's been brewing for ages. I can tell just from gossip threads that something was building, as I haven't been on when any of the events occured. I do though agree with Thomas in a way. The highest level, most influential PCs should be on a par with the strongest NPCs on the isle. It gives players a feeling that the world is shaped *by* PC achievement, not *in spite* of it.

If a DM decides something needs to be stepped on, doing it with a squad of L8 Elite Stygians, Conclave Mages etc. seems a more elegant way of doing things than single NPCs that are higher level and better equipped than any player can aspire to. Representing power with numerous strong goons, rather than "Deus ex Machina" ubercharacters, lets player feel they can be powerful, while still accepting that the NPC population can also reach those heights and potentially outnumber them. Obviously Rubies are a special case, but even they should feel just out of reach of players by dint of superior gear and supplies, not totally outside the range of power available.

Meldread's Disclaimer:  I've re-written this post multiple times.  I hope my thoughts come across more... constructive... than Thomas' did.  Also, I have no idea what the DM's plan, plot or do in secret.  This is entirely from my perspective.  

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I don't think people are really understanding Thomas' point, in large part because of the way he chose to express it.  When we left behind the Underdark, the original focus of EfU:A was to be primarily player driven.  Things were to be built from the bottom up (by the players) rather than from the top down (by the DM's).

I think a large mistake in Thomas' argument was to use the Conclave as an example, because that doesn't really shine a light on the concern / criticism.  

That criticism, as I understand it is this:  If you were to place a PC in a position of say, the Count of Old Port or the head of the Armada, giving him the exact same NPC support and political power... what would happen?

Players would plot against him.  Players would attempt to assassinate him.  Players would, perhaps even more importantly, get a chance to interact with him.  However, these thoughts will rarely factor into the decision making or thought process of a player when it is an NPC.  Assassinate the Count?  Most people would OOCly consider you to be suicidal, and not wanting to lose their character, would not aid you - even if they would have otherwise aided you if it were a player.

To give a personal example, on my character Zhong, he rebelled when Ixpadia took over the Colony.  There were a number of issues that caused him to fail, but my biggest obstacle was not something I could overcome as a player.  It is, what I'd name:  The Power of Blue.

I'm fairly confident that, even if I had ultimately failed, I would have had an easier time convincing people to join Zhong in his rebellion had NPC's given him support.  Even if they were lowly peasants in rags, whose best weapon was a rusty spear, the mere presence of having Blue would have sent a message.

Most people in my experience, and I do believe that this is true to a large extent, that certain NPC's will die only with DM approval.  In essence this means it doesn't matter what the players desire, or how hard they work for it.  It doesn't matter how much a player plots, or how badass they become... because in the end, it's entirely up to the DM's.  It no longer resembles a joint collaboration of ideas and characters that come together to craft a story, but rather a story that is restricted by limitations by one side.

In all the years I've played EfU, and throughout my many character's I've interacted with and experienced wonderful DM factions and NPC's.  Yet, I can say with absolute certainty that those DM factions and NPC's make up 1% or less of my total experience.  They acted as a backdrop for player driven plots and stories, and at times - unless it was in our faces and we were directly impacted by them - players outright ignored the backdrop when it suited them.  How many times did our characters dream of turning Sanctuary into something far more than a piddling slave colony just on the edge of existence?  The backdrop said one thing, and yet because it was convenient for us we ignored it and went with another.

That is how irrelevant NPC's are as a whole.  They do little or nothing to drive a story, nothing to drive a plot, and contribute nothing.  They are - in the best of times - useful window dressing to what is actually taking place.

But when there is a perception that an NPC or a DM faction cannot be destroyed it acts as a limitation. An entire plot can and will develop around assassinating the PC Count, because PC's believe such is possible, but will not or rarely develop around a plot to assassinate the NPC Count.

In the end, I think the solution to the criticism I level is obvious.  If all things are possible, and my criticism is ill founded, then the Power of Blue is merely nothing more than an illusion; an issue of perception.

Thus, to correct this perception issue DM's merely need to think of ways to manifest support of PC goals and factions.  If someone was to say, try and establish their own gang in the docks, then perhaps they'd get a few NPC's standing on the street corner with their gang's tag above their head. Even if it is two poor fishermen whose best weapon is a rusty and dull scaling knife, and their armor consists of torn shit-stained rags, the Power of Blue sends a message:  this group has DM support, and if you aid them then the possibility of becoming the top dog in the docks can happen.  

It then effectively becomes like grease to a rusty gear, allowing people to get over their OOC fear of DM's not allowing something, by demonstrating that DM's support it's possibility, meanwhile leaving that possibility in the hands of players.

i like what you said meldread

Rather than try to dress up this fact, I'll be blunt:

The only time we will let you kill an NPC is when it would make the server better, and that is entirely our own decision and not yours.  You could pretty much say that's the underlying reasoning for every "can I kill this NPC?" decision, whether it's a NPC in the wild, a beggar in an alley, or the King of Old Port.  If we don't want you to kill it, we're either going to flat out say "No," or we'll come up with a way for it to not die (and the easiest it to have our NPCs be really strong and chug heal potions, but occasionally we'll have more creative ones like Colonel Spitfire's Tricky Escape Tactic #131).

If a major NPC is the crux of many happenings going on, no, you can't simply walk up to it and kill it with a greataxe.  We have to be ready to fill it's gap and replace it with something.  Maybe that could be you, the player, who is going to fill that gap with the awesomeness your victory will bring.  Maybe it's a player faction, maybe it's another DM faction, or maybe it's just another NPC.  But if we don't think that gap could be filled by you or something else we have in mind, it's simply not going to happen.  If we didn't make that check, all that would lead to is players basically having a race to kill off content until there's nothing left but players themselves (or no players, if the case they pvp'ed each other).  If you think that's sustainable, you're wrong.

As for the conclave stuff, I haven't been a part of it at all but I've watched it's development from the DM side, and I was very impressed and pleased with how much PC inclusion was engineered into it.  There are seriously posts in the DM forums that track this development with referenced PC names and their actions and decisions and how it effected events that have already happened and how it will effect events yet to come!  Perhaps I'm giving away something I shouldn't be by letting out how big of a deal "The Conclave" actually is, as well as the fact that this has been planned for MANY months, but I think it is a really huge, good step that was handled brilliantly by our active DMs.  I expect there to be some players who are completely oblivious to the energy from both players and DMs alike that went into it's fruitation -- that's natural, but I also expect there to be players out there are able to see how it all came together and are hopefully entertained by it and are excited by where it's going to go!

Solid, concrete factions are important to have.  I think it was only a few months ago that someone (maybe it was you, Thomas!) made a long post about how flaky, one-shot plots weren't good for the long run.  I agree 100%.  I hope the new stuff that's coming will give a very solid foundation to play off of that everyone can find some way to enjoy.

[INSERT GIANT WALL OF TEXT THAT COULD BE SUMMED UP IN MUCH LESS ELABORATE WORDS HERE]

Quote from: DeputyCool;156126@Drakkil:

The Syndicate was given -numerous- opportunities to more deeply envelope themselves in the plot, or work against it, or do pretty much anything. The Faction seemed to unanimously decide they would rather do nothing at all.

My point. It wasn't fault of not having a DM behind our backs that the syndicate failed to be a large, main faction. It was basically what scruffy said, RL interfered.

But although not the DMs fault. If we had been a DM faction we would have succeded.

My conlcusion: DM factions help, but are not necesary. Player factions can do fine,

Instead of going into the things you can't do, which have been pretty much summarized already, I'll tell you a bit of what you can do. As the history is right now, we're entering a new period of government with one shiny new DM faction, another soon to come and one faction that's basically been around since the beginning (which too has gone through changes). Obviously, the very first PCs in all these factions will help create the image of these factions; not the NPCs. You have a government on the rise that is going to be led by the people (PCs) that really strive for changes and pursue interesting goals, being allowed the opportunity to change the city itself and how it is to work. You will also note, these are also going to be the leaders of PC factions, able to influence the city to their own agenda and faction.

Beyond that, you still have the abilities to pretty much ignore all this and pursue your PC's own goals individually and rise to fame that way. All possibilities are there for those who make the effort and take initiative. Of course we don't always see what you PC do or what your group is about. That's where the Personal Character Notes section comes in handy, or even approaching one of us on IRC and tell us about what you are trying to do. While we do have our say in how EFU:A is shaped, most of it we have left in your hands. Nothing is unachievable when the efforts are made towards them, but some of them may be very hard. Further your story, further your ambition but have fun while doing so. If there's concerns or thoughts, feel free to address them to us. Maybe you are wrong and we can ease your mind, maybe we are wrong and could do with a reminder?

The end of the note, the possibilities are there. Go wild.

Re:  The Conclave  -  I'm pretty sure it's hugely awesome, and from what little I know ICly I am interested in it... either as a potential enemy, rival, ally, or member with my current character.  If I have one complaint about the Conclave itself, it's the fact that I think it has way to many overpowered NPC's in it's ranks.  I'm not certain of the exact strength of some of them, but I'm pretty sure they could just do whatever they wanted, with no way to actually stop them.  :p

One good thing, and one thing that I really liked about the Conclave was how it was introduced.  It was perhaps one of the better ways to introduce a new DM faction that I have seen done on EfU, ever.  It is always irksome when suddenly, a new NPC with an army shows up out of thin air, with little to no explanation.  The build up was nice, and made the whole thing much more believable.

