I'm gonna take a moment to chat with EFU, about EFU, and break some common Taboos. I don't wanna talk to the DMs, I don't wanna talk to the PCs, but I wanna talk to EFU as a whole.
I don't mean any ill feelings to come as a result of this post, but its expected. I do however mean to stir up some aggitation, I'll admit to that. Lately I've been in an EFU Rut. Talked with a lot of PCs and had a lot approach me.
There's a big taboo in EFU about "Questing".
If you do it too much, You're called a shameless power gamer and everything you attempt to do ICly is ridiculed.
If you do it too little, You die to people who do it too more or better.
Hardly fair either way, and there is a lot of emphasis placed on trying to find a middle ground.
In the pursuit of finding the middle ground, I've had a lot of input from a lot of people, from various sides.
QuoteI've had people tell me its better to make a character, and just be awesome until you've died.
I've had people tell me its better to wait until level six or so to really kick your plots and things into gear once you're kitted up and leveled.
I've had people tell me its better to get a group of powerhouses together, and don't log in unless they're around.
I've had people tell me its better to find a good group of quest people to run with, and forget about questing when they're not around.
I've had people tell me its better to do any quest you can, but keep invisibility potions handy and do your best to avoid getting killed.
I've had people tell me its better to have "Two groups", a group you quest with, and a group you RP with, and give balanced time to each.
I've had people tell me its better to just go where the story takes you, and if its more likely for your PC to quest, go for it.
I've had people tell me its better to make sending for quests since folks on IRC can find them, than pursuing other methods of recruitment.
I've had people tell me its better to have a PC faction started before you hit the server, so you don't have to worry about finding a good quest group and good group to plot with.
I've had people tell me its a necessary evil
I've had people tell me its the greatest aspect of the server.
I've had people tell me it was how the game and DnD worked and deal with it.
I bring this up because at present I'm dealing with some issues. In a brief hiatus due to RL, people thought I was without character. As a result I was given a fair few PC concepts. Each one ended in "And then you die".
This left me kinda concerned. There are a lot of PCs who are persistent, who don't take risks. But there are a lot of PCs who say "No risk, no reward".
Looking at the two sides, I find my self easily on the "No risk, no reward" side. But I think that phrase is foolish.
On EFU if you do the most risk, you get the least reward. EFU doesn't support risk taking. It supports the lack of risk taking.
I'm sure this thread will get a lot of backlash, but I know there's more than a few PCs on EFU who feel the same. I'm hoping they'll chime in too, but not the end of the world if they don't.
Which brings me to Taboo #2. The Gank.
Risk takers get killed. The term "Ganksquad" applies. Everyone has heard it. Everyone has at one point or another been in one. Its a group of large PCs, for what ever reason, pursuing a single or limited number of PCs. Incentives are given to Gank squads. Power in numbers. Power in Levels. Power in Gear.
The list and number of PCs who have been "Ganked" is easily prevalent.
How do you fend off the Gank? Quest, gather high level allies, and gather supplies.
What causes the gank? Being Proactive. Proactive criminals get bounties from the law. Proactive law guys get bounties from criminals. Proactive Evil gets hunted by Paladins. Proactive Good gets hunted by Villains
So, I guess this all comes down to a final point.
In EFU, I'd say the scales aren't balanced.Making a PC, if you want to be a risk taker and be pro-active, You can't Rp. It happens, but often under duress. You have to quest, often and plentifully, because folks will naturally try to PvP you.
For some PCs, Months of RP can be wiped out in 10 seconds, so folks try to avoid that. You avoid that by questing. You avoid that by gathering groups of questers. It breeds an atmosphere of discontent and an atmosphere of frustration.
I've been told up and down by DM and PC and the EFU community alike, that EFU is an "RP Server".
After speaking with folks, and this thread...
I'm not really seeing it.
If you quest too much, you're a powergamer.
If you don't, you die to so called powergamers.
If you take risks, you die due to NPC resistance or PC resistance.
If you don't, you're rewarded being able to be around for long term plot
So. Yeah.
When you're sitting around bored, wondering why there are no antagonistic PCs to fight, its because its hard.
Its hard. Its frustrating. Its difficult. The amount of work you put into being an antagonist is not worth the rewards on EFU.
Its more rewarding to quest, "Safe plot" (ie: reactive), and DM quest, than it is to be an antagonist. As an antagonist you get OOC kudos, but ICly the rewards are ridiculously limited.
So, this is my civil disobedience. Raising some points that folks never talk about. I tried my best to keep from being offensive but frankly I think its needed.
EFU tries to say that its good to be "Active", but at the end of the day, being active isn't worth it in many ways.
Proactive gets you dead.
Reactive gets you everything.
I'm not saying EFU sucks. I'm not saying its broken and this isn't a "FUCK YOU ALL I QUIT" Post.
EFU is great, and its far from broken, it just seems out of synch. It needs some fixing in my eyes and many people I've spoken with.
EFU isn't a questing server. Its a part of it, but if you don't do it enough you die, and if you do it too much you're reduced to a sideshow like the Banites were, even though they had lofty pursuits and some grand IC plots and Rp, they got ridiculed for doing nothing but Trogz and other quests.
If you don't quest, you die. If you do quest, you're a monster. If you quest just enough, if you play it safe and go with the flow and don't take risks, you persist.
How can we make EFU more welcoming of folks who step outside the comfort zone of questing?
its easy for me to say this since I've always done it, but I also know a ton of PCs are frustrated. I just seem to be more frustrated than others.
You have to quest. its
REQUIRED by common law. I'm not saying its bad, nor am I saying it should be removed, but there is a HUGE MOTHERFUCKING EMPHASIS placed on it.
Yes I know DND was formed on the idea of questing, but if you do it too much you're some kind of monster, and if you do it too little then you can't stand a chance in EFU.
Too much emphasis is placed on questing, and too much emphasis is placed on not being proactive.
As a result if you quest a bunch and are reactive, you can show up to the DM events.
If you're proactive you get Ganked and don't live long enough to see said events.
Hopefully this spurns some interesting discussion instead of "LOL", "TLDR", and "WTF JUST QUEST".
