A word to the wise. In the past we had discussions centering around conflict between PCs, especially in the event of a group wiping another off the face of the server after conflict that was considered incipient.
What I understood from those discussions is that it's good to look for alternatives to FD'ing a character, especially if it's one you may have reason to kill, but haven't exactly developed a lot of conflict with.
I'd like to put forth a view that this is wrong, and should not be done. You should be ruthless if your character is ruthless, and not worry about the player behind the computer, or the 'story' in the general sense. Your character is yours, his story is the one you get to tell. Players are far too jaded these days to allow others to get off, even with crippling losses, without FD. FD is just a quickslot macro away. Besides, there's the awesome defense of, "Hey, you would have just ganked me the other day!". While that might not be true 100% of the time, it certainly seems to be the norm, which brings me to this conclusion: Why refrain from FD'ing? I've certainly done so throughout my career in EfU, and I'll tell you, the sight of all those tells streaming through your screen about how 'your character was sweet' and how they 'fostered awesome conflict between different players' gets old after, well, once. I bet rearranging your recent kill's inventory into your own tastes a lot better.
I'm sorry if I come off as jaded, snide or anything like that. I just don't want other players to think that there is anything other than mostly meaningless, quick deaths waiting for them if they choose the path of 'alternatives to FD' when dealing with characters with whom they've interacted little. The same courtesy will not be afforded to you, and whoever kills you will claim that they 'had IC reason' to do so, and 'you would have come back the next day with a ganksquad in tow'. I don't mean to be negative, or detract from the server or the 'story' in any way, I just wanted to let other players know, since this has been a rude awakening for me, that people (no matter how nice they may be OOC) are not here to play with you. They're here to play their characters, and if that includes FD'ing you after a contrived five-minute-long first meeting, they will do so. Because the alternative is, of course, being ganked the next day by a horde of your allies, or ambushed from invisibility by a fully-buffed version of yourself.
To sum it up: Before last night, I always thought the story (and by this I mean something that involves ALL characters rather than just your own) was supposed to be a consideration when looming over the subdued body of an enemy. But it really isn't. The only thing that matters is your character's IC motivations.
I think most players will be in agreement with these views. If you're not, I'm sad to say I used to be on your side, but trust me, there's nothing coming but endless screens of 'hey, your character was cool :)' and 'you were a really cool enemy for me and my faction, thanks for that!' tells after you're Fugue'd (almost forgot the good old, 'if it's any consolation, I thought your character was especially awesome!') that one last time. They get old after well, once. I bet rearranging your enemy's inventory into your own never gets old, ever. Otherwise, why would people do it so much?
Inara? These bastards!
lol
The PvP rules are pretty lax and one is able to justify killing someone else with very little effort. I personally don't like fighting people over nothing but inventing reasons to mug and kill your fellow players can not only make you very rich but is often a great way of attracting PCs to your faction and getting DMs to pay attention to your character. Even in the unfortunate event that you are killed, that attention can often carry over to a new character's goals. I highly recommend it as a way for players who are new to the server to get established.
Quote from: Valium Skies;88725lol
Sadly the hilarity of it only dawned on me after the fact had taken place.
You gotta laugh, otherwise this is all about the "SEA OF ANGSTY NEGATIVITY" Howland mentioned in "How to Rock my Socks Off".
The simple fact, my friends, is that courtesy is always appreciated. It may not stop your character from getting killed and it may not place you first on the "IRC Bragging Rights" list, but it will always make your play experience more enjoyable. It won't make those deaths more enjoyable-I doubt anything will. But you'll find the game as a whole is much better for you and those you play with. If someone else is discourteous, I really doubt he's actually having as much fun and deriving as much enjoyment from the game as you might think he is.
It's lame and it's corny, but it really is true.
I am going to keep on being OOC considerate even when i know it may well not be returned. I understand a lot of Kiarings post and have almost gone that way, but i just plain don't enjoy ending others stories early, so i am not going to.