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Re:  Bluntness  -  I'm glad there is finally some bluntness and honesty on this issue, because we've had this discussion in the past (where I've expressed the same opinion over and over).  The general push back has always been, 'Anything is possible, you just aren't .'

With it cleared up, such statements can now be made with a little asterisk at the end, with a tiny little footnote at the bottom:  "All things -are- possible, if you can obtain DM consent."  

Our difference in opinion seems to come down to how we view the NPC's.  Some people, such as yourself, seem to view them as the crux of many happenings going on," at least in part, whereas I view them more as backdrop.  I want to see things that are largely, if not entirely, player driven.  Certainly, there are events that are greatly influenced by player action for both good and ill.  But such events are largely -driven- by NPC's.  

There is certainly a very strong argument to be made in favor of prominent, powerful and largely static DM factions and NPC's.  They can provide continuity and stability, but there is also a flipside to that coin... one of stagnation, and the feeling (as a player) that you've done everything there is to do already.

Of course, I don't think the argument for continuity and stability can be made all that successfully at the moment, considering that we just went through two separate rulers of the colony, one interim ruler, and are currently under our fourth... all within the space of a few months. :p

I think there are pro's and con's to everything, and perhaps the best solution is a middle ground... and really, that's largely what I seek.  I don't want to see the server to become as you describe it:  "...all that would lead to is players basically having a race to kill off content until there's nothing left but players themselves (or no players, if the case they pvp'ed each other)."  

You are also correct in that I don't believe such a server is sustainable.  But I also think you overstate what would happen.  I think you overlook the deferential treatment players give to the Blue.  In my experience as a player, I have rarely run across instances where players, without provocation, have attacked a Blue NPC.  Even in cases where the NPC most likely deserved it.  Has it happened?  Yes.  However, I would say that this is extremely rare and every case that comes to my mind it has led to awesome things... usually -bad- things, but awesome nonetheless.  

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Ultimately, I would like to see EfU function as follows:  It is a collaborative story between players and DM.  Everyone plays a role, large and small.  DM's exist to provide context and background to the story, whereas players largely determine what happens.  Thus, the players determine who rises to power and who is removed, and it is the DM's who provide the consequences for those actions.  

I think somewhere in there is a middle ground that works.  A middle ground that provides stability and continuity, but at the same time provides enough player feedback that everyone -KNOWS- that their character can do something to influence the server... in both large and small ways.

I agree with meldread, I mean, I can understand why every NPC can't be level 3 or 4 or whatever; that'd be chaos, every random powergamer that logged on would have a hay-day. But I do think that a majority of NPCs should be relatively low level. The cannon-fodder, if you will. As for the important NPCs, yeah they should be hard to kill, but if a player has created a good gank squad that goes through the moderately difficult cannon-fodder, (Level 3-6,) and takes out the insanely infamous/famous whomever, (Level 9-20) then they probably have done something that deserves change; They have involved other players and created conflict.

I should revise my statement about NPCs being the crux of many happenings going on.  While I agree that that is a viewpoint we could take (and perhaps often take mistakenly), I should say NPCs are more of a catalyst.  Not necessarily backdrop, but a base to build stories and conflict off of.  They are the catalysts that let us control "the system."  I'm going to use that buzzword a couple of times here.

Without NPCs and DM factions there's really nothing that can stir or sway the "the system."  If everything was JUST players controlling things, you would get a very static, unchanging system.  Somebody could try to break away from the norm, but because they have no special advantage or special force behind them, they'll just be hammered down or forced back into the norm.  A sociologist can describe this effect better than I can.

By having these magic things called NPCs and DM factions at our disposal, however, we can change the system.  If we see a cool little movement happing, we can stir it up more. We could probably do more of this, but it is hard!  Fortunately, if things are getting bland, we can also introduce our own movements which stir it up yet again.  And now that the system is moving, we can get more players bumping heads and doing cool stuff since it's no longer just one static mass.

And lastly, I'll just throw it out there and say I completely disagree with the idea that a world could be interesting and sustainable if it were entirely player-driven.

i don't really see how you could directly assume that is what it would be. while the existence of npcs is definitely desirable to an extent, i believe it's pretty far-fetched to assume that a mainly player-driver world would be bland.

a special advantage or force would easily prevail in a player's ability to sway the help of other players into a more powerful group to push whatever agenda

Yes, ExileStrife I think that is how I largely view EfU working currently.

However, allow me to draw a comparison to how I view "the system."  It's like sitting in the passengers seat of a car, and giving directions to the driver.  You are influencing the route the driver travels, but in the vast majority of instances, the driver has already determined the destination.

In this comparison, the DM's are the drivers and the players are the passengers.  The destination is effectively the various major plots that take place on the server.  

I may be wrong, but I'll use the Conclave as an example.  From all my interactions with the Thayan Enclave PC Faction, they had worked to intimidate and control PC wizards to one degree or another.  Let's say this line of reasoning continued when the Conclave plot was first introduced.  The Enclave said:  "These wizards are rivals, they must be controlled, and we will do whatever we must to oppose them and their rise to power."

They may have had some success along the way, and there is little doubt that the Conclave would look somewhat different than it does today had they taken that path.  However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that they would have ultimately failed, no matter what they did, and that the Conclave would have come into existence in one form or another.

Thus, to go back to my comparison, the destination was already set from the beginning... it was merely up the Thayans and other players involved as to how they got there.

As most if not everyone knows or believes this to be true, the Thayan Enclave made the only real choice that made sense:  work with and join the Conclave, because any other action would have ultimately resulted in failure.... not because of any action they took or did not take, but because the destination was already determined.

In my ideal vision of how things would operate the situations would be somewhat reversed.  DM's would take the drivers seat when needed, for example, if things are growing stagnant or the pot needs stirring or what have you... but the players would be in the drivers seat the majority of the time.  They would set the destination through their goals.  The passengers seat is occupied both by other players and the DM's.  The DM's would have the most control over how and where the players end up, because they control the background and everything else that goes on.  

Every action has consequences.  If the players united to force out the Armada, there would be consequences to those actions.  The DM's determine those consequences, and even to a large degree how it is achieved in the first place.... because it's unlikely that the players would succeed without NPC support.

However, the critical issue here is that it was players who set the goal:  "Get rid of the Armada; achieve Colonial Independence."  They set the destination, and after that it was their actions that largely made it happen.

In our current system, most players would not consider forcing out the Armada, because they don't believe it's possible.  Therefore, it wouldn't happen unless an NPC rebel showed up to get PC's behind him / her in the first place.  

One of the issues I think we sometimes have on the server is a lack of pro-active players.  People are constantly told, "Go out and do stuff... be awesome."  But because there feels like there is a limit on what you can do and achieve, both alone and in a faction (DM or otherwise), it's hard to come up with something you feel might be reasonably successful.  Otherwise, you'd have to accept that whatever you attempt is going to fail, no matter how hard you work toward success.

I think if more people felt that achieving things (read:  "setting the destination") was possible, and that achieving anything was theoretically possible (read:  "setting the destination, but sometimes finding yourself in a bad neighborhood and getting carjacked"), we would see more pro-active players, because there is a clear incentive and pay off to being pro-active.

The fact is that the DM's are going to run plots, and yes, those plots are going to have determined terminus'. I could have designed half of a faction, and hoped against hope that players filled in the blanks, but we would be having another discussion about how the faction was poorly defined and lacked substance.

What I am trying to say is, in my 5 years of history in NWN no one is ever completely satisfied, with anything, ever.

Not to sound like a child, but it is incredibly disheartening to have put literally -months- of effort into this, only to have people use it as the basis for a discussion on how terrible X is.

And whats worse is that primarily the people who have an issue with it, are not people who A) Had much of anything to do with it, or B) Don't play at all.

My main point is that if your issue is that some things are railroaded, then get over it. It's been that way forever. If your issue is that some NPC's are OP, that too has always been the case. Did people pick fights with Azzam, or Barkely? Do you think anyone could have killed Grigor Starag in a fight? What about the fact that all of EFU's Factions were completely 100% predetermined, and remained static for 2 years. No one seemed to have an issue with that.

EFU has always been, and will always be, able to be dramatically set by PC's. But, there is an extent. The DMs will always have plots, and factions and things that are going to happen, because if we don't make up the story, there simply won't be one that everyone can get in on. PC plots are fallible (Not that DM Plots are not). They have issues that DM Plots can avoid (mostly, visibility.). I refuse to feel guilty that I made a faction, and it came to being, and yes, it would have come into being whether or not PC's tried to stop it. Had they, though, things might have turned out -differently- and there certainly would've been a story involved. EFU is about that story, not about whether or not your PC get to decide the face of the entire landscape of the server.

Quote from: DeputyCool;156189Not to sound like a child, but it is incredibly disheartening to have put literally -months- of effort into this, only to have people use it as the basis for a discussion on how terrible X is.

I don't want you (or any other DM's) to feel disheartened.  For me, the Conclave was more-or-less the best thing to come out of recent events, and as I said above, was perhaps the best roll out of a DM faction ever.  (In large part because they didn't just show up out of nowhere with a ready-made army, as sometimes happens with new DM factions.)  Aside from my issues with the number of seemingly high powered NPC's, it doesn't even really hit my radar.  Also, I think such a DM faction was sorely missing, and in the past advocated for a creation / elevation of a PC faction that fulfilled its role.  

And on the point of overly high powered NPC's... well that charge could also easily be leveled at the Armada.  (Or even worse... the Rubies.)