I for one enjoy questing. I like that aspect of the server. Also, I see you repeat how if you quest you are call 'powergamer' or 'monster' or whatever. Why care what people say? It's a game, do what you have fun doing when you play. If it was fun than it was worth your time.
Also, it's a bit silly to 'crap talk' ICly a guy or organization with no supplies or way to defend youself. Obviously you will get backlash.
I think just playing how you like and what you enjoy makes the game good enough. Not every PC you make will 'win' or accomplish mega insane goals. Things happen... and yes the ganking is sometimes crazy lame. Yet alot of times players bring it on themselves by making way to many enemies to quickly with not enough allies.
Oh and we tried to get you on board with a concept that didn't involved "and then you die" but you were not interested! :P
QuoteI've had people tell me its better to just go where the story takes you, and if its more likely for your PC to quest, go for it
I'd probably agree with that the most but such things change for each person.
QuoteProactive gets you dead.
Reactive gets you everything.
I simply can't agree with this. When I started here, not that long ago really, I was totally reactive as a player and rarely saw anything of it. I like to think that my most recent character was mostly proactive and rewarded well for it. I took a lot of risks and tried to create a lot of conflict with Kethra Marsk and feel it was rewarded well. I hope to accomplish great things on this character as well with proactive work from a different angle.
I have to totally agree with a statement from IRC on this matter that said you need to overcome low-risk things before you can hope to succeed at the higher risk issues. When you get to the Ziggarut you are not a refined warrior or talented wizard, you are (typically) a person stranded on a new and dangerous place with many things to overcome, the most important of which is your survival. If you want to go balls to the wall from level 2 then you are going to have it thrown right back at you with equal force. I am not saying that you should 'quest up' before being proactive, but you should use that wisdom score and understand that if you want to challenge that powerful foe through your conflict then you need to have the skills to do it.
QuoteOn EFU if you do the most risk, you get the least reward. EFU doesn't support risk taking. It supports the lack of risk taking
This statement is hard to judge. I don't agree that you get less for taking more risks but do agree that there is too much reward for people not taking risks. Not everyone is a risk taker or big conflict starter nor should they be. I think when the 'spoils' are handed down such things should be considered more often so that the people in the heat of conflict are actually getting what they need to continue that course of action. If a character is risking more than usual because it's IC to do so then the rewards should be fitting for those actions because honestly, when it's not, it's quite easy to take away someone's motivation to continue.
/queue the Ninelives troll post
I personally think people need to better seperate OOC feelings from IC feelings.
What I mean is, the quests placed in the server, are part of the world. The quests are static, and never change, but the world is dynamic, and constantly change due to player initiative. However, you can't bad mouth a player that quests, as in the eyes of a "holy paladin", or "respectable citizen", IC, that man going out and slaying Troglodytes that have been causing the Colony harm would be seen as doing a good deed.
It doesn't make sense to hold OOC grudges towards players, and their characters. By doing so, and slandering them, you're limiting yourself to immersion, and better interactions. Just because you disagree OOCly, doesn't mean you should change what your character would think.
If you're somebody who is an immersionist (haha, new word!), and enjoys immersion, that you go into the mindset of your character doesn't even know YOU, as a player exsist, those people questing, and doing good deeds, would look like heroes against the people that sit by in the Kingsman and talk idly about politics.
Use LOTR as an example. It was a long, epic quest. Along the way, they had chances to talk with leaders of different civilizations and cultures, yet, battled endless foes. Take that into perspective; Those "heroes" in LOTR were looked up to by many because of the battles they won, and what they were fighting for.
So, stop the jealousy and grudges, and really just open your eyes up, and make the server more welcoming.
The server is pretty much Blue vs Red. When 98% of the server is freely rolling in the Blue side, having fun and questing and doing random events whatever, Red team tries to cut their way through jungle panthers and find someone to interact in the woods or entertaining themselves with some lonely whores in wastrel.
If these forces were balanced, that you could be a bad boy and get to play efficiently, I'd see more people playing characters that would do something different early and more often. I played a character who got exiled after few days of playing. He spent one month as an exile and luckily I got some others to play with. However 90% of the time I was trying to find someone but none moved at the area I was allowed even when server had 20-30 players. It was very frustrating.
What this all has to do with questing? Well, if you want to be different and maybe put yourself into risk, you must quest whore from the start or get wtfpwned by the team Blue as they can easily eat grass in their happy farmland.
About powerquesting: Most of those players who quest fast also do RP as much as the others but they're seen as powergamers as they've more time to play efu and when -you- are on they're always questing or in three days they got to lvl 8 or whatever. Some might even live in a timezone when there's not much to do than questing with your buddies as they're the only ones online and you've already done your plotting with them and now you're waiting for someone else to log in and start RPing with him/her. Yes, there are also those that only quest and don't have anything interesting to offer this server but I only feel sorry for them as they've accidentally logged on a wrong server.
Elmo out
I'm not trying to respond to RwG's post, calling him wrong / right, or anything like that, but I'd just like to state my opinion on it all.
That's how it goes. And, in my eyes at least, I can't see any way to change it. Like you say, it's far from ruining EfU, and while it does limit its perfection; it's the simple truth. I would however, like to mention those few who are completely proactive and succeed; the famous names of EfU, Montezzi, the Scholar, Zau, those PCs who went against the tide and prevailed.
And in my eyes, that's what makes those PCs special. They were the ones out of the many who made something, who acted rather than reacted and succeeded, and to me at least, they're proof that what you say isn't entirely true. And they're only the PCs who were radically proactive; most dominate the middle ground, using their own initiative as much as running on others and sometimes that messes things up, but other times, and those times are for me the defining moments of EfU, things fit together perfectly, and from it all, a story is made.
And, regardless of Powerquesting or not Powerquesting, whether you were the guy who got killed by the Paladin on his way to greatness, that story is what EfU is for, and it's what makes it fantastic.
Yo.
I don't have time to craft out a lengthy response, but I'll say it's a good post with a lot of valid points.
My summarized feelings:
If you want to be proactive and drive the server in cool directions, then it's fine to powerquest and level up quickly. You are absolutely right, you need the mechanical benefits that gives you in the EfU environment in order to survive gank squads and the other PvP that comes your way. If I dare to do so, I'll label this group as "The Adventurer."