Damn right I FD when appropriate. If my character would kill you, he's going to kill you.
To many great villains killed by taunting over the SD form of their foe, only to be smacked down ruthlessly by a 10 man gank squad mere minutes later(Rhukt anybody?).
I've always taken the attitude that being courteous to a person OOCly and making the death of a character a fun experience, is much more rewarding than FDing a person straight off with no explanation.
Now certainly not every occasion will allow for you 'not' to FD a person, but its best that if there's an option to subdual first, take it.
Taking the attitude of 'play to win' though OOCly, and ignoring all other options is one way to play the game, but I can't help but think that it won't earn people many friends OOCly, or give people good feelings over the death of a character.
kiangst
though recently kill and loot everyone does seem to be a pretty awesome option
I don't want to get into the specifics of what likely caused this post, but the PvP I have seen so far has been fair and courteous to date on EFU. I am sort of worried this thread will spiral into a circular PvP rant thread... but won't lock for now.
Somewhat Relevant Random Musings
I didn't do much FDing as a player, partly because I didn't have much PVP conflict in the first place. However, those few instances of PVP I usually did FD. The rivalries I held were usually political, so there wasn't much combat. One character was a coward and simply ran from all his enemies.
I encourage you guys to engage in conflict, but maybe you want to consider meaningful conflict over conflicting with someone for the sake of conflicting. And when you do conflict, maybe hold off on actually attacking one another. Put some foreplay in it. ;) Because once the blood starts spilling, it will all spiral down. This will make these milestone events like FDs more meaningful. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that the conflicts Kia's character engaged in where not meaningful; especially since I never interacted with her.)
I generally disagree.
I think PVP is great if your simply dueling. Or really really epic if you are fighting over something important... killing people because you want their money OOCly is stupid to me. Kill people you have plot with, not a random guy who asks your help and must be level three.
This is the same pattern of events that I've seen many times, and something I tried to address in my post that discusses "Good PvP Karma" (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40) posted here.
The relevant section:
QuotePvP Karma:
"You reap what you sow" - PvP Karma is too amorphous for us to strictly enforce, but is something we like to encourage. Seeking it will make you a happier player, avoiding it (even if you don't strictly break any rules) will just lead to disappointment for all involved (yourself, your opponent, other players, and the DMs).
- Is the PvP justified?
Has the conflict between your characters reached a point where the natural progression would be PvP? Are you certain that the desire for PvP is entirely your character's, and not your feelings as a player seeping into your RP?
- Is it best to subdual, to subdual-loot, or to FD (full damage) kill?
Has the character (and player) had opportunities to avoid being FD'ed if they've lost? Is the rivalry or conflict sufficient cause that you think looting or FD'ing is justified? If the situation was reversed, and you were playing your character's opponent, would you feel the same way? Has the story progressed to a point where a FD death would be appropriate? Please note: often the answer is yes, sometimes in EFUA it's just time for FD time.
- Is the PvP fun and stylish?
Style is intangible, but should always be sought. Put some thought into it.
- Is your attitude as a player relaxed, respectful, sporting?
Are you a gracious winner, and respectful loser? Sportsmanship is important. Note that this does go both ways, even if you're the victim of PvP that you think doesn't agree with the PvP Karma Guidelines, you should still try to be gracious and respectful. Of course, feel free to come to the Dms if you have concerns.
The bottom line, is that we all play from our own perspective, and it's easy to forget about the times you're subdualed and let go vs. the few times that you lose a character to conflict that you personally think premature.
The trick is just adhere to your own code, and be gracious when you lose a character, because it's an absolute waste of time to get too bent out of shape when you lose a character.
There is a double-standard though, but it's a desirable one, and I think it applies to this situation particularly.
If you're playing some sort of raging chaotic slaving monster, that associates with slavers and murderers and has been involved in multiple incidents of violent evil action, I would say you've come closer to 'having earned' a FD from an opponent than (say) some adventurer who just happened to cross the wrong guy.