My posts are made in large part, because I want to be constructive to try and make things better, not necessarily because I think things are awful.  (I don't.)  I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I certainly don't know what it is like to be an EfU DM and what goes on behind the scenes.  Although, I am confident that many DM's work hard, and I don't want the impression given (by my posts or others) that there is a sense of people being ungrateful.  I don't think that exists, but I can understand why reading any negativity would be disheartening.

Quote from: DeputyCool;156189The fact is that the DM's are going to run plots, and yes, those plots are going to have determined terminus'. I could have designed half of a faction, and hoped against hope that players filled in the blanks, but we would be having another discussion about how the faction was poorly defined and lacked substance.

What I am trying to say is, in my 5 years of history in NWN no one is ever completely satisfied, with anything, ever.

You're definitely right on the last point. :p  I've never met anyone (anywhere) whose completely satisfied with anything, ever.

My suggestions / constructive criticism is more aimed at things I'd think would improve the server as a whole.  I just think the way you're looking at things is very different from the way that I see it, which leaves me believing that I'm not getting my point across effectively.

I don't think DM's shouldn't run plots, and that those plots shouldn't have a goal attached to their end.  They should and there is nothing in my mind wrong with that.... but it's the difference between having the powers a DM vs a player.  Because DM's have so much power, and the ability to influence and control everything, if DM's become more focused on running their plots it has the ability to suck the oxygen out of PC plots.  

What I would like is for people to step back, and look at the ramifications of their actions.

To give an example:  There is a PC who has been working for a week, three weeks, a month or more on their own plot.  The PC struggles to get people interested in their plot for whatever reason, but let's assume it isn't because their plot idea sucks.  Let's just assume it's awesome, but for whatever reason, they're struggling to get people involved.  

Then a DM creates an NPC to run a plot of their own.  (Not talking DM faction here, but a minor plot that might play out over the course of a couple weeks.)  That NPC, because it is a DM, (the Power of Blue) is instantly able to attract more attention than that single PC has been able to attract in weeks.  

How does that make the player feel?  I've been there, done that, it sucks ass.  It makes you feel as if you've wasted your time, and depending on how hard you've worked it can be more than disheartening.  I think most of us have been in that situation before, and can think about how that feels... and how, as a player, you wish you could attract that type of attention to what you wanted to do.

So I would ask this question:  What is more conducive to creating a happy and thriving community?  The DM going off and running their own minor plot, or seeing that a PC is struggling to get interest in theirs, and then helping that PC attract interest by wielding the Power of Blue in their favor?

In the end, I believe that this type of focus, one that empowers players, would ensure that our community not only grows but thrives.

Hey man, everyone loves having the power of the blue. It's the nature of the beast that the dms will always be able to move plots better.

I think one of the perks of joining the DM factions is getting that power of the blue, dude. You get much more access to the NPC support of what you are doing.

Otherwise, if you're that struggling PC and you want blue power, send in an app, post in the journal forum, go out and find dm's to support you. If its awesome, I think one will. There are avenues already set up for this kind of thing.

I think you have a habit of ignoring the setting, the NPCs, and the story Meldread, and the expectation that quantum physics will somehow turn your visions into reality with elbow grease, diluded players, and levels. We've made you fishes a river, you like swimming, so why do you want to take the harder path and asphyxiate on the river bank while trying to walk?

We have problems, certainly, the biggest being a failure to encapsulate the awesome of our setting in a way that everyone can swallow and trip out too. It seems like you just don't get it, which is a shame. I was burned out on EFU:A, done with playing, but I liked the community and had the luxury of the DM door being open for me. I wanted to give back for a month or two and retire from the game. I read over the forums, I got inundated with backstoyt, and all of a sudden DMing was the last thing on my mind. I just wanted to play in the really amazing world that my fellow DMs had created and populated. You are not seeing the amazing. That is the heart of your post. Maybe you're not looking hard enough, maybe we've hidden things too well, I don't know.

Quote from: Minmaxed Librarian;156139If a DM decides something needs to be stepped on, doing it with a squad of L8 Elite Stygians, Conclave Mages etc. seems a more elegant way of doing things than single NPCs that are higher level and better equipped than any player can aspire to. Representing power with numerous strong goons, rather than "Deus ex Machina" ubercharacters, lets player feel they can be powerful, while still accepting that the NPC population can also reach those heights and potentially outnumber them. Obviously Rubies are a special case, but even they should feel just out of reach of players by dint of superior gear and supplies, not totally outside the range of power available.

Sounds good but the truth is one half decent player with the right potions can stomp 10 generic NPCs easily. One DM cannot control without excessive pausing a squad of NPCs and so we usually just possess one, buff him up then go in. Its the easiest way to represent the force. If you have a viable alternative to this let us know.

Quote from: "Meldread"That is how irrelevant NPC's are as a whole. They do little or nothing to drive a story, nothing to drive a plot, and contribute nothing. They are - in the best of times - useful window dressing to what is actually taking place.

Wrong. NPCs are a key component of the setting and most of them are actually more colorful than the majority of PCs. They have systematically driven stories and been central to a whole host of plots since EFU's inception years ago. They are not window dressing, they are just as relevant as PCs in the gameworld. Not sure how you could possibly come to any conclusion otherwise.

Quote from: "Meldread"Thus, to correct this perception issue DM's merely need to think of ways to manifest support of PC goals and factions. If someone was to say, try and establish their own gang in the docks, then perhaps they'd get a few NPC's standing on the street corner with their gang's tag above their head. Even if it is two poor fishermen whose best weapon is a rusty and dull scaling knife, and their armor consists of torn shit-stained rags, the Power of Blue sends a message: this group has DM support, and if you aid them then the possibility of becoming the top dog in the docks can happen.

PCs and PC factions have got NPC support since the beginning of EFU:A. There have been so many instances of this; it really is mind boggling how you can infer it doesn't or won't happen. Blackhearth anyone? The fact is only excellent PCs and PC groups will get NPC support (if they desire it). If you could cite an example of any amazing PCs or PC groups that failed to receive DM support then perhaps we could move onto a proper debate rather than merely spew vague generalities all over the forums in overly long essay format.

Quote from: "Meldread"If I have one complaint about the Conclave itself, it's the fact that I think it has way to many overpowered NPC's in it's ranks. I'm not certain of the exact strength of some of them, but I'm pretty sure they could just do whatever they wanted, with no way to actually stop them.

So you admit you have no real clue but ascertain things anyway? I am confused. In any case, you are wrong. The NPCs are not overpowered at all, if you must know. And, even if they were, what is wrong about having high level NPC leaders? Did you plan on killing them or something? Why do you lust to be able to be in a position to kill every NPC so badly? It is just perplexing.

Quote from: "Meldread"I think somewhere in there is a middle ground that works. A middle ground that provides stability and continuity, but at the same time provides enough player feedback that everyone -KNOWS- that their character can do something to influence the server... in both large and small ways.

Are you suggesting we are not at that stage? That players are incapable of influencing the server in large or small ways?

QuoteTo give an example: There is a PC who has been working for a week, three weeks, a month or more on their own plot. The PC struggles to get people interested in their plot for whatever reason, but let's assume it isn't because their plot idea sucks. Let's just assume it's awesome, but for whatever reason, they're struggling to get people involved.

If the PC is struggling to get people interested then its for a reason. Either his plot is boring/uninspiring or he is just not a very dynamic player. There are no magical "for whatever reasons", its either one or the other, or a bit of both.

And yes, one thing most have to realise is that being epic and incredibly strong is earned, you do not just stand up to being one.

The strong NPC that often lead factions are there, portraying something like a years experience, similar that normal PC characters have just began having when they start their stuff.

There is always a possibility for leader positions in big factions and having some kickass power of influence, you just can't expect to get it just like that. Having such a person needs stable player, character and a concept that would have somekind solid influence to that faction, because if we only had PC leaders, it would be horrible how it changes every god damn two weeks, which is ridiculous. In the end there would 100% surely be few of leaders that are inactive, not available all the time, they get kicked ass by next corner thug and overcome again while they have just began something... etc.

NPC's are there for a reason; to secure a certain structure of the faction and it's activity, also giving somekind assurance for continuing of the story and new development.

What amazes me is that the people complaining on this post seem to view the DMs as the enemy. There are stories, there are plots, EfU will not work without NPCs to move things along, without DM factions to be proactive in!

I think people are simply being revolutionary for the sake of wanting argument, but 1) the guards have to be strong. If a group of 10 PCs could kill them all and become KINGS OF THE COLONY, the server would not work! As Strife said, PCs killing NPCs and then killing each-other does not make for a cool server.

2) PCs have played positions of power. Governor Ortred who commanded the Colony, Master of Arms Ferdinand who basically controlled the Armsmen, Retainers who could swing just about anything. But you'll notice they're all active positions of support. If someone could play the Count of a far-away City, all they'd do is sit in a room signing things and being deliciously evil

3) I, and I know a lot of other players who've spoken in this thread and haven't, think that everything is OK. We think (in varying degrees) that the Stygians are about the right level, that PCs are given the right amount of power and that NPCs are, for the most part, a very good part of EfU.

Finally, this server is INCREDIBLE! So much effort goes into it, so much time expended to create a game, for free, for us! And it's not even just effort, they've made something amazing, comparable to some of the best fantasy novels there are!