If you want to be reactive and sit idly by and wait for cool PCs to stir things up, that's fine too. You can log in, chill out, quest a bit, and wait for conflict to come to you. A lot of people like this. It can lead to PCs being around 'forever' that don't seem to do much, but it keeps some integrity alive in the setting and there's nothing wrong with that. Continuing the last bit, I'll label this group as, "The Commoner."
What I do have problems with are reactive, idle characters that also powerquest. The stereotype here are the small nitches that form groups where they rocket up in loot, consumables, and xp, and then DO NOTHING. They lie in wait, often not even logging in, until an "opportunity" presents itself. It might be a super-villan or a super-hero showing his face, or even just a big DM quest or event. These groups will suddenly log in their level 8's for a bit of face stomping and cheap glory only to have them dissapear again after the dust settles. These people are the biggest party poopers I can point to and seem to be the root cause of a lot of discussions like this. I'm going to bin this group as, "The Gamer."
There is nothing wrong with being an adventurer or a commoner. Both are fun to play. Hell, sometimes I want to be an adventurer, and sometimes I just wanna be a commoner. But I hate the gamers. I think a lot of people do. They disrupt the nice balance between the adventurers and the commoners because, and perhaps a fault of our own, this environment truely does provide a good environment for gamers to prey on others. If we had a better way to police it, I would...and we already expend a considerable amount of effort doing just that. I wish they'd just go to some other server.
I'm not really one to make long posts about things as this, and will be mostly pleased to say RwG does raise a few valid points.
QuoteProactive gets you dead.
Reactive gets you everything.
Regardless, I will follow along the lines of Kershof above.
I recently played a character who I will also call proactive, and yes, I was immensely rewarded. Even that wasn't enough though. I was genuinely forced to try and quest as much as I could, to gain supplies in order to keep my conflicts going. Now, that didn't quite work out for me either. But I honestly didn't have much choice but to try.
Now I get to thinking. Yes, questing is required to survive and gain certain resources a character involved in a lot of action simply must have. But is there anything wrong about that? I think, where else or by what means would he aquire magical supplies and such? How would he make some quick profit in order to keep himself floating for the next upcoming skirmish?
Questing for this makes sense, there is nothing wrong with that. I however, do not think of any existing alternative routes to follow. Neither do I come up with any alternative routes to implement.
I understand that most other means are through more roleplay heavy ways, and the DMs want a hand in that. But one cannot rely on such things. I suggest more things like... High risk, high profit gambling. I'm sure numerous points can be raised against that too, but it is an example. And I simply wish for creative people to come up with creative solutions. I know us EfU'ers can.
I belive we need to give non-quest trips mroe rewards on XP and items, so people don't need to quest that much to become powerfull.
A level 4 character is LAME in DM events, and can organise a plot becasue everyone and their nannies can stop it in 5 rounds by killing him. In order to properly RP an ADVENTURE one need a good level or to have a powerfull group. Otherwise no big adventure can be achieved.
You can be a great bard, a great merchant, story teller etc. but isn't NWN about adventures?
Also people can RP in quests.
Banites was awsome, and part of it's awsomeness was the fact we QUESTED and not just typed stuff. But we roleplayed too. Ridiculised as it might be, it was fun, and i would like another faction like that.
I am not a deep thinker. I can only express my own feelings and opinion, just like anyone else.
I think that RWG is right, meaning that yes, it is hard. However, being rash and active is not a bad thing, but you also got to think of your strength in level and build side as well if you expect pvp.
In this past year, I've gotten few extremely good advices. Don't think of your limitations, but instead try and go for what you -want-. Then let the DM's and characters in the world decide where is your limit.
Other thing is, I have again started my characters as they are. They are newbies, novices and beginners compared to seasoned adventurers and such as they arrive to the Colony, despite their history. Age, experience and such aside, your character is in some way new and starting his journey and story. I wish people would not forget that.
It's fine to go for it right away and be loud, be creative and rash. However, play it as you want, but think about your levels and situation where you don't yet have friends or allies. Think about as it is. You're new, you're nobody. You need something to make name. Power, strength, money, friends. That is also how world works. One person cannot stand against the whole world, without something that he can use to take advantage.
I don't expect this brings anything new to the point. I am just trying to tell say, that I see this to be how world works. Most of folks in efu are Good/neutral or loners who only think their own good. Being this active and creative, conflict causing character is not easy, but it is not impossible either. Scales are not balanced, but it does not mean they should be either. This is where everyone should attempt and take up on the challenge to find how they can put more weight on the weaker side.
I’m at work, but I’d like to offer my brief perspective as a new player here. Maybe I’ll post more extensively later when I’ve got time, but in a nutshell…
(http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/pix2/pic216648.jpg)
This pyramid, while very cool, will soon fall over…
(http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/pyramids_the_great_pyramid.jpg)
This pyramid will stand.
But honestly, in the end, it's about whatever you have fun playing, and how much fun you bring to others. Beyond that worrying too much about what the "other guy" is doing is an exercise in futility.
I'm glad you're bringing this up, RwG. I'm more on the other side of PC length usually, with guys like Ahmed who've built things up gradually and managed to get around conflict with sneakiness and compromise rather than throw themselves full on into a cause then get stomped by the other side's Greataxe Crit Goon.
On the other hand I've had a fantastic time playing various PC faction characters that have been always busy pursuing goals/questing/patrolling. Get a good motivation to quest and it's great RP in itself if the players and PCs can spare the attention to emote, shout orders etc.
I'd agree with RwG that you do need to spam quests if you have active characters as it turns into an XP and consumables arms race and you want everyone in your faction at L7 and with stacks of Haste and CSW right *now*, in case of PVP or challenging DM attention.
I think though, that the biggest issue with quest spam is with the high-risk, high reward quests like Orcs, Corals and Lizardmen. A good, organised team with consumables to spare to push through the difficult parts can tear them apart and make a fantastic profit. A less effective team will get the crap kicked out of them and come off worse than they started. This starts a "rich getting richer" effect and a team that can crack these sort of quests can amass crazy loot. I should know, Ahmed's business model was bazed on selling crazy loot then smashing another quest for some more :P.