Although in EFU and EFUA both villains and heroes have an excellent shot of doing great deeds and being successful, and having long-lasting success, it is true that villains should be a little gentler with their opponents in terms of OOC courtesy and looking for other options than FD than necessarily their foes do, and I personally believe that is absolutely the way it should be.
At any rate, if you're frustrated about losing a character, the solution is not to BE RUTHLESS (which will get you nowhere, I'm afraid) but perhaps step back or try a character concept that isn't going to earn the same kind of ire/get involved in the same kind of intense, non-stop conflict.
Dont be rutheless,
PVP woythout FD can have long lasting impact on both parties let alone the relationship between them.
If everybody was always ruthless Foop would have been six feet under aswell at the moment.
I have gotten a whole lot of RP out of being given mercy rather then dead and it still affects the character. I think its great and should absolutly be considered where apropriate.
Besides there is so much you can do rather then just kill.
I can't believe I almost posted a reply without even noticing the tone.
Also, if you really actually want something that a character has, whether it's DM Loot or merely a highly enchanted item, and your planning on mugging them, do it with style. For example Iv'e always toyed with the concept of an "honorable" mugger, a mugger that approaches the mugee....?... and says, "That's a nice Chosen-slaying sword there, I'll give you 200 gold for it." If they refuse, let the pvp begin, and if you beat them, take the desired item and leave 200 gold on their person. It makes it hard for people to call you a jerk if you do something as cool as that.
I agree with Klairings be Ruthless. As it seems to be since my first char Ive noticed people who dont FD end up getting ganked the next day (or so).
some examples of chars I played.
Timmy Him and other gangsters of Lower subdued and robbed wizards only to get charged with attempted murder and to loose all my stuff and thrown out. and having the law hunting me when in actuality we could of fded and ended up getting more work and walking around.
My first char him and his posse had this one guy subdued.(The boss wanted to do some RP rather then just FD him their like one guy was saying.) (who through some strange ways escaped) He ended up showing up and ganking us all and almost collapsing a huge pc faction.
Their are tons of others examples.
Personally i agree with klairing on being rutheless as her char
Dr. Dragon, to be fair, a majority of your characters have been utterly ruthless.
Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm just pointing that out... Koinus Sten, Redbeard?, Ratchell, That halfling guy.... all ruthless.
I'm quite new to this server, and to be honest, permadeath isn't really my thing. I like conflict, but I hate how permadeath PvP tends to work - I've played on a lot of servers, and in my experience, the more serious death is the more metagaming goes on. It's true that on servers with mild penalties for death, it doesn't seem very "realistic," but the flip side is that characters are rarely afraid to fight "like their character" rather than "like a player playing to win."
Additionally, the cost of a permadeath environment is that OOC factors start to intrude on killing; in a "low penalty" server there's no problem with killing someone because your character would, while in a permadeath environment people (myself included) tend to make more OOC decisions. Will his "gank squad" come after me? Do I want to risk losing my character later on because I don't kill this guy? Do I want to ruin somebody's day by permakilling that character? My philosophy on permadeath affects my character's actions in ways that it would not if permadeath wasn't an option.
I'm not arguing for or against anything. I understand that this is how this server works, and if I get tired of it I'll just find somewhere else. There is, however, an undeniable propensity for OOC and metagaming factors to creep into permadeath servers, no matter how much we try and just "be our characters," and it seems like this thread is further evidence of it. I've never played on a server that has ever "solved" the problem, because you really can't - it comes with the territory.
Maybe my next character will just be a cleric of Eldath. :mrgreen:
I would advise against bring 'ruthless', which is basically taking all the sportsmanship out of a game that relies upon it very heavily to function on a communal level. However, having said that, sometimes it just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to not FD someone, from an IC perspective. In these cases, I think its equally as important as being courteous, to not be courteous. Betrayal of your own character is a greater crime, in my opinion, than making someone happy OOCly.