And it works, and PCs can be a collosal part of that, PCs are always the biggest part of that, because this isn't the DM's playground. So it may be imperfect at times, but when the DM team exerts the amount of effort they do and people are basically saying they don't want their help in making this world work, it makes me wonder whether people understand who gives us this server and works solidly, day after day, without pay, for our entertainment.

Rant over.

After seeing some of the arguments, I'll apologize.

I was not in the brightest of moods when starting this. It has to do with the fact I feel like (despite not even playing) that the dms were neglecting player factions etc...that and I needed to cause a stir over something.

I apologize DeputyCool, it's just something I needed to get off my chest atm.

I think Meldread brings up some good points myself...
 
Only MhO but... I made a PC specifically to join the Syndicate and be my main only to find out they had no spawn point and couldn't rest. Can somebody tell me what good a wizard faction that can't rest is worth? Sorry, not going to pay 10 gold a pop to use spells in a RP situation. It's one thing to do it before or after questing but not every time you use simple spells for RPing something. When brought up in threads and to DM's it always got a "Will look into it" response. So my Syndicate PC faded away.
 
As far as NPC's. Umm.. How about throwing one or two at the PC factions. (Tell me again how many NPC's the Steel Fists have?) It wouldn't hurt to toss an NPC into some of the more active or longer lived PC factions or maybe even a cool new PC faction concept that got DM attention from the get-go like the Bitch-Queen thing. I mean come on, DM factions start out with dozens and we're told they're needed only to have PC faction have to beg and kiss ass to get any at all or even one.

Sigh.  I typed another long ass post, but decided against posting it.  In my previous posts, I worked hard to be both fair and as constructive as possible.  I can't really say anything new at this point, and it would just be regurgitating what I've already said.  If you don't understand or you can't comprehend what I'm writing yet, there is little more I can do to help you.

So at the risk of continuing a debate that we've had in the past, that can go on forever, and in the interest of not saying things that hurt people's feelings... I'm just going to let things stand for themselves.  

You can choose to read what I wrote, try to understand what I was saying, or you can ignore it and do whatever suits your fancy.  If you've already made up your mind, there is nothing I can do to change it, and thus I won't waste my time.

lol Cricket.

The Syndicate got a FREE faction house.

Yes, they do not pay for it. And they never did. Not a single gold.

And it is filled with cool shit and history from the beginnings of the server. Not to mention its own quest and various NPCs.

I don't think you should whine that you don't get to rest free too. If you want free rest save up and become a patrician. Don't cry because you didn't get enough things for free. Joining a faction shouldn't be because you want some perk to make your life easier. Your character should have an agenda that it pursues and aligns with that faction's.

Ya know what... nm, not worth it...

To clarify, there IS even a free rest point for the Syndicate, and has been there since the Archaeological Society days. There's just not a spawn point. The spot tagged as a rest area is right next to the camp-bed in the back room of the Syndicate. You just need to make sure you're close enough and are flagged as a faction member.

The Syndicate also is interesting as it's effectively a "retired" DM faction. The Library started off as the Archaological Society, a DM faction run by Sternhund. When Stern wasn't able to spare the time for a DM faction any more, he let it wind down to a PC faction with some nice perks and special areas, rather than end it totally. I think that's laudable, but it up to players to keep whatever holds the Library as an active and enjoyable faction.

With that in mind, I made David in order to spark the Syndicate back into action again. If you want more involvement, talk to me IC or OOC for ideas of plots or stuff to write about.

Quote from: Minmaxed Librarian;156235You just need to make sure you're close enough and are flagged as a faction member.

I wish I had a dime for every time I heard this. I believe it was Talir that IG/IC could not "flag" my PC for that rest area. It made the PC in question (who had an "agenda" and personality) a bit useless. Even rattle shack guild houses have rest areas and they're not (as Dash so nicely put it)

Quote from: Dashfilled with cool shit and history from the beginnings of the server. Not to mention its own quest and various NPCs.

Sorry, but I am a member and player here (or was). Weather anybody else has done what I have or not is besides the point. At least one player (me) has abandoned the Syndicate due to the DM's having more important things to do than care about a random PC's needs.

Personally, I like what the Conclave has done. My biggest regret was always that  I'm not on when things are happening. I'd come on in the evenings (my time) and few people would be around and I'd missed so much plot RP with both PCs and DMs.
 
 
As former leader of the Syndicate, I saw two glaring errors the folks at the Thayan Enclave did not make:
 
One, there needs to be faction members of the Syndicate (ie bannered to it). People who split their time between two or more PC factions are wasting their time in my book. (again IMO) The faction should get that rest area set up and use it, as well as the chest reset so it can be used by members.
 
The second was as I said before, the leaders (at least) need to have the ability to be around when things are going on. To make the Syndicate's presence known.  Mistakes I made that hopefully the new leadership will learn from. At one point there were 22 active members of the Syndicate, you would have never known it, right?
 
The Conclave is an interesting unification of Wizards and such. I like the clouded purpose it has. I also like the stated neutrality of it. It does in fact cover the majority of the Syndicate's initial goals. That only offers the Syndicate a chance to expand, or redirect it's goals.
 
 
Just my 20 cents. (inflation you know)
 
SB

Quote from: Caddies;156208If the PC is struggling to get people interested then its for a reason. Either his plot is boring/uninspiring or he is just not a very dynamic player. There are no magical "for whatever reasons", its either one or the other, or a bit of both.

Maybe that's part of the issue. A struggling PC that receives just a little DM 'public' attention will suddenly draw crowds, whereas a struggling PC that DMs look down unto and say "hum, he's not doing well enough" certainly won't get anywhere.

Maybe one way to phrase it would be: it's not great players that need DM support, it's the others. Sure: great players 'deserve' DM attention. Sure: DMs prefer doing what they enjoy and not what "others" enjoy. Sure DM attention is limited anyways (RL, playing times, time zones, whatever). But maybe it could be a win-win situation if helping out "not so great concepts" was tried more often. It's worth a try anyways.
 
Another thing that pops on my mind reading some posts: all DMs will tap players on the shoulder for good rp, give out dm loot. But few will "go public" and give out a signal that he's interested in such and such faction.

Another thing that comes to mind: DMs are chosen amongs the most pro-active players, so basically it does tend to take the most involving players "out of the game" for DMing, leaving us poor mortals with no more Caddies, Daz, etc. to tag along with... except when they decide they actually prefer playing than DMing. No offense meant to other pro-active players ;)

On a last note, when i read DMs saying they are disheartened, then on behalf of the eternally unsatisfied people:
- first i certainly want to apologize because we know the work you put into that game. Concerning the Enclave, everyone likes it, it probably just sparked some recurrent debate, that's all.
- second, don't take it for yourself or whatever: it's just us being so excited about something we like, we just can't get enough of it.
- third, this specific thread was much more polite and constructive than many i've read. People expressing "feelings" more than "facts", perhaps, but trying to voice out something calmly, so that's encouraging
- fourth, the last thing we want is DM burnout ;) !

You know, there is a very clear and concrete example of when the "power of blue" was violated: the Isle of Bliss and the Sated Shark Inn.

When that area was destroyed by a PC group, it had the following side effects:

1) It nearly completely eliminated the oldest and most significant faction on the server (IMO, at least) the Seekers.
2) It killed a PC who had escaped the Underdark and earned a place as an NPC in that inn.
3) It removed a strategically important safe zone that all but wrecked any chance that the opposing PC faction had at mounting an effective opposition.
4) It removed a cool and flavorful quest from the server.
5) It removed a cool and flavorful rest and role-play area from the server.

What's more, if the destruction of the Sated Shark provided any tangible benefit for the PCs who accomplished it, I am not aware of it. Even if it did, the benefit was for that PC group and that group alone, and only for the short lives of those PCs. No one else got anything good out of that. On balance, the overall impact of that event on the server as a whole was a net minus.

It would be a fairly easy thing for one PC to sneak into the Starwood and completely raze the place with fire magic. But that would completely suck for everyone but the PC doing it, and the DMs would be entirely right to spawn dozens of angry high-level druids to foil their plans.

As with absolutely everything else on this server, the success of your endeavor hinges entirely upon your ability to involve others and make things fun for as many people as possible. Yes, you can kill Zarano Seuspur, but as ExileStrife said, you'd damn well better have some idea of who or what is going to take his place, why he needs to die, and why that's going to make things more interesting and fun for the playerbase as a whole.

"struggling pcs fuck off and die, all hail the supreme pcs"

I was very concerned for the way EFU:A was going for some time.  Yet, after playing and allowing the server to be what it is, I do see that is has/is turning around ALOT and the factions/events happening are filling gaps and making room for great story.  Often players want things handed to them, I have been guilty of this, without earning it.  You need to take risks and make YOUR character's story awesome so that they earn the respect needed to be a famous/infamous.  No one is born a bad ass.

Sure you will need DM help sometimes.  All you have to do it sit down, write something up, and show the DM your ideas.  They will often work with you and let you know what can be done and what cannot.  Also they will do what you need if you maybe set a time aside that works for both of you.  Patience is often something players do not have, I am also guilty of this.

Finially, you as a player can fight NPCs.  If you really had a great story reason that opened up new opportunities... you just COULD stomp the Stargazer Village into dust, making them scatter or whatever happens.  Most NPCs are not invicible, they may be tough, but get support and supplies.  Work hard, hell you yourself CAN GAIN NPC support if you wanted to go that way.  Use those 'powerful NPCs' for your advantage.  Think outside the box and do what you have to.  Fear is often the reason most things never get done.