However, here's the rub. Quests don't play favourites. Unless a Dm's spicing, questing doesn't care who's doing it, the rewards are still random. Everyone has to go to the same locations, risk the same spawns or risk of PVP attacks by their enemies. If characters get massive rewards in supplies, loot, XP for being "risky", there's going to get OOC bad feeling towards the PCs that are getting all this "free stuff" while their opponents may not get the same attention from an impressed DM and have to resort to, oh, questing.
However, what maybe would be cool to try is an option for a group of PCs to app for a "running start", and enter the server already equipped at a reasonable level, allowing them to stand a chance in PVP against a similar group. In the same way that ECL PCs start out with effectively higher level advantages, and DM faction PCs get loot and pay to allow them to advance things without questing for the money. In fact, almost exactly like how the Nightrisers start with a coupel of levels, ECL char powers and a stack of supplies.
It's a game. You should play to have fun, not be labeled into whatever subgroups as monsters or whatever some of the above posts would have you to believe.
If you like to quest or plot, then do either respectively. I don't think it's too absurd that the people looting villages and such get the supplies and combat experience as opposed to someone who sits in the inn room plotting. When you need things, find them, or you'll suffer or lower your chances of survival/success/whatever accordingly. What's wrong with that? Oh -- nothing, this topic is just a spamfest of doomsayer bullshit.
Similar could be said of risk, if there was not a ganksquad, what risk would there even be? Sometimes you will come out the worse of it, which should happen eventually to everyone. Some like more risk than others, which is absolutely fine, and again those that do or don't take said risks will be treated accordingly.
I think that people can grasp who is just power gaming and who isn't pretty easily. I'm also sure they can react however they want, considering any post here is unlikely to stop them.
tl;dr while things are not perfect, they will never be, yet they have been and always will be good, no long winded post or bitchy rebuttal is going to change that
I've certainly put up a fair share of posts addressing these same concerns over the years. Overall, I've learned that discussing it with the server as a whole doesn't really get you anywhere. The best way to create a successful RP character is to be noticed by a DM that is into your goals. Be it through an app, or persistent forum posts, or simply bashing them on the head, if they like your ideas you can have a lot of fun without questing.
If you're doing something that is disruptive to the status quo, the groups in power are going to push back at you. It helps at this point to either have lvls or NPC support at your back. You can get this by questing, you can get it by making allies of other people who quest, you can get it through xp for RP. Point is that there are a lot of ways to make it work.
The one change I would suggest that existed through most of the time in the underdark that doesn't on the surface is the addition of some level of free speech. It seems to me that the DMs are working to add this in with the current dock situation. Wherein the Underdark you could say "this is who I am and what I believe" with relative safety, it has always felt to me that on the surface if you are against the established rule, your "treason" will get you killed 100% of the time. This often leads to characters who are afraid to speak up, lest they lose their character, or likewise endlessly quest to lvl up and up and gather loot before they challenge someone to a duel, and lose, or win, but haven't really made much of an RP impact along the way.
Before making this rant, I shall make disclaimers: This is based on what I have seen, and may have holes and discreptincies as I miss things often.
I agree with SanTelemo on that the server often becomes Red VS Blue, especially when PvP is concerned.
I find that Blue tends to be whoever is in control of the government on the Zig, because it's the town. Red tends to be Team Druid, those opposing the Government, and similar. The only time in the past the scales really balanced was the Spellguard/Reynold's Rebellion takeover (I recall there was a good dose of PvP), and the Ixpadian war (though in both, the general plot ended in a "Blue" victory).
The problem with the server is that it's hard for the Red Team to form without focused organization before hand, due to the fact that the Blue Team has all the advantages most of the time. They're well established, have the 'peer pressure', and tend to get DM support in the form of NPC backup.
The Red Team has none of these advantages, especially if they form out of 'Rogue' Blue PC's, not NPC's. Whenever there's a PC rebellion, it gets crushed by the large number of Blue. When a DM faction makes rebellion, they tend to last longer.
I agree that the 'Red Team' per se needs to have some extra difficulty because it's opposing the established social order, but the way it is, they have to wait until they're kitted out usually, and able to go toe-to-toe with a number of 'official' "Blue Team" members (For this example, the Stygians). Once they can do this, they can make a play, but, guess what: With PC's only being on one side, peer preassure, OUT OF CHARACTER[/b][/u] peer preasure at that, occurs. None of us want to see our characters wiped off the map in five seconds because we decided to make a stand for what our characters beleive is right, instead of being Blue Sheep and following the tide of power.
While certainly there are characters who do that, but I personally find the power vaccuum to be redicoulous, the Red Team, especially if it's active from the very begining, tends to get shot, blown up, ionized, and crushed toot sweet once the fight starts, not because of 'official' faction membership (IE, Stygians, Ixpadians, etc.), but because of PC's instantly thinking "OK, Blue Team's got the edge, so we go blue".
Even if the "Red Team" can prove quite easily and ICly that the "Blue Team" can be defeated, PC's often go blue, thinking, "Oh, it's just one victory, the DM's will support the Blue Team through and through". While certainly this is true to a degree, and it damn right should be, the assumption that the DM's will ONLY support the Blue Team because the Red Team is not a minor DM faction, is absolutely, fucking, FALSE. The DM's do support the Red Team when it's a PC faction. Want an example?
Montezzi. THIS is the biggest example of a PC faction, THAT HAD EARNED THE RIGHT TO BECOME A DM-BACKED FACTION, BUT CHOOSE NOT TO, and still made all of us shiver in our boots. Most people were either Grey towards Montezzi, or were in favor. Or if they spoke anti-Montezzi, it was lips only for the most part. I recall the big anti-Montezzi meeting, we had a lot of people. However, only some of them whom were not Mithrilsoul Dwarves showed up for the actual deal. I don't know if it was because we had a crapload of spies, or if it was because of OOC, or if most were just showing up to watch the big RP, but otherwise didn't care, I honestly cannot say. But the fact that Montezzi was powerful enough to make players not want to mess with them, because they're players were good, not the fact they had DM backing (which was little, as they had few NPC soldiers avalible for deployment, as I recall).
The problem? Levels, loot, and the fact that Montezzi had a core, elite, group that could work cohesively as a unit, and had a leader that played his stats perfectly, and the legacy the faction left is definitly one to be remembered.