I feel strongly that in general we have very little problems, although it is true that people like to post about this issue from time to time, generally because they're feeling dissatisfied and want to get it off their chest.
I also feel strongly that having a PvP server is essential to our mission of telling good stories, and that the occasional OOC dissatisfaction or other issue is more than outweighed by some of the incredible satisfying and superb RP that involved player conflict/PvP.
(As a reminder, guys, dying to PvP does not necessarily mean perma-death, it is just a good opportunity for it)
If anyone has further issues or concerns feel free to PM me, but I'd rather this thread avoid turning into a place where people discuss specific incidents or past history with old characters.
Not sure this is still on topic but it seems to be the way the thread is going…
To me it’s not always a matter of perma or subdual it’s a matter of DM availability and house rules for PvP. I’m not knocking the DM’s here, I’m getting into the house rules. For instance when some new 2nd or 3rd level character starts ranting about being tougher than anybody and challenging each character that walks past them. Yeah, sure most will walk past and try to ignore their ranting but then there is going to be that 6th or 7th level character that can spank Joe Bigmouth but is not allowed to. Not to mention if they are followers of gods that are opposed. Now the 6th level follower of Tyr has to let the 3rd level Banite or Talosian live because they are not allowed to kill them due to level differences. Of course this can go the other way also and the 6th level Garagosian has to let the 3rd level priest of Tempus live. But either way you look at it, once certain pantheons have a strong foothold someplace it is highly unlikely that any of their rivals would ever live more than the length of time they can remain in hiding. To me starting a PC that is strongly apposed to a faction that has a strong foothold and a temple should be treated like a goblin or kobold. You wanted to start the PC now deal with the consequences and let’s see how long your opposing character can live without getting perma’d.
So IMO, you can’t play high-strung seriously opposed pantheons properly whether the player is a capable role-player or not and it’s nobodies fault.
I'm going to talk from experiance here. . .
I'm sure some of you remember my origonal character, Luke Danger? I litterally painted a bulls eye on his head (albiet unknowingly) and got ganked because of it. Well, needless to say I was ticked because the only IC justification I could think of was because I survived one of the major clashes in the old EfU server, but that didn't make sense because it was what, half a year later? I'll admit it, I was pissed off and had to vent a bit. Once I collected myself, I was fine. But still, it was a major disapointment for me that I litterally was being passive, and next thing I know I'm ganked. Well, I doubt it's going to matter now, so, here it is. Danger was trying to get the Greycloaks back into operation so they could take out the House Montezzi back in the old server, and I really had done little for it (there were times where I felt like I'd have to make another Paladin just to save them, damn they went south after the sound leader died (in my personal oppinion). . .). So I was ticked, but later I learned that it was because their spies were too good for me. Well, in all honesty, I asked for it because I was planning on tackling the strongest PC faction ever (Granted, they had lost a lot of their strength, as I learned later). But the thing is, even if you're passive about it (as in, you're not on the active warpath), if you plan on going up against one of the groups that are entrenched in the server, you gotta be ready to fight before you sound the horns of war.
So here's the moral of this Fairy Tale: When you make preperations for PvP, expect to be PvP'd at least one when preparing, and if you lose, you lose. Feel free to vent privately, maybe with a friend you just got dropped with, but don't send it to the players who ganked. Take a day or two, cool off, then come back when you feel ready.
Though I do frown upon ganking the weaker groups, I feel it's tasteless, especially when it's a full 6-8 against a group of say, 2-4, and that's not counting level and equipment differences.
But in the end, it's your fault for skylining yourself, so if you intend to be joining a group that'll face PvP, or have goals that will have PvP, be the hells ready to die before you make your attack, and if you're mad, log off and cool down.
QuoteIf anyone has further issues or concerns feel free to PM me, but I'd rather this thread avoid turning into a place where people discuss specific incidents or past history with old characters.
Looks like people can't abide by that, so rather than see a potentially useful thread be buried in ancient discussions about specific situations, I'm just going to lock the thread.
If there's questions just read my comments or PM me.