Over the years I've played NWN worlds, I've found one common rule to factions. Activity is lifeblood. DM activity is 'easier' (albeit, harder to get) to have keep up general activity throughout a faction, when they know there is a reward if they do it.
 
The thing I've seen elsewhere thats caused factions to keep it up was a Faction DM. His main duties were in soldifying the faction system (giving requirements and rewards for numbers of active members and the like), but mostly, each faction was able to choose a block of time on a certain day. One hour or so, where the faction would provide what they wanted to do earlier in the week ('We want to go investigate the caves on the other side of the little village!", and they'd go. (And if they didn't provide a goal, they MIGHT get a random event, or just have wasted their weekly chance) Now, they (and we!) can go exploring any time. Most don't, because theres no real reward after the first time. If there was a higher chance of interaction, you'd see more people doing it.
 
Summing up, i'm not saying devoting a DMs time like this would work for EFU or even be possible, but even minor amounts of DM time make a huge change in how a PC faction will approach the world.

House Proverson, House Mendon, the Thayan Enclave, the Lathanderites, the Aumantories, the Leviathan's Lament dudes.

I know this might sound like a basically dickish list, but I think the main points from the players here are that the PCs do not get support, or the PCs get pushed idly aside when the BIG BAD PLAYERS come and crush.

I would say Proverson was the second most politically powerful person on Ymph, in his time. It gained an estate and did a crazy amount. Mendon became Vice-Consul of the Colony, second only to a 6 charisma Dwarf called Burt.

I would say EfU was, save for some small events, static. I would say EfUA is, as much as can be hoped for something on NWN, completely dynamic.

Players can become the bigshots and I don't believe they achieve such solely by grace of riding upon the back of a DM movement and I think a lot of this is people picking at straws that can't be changed and just makes you sound ungrateful.

NPCs -have- to be powerful, otherwise they'll just die to Franky the Knife, who's got all his buddies and himself up to level 9 and want to become Kings of Ymph. However, the Rubies were about 5 in number and effectively useless unless you wanted to make an announcement of "I AM THE COUNTSLAYER", and you're completely ignoring the fact that those 5 men were all that the Ziggurat had in the past month.

And, I'll be blunt, if a PC pushing a plot doesn't get success, that plot does not deserve to be picked up, given a glory horn and pushed by DMs, because that just takes away the power that PCs can achieve, which is what a lot of you are complaining about in the first place.

I don't mean to toot my hat, though.

I think part of it may come down to personal responsiblity. I know the DMs are available in IRC and are often willing to help with a concept if asked. I also know that many of the people who may seem favored by DMs have no qualms about asking them for RP or help with things.
 
I agree some people may be more fun to RP with or for than others, it's just the nature of RPing with 50+ people. I'd suggest asking the DMs for help, maybe some direction. In my experience, they've been very accomodating and willing to help. I think that once a DM sees your willing to accept help (because not everyone is) they may take an interest in the faction at hand (or PC).
 
I've had DMs ask me if they could run things for factions, and had them flat out tell me certain ideas I've had wouldn't work. I guess what it comes down to is:  ask a DM, maybe two. I suppose the only issue if it ever happened would be, if you asked DMs and they turned you down or said no. But I can't really imagine that happening.
 
That's just my IMO of course.
 
SB

Quote from: Lulzebub;156249You know, there is a very clear and concrete example of when the "power of blue" was violated: the Isle of Bliss and the Sated Shark Inn.

When that area was destroyed by a PC group, it had the following side effects:

1) It nearly completely eliminated the oldest and most significant faction on the server (IMO, at least) the Seekers.
2) It killed a PC who had escaped the Underdark and earned a place as an NPC in that inn.
3) It removed a strategically important safe zone that all but wrecked any chance that the opposing PC faction had at mounting an effective opposition.
4) It removed a cool and flavorful quest from the server.
5) It removed a cool and flavorful rest and role-play area from the server.

What's more, if the destruction of the Sated Shark provided any tangible benefit for the PCs who accomplished it, I am not aware of it. Even if it did, the benefit was for that PC group and that group alone, and only for the short lives of those PCs. No one else got anything good out of that. On balance, the overall impact of that event on the server as a whole was a net minus.

To clarify, the Sated Shark was going to be removed from the module by DMs because it didn't fit. A pleasantly cartoonish bubbly little inn with hot tubs beneath palm trees outside, a veritable slice of homey paradise, on an otherwise dark and dangerous jungle island? Didn't make sense. Even the DM who created that area agreed it was out of place. And so, rather than merely deleting it, Mort ran a mini-plot regarding it and involved one of the at-the-time major PCs and his crew on the server in its destruction. Sorry if this offended you!

QuoteI wish I had a dime for every time I heard this. I believe it was Talir that IG/IC could not "flag" my PC for that rest area. It made the PC in question (who had an "agenda" and personality) a bit useless.

So your PC was rendered 'useless' because you couldn't rest for free? I do not understand. In any case, Talir was a new DM at the time and probably wasn't up to scratch with how to wand you properly. You should have merely asked another DM. But mostly, I think you are either being dramatic. If your PC REQUIRES free resting not to be 'useless' than you need to be putting more thought into your PC concepts.

---

As for the general vibe of 'DMs should reward not-so-great concepts' with the 'Power of the Blue'...why would we do that? Rewarding mediocrity was never a part of the EFU philosophy and never will be. I mean, practically, it would go something like this:

Someone create 'Jurg the Black', a min-maxed half-orc whose agenda is becoming the king of the Gobsquat. His goals are forming a crew of bandits who mindlessly kill PCs to amass a fortune and 'badass' reputation so he can then go on to kill all the goblin NPCs and set himself up there. What you're asking is we give him some NPCs and support?

Or what about Jeffrey the botanist. His PC wants to go around Ymph and collect seed from all the native plants and plant them in his own area to collate information. He wants a DM to give him information on all the different types of plants and to watch him as he wanders the island collecting seeds. He needs these seeds spawned in his inventory too. He also would like an area on the module he can use to plant them in a large garden. Do you want us to follow this incredibly boring PC around while he does incredibly dull things and reward him with a free area so that this otherwise 'struggling' PC can get some PC recognition as an amazing botanist?

I could make a thousand more examples, less or more extreme. But the fact is this:

DMs have limited time. We don't get paid. And so, we tend to follow around and give support to those players and PCs who embody what the EFU philosophy is all about: playing unique and quirky characters with interesting agendas and involving goals that foster memorable conflict (PvP or otherwise) and involve others. These PCs are exciting to watch and have deserved DM attention by virtue of the depth of their character and his agenda.

This is not going to change.

And so, my advice to everyone is this: focus less on worrying about what PCs are getting what from which DMs, writing long-winded posts on forums about 'the state of EFU' when your information is incorrect and spreading negativity in secret IRC channels.

Instead, focus on just making a sweet PC. You don't have to be a great leader (trust me, playing an awesome minion is much more fun and less stressful!) or have a "30 steps to become the next Count of Old Port" elaborate goal system. Just make your PC interesting. Give him some odd habits, some weaknesses, a personal code, things like this. Give him an agenda. Have him stand for something, believe in some ideal, work towards some tangible goal. Make sure the goal is not boring (ie the botanist) and that it necessarily will be oppositional on some level to other PCs, so that you have a reason to join someone who shares your PC's goals loosely or failing that, a reason you can rally PCs to you.

Quote from: Caddies;156289So your PC was rendered 'useless' because you couldn't rest for free? I do not understand. In any case, Talir was a new DM at the time and probably wasn't up to scratch with how to wand you properly. You should have merely asked another DM. But mostly, I think you are either being dramatic. If your PC REQUIRES free resting not to be 'useless' than you need to be putting more thought into your PC concepts.

I think the player in question believes he needed free resting for the second puzzle quest in the Library.  Without spoiling it, it would be reasonable to come to that conclusion if you don't know how to solve it.

Also as a side note regarding the Library puzzles:  I spoke to Stern awhile back, as I had advanced as far as you could go... and he told me that they weren't completed.  He had plans which he decided not to pursue.  As a result, outside of fun and entertainment, it's pointless to do the puzzles until a DM decides they want to do something with them.

Quote from: Caddies;156289As for the general vibe of 'DMs should reward not-so-great concepts' with the 'Power of the Blue'...why would we do that? Rewarding mediocrity was never a part of the EFU philosophy and never will be. I mean, practically, it would go something like this:

Someone create 'Jurg the Black', a min-maxed half-orc whose agenda is becoming the king of the Gobsquat. His goals are forming a crew of bandits who mindlessly kill PCs to amass a fortune and 'badass' reputation so he can then go on to kill all the goblin NPCs and set himself up there. What you're asking is we give him some NPCs and support?

Yet, it's those people who are mediocre or who suck who need the most help.  Really, Caddies think about it.  Not everyone on the server is going to be great.  In many cases, I don't need DM assistance to get people interested in something I want to do... other people might struggle to get people involved.

Yes, it might be because their idea sucks, but that is one reason the DM's have been picked from the best of the player base.  You can take their shitty idea and make it awesome.

To take your example:  Obviously, we don't want Jurg the Black the min-maxed half-orc killing off PC's to accomplish his goals.  In large part because it isn't fun for other people.  Now, you can approach this two different ways.  You can look at what Jurg is doing and say, 'I don't want to reward him with DM attention because I don't want to encourage his behavior...'  Or 'I will show Jurg the consequences of his actions.'