Unfortunetly, the way EfU is designed, it favors a strong, core group that power quests like hell to ensure that power stays strong. I've been in groups that do that, and we had some good time. But there is a weakness, that I shant reveal for it may cue spoilers and OOC decisions, that those factions had.
So to sum it up, if you want to make a difference, you tend to have to power quest, yes, but that is only a part of it. Montezzi, while certainly gained mechanical power by power questing, used RP to give them their power as well. About 60% of th victories in EfU are mechanical, I agree. 30% is simply the old "Red VS Blue" ideology, which usually ended in a Blue (City/'Legal') victory, exceptions of note including the Bog War, which was a "Red" victory, a rare one, at that. The remaining 10%, are RP victories, where a good character being played right won the day, not a power built smackdown of East Meets West, Red VS. Blue, David VS Goliath (where David looses more often then not).
Egon mentioned that those who don't have 'DM favoritism' are the ones who have to power quest to make up for this, and those who do get it are oft a well organized group who can tear it apart easily and gain redic profit. There's little we can do to solve this, unfortunetly, without setting it to, "OK, PC X should get fewer rewards because PC Y, Z, and Alpha are with him" and "PC A, B, and C should get standard as they are not an elite team line-up", which is, quite honestly and frankly, unfair.
Regarding Ganksquads... I find them to be cheap, especially for picking off lone chars on a FD DRIVEBY strike. FDing is fine for you know, duels to the death, large-scale battles, and similar. DRivebys are particularly frustrating for me, because it usually ends a character by death because some power build decided he wanted the character out of the way or was paid by a good RPer to remove it, hoping perhaps for some RP to go before the death. Because of Driveby's, it really gets things screwy when it ends a character before they have a chance to defend themselves, emote didly squat (IE, "HELP!", "What the feck?!" or even "Oh Shi- *gets cut down*"), and really ends a character in a bad note because the fact that... you're suprised, and chances are it was just some random powerbuilt character that ended what was potentially months of hard work and RP in less than 10 seconds with as much honor as a Shargass Disciple critsploding a civliian, non-combat NPC like one of the Beggar Children.
The problem though, is that RPing before ending a character is quite difficult because, well, usually you'd have to secure the area, subdue any opposition, and get it done before reinforcements get in.
While this certainly is the ideal way to end PC's, it isn't practical, as often you can't get more than, "Sorry, sucker" or a similar one-liner off before having to FD, steal the body, evacuate the area before a payback-ganksquad returns, and destroy said body. This is usually Red Team's opperations, if trying to give at least a moment of RP. the "Blue Team" usually can RP, but just go FD it anyways to get it over with, usually some random person doing it who wants to get some fame.
So all in all, the main problem is the human instinct to band together as a single group, the desire to be a part of something. THAT, is what creates the "Blue Team pwns Red Team" usually, because we all want to be part of the winning "Blue Team" and succed, get teh lewt, and get to brag about a win. Red Team rarely has this, and usually if they win, they become the "Blue Team" and this vicious circle goes around again, except this "Blue Team" incarnation usually suffers a loss that ends the particular 'domination', but it leaves a long, hard to remove mark, usually in the form of the PC government the "Blue Team" left, creating this new "Blue Team" that a new "Red Team" will have to defeat for it to come full circle, usually with a similar pattern. Talented PC's get together, talented PC's kick a lot of ass against superior numbers and survive, talented PC's dominate for a time, Talented PC's die off, talent PC's legacy continues, leaving a new order, then repeats with another group of Talented PC's.
This mostly applied to EfU:A, as in Sanctuary, the city stayed roughly the same over the years, with some differences occasionally, but otherwise stayed generally the same, but here, due to a lack of solid 'starting' government and how things have slammed down hard, even on the eventualy "DM" government, things are much less stable, thus much more vicious.
After reading the post above, i have to agree, thigs seem biassed towards team blue only because team red decides so.
But i think it is important to note that a group of low level characters must have really good DM support or have exelent timing to defeat a goup of high level characters. Otherwise mechanics count too much.
Wich means a team that powerquests untill all it's members are level 8 against a group that has dedicated most of it's time to build weapons and plan strategies, the high level team will always have the edge in the fact that they can simply kill the other team to solve the conflict, the other team cannot.
So even if "red team's" RP was better, "Blue team" will win when it comes to the conflict most of the time.
Broken? don't think so. It makes sence the group that has dedicated itself to hoard supplies for war and training their soldiers wins. Regardless, this is a RP server and the focus should be roleplay. I don't like sitting and typing all day, i'd rather go questing, but thouse who plan and roleplay a lot should get i bigger rewards, how much is to DM discrecion.
Would that solve it? I really don't know. I presonally don't like to depend on DMs to solve everything.
Heh.
Let me give my sentiments.
My playing my wild orc crew, we made EFFORTS to be MONSTERS SINCE DAY 1.
Guess what, gank squad came four days later after we mugged some folks. We never even got close to level 4.
What RwG says is true on some things, you ought to power quest to level 6 and then start conflicts, but really, who the fuck thinks that is fun?
IMO, real players push plots from day one and go down fighting like real men.
I only bothered to read RwG's post so this might have already been said.
Proactive characters die fast, get ganked by the reactive players.
But at the same time, it is the reactive players who whine and bitch about never having DM loot and never getting DM quests when compared to the proactive players, coining them 'DM Pets' and forcing them to quest their asses off so they can have supplies and XP on par with the DM granted rewards.
It is a slippery slope.
You can bin all this garbage talk about 'Red vs Blue', it doesn't make any sense. All the PvP on EFU:A is usually the result of complex character interactions. Its the clash of goals and philosophies usually that spawns PvP, rather than some simple minded red vs blue mentality. Its just an inaccurate description.
As for the post/thread, I don't really understand it. It just seems to be alot of players blathering on without any focus or points being made.
Do you die more often if you're proactive than reactive? Yes. But that goes without saying.
There is no problem with questing alot so long as you (ideally) back it all up with pursuing involving goals. Those who quest alot and do nothing besides engage in some boring RP will generally be ignored by DMs.