If killing people brings about greater rewards than letting them live then people will be inclined to kill.  You don't want to reward them in that fashion, but Jurg's actions do have consequences.  First, he'll most likely face some type of exile or on pain-of-death should he show his face anywhere near an NPC who will enforce the law.  That limits his travel.  Second, he'll have a bounty on his head.  

Now, what can you do as a DM to influence Jurg's plot and involve other people?  I'd say create a bounty hunter NPC who tries to get other PC's who are capable of fighting Jurg and then having a quest in which people try and collect the bounty on his head.  

Alternatively, if Jurg is so awesome that most players would be stomped going up against him; you can have NPC bounty hunters lead him into a trap set by the Stygian Armada.  

In effect this has three benefits:  First, makes Jurg's past and potential victims feel as if there is some sort of justice involved.  Jurg cannot act with impunity.  Second, it makes Jurg's player feel like the DM's are paying attention to him.  Third, it doesn't reward Jurg for his actions.

On the flipside, let's say Jurg is really causing problems.  His actions have the potential to drive people from the server.  What could you do to as a DM to put a stop to it?  There are two basic things:  You could OOCLy tell Jurg to stop, tell him his character concept sucks, and that he's ruining the game for others.  This could have the effect of chasing Jurg away from the server; as we all know one bad character concept of this nature does not necessarily mark the scope potential for a player.  Or you could wield the Power of the Blue to help steer Jurg in a different direction.

Since you know Jurg is looking to recruit bandits for his plan, maybe he encounters a mercenary willing to sign up to his cause.  You could then wield the Power of the Blue to steer him away from his actions, meanwhile showing him clearly why doing what he is doing is hurting his cause.  Maybe that former mercenary is an exiled goblin from Gobsquat, making him useful to Jurg because he has insights into how he might accomplish his ultimate goals.

Let's say Jurg wants to hide out in the docks, since he can't visit the Ziggurat (bounty on his head).  Hey, guess what?  Those gangs see Jurg and think he's getting a little uppity.  Maybe he gets a stern message that he needs to begin giving tribute to them in order to avoid having his legs broken.  Eventually, this might cause Jurg to be forced out of the docks and into actual exile in the wilderness.

There are tons of ways of dealing with the character, making the server fun for the player, and ideally making the server fun for others.

Quote from: Caddies;156289Or what about Jeffrey the botanist. His PC wants to go around Ymph and collect seed from all the native plants and plant them in his own area to collate information. He wants a DM to give him information on all the different types of plants and to watch him as he wanders the island collecting seeds. He needs these seeds spawned in his inventory too. He also would like an area on the module he can use to plant them in a large garden. Do you want us to follow this incredibly boring PC around while he does incredibly dull things and reward him with a free area so that this otherwise 'struggling' PC can get some PC recognition as an amazing botanist?

No, I want you to steer this player toward being awesome.  Rather than looking at the PC and saying, 'This character is dull as shit, I'm ignoring him now...'  Why not steer him toward the Stewards?  He could join their faction and the druid PC's could work toward helping him out.  If the Stewards wouldn't work for the character concept, why not steer him toward the Conclave?  

The goal of steering the character in the right direction would be for him to get other players interested in his goals.  Run a quest where Jeffrey the botanist has to travel through the incredibly dangerous jungle in order to study a very rare plant.  That quest could be awesome.  It'd make the player feel awesome, and would require him to involve other people.

Quote from: Caddies;156289Instead, focus on just making a sweet PC.

Here is the fundamental flaw:  Some players, frankly, are never going to be great.  Some will make shitty characters, always.  But ultimately, behind those characters are players who come to the server to have fun.  If you only focus on the most awesome PC's then ultimately what you create is a server of elitists.  That is the consequence of your actions.

I understand that a DM doesn't want to spend their valuable time working with a character who, in their judgment, is boring.  You earned your position as DM because you were an awesome player.  Does it make more sense to use that talent to make a sup-par PC awesome, increasing the enjoyment for that PLAYER (meanwhile involving OTHER players), or does it make sense to merely ignore that player and his or her character all together?  Which act does more to develop our community?

Okay. Both sides have points, and there is -always- room for improvement on both sides.

Let's get over it.

Not many are really going to read that Meldread but I'd totally disagree. What you're pushing for there rewards the reactiveness that makes being pro-active near useless. Why would anyone take risks or go for something massive if they can get the same loot, reward, xp, dm attention or whatever else by sitting in front of the Kingsman tavern being invincible until something is spoon-fed to them. Promoting that kind of behavior is just silly.

I'm not so sure that's what he meant. Just saying.

Who said anything about rewarding people who weren't pro-active?  I think most people who are not pro-active either need a nudge in the right direction, lack clear character goals, or don't know what they can accomplish.  

In Caddies first example, Jurg the Black was pro-active, but in a way that we wouldn't want to promote.  Unless you consider any DM attention at all a reward, then Jurg would constantly suffer from the consequences of his actions.  As a murderer, he can't go onto the Ziggurat.  In the docks, the gangs don't like him because he's a freelancer.  He wants to become King of Gobsquat and so the goblins don't like him.  That pretty much isolates Jurg from the rest of the playerbase and quests.  There are consequences to your actions, and Jurg is experiencing them.

In his second example, Jeffrey the botanist had a clearly defined goal but needed a push in the right direction.  All it needed was the NPC Librarian to send him a letter, to see if the rumor was true:  Jeffrey was a famous / aspiring botanist (whatever is relevant to his backstory).  She just so magically happened to be interested in expanding her collection of books on that knowledge, and would be happy to sponsor an expedition to find a rare unnamed plant located deep in the Elfwood.  She then name drops the newly established PC mercenary group faction which had been publicly advertising their services and recruitment, as potential people to speak to about the expedition.  Suddenly, Jeffrey becomes pro-active because he's now organizing an event and it was all easily accomplished in a single letter.

Furthermore, since Jeffrey's player is so interested in this type of stuff, and most DM's no doubt find it boring as hell, Jeffrey can be leveraged to give names to new plants and lore surrounding them.  That information could then become cannon (saving the DM's work), and in the future incorporated into new herbalism recipes.

Hell, if a DM wanted to extend Jeffrey's usefulness then he'd simply need to have an NPC ranger be hired as a guide for the expedition.  That NPC could then find ways to steer Jeffrey into investigating the Stewards, ensuring that Jeffrey remains pro-active.

With a few continual nudges now and then, Jeffrey could become an awesome character, that goes on amazing and dangerous adventures, deep into the heart of the island (and sometimes beyond!) studying exotic plants.  

However, no where in there was anyone rewarded for not being pro-active.

bring back cybor island

tropical island with secret hidden temple in the old closet. HURRAY

cyber island was a creepy place. everybody believed that the inn's proprietor was an illithid thrall, and that the island was meant to lure unsuspecting visitors to their deaths.

should have stayed in, tbh. the place was creepier than the sunken enclave

Quote from: Kotenku;156402cyber island was a creepy place. everybody believed that the inn's proprietor was an illithid thrall, and that the island was meant to lure unsuspecting visitors to their deaths.

should have stayed in, tbh. the place was creepier than the sunken enclave

Wait, he wasn't an illithid thrall?

Just to keep focus: everyone agrees DM attention to great players is good, needed, deserved.
No one wants attention given to that guy standing outside Kings for stuff to happen, or to that powerbuilt that never does anything special.

But there's that huge middle ground. Those 'average' ideas, plots, players, PCs, that maybe would pick off with somekind of nudge. Maybe even with a nudge they would still fail. Yes that would suck. But maybe they would become great.

Now obviously, DMs have limited time, and that's fine. And everyone appreciates the free work DMs put in for us.

But if it's only “it’s not my point of view”, then maybe you need someone to represent/help/ nudge that other part of the player base that you yourself aren’t interested in.

If it's only “it's EFU philosophy”, clearly defined as elistist and conflict-oriented (and i’m not being pejorative), then why not try to add something more to it? Not delete. Not drastically change. Just add more. Elitist is great when there’s 50 players to choose from. It’s not that great when there’s half that number.

Example:
Obviously, keep the big server History: Fall of sanctuary, Exodus, Building a settlement from scratch, Red Eleint, Ixpedia, etc...
Obviously keep those great plots made by great PCs/ players: De Olid, Proverson, Craddock, etc.
But add: Joe is just a brute and a rogue, with no real goal. Jane is just a botanist, with what you call a boring goal? Hey, how about making Joe steal from Jane? Tie the knot of the small stories.

Example: Joe is struggling to gather his band of thugs. He’s a thief but with a goal, but he’s struggling. You’d usually overlook him. But then you decide to make a burglary quest, and people realize he’s got some attention, and suddenly ‘involving people’ becomes easier,and maybe he’ll even find some clue to another goal on that quest that you’d enjoy more.

Anyways...

This kind of thread, we’ve seen others, tells us not everyone enjoys EfU the same way. Sure, it’s “your server”. Sure it's got a history, a "culture". But at a time when we lost about 50% player base (and more active DMs) in one year, are you willing to go on as if everything was alright for everyone? It's funny the same people who said "change is good" (EfU-> EfUA) are now saying "it won’t change".

Am i a 'herald of doom'? Am i being off topic? Tell me then: Would you say EfU's at it's peak? Still climbing? Or slowly on the down slope? Sure the contents/scripting/DM staff/community/ etc. is great, excellent even. But there's room for improvement, still. That’s what this kind of thread is about.

What’s there to loose, anyway? Will helping out more often “average” plots/players/PCs lessen EfU in some way?