Ganksquads are a feature, and can't be avoided if you've made a yourself a target. Sadly they usually involve a bunch of reactive characters who don't do much, but thats just how it is.
If you play alot, and take the time to really master the mechanics of NWN and PvP, you can reach a state where you can be proactive and still feel very confident that you can overcome most forces that come at you. The worst thing for me is seeing very proactive players like Scalebane and RwG suffer early deaths because they are mechanically inept. Get to know NWN, or at the least recruit someone who has, and you'll see your chances of pushing your agenda rise dramatically.
Personally, I use TheNaga.
Let me just go ahead and say this. I used to be a big fan of threads like this whenever I died and felt like I wasn't able to accomplish anything at all. Let me just say that Caddies' advice is extremely sound; to add to that, let me throw in a bit of my own: Be patient. Know what you can accomplish with the power you have at any given time. People will not think you are 'less awesome' if you refuse to PvP the entire server, even if your character is supposed to be the GREAT DREAD EVIL OF THE SAND CAVERNS or whatever. At the same time, no one will respect you, if you stand at the back plinking a crossbow at sand spiders or trogs. Be daring, but don't be stupid. Be ruthless, not impatient. And most of all, just enjoy yourself, it is a motherfucking game ffs.
Some very interesting points brought up.
The notion that EFU can be brought down to teams may have been my fault in talking about villains and heroes and law and criminal, but for the most part its non existent. Every faction, every group, and hell even every PC can be seen as a self-involved party. They'll fight, they'll argue, they'll tussle. Having played on the Ixpadian side for most of the quest I can assure you they in fought, as did the stygians and sharboneth fight each other.
This just came up as a reflection of my last PC, which was fairly antagonistic, but probably about 60% of my short time IC was spent running various quests for supplies and other things in hopes of surviving another day. That got me thinking about EFU and all that business, and thus the rant.
To be honest I think Strife's post on the first page summarized pretty accurately.
I know exactly why all of this is as it is. It's because EFU is a brilliant idea built on bad bedrock.
To understand what I'm about to be talking about one really needs to read this: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html
EFU is built on NWN, which in turn is built on the ruleset for DnD 3.5. Most everyone here is probably already aware of this. But what kind of system is DnD or NWN really? Let's start with DnD.
DnD is, and always has been, without question, a GAMIST game. I've been playing since 2nd edition, but I've also gone back and played some first edition, but regardless of which edition you are using the design philosophy has always been the same, that is to say, gamist. The bulk of the rules are about combat resolution. Seriously. If you have access to a rulebook flip through it and count how many pages are devoted to some aspect of combat resolution. Now count how many are devoted to story, role playing a character with depth, social rules mechanics, etc. See what I mean? DnD has NEVER been about telling a good story or accurately simulating situations. If you have been involved in a game which has done either of these, good for you! Your DM was obviously a keeper because he sure as hell didn't succeed at doing so due to any help from the ruleset. DND is not simulationist and it certainly is NOT narrative.
Now let's talk about NWN. NWN is a game which VERY faithfully follows the DND 3.5 ruleset. And that's its problem. As far as video games go, DND (and by extention NWN) isn't even a particularly GOOD system on which to base a gamist game. If you want hardcore questing, group combat, phat loot, and overall interesting and engaging combat dynamics, well, NWN is about the last game I'd ever choose. WoW does a WAY better job of delivering all that. Seriously, even if you don't like WoW in particular you have to admit that at least its design philosophy is on the mark. It's a gamist game, it doesn't really pretend to be otherwise, it's based on tabletop RPGs like DND, but no more so than any other CRPG. Its designers took those few things that were good about such systems, discarded the rest and then built up their own system from there. I can't even compare the experience of playing a warrior on WoW vs. playing one in NWN. For those are aren't familiar with WoW let me break down the differences for you:
WoW - Click on the enemy to begin attacking, since I'm the tank I hit him with Devestate a few times to make sure I've got aggro, hit him with Rend to have some damage over time happening, oh shit it's a spellcaster, hit him with a Shield Bash to interrupt and silence him for a few seconds, got a second enemy coming up from behind use Thunder Clap to get him to aggro me and maintain aggro on the first guy at the same time, now let's drop a Demoralizing Shout to bring down their damage, might as well drop a Battle Shout while I'm at it, oh shit that second guy is going after the mage now, use Taunt to get him attacking me again, alright now let's hit him with Devestate a few times and then Thunder Clap again, just about got him, let's finish him with Revenge and then Shield Slam, ok, he's down, now let's finish that other guy...
NWN - Click on the enemy to begin attacking, sit back and watch as the computer handles the archaic game mechanics of rolling initiative, rolling for attack, rolling for damage if there's a hit and then wait for the next combat round, no seriously, your character just stands there waiting for his next combat round, meanwhile you go get something to drink while the combat plays out entirely in accordance with the luck of the dice throws and your character's combat stats which are almost entirely based on level.
Ok, ok, I know sometimes there's a bit more to it than that... You might have to down a potion or two. So hit F5... wait... wait some more... ok HP are down some hit F5 again, wait... etc.
As far as engaging combat dynamics NWN and pretty much any other game that utilizes the DND ruleset is a massive, steaming pile of fail. If I want to go do group questing and be pretty well assured of having a good time I can hop on WoW and go get involved in a 5 man dungeon. If not WoW then there are plenty of other interesting and engaging gamist RPGs and at least one of them is likely to suit your tastes.
I would never recommend NWN as a good gamist RPG. But how does it do as a platform for something like EFU which is clearly an attempt to create a narrative RP environment? "Fail" would be too kind.
If I were to take apart NWN and examine to code for it I would guess that the overwhelming majority of it would be dedicated to combat resolution. Not surprising considering its origins. There are simply too damn few tools for social interaction. Even WoW has more tools than this crapfest. Your ability to create emote macros or speech macros is severely limited, in part by the character limit for macros in general, you only get 24 action buttons for any macros you do create (and they have to share them will all other actions, sucks if you're a spellcaster). There are damned few animations, voice emotes, appearance options, clothing options, class customization options. And though NWN is highly moddable there are still limits to how far one can go with it, I mean, at the end of the day it's still NWN. This doesn't help EFU anyway because it prides itself and using no hakpaks (great for new player accessibility, bad for game dynamics, vanilla NWN is simply teh suck).
The point I've been driving toward is that EFU is attempting to mix two incompatible type of gaming: Gamist and Narrativist. Many different people have made a lot of commentary on the deficiencies of EFU, but I don't think anyone has ever really nailed the underlying problem 100%. I'm convinced that the problem is this incompatibility of underlying design philosophy. EFU is trying really hard to be a narrativist game, but it's constantly hampered by its platform.
For instance, much debate has taken place on the subject of suitable character death. The ultimate conclusion that always seems to be reached is: "It's just part of EFU, suck it up and deal with it". Why does it come to this conclusion? Because combat and death are about the most interesting things that the underlying game engine allows for, and most people want interesting stuff to be happening, they want drama. While combat and death can be great sources of drama they are not the only sources, nor even the best sources.
Imagine Lord of the Rings EFU style...
There's Frodo and Sam trying to sneak across Mordor wearing orc armor to blend in, they come upon a column of orcs marching to the Black Gate who see them and drag them into the column to join them on their march. They start a mock fight with one another as a ruse to escape in the ensuing chaos, a big fight erupts and they try to slip away but fail their sneak roll, so orc archers shoot them in the back, take the ring to Sauron and the land is covered in darkness for the next thousand years. The End.
Now... who wants to read THAT goddamned book? No one I know. But that's what EFU is, a series of characters playing out a story in which most of said characters are killed off before their story is concluded, sometimes before their story is even really started, and often time due to stupid shit that would never survive the editing process of any decent book/movie/tv show/video game/comic book/etc. And for some regulars here this fact is worn like some sort of twisted badge of honor, for others the number of permadeaths they are involved in is how they "win at EFU".
And the reason for all of this? Because combat and death are about the most interesting things that can happen. This game engine doesn't allow for much more. Yet many of us play for that tiny bit more that CAN be done, for us being part of a long running story rich in non-combat elements IS the interesting part.
Character death is not the worst thing that can happen to a character in a good story.
Some people may not fully get that, so I shall repeat it:
CHARACTER DEATH IS NOT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO A CHARACTER IN A GOOD STORY!!!!!11eleven
But in a gamist game, it is. For the simple reason that you're now out of the game. And for some people this is enough.
For those who enjoy gamist RPGs I recommend WoW you'll have a lot better time than grinding the scripted quests of EFU. If you really want a harsh penalty for character death (or you're just a masochist) try EVE Online.
For those of us who enjoy Narrativist RPGs I'm sorry to say that we seem to be a minority. I haven't really seen many alternatives to EFU, flawed as it is. Ideally EFU should be transplanted to another game with mechanics more favorable to creating dynamic stories (something without levels, classes, more types of non combat interaction, etc.), but I know of no other game out there that would be suitable. Most RPGs these days tend to be either gamist or single player RPGs which just put you at the center of a big scripted plotline. There's not really much else that has any equivalent to DM tools either.
Sadly, this is what we got to work with. Nothing to be done except make the most of it.
/$0.02
EfU is a place where story comes before system. It actually (for me, at least) overcomes the (admittedly terrible) limitations of the engine it is built upon to deliver a superior storytelling experience.
Text is the basis of everything. As for combat being such a huge part of things, welcome to FR, DnD, roleplaying games and games in general.
NWN isn't as bad as you make it out to be. If it was so simplistic why are most people, after -years- of playing it, still awful at it?
I am still awful at it!
Oh wait that is not what this is about.
I enjoy spending time in EFUA as it is more interesting than watching TV, whether I am questing or RPing. I do not know who the powerquesters are, I do not know who the red team or blue team is. I just know the characters I meet and immerse myself in the world.
Sometimes I have more fun than others. I wish I had more time to cause some havoc and make plots come to life, but I don't. I generally have long living characters because I cannot think of interesting enough plots to get me killed or I am not online when exciting things are afoot.
Does all of this bother me, not really. As long as I find at least a few fun people to hang with and hide from annoying folk than I think all is fair in love and war.
Quote from: Kiaring;153463Personally, I use TheNaga.
@RWG: You're probably right. The time that you take the risks and get notice by a DM that has the time to properly reward you... You'll likely be dead by then.
But... I dont know how the state are right now, but back in my days, your nemesis didn't necessairly kill you at the first opportunity he got.
Strong protagonists usually ignored weak antagonists to give them a sporting chance and vice versa. I wouldn't say that the longer you play a character, the more loot you have, the more successful you are... The important part is to have fun and I can get that by:
- Challenging Quests/Adventurers
- Mild Roleplay Session about really mundane stuff where you just define your character and make them clash with others. It's really evasion where if you have an ounce of actor's blood in you and some creativity in description, you can really create unique, memorable and interesting characters.
- Player vs. Player confrontation where you REALLY dont know the outcome and you are really anxious about it. It provides both Eustress if you succeed, bad stress if you dont succeed, but that Eustress is really addictive and its what makes people try and try again despite failing 97% of the time in pvp '_'
But really... if you focus only one of those, you're missing something BiG. I mean, its not every day that I want to login and be anxious whether I'll lose my char or not, those days I focus on mild roleplay, challenge quests and so on... and you mix it.
Roleplay, succeeding at challenges should be their own rewards and you get the occassional praise from others that keep you pumped.
Quote from: Mort;153503But... I dont know how the state are right now, but back in my days, your nemesis didn't necessairly kill you at the first opportunity he got.
Strong protagonists usually ignored weak antagonists to give them a sporting chance and vice versa. I wouldn't say that the longer you play a character, the more loot you have, the more successful you are..
Those words speak volumes of the history of EFU (I left the 'A" off on purpose) that has made this server "GREAT" that has lead to some amazing moments.
Try some condepts that'll lead to non-lethal PVP? My run-ins with the Bog Boys on Merristan were a lot of fun. Him and his dwarf thug Koili just kicked the shit out of and taunted them in mass brawls, arranged via shit-talk in the sending system. I think we could use a few *less* ruthless PCs. Ones who would meet insult with insult or fists, not duels to the death or drive-by Icestorming. PCs who aim for low-grade hooliganism over massive battles, who have a political opponent framed with slander as opposed to assassinated. Maybe even recruit OOC for members of two opposing gangs and run organised subdual fights with clubs and knives.