So you don’t want to do it? Sure, each to his own. But how about getting someone who does? Will that break your world apart? Or will that help improve this game we all enjoy?

lol

Caddies cracks me up.  You're making it sound like you need to handhold these boring characters every step of the way. All you need to do  to kickstart something cool and interesting is spend five minutes, make some random NPC for Jeffy the planthugger to talk to, who assigns him the task of finding a couple plants and then learn some herbalism from other players.

EFU:A's playerbase is comprised of players who 7/10 of them would rather be told what to do and be a follower rather than a leader. If you give these people shit to do, they will absolutely rock out. You don't need to hold their hands and babysit them every step of the way, you just need to say, hey here is some shit to do, go do it. If they manage it, cool give them some loot.  This way the players who feel neglected get  dm 'quests' and loot, while you get to spend the majority of your time fondling the sacks of the pcs you love, Caddies

Everybody wins.

I think the DMs are doing a fantastic job and it's really boring to hear people talking about what they -should- be doing to help you have a better completely free gaming experience that they pour hours of effort into.

I don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.)  I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

Even passively trying to do it by paving the way in front of a boring* player is ridiculously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating.  (This being crafting plots, quests, dialogs, etc., that "lead" a player.)  However, sometimes this method actually works, but hooooleeeey-shit is it a lot of work.  But, like I said, sometimes that is rewarding for us.

*Let "boring" encompass Caddies' players for the time being

How to Rock my Socks Off (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19553%22)

As long as you try what's posted here, in a greater or lesser extent, you are more than average. Sometimes we notice you, sometimes we don't. But we're there, feel free to drop a tell in our direction when you want to try something. And have fun. That's all that matters.

Quote from: Talir;156419How to Rock my Socks Off (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19553%22)

As long as you try what's posted here, in a greater or lesser extent, you are more than average. Sometimes we notice you, sometimes we don't. But we're there, feel free to drop a tell in our direction when you want to try something. And have fun. That's all that matters.

Everybody should seriously read this every time they play.

Kind of a tangent, but...

Quote from: ExileStrife;156417I don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.)  I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

Even passively trying to do it by paving the way in front of a boring* player is ridiculously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating.  (This being crafting plots, quests, dialogs, etc., that "lead" a player.)  However, sometimes this method actually works, but hooooleeeey-shit is it a lot of work.  But, like I said, sometimes that is rewarding for us.

*Let "boring" encompass Caddies' players for the time being

Sorry to interrupt, but I've got a question related to this.

What exactly does it take to pull these off? My experiences in similar games to this (hard RP games with many more players than DMs) paint a somewhat simple picture, and as I haven't got a bit of experience DMing NWN, I'd like to know more. For example, the case of Jeffery the Botanist. From what I can tell, this is how it would go:

First, a DM goes through the various character/faction notes, trying to link a handful together to maximize the return on his/her time. In this case the DM settles on Jeffery the Botanist as a decent story force, adding in the new merc outfit on the scene. The DM sends a letter via forum to Jeffery, from a scholar, perhaps from the Conclave, or some foreign party. The letter details a rare herb only found deep in the wood, that possesses an extract with unknown magical qualities. It closes with an offer: If Jeffery will agree to use his specialized knowledge to harvest the plant and bring it back for research, perhaps the scholar's organization will provide protection, as well as recompense for his time and skills.

If Jeffery declines, the offer can be brought to other groups, if any are available. But, let's say he accepts. The DM then sends a similar letter tailored to the merc group, promising pay for transporting Jeffery safely. If they decline for some reason, and the DM can't get another group, NPC stand-ins could be substituted. If they accept, a time is arranged for everyone to be on and embark on the wonderful trip. An average sort of map could be created (the editor seems to be even easier than the TESCS/GECK, but I can't be sure), with various menaces, and perhaps plant-based obstacles for Jeffery to have a bit of fun with. At the end, the herb, perhaps cultivated in a long-lost outpost's garden, valued for it's magic nature, and surrounded by suitably-leveled forgotten supplies and armaments. The group can return to meet with the scholar, who will then take the plant back for research, either removing it from play entirely, or else planting it in a suitable research area, introducing a new reagent and allowing the group to feel that they've made a mark on the server as a whole. Perhaps the plot could carry on, with the implications of the plant's powers making for a small, but present subplot for many.

Such things, I suppose, could stretch or shrink depending on the will behind them. Maybe the nature factions catch wind, and have reason to want to stop the herb from being retrieved. Maybe a shady fellow knows the true nature of the plant, and goes about hiring less scrupulous sorts to get it for himself. Maybe the DMs just aren't feeling it, and simply engineer a short map with two or three programmed plant puzzles, opened at the appropriate time, for Jeffery to go through and enjoy while they attend to other matters.

So... Have I got this right? It does seem like more than a casual undertaking, but I'd imagine that any single player would feel well enough getting perhaps one of these a month, and, server population and group inclusion permitting, it might even happen more often. I can see a few points where I may be underestimating things, in between coordinating events with other DMs, how hard/easy it is to actually make a simple map, and so on. Still, I would very much like to know exactly how it's done.

QuoteI don't think anybody aside from DMs who have tried it understand how outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating it is to blatantly "give a boring* player a nudge in the right direction." (That being communicating with the player directly, in most cases.) I don't think there has ever, EVER been a single success story or happy story when any of us have proactively tried to steer a player towards a better direction.

I definitely feel like I've seen this happen before. The examples others seem to give to steer the botanist or whatever hardly seem 'frustrating,' even in the worst scenario. I for one, miss the days in the underdark where really simple shit by some of the older DMs seemed to spark plenty of enjoyment for others and I out of little. Now, that just doesn't seem to exist or is apparently "outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating."

Quote from: Box;156410lCaddies cracks me up.  You're making it sound like you need to handhold these boring characters every step of the way. All you need to do  to kickstart something cool and interesting is spend five minutes, make some random NPC for Jeffy the planthugger to talk to, who assigns him the task of finding a couple plants and then learn some herbalism from other players.

Alright, so this PC who is struggling with his incredibly boring and non-involving botany 'plot' has a random NPC assign him the task of finding a couple plants. What then? He gets a reward or goes on a quest if he does this? You can see how this wouldn't interest any DM.

He can learn herbalism from other players regardless, and should be doing that as a botanist.

QuoteEFU:A's playerbase is comprised of players who 7/10 of them would rather be told what to do and be a follower rather than a leader. If you give these people shit to do, they will absolutely rock out.

No. No, no, no. DMs don't 'give shit to do' to these PCs. They should follow PC leaders and help them with their agenda. Then, when PC leader and minions are seen rocking out, they have deserved DM attention and will get it. That's how EFU works. EFU doesn't work by DMs rewarding attention and dropping plots and tasks and quests in the lap of reactive PCs who mill outside Kingsmans or get bogged down in the quest loop. You can just erase this mentality and expectation from your mind right now, because this will never happen.

Quote from: derflaro;156434I definitely feel like I've seen this happen before. The examples others seem to give to steer the botanist or whatever hardly seem 'frustrating,' even in the worst scenario. I for one, miss the days in the underdark where really simple shit by some of the older DMs seemed to spark plenty of enjoyment for others and I out of little. Now, that just doesn't seem to exist or is apparently "outrageously difficult, time consuming, demoralizing, and frustrating."

Examples?

Given limited DM time/will DMs will run stuff for people that entertain them or others. Jeffery the Botanist sounds like a scrub. Maybe if he offered his services tending the sick of proactive faction X his story would get DM attention in the scope of a greater server story. Honestly, randomly picking so-so players out of the blue and placing them in plots does not often work. We often place threads that anyone can pick up on though. VP did this with the Ixpadia plot. Anyone could've taken his role as instigator and rebel. Why only 2-4 people contacted Ixpadia and asked to find out more, I do not know, but the players that did not don't deserve a reward unless they actively take a role against the players that did, and successfully defeat them. Kethra Marsk's coalition won a key battle, and decided the course of the war. That is sick!

QuoteExamples?

I'm going to assume you want examples of 'nudges,' as I'd consider myself at subpar pro-activity at points.

 - My first Seeker struggling to involve people in stuff, before Sternhund giving plots/riddles and the like to follow and find other people to do so with.

- My Ordinant, hints as some DM gave to help find thralls, which I'd consider a nudge to conflict.

- I remember Howland making that one giant that swirled around blood and such for our Garagosians, which sparked into reviving an already existing plot I would've not known about otherwise, which I thought was very cool and didn't seem like it took too much to make.

- I remember a pretty stagnant thrall character I made just being told to try to collect town uniforms, which was at least something significantly concrete to stir.

I'm not really going to mention anyone else's I've seen, since they probably recall how their's better than I ever could.

I know that some of these might not entirely fit the bill, and some more extreme to be considered nudges, or not even as fruitful as hoped either by players or DMs. I'm sure there's others I've not thought of.

While the outcomes of some might be less than ideal from a DM standpoint, I think that even some random NPC telling botanist 'yo assemble group and find far away plant' can help a lot. I'm sure most would agree he doesn't need/deserve the greatsword of the crazy gardens to slay the elephant of corrupted vines or something.

Nudges happen all the time.

Holding hand will never happen.

Its a simple question of time. If I could divide myself 30 times, I would give every PC all the attention they deserve for what they accomplish, alas, I can't and my colleagues cannot  as well -- we dont oversee everything and therefore cannot give true justice to every PC.

It is also not true that only great players (whatever those are) will receive attention. I tend to give attention to whoever enjoys it and I can SEE that they enjoyed it.