The problem is it requires control on both sides, the ability to not think "any conflict ends in FD". I think that a strong "guard" faction might pay dividends on this if PCs become hesitant about murder due to it being risky. Right now, if you gank somone in a cheap disguise and get clear, you're smelling of roses.
If there was a tendency for supervising DMs to introduce "clues" or Npc witnesses that could lead to people being tracked down potentially later, we might see more drawn out tension as opposed to "Well, we'll never know who did it now" or "boom, you're a fugitive".
And here i was thinking RPing was a reward in itself.
Anyways...
Do remember that your PC is not an epic hero, though. He’s just a nobody on a tiny isle, and the first weathered adventurer can kill him, sure. If you risk it, you usual have it coming to you.
But...
The main issue is about people making powebuilds that will will spoil other people’s fun. If this happens to you, tell a DM. They’ll handle it.
I powerplay a lot. Even so i’d never FD another rising PC with my powerbuilds (except if the other PC is one too: Kristian, get your arse in game, Kromgnar wants your bounty). Doing so would be griefing, imo.
The same goes for ganking. Waiting for the other guy not to have his pals logged on is lame. Waiting for your target to loose 3 lvls before targetting it is lame. Waiting for someone to be ‘near death’ before making an entry is lame. Attacking by four to one someone who is not a “power†is lame. Etc.
On a side note that’s why i’ve given up PvP apart from duels. I never found myself in a situation where i’d thought it would be fun for both parties. The only times i’ve considered attacking my targets are times when i was sure my PC would not make it: that does put me off, too when it’s a PC i want to keep alive a bit longer.
I like Exilestrife’s’s typology a lot. If you’re an “adventurerâ€, you’ll get noticed and rewarded. Maybe not as in being able to stand up against powerquesters, but i’m not even sure that’s desirable. If you’re a “commonerâ€, don’t expect much DM attention expect random spice. If you’re a “gamerâ€, don’t use those powerbuilds to ruin other peoples games, especially via FD in PvP.
Do note that if some people get the positive attention they deserve, others also get the negative reputation they also deserve. Ganks, lame pvp, cheap FD, skimming loot, cheating, etc, is something everyone hears about. Winning pvp, having a high lvl PC, etc. does not necessarily make you more looked up to. And if it’s dead easy to get a reputation, getting rid of a reputation is tough. Once DMs overlook you, you’ll have a hard time drawing them back. Once the community has an opinion of you you don’t want, tough luck.
For all the rest, EfU’s a game on a public server. Play it like you enjoy it: ‘RP’, questing, proactive, reactive, DM foot licking, DM rebellion, sticking with one PC, making 100 alts, occasional, full time, high lvl smashing, low lvl survival, being an attention whore, playing solo, whatever....
In the end, positive attention is a reward in itself, if not mechanics wise. If that’s what you’re after, you don’t need to have a powerful PC. You only need to have fun and make fun.
The best fun comes when playing how you want to play, whether one day that's smashing shit to pieces in quests, while another day you spent three-line emoting how the sunlight dances of your shoulder plating. I've found EfU rewarding when pursuing all aspects of the server; though, yes, there are those that take both to the extreme, and suffer the consequences. I find the most rewarding for me to play is just to do things in my own time, just because you made an awesome PC and want to share your story with the whole world doesn't mean as soon as you enter the game world you are obligated to destroy shit, because somehow you think that's what is expected of you.
And... I don't know what I even wrote just there, so be advised it's likely highly off-topic.
I think I've seen 3 of your efua deaths and they were all done tastelessly by individuals more concerned with winning then being part of a story. Thats just a maturity issue. Ask mort or caddies how to fend off these lamers.
Quest hard, RP hard, live, and be merry.
To be succinct; follow in the footsteps of those that have been great, and you too, can be great. Mostly though, Caddies nailed it.
Hopefully a moth.
Nice thread.
also stop complaining so much cry baby
Well, here are my thoughts about the whole thing:
- It's okay to do as many quests as you want, as long as you roleplay during, or between them.
- You can't roleplay in a quest you are doing for the 100th time as much as you did the first time.
- Pretending that antagonist chars should be antagonists right from the start, before they get enough lvls and decent equipment, is ridiculous. By enough levels I mean 6 or 7, depending on the char.
- Targetting monster pcs you know are low-level when they didn't attack you, before they are able to become a real challenge for you and apport something to the server, is lame. Yes, even if it's allowed and encouraged. That's my opinion.
That's all I can think of for now.
great evil in the sand caverns, lets go.
Quote from: Enigma;154110- It's okay to do as many quests as you want, as long as you roleplay during, or between them.
I don't think you should be forced to roleplay anywhere, IMO if you just want to quest arround the server without no roleplay it is fine as long as you do not break the ICness of the game for others.
Quote from: Enigma;154110- Pretending that antagonist chars should be antagonists right from the start, before they get enough lvls and decent equipment, is ridiculous. By enough levels I mean 6 or 7, depending on the char.
Not necesarily. Even if the antagonist is level 2, as long as you've allowed him to develop his story it is fine. the point is not to give the story a bad ending, and an ending comming too early is bad.
Quote from: Enigma;154110- Targetting monster pcs you know are low-level when they didn't attack you, before they are able to become a real challenge for you and apport something to the server, is lame. Yes, even if it's allowed and encouraged. That's my opinion.
Same as above. The orcs never had a chance to do anything other than mug Cerra and that other guy- not exactly the best storyline, and if we consider we were a good organised group who roleplayed awsomely i think it is lame we were killed before we had a chance to impact the server in some way.
That i was taken as a slave was, for instance, exelent, since it allows me to posibly continue the story. If it were for me, 1 orc would have been enslaved/killed and the rest left alone. that way the story can continue.
It is importat to give characters time to develop their story.
my thoughs.
Quote from: Enigma- Targetting monster pcs you know are low-level when they didn't attack you, before they are able to become a real challenge for you and apport something to the server, is lame. Yes, even if it's allowed and encouraged. That's my opinion.
your opinion is stupid
how does i kill lvl 2 man
do lots of quests and drink many colours :)
I do not mind when the gank squad came. Its a game. Treat it as one.