This isn't our job too, it is a hobby. We try to be fair in giving attention to everyone, and keep tabs... but it isnt very systematic. I wish I had a secretary that kept track of every quest I ran for who, etc. and so on, and who I need to watch out for. but I dont.

 I get the issue, but there is no solution to it... other than go: "I understand your point of view, and how it is frustrating." there is very little I can do outside of it without doing nothing of my life but slaving away on efu. I'm not interested by that.

Quote from: Tanonx;156426Question

You are pretty much exactly right in suggesting what we COULD do there. However, actually doing it is incredibly time consuming and you really have to be in the mood to do it. That's also a description of a "passive" nudge, not an active one. Sometimes those are very successful and we get a great sense of fulfillment out of it, other times it just becomes a monumental waste of time.

Deflaro, you are not a boring* player (usually! :P). I think we've made it clear that it's definitely fun for us to do these sorts of things with non-boring* players. Coming up with cool stuff for somebody who we know will make it even cooler is pretty much the most awesome part about DMing. Making a blind effort to throw a bone out to the boring* players is a major coin-flip that often turns out to be un-fun.

I don't think that Meldread's solution is particularly desirable -- a DM just handing a PC something hollow to do and rewarding him for doing it is essentially just gaming busywork -- the player is rewarded but hasn't really been shown how to be proactive and may not be inspired to do anything further, thus the server gains nothing and the DM gains little or nothing for his time.

The nudge is a far more viable and desirable concept, though unfortunately requires more time and effort than simply handing a player some ready-made interaction. It will, however, push the player to do this and that and show them that DMs aren't only logging in for the 'prominent' PCs. This is more like teaching a man to fish than just giving him a fish and, though it takes more time, the return should certainly be greater. It's an unfortunate fact that the (unpaid, remember?) DMs often haven't got enough time to run these sorts of things, combined with factors such as the innumerable amount of other goings-on to be tracked on the server, updating the module, building new areas/quests, DM and PC factions, flavour writing ... the list goes on.

It certainly warrants a mention that threads like this do very little to improve DM burnout -- I have no idea why people are so upset over a cool faction being made.

In any case, I'd definitely reccommend using the Personal Character Notes section to help DMs keep a track of what your character is up to (certainly makes it easier for them to run you something here and there) but don't stress too much over DM attention -- we're here to play a game!

Hmmm... So, if I'm understanding the issue correctly, it's not so much that the DMs don't want to give the quiet ones a chance, so much as the DMing staff is already up to its ears in work? It would seem to be the root of many issues here, that the DM staff is simply too overworked, and is thus forced to drop the less promising ideas, or else risk all their time spent on something that didn't work out.

I don't suppose a recruiting drive would be in order?

Every time I spend some time away from EFUA I come back to see a new DM or two. There is no rapid means of recruiting that would make everyone happy while maintaining server integrity.

More important, to me, is finding a reliable means of curing DM burnout. >____>

QuoteDeflaro, you are not a boring* player (usually! :P). I think we've made it clear that it's definitely fun for us to do these sorts of things with non-boring* players. Coming up with cool stuff for somebody who we know will make it even cooler is pretty much the most awesome part about DMing. Making a blind effort to throw a bone out to the boring* players is a major coin-flip that often turns out to be un-fun.

In short, while I can and definitely do agree to that, I think that everyone has a point where they don't necessarily play as optimally as they could/should/whatever, and still firmly believe that 'nudges' with a significant or little amount of effort are almost always a decent idea, and they do happen, which is good, the more deserved ones to people that happen, the better.

I still think they should happen more in varying degrees, even to 'boring' yet hopeful characters, as DM time/interest and players with the right  attitude allow. (keeping in mind this probably needs to cater to 50 or whatever players with varying opinions, etc.)

Anyways, I'm sure I'm not capable of changing anyone's opinion here since they seem so very set, so I'll cease posting.

Quote from: ScottyB;156468Every time I spend some time away from EFUA I come back to see a new DM or two. There is no rapid means of recruiting that would make everyone happy while maintaining server integrity.

More important, to me, is finding a reliable means of curing DM burnout. >____>

When almost every single DM you guys recruit either cuts their playing time in a third or stops playing completely within a month or two then maybe some things need to be reworked or at least given a serious second look.

There are countless ways to alleviate some of the burden you DMs face (Public service, answering questions, dealing with bugs, solving disputes, answering complaints, posting in threads like this,  and with the little free time after the trouble... running quests / plots) and I truly think that employing some of those options might be a good idea at this stage of nwn / EFU where new blood is more and more rare.

You will find more happiness in making existing DM plots work for your PCs, then crossing your fingers and hoping a DM plot is made for your PC. There are enough DM plots out there currently (not always, but right now there is a good deal of activity) that if you seek it you can be part of the greater EFU story. If you do not want to be a part of the story, but selfishly want the story to be about you, then you should re-examine your priorities.

Our greatest problem is making the story available to everyone. Our NPCs are very awesome. Have we in all cases portrayed this? No, we've failed. Do some of our NPCs seem too awesome to be real? Yes, but there is obviously more to the story.

Our world of EFU:A is a coherent evolving story. Pay attention to it because it provides the backdrop of the world, and hints to future plots. Season 2 is wrapping up. Season one ended with Sharboneth rule of the colony and the test of Red Eliant. Season two ended with the rise of the conclave and the banishment of Ixpadia to the underdark. What major role will your PC play in the next epoch of EFU:A? That is what I ask myself before character creation.

Core-

There is one simple fact that no one really seems to want to address.

Fact:  There will always be mediocre and shitty players.  I'm sorry, but it's true.  Some people will just never, ever, produce a character that has the potential to rise to equal even some of the more mediocre characters we've had.  It's just a fact that some people are more talented than others.

Meldread's Opinion:  We need those shitty and mediocre players.  They form the base upon which our server is built.  When they leave it directly harms the elite players of our server, because then they have less people to involve in their awesomeness.  

When elite players look around and see less mediocre and shitty players to involve in their awesome, they eventually get bored.  When they are bored, they leave.

As a result success is like a perpetual motion machine.  Success is measured by how many people are having fun, and this can be directly related to population numbers.  The more fun people have, the more people who play, the more people who play and tell others from the server they came from about the awesomeness of EfU, the more people who join our server.  Ultimately, the shitty players through word of mouth attract to us the next great elite player.

Consequently, failure is measured by how many people are not having fun, and this can be directly related to population numbers.  This failure slows the momentum of our server growth, ultimately leads to stagnation and eventually decline.

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I don't deny that this may not be fun for DM's.  I don't deny anything that has been said by those who hold an opposing view to my own (on the whole at least - we could quibble about the details).  However, the above are the facts as I see them.

I believe the approach being sponsored by Caddies and others has consequences.  I essentially view it as trading short term enjoyment for long term enjoyment.  As a player I do a lot of things with my characters that I don't particularly enjoy in the short term (such as questing) because I believe it has long term payoff.  

Thus, it is my goal in posting in this thread to get people - such as Caddies and others - to see the consequences I believe will result from their actions.  Namely, it will lead to a server of elitists, whose numbers continually decline until the server dies off.

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Another consequence I believe has to do with the points Gippy brought up in his post.  (Which I largely agree with being true:  If you attach yourself to DM plots you will have more success.)

That consequence has to do with how new DM's are selected, and I think both Caddies and Gippy are good examples.  Essentially we take our best players and make them DM's.  Our best players are movers and shakers, they are pro-active, they are the driving force behind our server.  Naturally, as DM's they want to continue doing that which they found awesome as players, and as DM's they can... but they are no longer players.

If you look at both Caddies and Gippy's words they're essentially saying this (it is my take away from what they've posted at least):  'Look at our awesome NPC's.  They have amazing backstories.  They are just as important as the PC's.'

Whereas most every player is saying this (including Caddies and Gippy when they were players):  'Look at my awesome character.  He / she has an amazing backstory.'

Even the shitty and mediocre players believe their characters are deserving of attention, even if everyone else on the entire server believes they are not.  People inherently like to think of themselves as important and worthy of attention by others, even if no one else wants to grant it to them.  This is why shitty players leave the server when DM's favor the best players, because the shitty and mediocre players feel slighted, ignored, and overlooked.

It's also certainly possible for both sides to be right.  There can be awesome NPC's AND awesome PC's.  But if you ask me which I would rather have:  Governor Ortred or Governor Sharboneth?  Governor Ortred wins hands down.  Why?  Because I can interact with Governor Ortred on a much more personal level, and do things with Ortred that I could never do with an NPC.  At least not without hogging insane amounts of DM attention and time, which would negatively impact other players.  

What exists here I believe is a philosophical difference.  Great players who go on to be DM's want to continue being great.  Yet, in the end, it is MUCH more productive to the server and community when DM's - instead of trying to be great themselves - help others achieve greatness instead.

I think this thread has run it's course.

I'm going to abuse my power and post in a locked thread -

I just want to emphasize that EFU DMs are all about giving -nudges- to all kinds of characters and players, it's just it's not such a good use of time to construct an elaborate plot for a character that isn't doing much to give back to the server or other characters itself.

For instance, running a quick little DM quest having to do with collecting some herb or whatever could very easily end up taking hours of time.

It is definitely not true that EFU DMs only cater to the superstars, but rather that there's a long list of proactive/fun players (which probably includes everyone reading this thread) who we want to help first.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to coming back and DM'ing for everyone  again.